Military Vets with MBAs Recruited Heavily

Mod Note (Andy): Best of Eddie, this was originally posted in July 2011.

Here's some good news for guys thinking about leaving the military to get an MBA: you can expect a robust recruiting environment. According to CNN, companies love former military personnel because their age:experience ratio skews much higher than private sector candidates, and they have a proven ability to handle pressure.

Vets Have Unparalleled Experience and Can Handle Pressure

"We have plenty of veterans who are 27 who have had 100 direct reports in a combat situation," says Perrine, a former Army Ranger who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. "Nobody coming from the private sector has had that kind of experience, and especially in those high pressure situations."

Investment Banks See the Value in Hiring Vets

"Military service builds a wide range of professional leadership skills that we value at Morgan Stanley," says Pen Pendleton, a spokesman for the company. "By recruiting veterans throughout the firm, we strengthen the culture and reinforce our commitment to fostering leadership, collaboration, and risk management skills."

I know we have a lot of former military guys here on WSO who can attest to the fact that their military background made the transition to banking easier. It's good to see that the banks and the major corporations recognize and value the leadership traits that military vets bring to the table.

 

If I go to officer training school after college, and serve for however many years, will the GI Bill pay for my MBA?

"Some things are believed because they are demonstrably true. But many other things are believed simply because they have been asserted repeatedly—and repetition has been accepted as a substitute for evidence." - Thomas Sowell
 

This post made my day although it will be years before this will affect me.

whitecollarandsuspenders:
If I go to officer training school after college, and serve for however many years, will the GI Bill pay for my MBA?

It depends on a lot of factors so a question like this is best suited for a recruiter.

 
laxmd08:
whitecollarandsuspenders:
If I go to officer training school after college, and serve for however many years, will the GI Bill pay for my MBA?

It depends on a lot of factors so a question like this is best suited for a recruiter.

Who will lie to you
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

I've been out too long to say for sure. Back when I was in, the Marines kinda got the shaft with the GI Bill and the total amount we could save for college was $11,800. Obviously that's not gonna take you very far. Some Army programs at the time offered upwards of $50,000 though, I think.

You just have to look at what's available now, but I doubt the GI Bill is going to completely cover grad school tuition.

 

It's things like this that make me appreciate the 'American way' of doing things. Here in the U.K., I doubt HR and senior management would care about whether a candidate was a vet or not.

 
Walkio:
It's things like this that make me appreciate the 'American way' of doing things. Here in the U.K., I doubt HR and senior management would care about whether a candidate was a vet or not.
Are you kidding?

About half the brokers/bankers running round the city are ex-Army - ex-military old boys is probably a stronger network than public schools/oxbridge etc....theres 3 from the same regiment in my company alone!!!

p.s. if i go to Iraq for 2 years do I have a chance at GS TMT?????

 

There is no doubt in my mind:

Active combat service > HYP, Top Public, etc.

What did I do in college? Played a NCAA sport, got solid grades, and lived a pretty easy life.

We just awarded a Medal of Honor for a guy who got his arm blown off while neutralizing an insurgent position.

No contest if I'm looking to hire someone.

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
veritas14:
There is no doubt in my mind:

Active combat service > HYP, Top Public, etc.

What did I do in college? Played a NCAA sport, got solid grades, and lived a pretty easy life.

We just awarded a Medal of Honor for a guy who got his arm blown off while neutralizing an insurgent position.

No contest if I'm looking to hire someone.

haha, so medal of honor winner is indicative of the quality of person in the military, the quality of their service etc. Thats like saying Joyce Meng is representative of all asian women.

Its great to hear that a lot of the guys who leave the service to get MBAs are doing well but most of the guys I know that went this route are the type of people who would have been successful anyway regardless of whether they'd done the military, mba, whatever.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
happypantsmcgee:
veritas14:
There is no doubt in my mind:

Active combat service > HYP, Top Public, etc.

What did I do in college? Played a NCAA sport, got solid grades, and lived a pretty easy life.

We just awarded a Medal of Honor for a guy who got his arm blown off while neutralizing an insurgent position.

No contest if I'm looking to hire someone.

haha, so medal of honor winner is indicative of the quality of person in the military, the quality of their service etc. Thats like saying Joyce Meng is representative of all asian women.

