NSA PRISM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.

The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called PRISM, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.

The Guardian has verified the authenticity of the document, a 41-slide PowerPoint presentation – classified as top secret with no distribution to foreign allies – which was apparently used to train intelligence operatives on the capabilities of the program. The document claims "collection directly from the servers" of major US service providers.

I mean, we all knew it was happening, but it's fucked up having something more solid to work with.

 

What is really worrying about this is the ability for blackmail and the ruining of lives of political or career enemies.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

But, but.....terrorists. /sarc Between the trillions we spent on the "War on Terrorism" and the erosion of most of our liberties...I can firmly say that the "terrorists" won by a few orders of magnitude.

Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 

NSA has access to all sorts of records. check out this interview with a former NSA crypto-mathematician (whatever the fuck that means)

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves. - Abraham Lincoln
 

I'm having trouble seeing the logic behind the outrage.

They aren't monitoring content. But even if they are, and they probably are, why do you care? Is it a matter of principal for you? The NSA can listen in on whatever I have to say; I really don't care. Principal is supposed to stem from something. Obama said today that it is impossible to have 100% privacy and 100% security and he's right.

The U.S. enjoys incredible privacy AND security compared to the majority of other civilized nations. They must be doing something right. Americans just love to whine about 'MUH FREEDOMS.' Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of the ways in which taxpayer money is used. But I'm okay with this one.

 
Little Engine Would:

I'm having trouble seeing the logic behind the outrage.

They aren't monitoring content. But even if they are, and they probably are, why do you care? Is it a matter of principal for you? The NSA can listen in on whatever I have to say; I really don't care. Principal is supposed to stem from something. Obama said today that it is impossible to have 100% privacy and 100% security and he's right.

The U.S. enjoys incredible privacy AND security compared to the majority of other civilized nations. They must be doing something right. Americans just love to whine about 'MUH FREEDOMS.' Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of the ways in which taxpayer money is used. But I'm okay with this one.

The problem is that they can claim checks and balances all they want but everyone knows what they are really doing. The problem is they believe they are above the law. The problem is they have proven just with the scandals of the last month that they will do anything to punish those who do not agree with them. And yet you find nothing wrong with this. The fact of the matter is they constantly take more and more freedoms with worse and worse results. The Boston bombers, one of them was on a terrorist watch list. That terrorist that shot up the army base is still on PAID administrative leave while he is waiting for trial for 13 murders. The problem is every time someone finds out they are breaking the law they shout it is national security but isn't the war on terror won according to the President? You need to get your head out of your ass and look around and tell your government to get back in line before its illegal. This administration is akin to a banana republic, where those in government are above the law and are accountable for nothing they do. Take the IRS for example, they leaked confidential donor lists to groups that are on the different sides of debates in order to harass conservative groups and their donors. That is a felony, has the person who did it been arrested? No, they haven't even been fired. So before you open your mouth and let everyone know how much of a lackey you are you might want to realize that your government is bending you over and sticking it up your asshole.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
heister:
Little Engine Would:

I'm having trouble seeing the logic behind the outrage.
They aren't monitoring content. But even if they are, and they probably are, why do you care? Is it a matter of principal for you? The NSA can listen in on whatever I have to say; I really don't care. Principal is supposed to stem from something. Obama said today that it is impossible to have 100% privacy and 100% security and he's right.
The U.S. enjoys incredible privacy AND security compared to the majority of other civilized nations. They must be doing something right. Americans just love to whine about 'MUH FREEDOMS.' Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of the ways in which taxpayer money is used. But I'm okay with this one.

