Suppose you’ve got yourself a pet project, one that’s very near and dear to your heart. You’ve spent a ton of time, sweat, and treasure to get this thing up and running on its own, but try as you might, it just doesn’t seem to be working out. How do you approach it?
If you’re Jim Rogers, the answer is: Cut it off, say sayonara, and let it fix itself.
Step 1: Cancel African Nations' Debt
Canceling all the African nations’ debt, he claims in “Adventure Capitalist,” will save the continent $30 billion in annual financing fees (in 2001 money). That’s of course, assuming that these nations would put those savings to productive use (instead of on things like armies, private jets, and lavish palaces—but really, who would do that?).
But ah, there’s a solution for all those wars as well, says our pal Jim.
Step 2: Redraw Borders
Simply have the existing African nations form a parliament and re-draw all the present borders, many of which were set up by the colonial powers with no idea of the conflicts that would result. No UN involved, just them. Of course, getting more than thirty nations together not only to calmly talk things out but also take action (!) makes the formation of the EU seem like a cakewalk.
Step 3: Cut Off Foreign Aid
Oh, and part 3 is that all the foreign aid to Africa gets shut off as a condition of the debt cancellation. Of all the parts of this plan, this is the one that makes most sense to me. Most of it ends up being stolen by warlords, corrupt officials, and sham NGOs anyway, which no one really contests. It wouldn’t be such a problem if we just, I don’t know, bothered to watch the money—but who wants to do that? Better to just say, “I increased foreign aid” to win votes.
Like many of the strident libertarian ideas he espouses in his book, this one operates on some generous assumptions. I admit after so many decades of frustration, the plan is appealing at least as a means of shutting up the critics who scream that Africa’s problems are entirely the fault of the West. But if Jim’s plan doesn’t work, we’ll still be left holding the chicken. Seems like a lose-lose situation, almost.
Or is this the right way to go? Is it crazy enough that it just might work? Or is something more moderate/practical the way to go?
Africa isn't fixable. Rome was more advanced 2000 years ago than the average African village today. They haven't closed the gap in 2000 years. If you can't close it in 100 generations it can't be closed.
Wow, I don't think I could agree more with this guy...
Sub-Saharan Africa at 1950-60s were at the same level as East Asia. And what about Botswana - the country is a phenomenal success minus the AIDS epidemic.
Seems like there are some racists in this thread.
Some? Heh.
Read what he said, ''average African village today'', he didn't specify. You've given a single example, good job.
Not racists, realists. This situation has been going on forever, do you seriously think it'll be considerably different in 60 years time?
This has 4 SBs?
Who the hell had heard of Japan prior to 1868? What had they contributed to society? In ~30 years, they became a world power. Just because Africa has historically sucked doesn't mean that they'll never amount to anything. They've got a lot of potential.
The main reason they're in such a shitty state is 1. corruption 2. nobody ever gave a shit about them. Europeans/Arabs just came to Africa to take slaves and resources in exchange for guns and drugs. Do that for 500 years and it's not really surprising why they're doing so shitty. Sure other places were colonized too like South America and Southeast Asia, but the difference is that the colonizers actually put effort into developing the infrastructure there (eg. Hong Kong, Singapore, India). They never put that level of effort into developing Africa. Most countries in Sub-Saharan Africa trade more with the outside world than they do with their neighbors. Why? Because of this lack of infrastructure.
Unlike what a lot of you guys seem to be suggesting, the reason for their current state isn't due to inferior genetics. If Africa can find a way to reduce the extreme levels of political corruption and solve this AIDS problem, then they will emerge as a real global player in our lifetimes. The fact that they didn't have aqueducts 2000 years ago doesn't change this.
get em
You gotta recut the map by digging a moat around each country. That would stop all of the foreign invasions. The problem with Africa is that any time anyone gets something going, some group of assholes comes in and messes it up. I'm telling you, moats is the only solution. Really, really big moats.
did someone say Kony?
This American Capitalist book must be pretty damn good
Rome was also more advanced than the average Asian (even some european) village today.
painfully dumb analogy. Some people really need to travel out of the country to get some perspective
^Bullshit, look at the difference between North and South Korea. You could've said the same thing before and now look at how political and economic institutions change the world and the country.
double
Zalachenko: Look at how the world changed as a result of the industrial revolution. Look at how Japan has grown after throwing away its inner looking attitude. Look at how China has grown by changing its political and economic policies. 60 years is plenty of time.
Re-reading these posts makes me worry for wall street, the vast majority of you guys are Sarah Palin level dumb. DUMB. Africa is less developed that Rome 2000 years ago? By what standard is that statement made if I may ask? How are you measuring this "underdevelopment"?
I'm just stunned, stunned. I thought this level of ignorance only existed in the backroads of the south.
Honestly I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll give it a swing since this is some Grade-A brainwashed gender studies trust fund white chick from the suburbs liberalism here.
How are we measuring development...you cannot be serious. The Romans had massive aqueducts that stretched hundreds of miles. They conquered most of the Mediterranean and Europe. They created a language that spawned many other languages we use today and the alphabet you use right now. They gave us the Colosseum which is 2 millenia old and still stands today and countless other architectural feats. They gave us running hot and cold water in homes as well as a sewer system 2,000 years ago, things which didn't appear in Europe again until the 1800s. They gave us the foundations of modern public law and governments (the Twelve Tables). They gave us some of the greatest leaders of all time like Julius and Augustus Caesar and Constantine. They gave us modern military tactics. They gave us western society you fucking imbecile, the type of government and life pretty much the whole world tries to emulate.
How much of Africa has running water in homes? What about an empire spanning dozens of ethnic and religious groups united under one language or leader? A sophisticated government that can collect taxes and administer peaceful rule over thousands of miles? What are some African pieces of architecture that are still standing today after 2,000 years? What African pieces of technology do we use today?
Today modern Africans stick sticks through their faces and burn people for being "witches." I would also challenge you to name a significant, relevant African (as in not based off of European or other technology) invention that we use today. Ever. Every single piece of advanced technology in Africa is because of outside influence. Literally everything.