Its great to hear that a lot of the guys who leave the service to get MBAs are doing well but most of the guys I know that went this route are the type of people who would have been successful anyway regardless of whether they'd done the military, mba, whatever.

The point isn't that they'd be successful anyway.... it's that they are a far superior personnel choice over a non-soldier, all else being equal.

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
Brady4MVP:
blastoise:
Not to be mean mad props to vets, but I doubt they were smart enough to make it into HYP.

West Point and Naval Academy are pretty tough to get into, one tier below HYPS in terms of selectivity. But I agree with your general point.

I'm surprised that this defence even has to be made at this point. IQ's across military demographics are not so far removed from those of the general population, but the BALLS factor is definitely higher, yes? I do know that Marine OCS is populated with college grads from across the nation, Ivy's included...and more of them than you'd think.

The advantage of going through the military is that you learn discipline, can lead, and can perform under pressure: I know more than a few smart guys that can't do that......

And yeah, the Marines get dicked for funding. Think of what they could do with all of the cool toys the other branches get. "There's problems here for months, then the Marines come through and in one day, problem solved" - Army Ranger, two weeks ago, over drinks

Respect to all branches though :)

Get busy living
 
Brady4MVP:
blastoise:
Not to be mean mad props to vets, but I doubt they were smart enough to make it into HYP.

West Point and Naval Academy are pretty tough to get into, one tier below HYPS in terms of selectivity. But I agree with your general point.

Last I checked, you don't need a congressional appointment to get into HYPS

 

Two cousins of mine actually went through rotc and their 4 years after college, and the mil payed for them to go to a top public school for their mba's, on top of masters degrees they got while serving actively. On a side note, one of them actually set up a recruiting event for former military officers in tier 1 and 2 mba programs, and they have brought in a couple dozen large companies and banks that recruit from them. Guy makes some serious bank from it.

“...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” - Schopenhauer
 

Exactly what I'm planning to do after college. Wish I could do ROTC but I can't. Waiting to become a U.S Citizen and finish college. (Yes, I could go in right now as well and that would even mean I get my citizenship earlier, but I would go in as enlisted and I do not want to do that). So I'll wait the few years and go to either Army OCS or Marine OCS and do my 3-4 years.

Although I plan to go the MBA route, I am not doing this because it'll benefit my career. No one should do it for their career advancement since you might get shot or blown up in the process. I am going to do because I am a thankful immigrant and I love this country.

The Marines are fucked when it comes to funding. A person I know went into the Balkans in the late 90's and was surprised to find out that the Army was using state of the art tech whereas they (Marines) were using older equipment. I'm sure it is a similar story when it comes to college loans, bonuses and the GI Bill. But they get the most done with the least funding.

Eddie, ever heard this acronym: ARMY= Ain't Ready to be Marines Yet?

 
JamesHetfield:
Although I plan to go the MBA route, I am not doing this because it'll benefit my career. No one should do it for their career advancement since you might get shot or blown up in the process. I am going to do because I am a thankful immigrant and I love this country.
This. Nobody should join the armed forces just for a couple lines on a resume. You should enlist because you want to serve your country.
 
design:
JamesHetfield:
Although I plan to go the MBA route, I am not doing this because it'll benefit my career. No one should do it for their career advancement since you might get shot or blown up in the process. I am going to do because I am a thankful immigrant and I love this country.
This. Nobody should join the armed forces just for a couple lines on a resume. You should enlist because you want to serve your country.
Guy went to college, go officer, yes?
Get busy living
 

I worked with a guy on a deal who has a army background (VET + Harvard) and was expecting all of the above - but I was really not impressed. Like everything in life, there are always exceptions...

"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one...just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had." 'The Great Gatsby' - F. Scott Fitzgerald
 

I'm an ROTC graduate from a decent university who separated from the army as a captain with 4 years of active duty service (including one tour of Iraq) and I have had a difficult time finding hiring managers and/or recruiters in Boston who appreciate and value military service. Granted I walked out of the army and into the business world with no MBA but I feel as though I am lagging behind my peers significantly as they have been working in the industry while I was in uniform. Took a massive pay and responsibility cut that I have yet to make up...slightly disheartening.

 
weezerdog:
I'm an ROTC graduate from a decent university who separated from the army as a captain with 4 years of active duty service (including one tour of Iraq) and I have had a difficult time finding hiring managers and/or recruiters in Boston who appreciate and value military service. Granted I walked out of the army and into the business world with no MBA but I feel as though I am lagging behind my peers significantly as they have been working in the industry while I was in uniform. Took a massive pay and responsibility cut that I have yet to make up...slightly disheartening.