The problem is that they can claim checks and balances all they want but everyone knows what they are really doing. The problem is they believe they are above the law. The problem is they have proven just with the scandals of the last month that they will do anything to punish those who do not agree with them. And yet you find nothing wrong with this. The fact of the matter is they constantly take more and more freedoms with worse and worse results. The Boston bombers, one of them was on a terrorist watch list. That terrorist that shot up the army base is still on PAID administrative leave while he is waiting for trial for 13 murders. The problem is every time someone finds out they are breaking the law they shout it is national security but isn't the war on terror won according to the President? You need to get your head out of your ass and look around and tell your government to get back in line before its illegal. This administration is akin to a banana republic, where those in government are above the law and are accountable for nothing they do. Take the IRS for example, they leaked confidential donor lists to groups that are on the different sides of debates in order to harass conservative groups and their donors. That is a felony, has the person who did it been arrested? No, they haven't even been fired. So before you open your mouth and let everyone know how much of a lackey you are you might want to realize that your government is bending you over and sticking it up your asshole.

Firstly, relax.

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm talking about this particular instance. The government has done blatantly illegal things, gotten caught, and had no consequences. That's a huge problem and opens us up to even more of the same. But is what they've done here illegal? If it's not, then what's the problem?

Also, the amount of scandals the Obama Administration has been caught up in makes a Republican president pretty likely in the next term.

 
Little Engine Would:

I'm having trouble seeing the logic behind the outrage.

They aren't monitoring content. But even if they are, and they probably are, why do you care? Is it a matter of principal for you? The NSA can listen in on whatever I have to say; I really don't care. Principal is supposed to stem from something. Obama said today that it is impossible to have 100% privacy and 100% security and he's right.

The U.S. enjoys incredible privacy AND security compared to the majority of other civilized nations. They must be doing something right. Americans just love to whine about 'MUH FREEDOMS.' Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of the ways in which taxpayer money is used. But I'm okay with this one.

Government has a track record of abusing its power. Slippery slope applies. You start with them having access to that information (but not actually listening). Then major terrorist event happens and they get temporary permission to listen to whoever's phone calls they want. Then that temporary permissions becomes semi-permanent. Then it becomes permanent.

The government is a joke, and a shitty one at that.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 
Little Engine Would:

I'm having trouble seeing the logic behind the outrage.

They aren't monitoring content. But even if they are, and they probably are, why do you care? Is it a matter of principal for you? The NSA can listen in on whatever I have to say; I really don't care. Principal is supposed to stem from something. Obama said today that it is impossible to have 100% privacy and 100% security and he's right.

The U.S. enjoys incredible privacy AND security compared to the majority of other civilized nations. They must be doing something right. Americans just love to whine about 'MUH FREEDOMS.' Yeah, I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of the ways in which taxpayer money is used. But I'm okay with this one.

facepalm
 

I'm going to have to start taking blood pressure meds soon. I feel like I'm being trolled...how can you possibly even begin to rationalize this gigantic state spying apparatus to yourself? All privacy/civil rights are going down the toilet, and we have spent trillions of dollars on the "War on Terror;" a financial blow we may never fully recover from. By most objective measures the "terrorists" have won this war by an order of several magnitudes. Remember, death is not the goal of terrorism, it is fear.

Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 
DBCooper:

I'm going to have to start taking blood pressure meds soon. I feel like I'm being trolled...how can you possibly even begin to rationalize this gigantic state spying apparatus to yourself? All privacy/civil rights are going down the toilet, and we have spent trillions of dollars on the "War on Terror;" a financial blow we may never fully recover from. By most objective measures the "terrorists" have won this war by an order of several magnitudes. Remember, death is not the goal of terrorism, it is fear.

One person gets it.

"Come at me, bro"- José de Palafox y Melci
 

I'm not talking about everything, I'm just saying, I don't feel a need to get into a blind rage about the government being able to see my Facebook summer album.

Wait... nevermind. Maybe the Winter Album instead.

"If you have enough assets plus passive income to cover your personal lifestyle expenses for the rest of your life, and that money allows you to work at something you love, without concern for the amount of compensation, then you are wealthy."
 

I not usually one to browse Reddit...but this was trending in response to: "I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care?"