Oh and colonialism was the greatest thing to ever happen to Africa since Europeans brought them, you know, civilization. The funniest part of African "history" is Liberia where a bunch of slaves decided they didn't like living in America with food, roads, technology, etc. anymore, and decided to go back to Africa and start Liberia (using a Western (American) flag, with a country whose name has a Latin root, and whose official language is English), which inevitably ended in two civil wars. The Balkans and parts of Asia got just as fucked up as Africa and they aren't killing each other anymore.
And do you remember the part in world history where African tribal leaders rounded other tribes up to sell them to the Europeans? Or did your professor conveniently skip that part?
You can fix poverty. You can fix political strife. You cannot fix a 20% IQ gap between races. It's no coincidence that the most advanced country in Africa is also the whitest--South Africa.
Google "Charles Darwin Africans quote." It is incorrectly attributed to Darwin but the message is perfectly clear.
Jesus wept.
I ask you - how many roman homes had this running water? How many? They built aqueducts - how many dams have been built in Africa? Romans did NOT create a language, so that's plain tosh. If they conquered places, then their language will be spoken there, just like english and french are spoken in most african nations. Law and governments- mostly copied from the greeks, same as most of roman technology. I'll agree with the military tactics.
I agree about colonialism being the driving force of civilization - you could argue the same about western europe when they were colonized by rome, which was also heavily influenced by greece and persia.
IQ is extremely culturally biased, this has been proven over and over again.
The most advanced countries in the world are also white countries, though Asians constantly outscore whites in IQ tests, can you explain that? Fool.
Dude, you're an idiot and you don't know diddly. Ignorant fool. Africa has it's problems, nobody is debating that, but saying it's never going to change is foolish. Foolish.
Darwin died in 1882 - did all knowledge end at his death?
But the world is changing once again, we'll see what we end up with in the next 10/20 years.
I like this one.Sticks through their faces? hahaha. You mean like piercings right? I'm sure there are some tattooing as well
Oh - I never mentioned the slave trade as a problem for Africa. it happened, life goes on.
Largely irrelevant; you could also argue that the Chinese are inherently unable to advance their selves given that the Chinese per capita income didnt grow AT ALL between ~1300 and the 1800s, even though they invented the compass, paper etc., though this was largely cultural and a function of the nature of their government and culture. However, Im sure we all know plenty of smart Chinese or Chinese Americans. Asians make, on average, the most of any race in the USA.
Also irrelevant. Plenty of cultures are both superstitious and successful - see how many indians abort children based on their astrology. And noone says Indians in general are dumb.
Culture isnt based in race; thats just a silly conclusion that only a really closed minded racist could endorse, and it demeans the achievements of those who created the better cultures out there, including Americas forefathers.
The Jews who came to America from Europe in the early 20th century tested significantly below the average in IQ tests. They are now amongst the highest, and produce more Nobel prize winners than most other groups. Most groups do well when they come to a place where the culture fosters stable law based in judeo-christian morality.
And don't try to tell me "oh it's the truth, I know racists in the south!", that's the same as me telling you "all black people are criminals, I know a black guy in jail!" But I'm sure you're much too level headed to say a thing like that, after all:
Take your righteous indignation elsewhere.
Aha. "Backroads of the south" NOT 15-20 states. Backroads. Do you see the difference? No? You may want to move away from finance. Your math doesn't add up.
It takes a rather interesting cynicism to attack the "victim, while leaving the aggressors blameless.
The fact that (Sub-Saharan) Africa never developed written language speaks to the fact that it was never developed.
This statement shows a profound lack of history and the evolution of writing.
Fact: Only ONE (or perhaps 2) culture ever developed written language, every other one absorbed or copied those two.
Western Europe certainly never developed written language, does this imply that western Europe was also never developed?
You are missing my point. A civilization cannot progress without a written form of communication. Oral tradition is not an ideal or generally feasible way of transmitting knowledge, so technology, philosophy, law, etc. progress very slowly, if at all.
Why stop today? If this poll had been taken say 1500 years ago, western europeans would have been on this list.
Incas were native americans, I think they did pretty well.
Jesus, there's a nice racial twist on this forum right now. Stormfront much?
I'm still waiting bro:
''Now tell me what are the concrete contributions of africans to humanity at any point in time? ''
Patrick can some of these posters get banned? Seems like a Klan rally is going on in this thread. This is wallstreetoasis, not stormfront.com
ITT we have someone who has never been to Africa, who hasn't taken a shower without running water, who hasn't had to shit in a hole in the ground and wipe there ass with newspaper, who hasn't seen a vigilant group in broad daylight kill someone chop their legs and arms off and burn them in the middle of the road, who hasn't seen the former Vice President live in a CASTLE with armed guards surrounding it and have multiple brand new Mercedes. ITT we have a retard. Traveling to Africa doesn't mean you stayed in a hotel in the capital of the country you visited where you feel as though you are still in America. It's just like saying you've seen all of Mexico when you visited Cancun. Travel to "real" Africa and you will see that many places are so far behind its unbelievable..maybe not the Romans but its pretty damn close.
Also what does advancement have to do with IQ? IQ=advance. How about you try again?
And, yes I've traveled to Africa for more than just a few days.
Africa may change one day, but it will take something extremely dramatic.
Notice zero name calling.
Shitting in a hole in the ground happens in more places than africa, try some of the arabian/asian villages.
Banditry isn't solely an african phenomenom either.
Outside a war zone, nobody is going to chop off your limbs and burn them in broad daylight, that requires some major social upheaval. They may do it at night though.
Many places in africa are behind, sure. Many places in Asia are also behind, I don't hear the unified condemnation of Asia.
Africa has many countries, some are ahead of others, it will SHOCK you how much more advanced parts of africa is than others.
IQ is partly genetic and partly social conditioning. It's also culturally skewed.
...It isn't the fact that it is happening in more places than Africa it's the fact that its happening in the MAJORITY of Africa. Where I was wasn't a war zone but good try. Have you actually been to Africa in a non tourist function?
How many black people do you know? I know loads of black people who can swim.
Africa may be a shithole but most of it is not less developed than the roman empire. If you compare ppp gdp per capita, rome would fall in the bottom third of african countries.
The most sad thing about this thread is that the revisionist PC historians do more harm to Africa than racist white folk in America. Africa can't be fixed until we have a honest discussion of why it is so behind. But whatever, if folks want to screw over Africa's future so they can feel better about their race, go right ahead.