I am assuming this happened because you did not do the MBA thing. Any chance you might reconsider that?

 
JamesHetfield:
weezerdog:
I'm an ROTC graduate from a decent university who separated from the army as a captain with 4 years of active duty service (including one tour of Iraq) and I have had a difficult time finding hiring managers and/or recruiters in Boston who appreciate and value military service. Granted I walked out of the army and into the business world with no MBA but I feel as though I am lagging behind my peers significantly as they have been working in the industry while I was in uniform. Took a massive pay and responsibility cut that I have yet to make up...slightly disheartening.

I am assuming this happened because you did not do the MBA thing. Any chance you might reconsider that?

People really overvalue the whole military on your resume thing. I think the point of the article is that the combo of the military AND a top MBA is pretty sick. You also have to realize that people who do a top MBA from the military usually had a lot of other shit going for them ie did cool shit in the military which means they performed well, excelled etc.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
JamesHetfield:
weezerdog:
I'm an ROTC graduate from a decent university who separated from the army as a captain with 4 years of active duty service (including one tour of Iraq) and I have had a difficult time finding hiring managers and/or recruiters in Boston who appreciate and value military service. Granted I walked out of the army and into the business world with no MBA but I feel as though I am lagging behind my peers significantly as they have been working in the industry while I was in uniform. Took a massive pay and responsibility cut that I have yet to make up...slightly disheartening.

I am assuming this happened because you did not do the MBA thing. Any chance you might reconsider that?

Absolutely. I am hoping 4 years army plus 2 years corporate will put me in decent standing for a good school. I realize the emphasis is on military MBAs but I was still surprised to find an observable lack of enthusiasm/interest in the pre-MBA military vet. As someone mentioned above, a 26 year old ex-military officer with combat experience would seem like a valuable resource that could make an immediate impact but unless you have a direct line to a former military/military-friendly contact in the organization you're hosed because 99 times out of 100 a hiring manager will pick the 26 year old with 4 years in the business.

 

I went to HYP. It was a f*cking joke. Non-science classes are mind-numbingly easy. Kids get their act together for 1 month of job interviews then resume their usual lethargy. It's a 4 year circle jerk of praise about how we will run the world.

I love the credential but the education was a joke.

The military academies are disciplined, with rigorous classes and constant competition.

Then they go to f*cking WAR. Not an IBD analyst program.... they go to WAR.

F*ck, I'm soft, and so are the rest of you.

/wishes he could do it all over again

/wishes he at least did OCS one summer

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
veritas14:
/wishes he at least did OCS one summer
^ feel the same way, but not making any rash decisions.

I might do it the summer before going into MBA, just so I have two options come end of August. You can do Army up until 35. I talked to a guy that did Marine OCS at 30/31 -> MBA -> IBD assoc....it's possible if you decide you want to, and they will make exceptions if you're serious.

The only real issue is if you WANT to, everything else is whatever.

Get busy living
 

Classmate from high school went to play lacrosse at West Point... he transferred after the first semester lol

A trading firm I interned during undergrad preferred hiring vets. Had to do with their discipline, risk mgt under pressure and lack of ego.

What I will say about the military is that there is a Pareto law with regards to intelligence. I'm sure the top 5% military guys could've went to HYP. But there are a lot of numbingly brain dead bible gripping personal at the bottom of the ranks who lower the median IQ. It may not be politically correct but on average the military is not a intellectually stimulating environment.

 
Best Response
mb666:

What I will say about the military is that there is a Pareto law with regards to intelligence. I'm sure the top 5% military guys could've went to HYP. But there are a lot of numbingly brain dead bible gripping personal at the bottom of the ranks who lower the median IQ. It may not be politically correct but on average the military is not a intellectually stimulating environment.

I've been lurking on these forums for a while(almost a year) and one common theme I've picked up on is once you make it into finance, most jobs, except for the quants, don't actually require a high IQ. Most sectors such as PE, investment banking, ER, AM, VC, seem to only require an unforgiving work ethic, and in the early years, a willingness to put up with inordinate amounts of "face time" and repetitious clerical work.