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1fv4r6/i_believe_the_gove…

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points: 1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people. Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person. With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad. 2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke. 3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police. You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there. 4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?" "Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail. Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons. You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors. This all happened in the country where I live. You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality. Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not? You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety? Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe? I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen. I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 

Honestly, I just keep losing respect for America as time goes by. Yeah we're all pissed off by this, yeah everyone knows they shouldn't be doing this, yeah it's just going to keep getting worse, yeah the smart ones among us keep plenty of shit off the record. Seriously, what the literal fuck: this trajectory of gov't encroachment isn't sustainable if our core values as a civilization are to be maintained.

I for one find all media guilty of complicity with the gov't and their denials are bullshit. Our politicians and "leaders" are not to be trusted. In 1944 the Feds took over America, and programs like ECHELON replaced faith in the constitution. At some point, somethings got to give.

Get busy living
 
renitent.precept:

Did anyone seriously not expect this to already be taking place?

Yeah this is what I;m surprised by... I thought it was a pretty open secret that the NSA read every email and listened to every call tracking keywords... And of course the public will never know how effective the program is and how many potential attacks it has already stopped. People need to get over it, they already have no privacy. Google stores everything you do, including every website you go to. Facebook sells all your personal info, at least the govt is using this to stop terrorists.

The real question is why the hell is the Obama white house so damn leaky?!?

 

This stuff is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. With Obamacare we just took a giant leap into fascism of the entrenched bureaucracy. We have seen what the IRS can do to private citizens that share political or religious beliefs not shared by the government bureaucrat working on the case file. Just wait until the IRS is enforcing Obamacare or when some unelected government bureaucracy denies you or a family member life saving treatment because they found out you donated money to a cause they disagree with.

That those left wing communists on Reddit would express outrage over so-called creeping fascism in national security is frankly insulting to the intelligence. It's like watching the Soviet Union square off with Nazi Germany.

 
DCDepository:

This stuff is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. With Obamacare we just took a giant leap into fascism of the entrenched bureaucracy. We have seen what the IRS can do to private citizens that share political or religious beliefs not shared by the government bureaucrat working on the case file. Just wait until the IRS is enforcing Obamacare or when some unelected government bureaucracy denies you or a family member life saving treatment because they found out you donated money to a cause they disagree with.

That those left wing communists on Reddit would express outrage over so-called creeping fascism in national security is frankly insulting to the intelligence. It's like watching the Soviet Union square off with Nazi Germany.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/24702386

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
cityknight:

http://davidsimon.com/we-are-shocked-shocked/

The hint that fascism and bureaucracy are different concepts is that they are different words. Nobody wants an ossified bureaucracy, but your hyperbole makes me sad : (

Fascism and bureaucracy are different words, and so are "brown" and "horse". For example: "I took a ride on Saturday on a brown horse." The fact that bureaucrats are un-elected, entrenched and can violate the rule of law and persecute citizens and violate their constitutional rights without any legal recourse (the IRS, for example) is pushing up pretty close to fascism, particularly when it's predicated upon the "common good" of the nation and citizenry. And if not fascism then it's some other form of dictatorship--or to put in European parlance, a monarchy with the king being the President and his henchmen being the appointed and un-appointed members of the executive branch bureaucracy. Even elected representatives can be dictators if they ignore the rule of law and violate individual rights.

What I found sort of breathtaking is that you can call my line of reasoning "hyperbole" after the last month where we've seen individuals and organizations persecuted by the bureaucracy (IRS) for their political beliefs. You don't think that's a distinct possibility with a national health care system? You don't think it's a distinct possibility that an entrenched bureaucrat with left wing or right wing belief systems would use his authority to deny enemies of his belief system the care that the political enemy or his family would need?

What the American left doesn't get with big government is that elections are fleeting--as soon as we have a Democrat President we'll have a Republican President. As soon as we have a Republican Congress we'll have a Democrat one. As soon as we have a liberal majority on the Supreme Court we'll have a conservative majority. Big government is all fine and well until the elected and unelected bureaucracy wields its power against Democrats or liberals. Big government is a problem with both the right and left, hence why the left abandoning and demonism federalism is so mind numbing. We conservatives are as morally and ethically flawed as you pot smoking, anti-American hippies, which is why big government is a mistake no matter what your political philosophy!