No, no no no no. No discussion. Africa doesn't need your help. Africa has the resources, both human and natural to fix itself. Africa will have that discussion in due time.
Fuck this whole "we need to help africa and discuss what's wrong", they don't need your assistance, thanks but no thanks.
Well I'm a bit of an isolationist so I catch your drift.
Hmm. Sub-saharan africa can be divided into three, north (Sudan/Ethiopea area), middle (say within the tropics) and south. Only the north has water issues, trust me. In most of the tropics, people dig wells within a day and hit water. Most of africa is rain forest with amazing amounts of rainfall and hence, water. Trust me, rome has nothing compared to africa in terms of running water, UNLESS you restrict your studies to countries that were recently war torn. Apart from Nigeria, most countries in west africa have steady uninterrupted power and water supply, try Ghana, ivory coast and burkina faso, within the urban areas.
See, nobody is arguing about africa being more advanced, it's a fact that Africa lags the rest of the world. This is however totally different from africa lagging 0B.C Rome, that just makes no sense to me in any way or form.
God you just don't fucking get it do you. Digging a hole in the ground is not impressive. Building a gigantic system of 100-foot tall aqueducts using manual labor across an entire continent to create a running water system 2000 years ago is impressive.
According to your logic that's like saying having a fruit drop from a tree into your hand is as equally impressive as building a machine to pick the fruits for you.
It is not the Africans' fault they are dumb, their continent is/was relatively easy to live on so natural selection was slower there, less dumb people were killed off. But no amount of revisionist PC propaganda will change the fact that the average black man is dumber than the average white or Asian man. People accept racial physical differences fine (white people can't jump, Asians have tiny dicks, black guys have huge dicks, etc.) so I don't understand why mental differences are so off-topic despite their obviousness.
I can also tell from your diction that you're British or at least part of the commonwealth. It's tragic that your government/schools teach you so many ridiculous things that are demonstrably untrue, which is clearly evident in the fact that you are getting clobbered by multiple people in this debate.
And of course, you have not answered my question about African inventions, because there are none. Not one. Not in 100,000 years has the sub-Saharan African created a single thing of use for the rest of the world.
why does Asia lag Europe? Why does arabia lag everyone but Africa?
I'm not here to have that conversation, honestly I don't even have the answer.
But saying africans haven't progressed at all since the start of modern history, now that's an fallacy that's easy to discuss.
Because Islam slowed us down but we'll come back.
Who gives a shit about all of this. Like a wealthy WASP mentopr once said, the only opinion that matters is smart money and smart money (Private equity firms, multinationals, Chinese setting up shop all across Africa) is long Africa and dumb money (people who judge based on what they see on cnn/media, people who have gone to a tiny remote town and feel they have an opinion) is cynical.
Your choice!
What you, as a citizen of this world, should NOT be doing in Africa:
Kony2012 campaigns or TOM shoes feel good aid.
Anyone who thinks inherent intelligence is why certain civilizations "advance" faster than others needs to either reevaluate their motives or re-educate themselves about cultures and societies. I suggest perusing "Guns, Germs, and Steel" to get at least a base understanding of why Europeans were sailing in fleets while the Aborigines hadn't mastered fishing, trust me, nothing to do with brain-power. The distribution of human knowledge is the most important factor to societal "advancement", sub-saharan Africa was at a disadvantage from the beginning, knowledge did not travel past the Saharan as it did from the Chinese to Europe. As for the comment I read earlier on a written language, the poster was correct, written language is a key to "advancement" but it is also extremely difficult and only 2, maybe 3 times in the history of man has a culture "invented" written language. Chinese and Egyptians are the 2 that come to mind at the moment. It's sad that what looked to be a pretty good topic turned out to be a discussion on the inherent failures of Africans, or at least what people think are the inherent failures of Africans.
Another note, Nigerians who migrate to the U.S. have been documented to have some of the highest rates of college graduates/masters/ and PHDs. Give me a break with the brain power argument, I mean if you said Africans are just freaking greedy bastards that can't help but screw each other over I'd take you more seriously. The other argument is just too ignorant to handle.
This discussion is beyond funny. So we are talking about Rome, Persia etc. 500-700 years after the destruction of Rome, Europe was a total disaster. Did it come back yes, but it was a total hole then, led by the Catholic church.
This discussion for me cannot go beyond 100 years, if you present arguments from 500-800 years ago, you are really losing yourself. Was Africa a better continent than Europe 1000 years ago? Were the native in the "new world" in a better situation than Europe a 1000 years ago? Guess what native Americans don't even have a country they call home (culturally) anymore.
There are so many issues that intertwine that it would require research by Phds. We should stick to what we know (I guess what we think we know), Finance, some macro and micro economics.
As far as the question is concerned, Africa is lacking institutions, corruption is running amok, constant armed infighting and AIDS has been killing them literally the past 50 years. How can grow anything sustainable when your population dies within 40 years? All the resources are distributed to health care and the military (sounds familiar?). Europe biggest growth occur when they stopped fight each other on their own land like every 6 months, basically by fighting over the Atlantic and in the Americas. Even recent history shows us how the US became the superpower by not fighting on its soil.
I am pretty confident that as soon as they run democratic processes that are inclusive, they will pass laws and legislation that are for the good of all, not just the elite. No society can advance if only one group is moving forward; the average needs to move forward in order to stop rebellion, and political upheaval.
Societies take a ton of time to move forward, the first steps look invisible. It is like putting $100 with 10% interest. It looks immaterial now because you make $100K a year, but in 100 years, that $100 will be worth more than $1 million...it just takes time.
I'm actually working in Africa now. The place is doing more than alright and is no different to most Asian countries in the 50s & 60s. The IQ gap between the West and Africa is being bridged and I’m seeing it first-hand (not that IQ gaps primarily determine economic development). My local liaison in some remote country just completed his CPA (US) with no fails. He never went to a decent university. The average GCSE grades (UK highschool SAT equivalents) in my region are actually higher that the UK average. There’s a report I read on Kenya by some Norwegians showing a drastic IQ increase in a population (fastest ever recorded for such studies).
Africa is fucked. And it’ll be that way for a long time. But the notion that it will ALWAYS be that way is profoundly ignorant. Civilizations rise and fall. We are still a young species and there is plenty of time for things to change.