Being in the military of course does not mean you have a high IQ, but the three same skill sets required for most finance jobs are the same three skill sets taught to every soldier day 1 in boot camp and then honed to perfection throughout a military career: how to maturely deal with pointless 'facetime" with superiors, how to complete without complaining, repetitious boring work that is ultimately pointless, and how to repeat these first two skill sets 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.

So sure the military is not an intellectually stimulating environment, but genius-level intellect is not required for 99% of jobs, even in finance. What the military environment does teach is how to "shut up and do your work" in any environment, and under any leader, no matter how incompetent that leader. And I would argue that most employers, even in finance, would find this skillset more valuable than genius-level intellect.

 

Excellent news. I certainly hope PE firms are included in this bunch... and if they are not, then hopefully they will be by 2013/14.

Just saw Gen McChrystal (USA - ret) speak today. Delivery and depth of his speech were incredible.

 
mozacq:
Just saw Gen McChrystal (USA - ret) speak today. Delivery and depth of his speech were incredible.
Thanks?
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

I fly f18s. I have served with graduates from 6 of the 8 ivy league institutions. When you're in the military, a degree from the Alabama community college of science and wonders holds the same weight as a degree from harvard. You distinguish yourself by your career accomplishments. I have seen some highly successful HYPS grads, but I would say that overall they fit in average to slightly below average in terms of ability. The issue is that the bad ones are so bad, they require other people to do their jobs for them, thus adding to the workload of the average officer. The really good ones excel at juggling a heavy workload, stress, and have teriffic interpersonal skills that allow them to interact up and down the chain of command better than most.

It is one thing to get in the club. It is another to belong there.

 
wannabeaballer:
I fly f18s. I have served with graduates from 6 of the 8 ivy league institutions. When you're in the military, a degree from the Alabama community college of science and wonders holds the same weight as a degree from harvard. You distinguish yourself by your career accomplishments. I have seen some highly successful HYPS grads, but I would say that overall they fit in average to slightly below average in terms of ability. The issue is that the bad ones are so bad, they require other people to do their jobs for them, thus adding to the workload of the average officer. The really good ones excel at juggling a heavy workload, stress, and have teriffic interpersonal skills that allow them to interact up and down the chain of command better than most.

It is one thing to get in the club. It is another to belong there.

Wow. You just became a hero to me. Damn man, how lucky are you to fly F-18's! I wish I could do the same and if I could, I would give up my finance career dreams in a second. How I fucking wish I was born here!

 
JamesHetfield:
Wow. You just became a hero to me. Damn man, how lucky are you to fly F-18's! I wish I could do the same and if I could, I would give up my finance career dreams in a second. How I fucking wish I was born here!

You don't have to be born here. Hell, you don't even have to be an officer (or a pilot):

http://thebutter-cutter.com/The_Flight_Of_LCpl.html

It's funny how small this world is. Foote was a legend when I went in, and every single one of us thought about stealing a plane at one time or another (I was a helicopter guy). But when I got out and became a stockbroker, one of my very first clients was the Marine JAG lawyer who defended Foote at his court martial.

 

I know I probably sound like an asshole but I'm genuinely curious as to why the military gets more respect than most other low paid dangerous jobs. From my experience, most of the people going in (grunts, not rotc or those enrolled at a military academy) do so because they fucked up earlier in life and have limited options.

Yes, it is hard work when you're in but it doesn't seem like the skills carry over all that well into the job market.

 
Edmundo Braverman:
Dude, that notion is laughable. You have no idea how much improvisation goes into surviving a war zone. It doesn't get any further "outside the box" than that.

You would obviously know better than me but isn't the vast majority of this done by commanders/leaders of some sort? My basic understanding is that the majority take orders and do what they're told.

I'm not trying to put anyone down. I'm genuinely curious.

If that much thinking is required, why do many recruiters target the lowest common denominator?

 

@ reddog - you seem to be operating under some misconceptions. It might help if you actually read anything on this post but I'll reiterate a few points. If there's further questions, you might want to just go talk to some military folk....

  • Military personell spend months or years trainging, and ONE of the components of that training is teaching soldiers how to function in a very hierarchical organization. This training does not reduce intelligence, nor does it require people to be stupid.

  • Recruiters take whoever they can get, just like any other salesman getting paid commission.