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/resources/skills/finance/going-concern>Going Concern</a></span>:

Lol at right wing being considered small government. Just lol.

Who said anything about right wing being small government? It's frankly hilarious / frightening that if you make a statement like "the left wing is in favor of big government", you are automatically assumed to believe the opposite (note: not the contrapositive, the opposite), that "the right wing is in favor of small government".

Both parties are big government. The left wing is just more vocal, and the right wing is just more stupid-sounding (which, if you are paying attention, leads to an obvious positive feedback loop).

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

:)

Mark ZuckerBerg: I want to respond personally to the outrageous press reports about PRISM: Facebook is not and has never been part of any program to give the US or any other government direct access to our servers [read as "we gave indirect access"]. We have never received a blanket request or court order from any government agency asking for information or metadata in bulk, like the one Verizon reportedly received [read as "while we received plenty of other"]. And if we did, we would fight it aggressively. We hadn't even heard of PRISM before yesterday.

 

Honestly, I just think it is a gigantic waste of resources. As someone else in this thread mentioned, you are more likely to die in a plane crash than from a terrorist attack. Lord only know how much funding is going to this operation. I would love to see a huge scale back in spending and government size.

 

I don't understand why people are getting so riled up about this. It's not like there's somebody in the NSA who's going to go through your personal information, there are hundreds of millions of accounts they have access to.

Yes, its creepy, but most people's information isn't even going to be glanced at.

 
Wreak Peace:

I don't understand why people are getting so riled up about this.
It's not like there's somebody in the NSA who's going to go through your personal information, there are hundreds of millions of accounts they have access to.

Yes, its creepy, but most people's information isn't even going to be glanced at.

You clearly don't understand big data technologies.

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.
 
Wreak Peace:

I don't understand why people are getting so riled up about this.
It's not like there's somebody in the NSA who's going to go through your personal information, there are hundreds of millions of accounts they have access to.

Yes, its creepy, but most people's information isn't even going to be glanced at.

Then again if the NSA is wrong 0,01% of the time it also means that tens of thousands of people are unnecessary under surveillance and may face problems because of it. Also another issue is the fact that everyone is always doing something illegal, being it something small as speeding to burglary. We are not robots. So there is always something to find that is not right.
 

Kinda expected something like this...if you use facebook itself, you're essentially done, all personal info/emotions are online. Add any email contents, and its pretty much everything. Texting databases would be the icing on the cake for intelligence officials

 

I had a law professor in university who had a great way of looking at these things. His razor for online privacy was "would it be illegal if it were mail?". As I understand it, all the NSA is doing (at least with Verizon) is monitoring who is talking to who and for how long; the equivalent of looking at the "to/from" lines on an envelope. Big deal. As long as they're not actively recording the content of the calls, that is.

Further, Its not like the government couldn't find these things out about you before; your location, your friends, what car you drive, and where you shop, are all a quick Visa subpoena away.

 
ate9ten:

I had a law professor in university who had a great way of looking at these things. His razor for online privacy was "would it be illegal if it were mail?". As I understand it, all the NSA is doing (at least with Verizon) is monitoring who is talking to who and for how long; the equivalent of looking at the "to/from" lines on an envelope. Big deal. As long as they're not actively recording the content of the calls, that is.

Further, Its not like the government couldn't find these things out about you before; your location, your friends, what car you drive, and where you shop, are all a quick Visa subpoena away.

Wrong. The surveillance is so pervasive that the Feds can read what you are typing in near real time.

Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 
DBCooper:
ate9ten:

I had a law professor in university who had a great way of looking at these things. His razor for online privacy was "would it be illegal if it were mail?". As I understand it, all the NSA is doing (at least with Verizon) is monitoring who is talking to who and for how long; the equivalent of looking at the "to/from" lines on an envelope. Big deal. As long as they're not actively recording the content of the calls, that is.
Further, Its not like the government couldn't find these things out about you before; your location, your friends, what car you drive, and where you shop, are all a quick Visa subpoena away.

Wrong. The surveillance is so pervasive that the Feds can read what you are typing in near real time.

All I'm saying is total information awareness has been a long time coming. As long as you don't put "child porn" or "death to america" in your subject line, you'll be fine.

Believe me, I'm uncomfortable with this. As a Canadian, I'm incredibly pissed off that a foreign government is monitoring my online activities. However, maybe its because I live in a socialist dictatorship that I think Americans are overreacting a tad bit.

 

We can't balance a budget. We invade countries under made up reasons. We have a tax code more complex then a rubik cube. Fuck it. Lets focus on spying on all Americans 'to prevent terrorism". Oh wait, we don't prevent it, it happens and will always happen.

How about the government focus on doing the small shit correctly before it starts collecting all of our data.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/company/trilantic-north-america>TNA</a></span>:

We can't balance a budget. We invade countries under made up reasons. We have a tax code more complex then a rubik cube. Fuck it. Lets focus on spying on all Americans 'to prevent terrorism". Oh wait, we don't prevent it, it happens and will always happen.

How about the government focus on doing the small shit correctly before it starts collecting all of our data.

I'd give you a SB but the little icon is gone

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.
 

the government has been pissing me off so much lately. the IRS thing then this... gettin real sick of it.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 
Best Response

the comments here are sadder then the story itself. the chances of getting killed by a terrorist are similar to winning the lottery and 90% of the posters here are happy to give up civil liberties for a slight reduction of these already miniscule odds. America is not a free country and its because its citizens are fat slobs who are happy to have the feds read their emails and listen to their phone calls to save them from scary muslim boogie men that they have imagined. "i have nothing to hide so why would i care"...oh my...let's at least stop moralizing to other countries about freedom if this is the accepted attitude.

 
Bondarb:

the comments here are sadder then the story itself. the chances of getting killed by a terrorist are similar to winning the lottery and 90% of the posters here are happy to give up civil liberties for a slight reduction of these already miniscule odds. America is not a free country and its because its citizens are fat slobs who are happy to have the feds read their emails and listen to their phone calls to save them from scary muslim boogie men that they have imagined. "i have nothing to hide so why would i care"...oh my...let's at least stop moralizing to other countries about freedom if this is the accepted attitude.

Stop taking my silver bananas

 

I not usually one to browse Reddit...but this was trending in response to: "I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care?"

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1fv4...

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points: 1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people. Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person. With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad. 2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke. 3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police. You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there. 4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?" "Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail. Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons. You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors. This all happened in the country where I live. You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality. Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not? You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety? Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe? I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen. I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 

I was reading this and was not too surprised; I got over this concern long ago. I am by no means an expert on the national security industry or data processing, but I almost went down that route in the past with one of the Big 3 intelligence agencies (interviewed, got internship offer, background check, everything). It wasn't for anything CS-related, but I did learn a few small tidbits at a high level about that stuff. I've also had an interest in the field for years.

The NSA, as others have mentioned, most likely does have the capability to do all this. There are pretty much two ways to access something in most cases - access it directly (e.g. username and password) or hack it. Hacking is basically where you keep trying different combinations of passwords/usernames/etc. until one clicks. The latter's success rate is mainly determined by how many combinations you can try at once - processing power, basically. The way the NSA does its job is essentially by having a shit ton of servers, so many that it can hack everything unbelievably fast. Combine this with top-notch people to write the algorithms to sift through the data (these agencies are hyper competitive), and you get a deadly combination.