PS: A lot of ignorant and immature posts on this thread. Lost a lot of respect for the WSO community. I thought we were smarter than that. I’d advise everyone here to read Guns, Germs and Steel before engaging in a debate on race, intelligence and economic development. FusRoDah, Anomanderis et al. Please quit with the name-calling. You only embarrass yourselves.
It's also sad that a thread on "how to fix Africa" devolved into a spate of insults directed at Africans.
Again, some very small-minded people on WSO.
Oh come now Saucy, I'm the one at fault? Really?
While I appreciate your informed (though still somewhat laden with westernized bollocks - loads of Africans study strictly in Africa and are qualified) take on Africa, this rather feeble "middle-ground" that you're holding is somewhat less than appreciable. For some of us, the statements expressed on this forum are as offensive as being called the "N" word, especially when some snotty nosed kid considers that as fact. I consider that sort of thinking extremely dangerous, and I attack it with a sledgehammer.
You may have the benefit of the doubt. For a large sector of society, this sort of thinking is a hard glass ceiling on achievements and job prospects.
Regarding IQ, I simply disagree that it's an accurate measure of intelligence. Standard IQ tests are based skewed really sharply towards middle-class western values,
Incidentally, I quite agree with the OP. Africa doesn't need handouts from the west, Africa is well able to sort themselves out. Oh, and Africa is NOT fucked.
I acknowledge Africa's problems (and there ARE major problems) but I also believe there is lots of room for improvement. In fact I see Africa as the next growth region. It's rich in resources and has a great demogrpahic curve. As overpopulation sets in, Africa will be THE hotspot for resources. In the past decade, economic growth in Africa has surpassed that of Asia. It's no middle-ground my friend. I am long Africa.
As for IQ, I beg to differ. Its a deeply flawed measure of intelligence but its a somewhat viable measure nonetheless. Africa's average IQ is in fact closer to the Netherlands score in the 50s. The Flynn effect of increasing IQs (which has all but halted in the West) is likely in full swing in Africa. But like I said, IQ has little effect on economic growth. (In fact, the original report on African IQs by some academic hack in Philly had the avg at 70 which is border-line retarded. Obvious nonsense.)
Absolutely. In in fact see aid as a perverse incentive. Hand-outs are never the long-term answer to gaps in wealth/income. Yes it is. Its croynism that's holding this continent back. Have you tried to deal with governemnt officials in Nigeria WITHOUT paying a bribe?! Goddamn! Average age of Western leaders: 50. African leaders: +70. These guys (the Mugabes & Wades) are decades behind the curve. Until the power structure at the top changes, things will remain fucked. At least Malawi's president kicked the bucket. Here's hoping Mugabe's cancer kicks into the next gear. Gambia's Jammeh may be young but as an ex-military guy, we know how the story will end. Dos Santos is one of the few oldies that has goverened relatively well but his time is also up. etcLet me add that all this talk of "Africa", as if its one homogenous country, is quite misguided. Some countries like Botswana are virtual emerging economies while others like Somalia are failed states. It's different across the board. Still, as a region the outlook is very positive.
edit: godamn double-post!
I agree with the OP. Everyone needs to let Africa fix itself. Stop letting these holier than thou liberals speak at the UN with respects to what needs to be done in Africa. I mean, it is painful to watch an Angelina Jolie give her 'educated opinion' on the matter.
‘Are you are a pretty movie star, or do you make catchy 80’s songs?! Awesome!! Why don’t you tell us what needs to be done in Africa?’
Side note:
Wow- Strong racist underpinnings (Srs) ITT by a lot of monkeys (No racist). You make it appear as if Africa has not one metropolis. That everyone there walks around with plates in their lips and spears in hand. Look, every continent has its Aborigines, and Africa is no different. I just find it interesting that some people use that Africa vs. ancient Rome analogy- But, I think I can answer that question pretty easily.
Fair assessment. I still disagree with the use of the word "fucked", and I also see bribes flowing back and forth here in the US, cloaked and clothed with terms like "campaign donations" and fundraisers, so this isn't just an African thing, but yeah, I pretty much agree with most of what you said.
Someone mentioned Japan and Asia and how they were basically nothing before the industrial revolution. You need to remember that before the IR Asia had already made huge cultural and scientific contributions to the world. Africa has literally never produced a single useful thing on its own so that is why so many of us have such little faith in it.
This statement, on it's own is reasonable. It is true. My counter-argument to this statement is that prior to say, the roman invasion of western Europe, the same argument could have been made for western Europe. NOT Asia, Western Europe, you know - the area that currently leads civilization. Hell, even after the breakdown of the roman empire, most of Europe quickly receded from an organized empire into fragmentation and chaos. The baths stopped working, the roads were quickly overgrown, civilization receded considerably. This is not an African thing.
It's about closing the gap in far ranging demographic statistics that separate Africa versus the 2nd world. And the 2nd world versus 1st world.
That requires innovation. It's requires catching up to the current state of technology & infrastructure. It will then require innovating technologies in a competitive environment against the economies of Asia/Europe/North America. For example, who gives a shit if Africa has a Western 1950s style of life in 2030. By then the developed world will have synthetic organs, self driving electric cars, and large scale automation for many other daily tasks. It's about closing the technology gap - Japan did it. South Korea did it. I predict that China will do it.
Semi-nude picture of Bale from American Psycho, WITH CAPTIONS -- AS WELL AS a Tupac Shakur QUOTE. DUDE YOU ARE A FUCKING WINNER!!!!
If you had any sense at all you would have googled whether Africa, as a large continent produced something useful. Indeed South Africa has -- http://www.southafrica.info/business/trends/innovations/inventions.htm
Semi-nude picture of Bale from American Psycho, WITH CAPTIONS -- AS WELL AS a Tupac Shakur QUOTE. DUDE YOU ARE A FUCKING WINNER!!!!
I do my best.
If you had any sense at all you would have googled whether Africa, as a large continent produced something useful. Indeed South Africa has -- http://www.southafrica.info/business/trends/innovations/inventions.htm[…]
All white people. Thanks for proving my point.
Sure but then western Europe went through the dark ages and the enlightenment and subsequently the industrial revolution. Many other places have experienced similar phenomena but Africa has not. They have never had an industrial revolution, or a period of great (or any) scientific progress. There has never been a single native African philosopher, form of governance, scientific invention, or otherwise useful idea or invention in hundreds of thousands of years. Climate and opportunities for advancement is only an excuse for so long. If I'm wrong just tell me but so far I see no reason to have any faith that the tribal ways of life that are in their blood can change through any western-imposed social engineering.
The Korean people were enslaved and killed by the Chinese and Japanese many times throughout history. In the 50s they had the Korean war which split their country into two and created a bitter rivalry. 50 years later South Korea is one of the most advanced nations on the planet. So being mistreated by others in not an excuse. You may point to North Korea and how backwards they are and say it is all about government, which has a point, but North Koreans are still hardworking, industrious and intelligent despite their insane leadership.
But - why didn't western Europe go through it on their own? Why did it take the invasion of Rome and all that stuff to finally put them on the right track?
Here's the reality - outside the fertile crescent, no nation (with the exception of maybe china) has been able to evolve any reasonable quality of civilization. There are requirements to attain civilization - there must be a critical mass of humanity, there must be a preservable cash crop to support the said people regardless of the vagaries of weather change (wheat, rice), and there must be some level of variation of duties and functions.
I really am not bothered by colonization, I see it as a brilliant and quick way of pulling the backward African tribes into civilization. I have no doubt that without colonization, Africa would be much, much worse off today than it currently is. There is a price to pay for civilization, Europe paid it during the dark ages. Africa is paying it right now.
Now, we're all moderately quantitative here i believe - we can at least perform simple math, even if some of us may struggle with more advanced stuff. So let's do a timeline here if you will
Collapse of Roman influence in western Europe ~ 400AD Dark Ages ~ 500 - 1500AD Enlightenment et-al - 1500AD till today.
Collapse of Colonial empires ~ 60 years ago. A bit early to pass judgment perhaps?
One more thing - there was NEVER any single native western European philosopher before the Roman empire. If I'm mistaken, kindly inform me. Neither was there "an industrial revolution, or a period of great (or any) scientific progress. There had never been a single western European philosopher, form of governance, scientific invention, or otherwise useful idea or invention in hundreds of thousands of years. Climate and opportunities for advancement is only an excuse for so long".
Regardless of intelligence or IQ, there needs to be a certain amount and quality of infrastructure around you before you're abilities can be nurtured and come to fruition. Environment matters. No matter how good, how marvelously gifted you quantitatively, without paper to write on, books to read, and a teacher to assist, you will not crack any theorems.
Civilization is a little innovation and a bucket load of borrowed ideas.
Abdel, you need to stop. I could post pages and pages of literature here of people explaining why arabs fell from the world stage, but I find them racist and ignorant, so I won't.
But you need to stop. That man is a fool, regardless of his race or color, and I refuse to stoop to that level.
One last bro
Note to self: no more posts about Africa.
I know. I for one was hoping we could have an intelligent discussion about the region's future instead of dwelling on the continent's past. Can't wait for WSO mods.
I concur.
yup, we cain't let the truth out
Well, it certainly brings out the truth - Ignorance is a bitch
Incidentally, I actually believe this was a good post. A lot of good debate has happened on here regardless of those who were unnecessarily aggressive (yes, I admit my own guilt here).
Hey guys that should help you out a bit; check out the last question, it talks about Africa:
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/04/20/acemoglu-and-robinson-answer-you…
We need IlliniProgrammer in here to start advertising Lean Cuisine dinners to break up this crapshoot...
Indeed. I've been looking for those coupons
I can fix africa in one easy step.
I just watched the "Guns, Germs, and Steel" documentary and his argument seems legit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
[quote=JDawg]I just watched the "Guns, Germs, and Steel" documentary and his argument seems legit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel[/quote]
If the premise of GGS was true, then why would so many places that had abundances of resources, like Russia and parts of sub saharan Africa be so much less successful than places that were equally or less well endowed/difficult to cultivate, like Japan and the areas which were originally settled by US colonists?
Russia is 20 years old. Soviet Union was a superpower.
I can't speak for Russia b/c I don't know jack shit about their history. Japan was able to thrive because it borrowed things from China like culture, rice, and domesticated animals. Also keep in mind that Japan sucked until the Meiji Restoration period (1868-1912) at which point they realized how weak they were and subsequently embraced westernization and the outside world.
The documentary mentions that New Guinea has had agriculture for a long time, but its crops are inferior to those in other parts of the world like Eurasia and North Africa. Those regions had wheat and barley, which are easy to plant (throw seeds on the ground), nutritious, easy to store, and last a long time. New Guineans had Taro, which is harder to plant (have to plant it one by one), not as nutritious (specifically lacking protein), and don't last very long.
There's also the issue of domesticated animals. The only animal that New Guineans had was the pig (which was imported from Southeast Asia). Pigs can be used for meat, but they can't be used for plowing, transportation, or milk. None of the ancestors of large domesticated animals (over 100 lbs) came from Sub-Saharan Africa, New Guinea, or Australia. On the other hand, the Middle East had cows, goats, sheep, horses, etc. The Americas apparently only had the llama and that was only in South America.
Like someone else basically said: agriculture -> sedentary societies with an abundance of food -> specialization of craft -> advancement of technology and civilization.
I'm no historian and don't pretend to be educated on this topic, I'm just summarizing some of what the documentary said.
Sry, I was mad unclear, what I meant to say was Russia and the New England colonies at the time when the original colonies were being colonized.
I have NO idea what you are trying to say
well Japan had the advantage of proximity to China early in their history and the U.S. was abundant in resources to begin with, not to mention the colonists came to the U.S. with farming knowledge and technology. One has to pre-date the 1600s if one is to asses why/how Africa is behind, and GGS makes very valid points. A significant point are the barriers to the transference of knowledge, human thought works much better as a collective, because we can learn from others' mistakes. Places like the Americas that were undiscovered by China/Europe went centuries without having others' mistakes to build off of, same with the Polynesian islands, Sub-saharan Africa, and Australia. If Japan taught us anything it is that isolationism will quickly lead to one's civilization falling behind their peers technologically (HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN ASIANS ARE NATURALLY SMARTER BRO). Japan had only a 100 yrs or so of isolationism, these other continents literally went through centuries of it. Perhaps the most significant result of isolationism was the fact that farming techniques and written language (which is almost impossible to "invent") did not proliferate to these isolated regions. Without farming there is no stability, without stability there is no specialization, without specialization there are no Thomas Edisons or Washington Carvers. Without written language it is extremely difficult to build on knowledge acquired by previous generations leading to a "backward" civilization.