Google, Facebook, Blackberry/RIM, Apple, etc. have excellent security; many corporations will use these private companies for their own internal emails and security to varying degrees. But take the sheer, raw processing power the NSA has with its servers, and it can pretty much access anything directly if it wants to. With the Patriot Act, and hearing it from some people whom I considered to be knowledgeable about it, I was shocked about it and made my peace with it sometime back. It's just a product of the world we live in, and it's something we just have to accept, I think.

Also of particular note is the sheer bureaucracy and compartmentalization of TS/SCI information and projects. The NSA is a huge organization - much bigger than the CIA in terms of personnel and budget (several years back at least) - so I'd imagine that it'd be easy to do things "off book" simply because people wouldn't be able to notice, if nothing else.

Again, I'm not an expert; this is just my opinion.

 

great post dbcoop...you are a couple of steps behind me because i have already given up caring in a serious way as our country has proven too stupid and lazy to do anything about things like this. I think the original partriot act and the second war in iraq were the last time i was surprised by anything like this...my goal is just to have enuff money spread in different places and enuff paranoia/foresight that if the above happens i can leave, thats all. convincing a bunch of dumb americans that anything is wrong is impossible because they can still watch american idol and go to walmart so everything must be fine.

 

Reminds me of the Jon stewart quote : "When the government wants to do good, their managerial competence is somewhere between David Brent and a cat chasing a laser pointer, but when it wants to flex its more malevolent muscle, it's fucking Ironman."

Also, George Orwell.

 

Absolutely no clue why anybody cares unless they've raided your house because of an email you sent. Just another reason to bitch about the government - which is completely fine because there's a million and one reasons to bitch - but it really isn't ruining anyone's life here.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
 
BlackHat:

Absolutely no clue why anybody cares unless they've raided your house because of an email you sent. Just another reason to bitch about the government - which is completely fine because there's a million and one reasons to bitch - but it really isn't ruining anyone's life here.

What about the no liquids on board of an airplane? Or the increase in security on the airport in itself. Those are all steps taken by government to somehow reduce terrorism, just like this one. Even though terrorism is not that dangerous (currently). More people are killed by air pollution every year than people get killed by terrorism in the last decade.
 
DBCooper:

Donate to the Electronic Frontier Foundation. It is easy to talk about these things and naysayers will say things like: "what can you do to realistically change things." This is one way.

https://supporters.eff.org/donate

That's probably the fastest way to get you under surveilance. I mean you must have something to hide if you support them, right?

 
Bondarb:

the comments here are sadder then the story itself. the chances of getting killed by a terrorist are similar to winning the lottery and 90% of the posters here are happy to give up civil liberties for a slight reduction of these already miniscule odds. America is not a free country and its because its citizens are fat slobs who are happy to have the feds read their emails and listen to their phone calls to save them from scary muslim boogie men that they have imagined. "i have nothing to hide so why would i care"...oh my...let's at least stop moralizing to other countries about freedom if this is the accepted attitude.

No kidding. A few days ago I was at the departure gate of Las Vegas Airport about to board plane back to the East Coast. Then some TSA officers showed up and decided to randomly select some passengers for additional questioning and carry on bag searches as they are waiting on line to board the plane (btw has anyone else seen something like this recently?).

I was not selected but they picke this short blonde girl in front of me, as well as a few other people who looked like they are more likely to belong to the IRA than any terrorist organization targeting the U.S. I was nonetheless infuriated at this intrusion. As we walked into the plane I told her and others that what the TSA is doing is utterly stupid and we should not have to put up with this nonsense. She said she doesn't mind being searched and the other victims expressed the same indifference. I couldn't believe my ears.

It is a good thing that they didn't pick on me. It was a crazy and exhausting weekend in Vegas and I was still a bit drunk so I would have definitely caused a scene there.

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.
 

I think the general consumer is much more indifferent to online privacy than the media suggests.

"My dear, descended from the apes! Let us hope it is not true, but if it is, let us pray that it will not become generally known."
 

Nesciunt quo omnis provident pariatur distinctio. Est ex ipsa ducimus.

Please don't quote Patrick Bateman.
 

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