Proximity to China caused wars, not benefits (besides the fact that japan was isolationist for a long time and Chinas gdp didnt grow for a long time - in terms of modern japanese growth, they have not grown because of taking after the chinese model, though youre free to argue that if you want)
The US and Russia had comparable resources, though Id say America was probably more hostile and less connected to a lot of resources than Russia.
I think it was a mixed bundle. Sure there were wars, there was also a nice pool of ideas that could easily be imported and implemented
Japan's benefits from its proximity to China were realized hundreds of years ago with the spread of farming, written language, and law. When I spoke earlier I was not referring to modern growth, the prior assessment regarding proliferation of knowledge has become largely null and void in a contemporary context due to globalization. Japan's recent growth is more a testament to unity and good economic principle than anything else. As for Russia, that region has been in constant political instability and that cripples economic development.
I agree with the guy who noted what the truly wealthy people are realizing about Africa. You guys can continue to diverge into a heated race discussion but I'm looking at value.
Where was India 20-30 years ago? Africa has cheap labor an overabundance of natural resources and plenty of capable individuals. You can keep touting this racial hierarchy nonsense but the rich will ride your ignorance right to the bank as they always have.
Anyone asking why Africans and other natives who had more natural resources but did not contribute to the sciences should ask the question of why human beings endeavor in engineering in the first place. If one is abundant in food sources and the climate is livable what would have motivated these peoples to follow such pursuits?
Abdel you're rhetoric and logic was a common belief system in the Nazi eugenics movement.
Why does it need to end with blacks being intellectually inferior though? We can also say that Arabic contributions were nowhere near what Europeans contributed. And Asians contributed significantly more than their Arab counterparts but still not at the level of Europeans.
You are stating facts = you are correct.
This what life is about, a pyramid where ppl can move up & down (Nazis believed it was fixed). At present, europeans are at the top. Unless someone is dillusional, one cannot deny this.
Now, the point of this whole discussion is that, for centuries arabs were at the top of the pyramid, so were the chinese, and now europeans. However, Blacks remained at the bottom of the bottom.
Its not like I'm giving my opinion, I'm only stating facts.
Right, it is a fact that a continent with a failing union which relies on the economies of a few, and can not get its debt situation worked out is far superior to China, South Korea, Singapore, Brazil, or any of the other dozens of countries on the rise.
Sorry I'm being sarcastic; facts are not you're demented twists on realities.
And who exactly defines this grand Pyramid of important contributions to mankind? Only someone with your level of ignorance would attempt such a foolish endeavor because you have no grasp of history, philosophy or order. I stick to my previous assertion long Africa and short stupidity.
You can sit behind your computer and make fun on aborigines and loin-cloth wearing African people all you want, but if both of you were dropped in the middle of a jungle in the middle of nowhere, chances are that the dark-skinned guy would be much "smarter" than you when it comes to survival in that sort of environment. Intelligence is simply the result of years of hard work dedicated to developing a certain skillset, whether that be solving math problems or trying to survive in a jungle.
I won't be convinced that Africans are significantly mentally inferior until I see a study that shows that an African raised under the same circumstances and in the same environment as a Westerner performs worse than the Westerner. The fact that there are 100% black African people who've gone on to do intellectually difficult things like get physics PHDs at Stanford kind of hints that Africans are just as capable as their Western counterparts when given the same opportunities. I don't deny that there may be differences in mental ability due to genetics, just as there are differences in physical abilities due to genetics. I just think that people overestimate the impact of genes on mental performance because IMO intelligence is more the result of hard work than any innate genetic gift. Some people are more gifted at absorbing and synthesizing knowledge than others, but 1. the disadvantage of lacking these skills can be made irrelevant through working harder and putting more effort into learning (life isn't a fucking IQ test) 2. these learning skills can be developed.
To the cunthole who keeps throwing monkey shit at people simply because you disagree with their opinions: I hope you piss blood and die of AIDS
If I'm ignorant for stating historical facts, then you're either a dillusional person or a black person, which one is it?
Brother you have not taken any course in history as is evident from your posts. If you have then you have been done a great injustice. Opinions are not facts rofl I don't like to be trolled.
This is basically the only thing I said: africans, up until now, have contribued zero to humanity compared to other races.
Now, please, explain to me how is my statement wrong.
Oh and Jdawg, it is clearly Abdel throwing the reckless monkey shits to anyone who disagrees with him. I got one as soon as he made his next post lol.
not me mayne. Im not a hater.
So Illini, if you're reading this, is that two for one special on Lean Cuisine pot roast and mashed potatoes still available?
when I say africans = black ppl.
And again my ignorance level on this forum has been reached. Go read a book; I'm quite sure any book will contain a plethora of undiscovered knowledge that you can dwell on.
LOL @ trying to say Egyptians are Africans. Just L O L.
I'm sorry - are they not?
I don't think they apply in this current discussion, but are you really saying Egyptians aren't African?
Egyptians are Africans ignoramus. Look up the Nubians who were the legit Sub saharan Empire that ruled over ancient Egypt. Are all people on this forum this uneducated? Or do I just read the touchy subjects that have people acting on their first human emotion.
My previous suggestion goes for you, read a book.
LOL
Keep the jokes coming hahaha.
I am not even a supporter of what is going on in this thread, I just think it is always funny how people go right to the Egyptians whenever an argument like this is brought about.
Africa is a mess for a lot of reasons. I would guess imperialism and vast mineral wealth is probably a big part of it. Whenever a nation relies on minerals to fund government it doesn't need to answer to citizens. See the ME for a perfect example of this.
Imperialism fucked the country also. See the Native Americans who were a functioning civilization until the more advanced Europeans subjugated them.
Regardless, Africa will most likely limp along with small areas of growth. You are not going to see manufacturing move from China to Africa. As China gets more expensive manufacturing will either come back to North America (USA and Mexica) or automate and stay in China. Africa doesn't have the stability, infrastructure or educated citizenship that China does.
Don't see why it would be funny, since it's historical knowledge; I guess you must have a riot when someone tells you about Marco Polo's journeys.
I won't join you in speculating where the next area of growth will be since I don't pretend to be a fortune teller. I will say that you are clearly uneducated about the continent as a whole, since you have referred to an entire land mass as though it is an amalgamated state.
I don't see how you could have the gall to speak of educated citizenship when you most likely couldn't name a University in Africa or China without scrolling through google. And you clearly are unaware of the systems in place in Africa. You've been watching that CNN haven't you.
Keep eating what you're fed, you may find that you and you're African American brothers had far more in common than you first thought.
Yeah, you are right buddy. Africa is going to replace China. Sureeeee.
Man, whenever people talk about Africa there are always a contingent of people who get butt hurt.
Of course, and when we talk about the insanity of right wing USA, you're never offended.
I know how to fix Africa
I'm not annoyed at all, there was just so much misinformation in here that serious flags needed to be raised.
Also never stated Africa would replace China.
I guess Goldman Sachs is also betting on African success since it was annoyed with all the African bankers being "butt hurt" over race issues. And if you are not aware, a large part of China's success is a result of its business in Africa.
Unlike you (i assume based on your ignorance you've not visited) I have visited countries on The Continent and can tell you that the Chinese have extensive deals and contracts with the governments in Africa. The Chinese have a near monopoly on several facets of the economies in many African countries. They(China) have taken advantage of your ignorance(and in fact your money, since foreign aid and unpaid loans are actually given to these African nations and the cash then used for purchase of Chinese products) to build their global dominance.
The cheap Chinese goods have taken over the African marketplace and I wonder if even Wal-Mart's plans of conducting business in Africa could end this stronghold for the Chinese economy. But yes I'm just a misinformed butt hurt gentleman looking to rage out, don't mind me.
Wow, and how does this refute my original post or indicate a development of the economy?
China is involved with Africa because of oil and minerals. Why Africa? Because the US and Europe do not do business with a lot of the countries China does. Why? Because of human rights violations (see my original statement that countries with mineral wealth generally don't give a fuck about their people). So China turns a blind eye to these humanitarian issues and secures an energy source for its country without bumping into the USA.
This doesn't mean manufacturing is coming to Africa. Doesn't mean fundamental issues are being fixed, etc. Yes, money will come and certain countries will do better, but until you remove the corruption and human rights issues things will not get better.
I think Nigeria is a perfect example. Right in minerals and generally prosperous, they are facing all types of issues with Islamic rebels as well as environmental issues because of the oil industry.
Also, save your insults for someone else. Really just shows how upset you get for no reason. China is USING Africa just like the previous colonial powers have. China doesn't give a shit about Africa. China is there to suck the oil out of the ground and will support any dictator that facilitates this.
"he quest for key resources in Africa targets areas rich in oil, minerals, timber, and cotton, such as Sudan, Angola, Nigeria, and South Africa. Many African countries are viewed as fast-growing markets and profitable outlets for the immediate export of cheap manufactured goods, and the future export of high-end products and services."
"Scholars have argued that the PRC's supporting dictatorships in Africa is counter-productive both for long-term Chinese policy towards Africa, and to the African people. The PRC's involvement currently benefits primarily the elites, an opportunistic practice for which it has been criticized by humanitarians and others."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-African_relations
Also, no where did I ever say Africa as a whole was not going to advance or improve. I simply asserted that in the future, much like in the past, Africa will be used by various forces and continue to limp along.
But yeah, call me ignorant and other names as if you are a PhD on the subject or something.
Wow, and how does this refute my original post or indicate a development of the economy?
China is involved with Africa because of oil and minerals. Why Africa? Because the US and Europe do not do business with a lot of the countries China does. Why? Because of human rights violations (see my original statement that countries with mineral wealth generally don't give a fuck about their people). So China turns a blind eye to these humanitarian issues and secures an energy source for its country without bumping into the USA.
This doesn't mean manufacturing is coming to Africa. Doesn't mean fundamental issues are being fixed, etc. Yes, money will come and certain countries will do better, but until you remove the corruption and human rights issues things will not get better.
I think Nigeria is a perfect example. Right in minerals and generally prosperous, they are facing all types of issues with Islamic rebels as well as environmental issues because of the oil industry.
Also, save your insults for someone else. Really just shows how upset you get for no reason. China is USING Africa just like the previous colonial powers have. China doesn't give a shit about Africa. China is there to suck the oil out of the ground and will support any dictator that facilitates this.
"he quest for key resources in Africa targets areas rich in oil, minerals, timber, and cotton, such as Sudan, Angola, Nigeria, and South Africa. Many African countries are viewed as fast-growing markets and profitable outlets for the immediate export of cheap manufactured goods, and the future export of high-end products and services."
"Scholars have argued that the PRC's supporting dictatorships in Africa is counter-productive both for long-term Chinese policy towards Africa, and to the African people. The PRC's involvement currently benefits primarily the elites, an opportunistic practice for which it has been criticized by humanitarians and others."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-African_relations
Also, no where did I ever say Africa as a whole was not going to advance or improve. I simply asserted that in the future, much like in the past, Africa will be used by various forces and continue to limp along.
But yeah, call me ignorant and other names as if you are a PhD on the subject or something.
Are you a fortune teller? I certainly can not ascertain what the chinese-African framework may have in store.
I'm just putting down all the pitiful notions that people fall back to when Africa is referred to. Do i necessarily care whether African economies overpower the other nations in the world, no not particularly. I also do not necessarily care if the American economy does well.
In our current framework it is so laughable how sheep can be manipulated by racial or national allegiance, not much different than a fan loyal to his local sports team. Hey you can keep supporting if you want to but I'm on team winning. Never could support a losing side and don't see why I should start. If something is positive I'm finding it, period.
We're not saying Africa won't develop. What we're saying is, the development won't come from black ppl. It will be either whites, asians, arabs or indians who will invest there and make shit happen.
What I'm saying is why is your focus on who does the development? And what if the development indeed comes from native Africans, will you not invest?
This all reminds me of the life of a man who in my mind was the greatest mathematician of all time;Ramanujan. Self studied and trained his work was mailed to the University of Cambridge where only one man stood for him but all others thought it impossible that a native Indian produce meaningful work in the field. Hardy is now mentioned next to Ramanujan simply for discovering greatness.
These men were trained in maths and yet were foolish enough to let preconceived fallacies dictate their views. I don't give a damn where the guy is from, who invests and who makes it happen. The point is if you let that be an overarching philosophy in your life you will be doomed from recognizing your own potential reward which in the end is your decision. Again I choose winning.
Jktecon, why bother? Enlightenment can't be taught. I could name hundreds - nay, thousands of Africans who have PhDs and stuff from top US and European unis, but this won't change opinions. Havard School of medicine has Nigerians as the second highest number of foreign students (after the UK) but of course this doesn't matter. Abdel dearly needs to constantly talk down black people to make himself feel good and Ant? Now he makes me laugh. Ant should stay with right wing US politics, his knowledge of Africa is next to zero.
I have said previously and will say again - economic process is a combination of "borrowing" from existing ideas and innovating new ones. It's not creating an entire infrastructure from the start. Countries like Botswana, Swziland and Ghana have grown tremendously over the last say 20 years. Nigeria has a massive educated class. The infrastructure exists dude. Arabia and the UK are crammed with Nigerian Doctors.
This argument is structured like you have Africa as one underdeveloped area, while the rest of the world is totally developed. This simply isn't true. There are large cities in Africa better developed than many Asian towns. The gap between say, India or China and Nigeria is much lower than the gap between USA and India/China.
What is this infrastructure Ant refers to anyway?
Saepe a aut et eos veniam aliquid voluptatum. Sit quasi numquam natus et praesentium.
Aut et laborum molestiae sed quia. Esse voluptate quod iure est vel voluptas. Cupiditate dignissimos itaque ut et quo et. Tenetur architecto debitis alias aut iure voluptas.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Nemo a atque sapiente dolorum magni sint totam soluta. Omnis itaque ut nostrum eum. Reiciendis sed soluta omnis sed rem omnis. Et eum saepe nobis natus sint. Omnis aut odio quasi fugiat. Adipisci iusto id deleniti et ea dolor. Fugit consectetur non voluptates perferendis.
Totam voluptate quia occaecati consequuntur quia. Et sed reprehenderit atque perspiciatis autem quibusdam. Ut nobis perferendis eius ea corrupti. A delectus aut nostrum vitae sed. Nobis adipisci doloremque doloremque necessitatibus distinctio.
Quia id sit vitae perferendis quisquam velit. Voluptates dolorem eius mollitia iure. Consequuntur architecto dicta error eius est nobis. Recusandae nostrum culpa amet aut ea quo perspiciatis a. Vel vero porro et et. Magni molestiae quibusdam et libero atque. Quia ipsum et sed explicabo vitae.
Soluta quae iure nostrum beatae cum temporibus et. Dolores repellat voluptate et dolorem officiis dolorem placeat. Delectus odio dolor temporibus maiores enim sunt. Facilis non est distinctio nobis incidunt ad sapiente laborum. Ut distinctio nemo soluta et eaque.
Animi suscipit sunt aut expedita. Laudantium aliquid mollitia et. Exercitationem ullam ipsam consequatur delectus excepturi. Velit libero qui dolorem iusto ut atque. Et est reprehenderit ipsum. Fuga corrupti sunt sed non molestiae error maiores.
Veniam omnis labore vitae earum ut. Vero porro reprehenderit accusamus temporibus beatae. Quia consequuntur tempore id reiciendis. Rerum soluta voluptatum qui eveniet.
Ut voluptas nisi ut necessitatibus nesciunt impedit quia qui. Delectus doloribus necessitatibus voluptatem sit. Laboriosam dolorem error at.
Incidunt enim alias dolores dignissimos et ut delectus. Enim aut earum et libero eos nemo aut. Vel numquam animi et quidem ut eos ducimus.
Nihil repudiandae qui ut. Nulla recusandae voluptas expedita deserunt incidunt doloremque optio aut. Dolores est ipsum quibusdam autem corporis dolor dolore temporibus. Qui quasi officia corrupti quia. Sint maiores ducimus aperiam voluptatem quidem temporibus non nobis. Delectus nobis dolore adipisci provident sunt tempora iure. Modi non iusto harum excepturi nesciunt nihil.
Ipsam quod praesentium ipsam corporis ad. Quis soluta voluptatibus alias est. Soluta molestiae consequuntur ex distinctio. Voluptas voluptatem libero dolores quam.
Eos voluptatem mollitia et ut nam. Optio accusantium sunt quos perferendis unde. Vel omnis cupiditate consequuntur dolorem non sequi. Ut et autem cum qui. Omnis aspernatur sit veniam explicabo et. Quis sapiente ad perferendis perspiciatis debitis delectus saepe.
Natus beatae consequatur pariatur harum nam dignissimos. Soluta odit dignissimos quas et molestias vero. Delectus at dolores eos libero voluptates saepe fugiat architecto.
Exercitationem dolorem omnis ad voluptatem et et repellendus optio. Vitae deleniti exercitationem consequuntur ut. Quam aspernatur omnis veritatis quae. Nihil officiis voluptate sit aspernatur tenetur est consequatur consequatur. Adipisci saepe ut quaerat ratione animi ut minima earum. Tempore quisquam quis quaerat iusto et eius.
Temporibus earum optio sit optio a dolor. Et odit nihil et. Repellat dicta qui minus amet laborum tenetur eum. Voluptas culpa quis dolorem distinctio non facere. Enim in illo et aperiam in.
Et eius quos aut fuga ut quo nulla vero. Sit rerum ea quia explicabo rerum totam nulla. Libero laborum repudiandae qui laborum necessitatibus quia. Fuga praesentium quia commodi blanditiis quia minima.
Quo voluptate nobis sunt ullam aliquam. Facilis quidem eveniet et. Ut officia ut quos officiis. Vitae autem nemo deserunt sint aut dignissimos rerum. Autem repellendus aspernatur sunt id minus magni. Animi vel odio sint accusantium qui voluptatem reiciendis.
Quo dolorum tempora repellat. Libero incidunt cumque odio occaecati quo et voluptatem. Qui consequatur recusandae tenetur enim.