  • As for thinking on the job: like most other jobs, there's a lot of mindless shit, but for officer positions, flight, and a lot of others, there's a heavy amount of thinking going into it. Being stupid and not being able to think on your feet can get you killed. Stupid and lazy people don't get the cool jobs, or don't last long at them.

  • Many employers like vets because they tend to be more disciplined, are better leaders, and perform better under pressure. There are plenty of creative people in the military: just because they're not rebellious doesn't mean they're stupid. Again, check your premises.

  • Despite the rigid nature of the military structure, there's pleny of space for individuality. Also, a few months of boot camp do not remove a person's prior interests, hobbies, and individuality: boot camp / OSC just bring that person into full control of themself, and allow them to function in harsher conditions than civilian life.

Hope that helps, but you sound like you should get out and meet people different than yourself and get to know them. But what to I know? I'm just a little green man.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
@ reddog - you seem to be operating under some misconceptions. It might help if you actually read anything on this post but I'll reiterate a few points. If there's further questions, you might want to just go talk to some military folk....
  • Military personell spend months or years trainging, and ONE of the components of that training is teaching soldiers how to function in a very hierarchical organization. This training does not reduce intelligence, nor does it require people to be stupid.

  • Recruiters take whoever they can get, just like any other salesman getting paid commission.

  • As for thinking on the job: like most other jobs, there's a lot of mindless shit, but for officer positions, flight, and a lot of others, there's a heavy amount of thinking going into it. Being stupid and not being able to think on your feet can get you killed. Stupid and lazy people don't get the cool jobs, or don't last long at them.

  • Many employers like vets because they tend to be more disciplined, are better leaders, and perform better under pressure. There are plenty of creative people in the military: just because they're not rebellious doesn't mean they're stupid. Again, check your premises.

  • Despite the rigid nature of the military structure, there's pleny of space for individuality. Also, a few months of boot camp do not remove a person's prior interests, hobbies, and individuality: boot camp / OSC just bring that person into full control of themself, and allow them to function in harsher conditions than civilian life.

Hope that helps, but you sound like you should get out and meet people different than yourself and get to know them. But what to I know? I'm just a little green man.

There's no doubt in my mind as to the quality of military leaders. I just have a hard time praising someone simply because they were in the military.

All I'm saying is that as with all jobs, you really should look at what someone does as a part of it as opposed to giving someone who has served blanket praise.

IMO, people are way too sensitive about negative things being said about the military. Sure there are people in it who are great, but not everyone in the service lives up to the same standards.

And yeah, I probably should have read some of the other posts. and would have had it not been so long. I will if I ever have time.

 
reddog23:
I just have a hard time praising someone simply because they were in the military.
Why are you posting this on a thread about military, where a bunch of military guys are chatting, and people that like them (myself) are adding to the conversation? Are you socially retarded?

Think before you speak.

Get busy living
 
Edmundo Braverman:
I know we have a lot of former military guys here on WSO who can attest to the fact that their military background made the transition to banking easier. It's good to see that the banks and the major corporations recognize and value the leadership traits that military vets bring to the table.

This is absolutely true. I haven't made it in banking yet, but any sort of exposure and networking I've done so far was because of my past military experience. Probably should have gone to undergrad before military, but I'm not too worried. I'll let everyone knows if it works out in the future.

I think that we are all clinging to a great many piano tops...
 

I did a stint in the military after going to West Point. My take here is that everyone is slightly right.

I am shocked at the number of ex-military guys who drop an email to me or call me every week asking to get their resume into the IBD summer recruiting (associate) pool or they are looking to get an opportunity to change banks. They leverage the fact that I'm a fellow vet, but the issue is they just assume b/c they are a vet and I'm a vet that I owe them something and unfortunately, a lot of them have not developed their story/skills beyond "hey i'm a vet, don't you feel like you owe me?"

This doesn't apply to everyone, but seeing Reddog's comments and then seeing how everyone jumped on him made me think about my own experiences. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what every servicemember has done, but you're right, the rank and file and even some of the junior leadership in the military aren't as cutting edge as people like to give them credit for and don't automatically make good bankers.

This isn't the most sensitive view, but it's the truth. Military folks do something we should all respect, but it doesn't translate to banking or finance in general unless some other skills are developed.

 
Blue Baller:
I did a stint in the military after going to West Point. My take here is that everyone is slightly right.

I am shocked at the number of ex-military guys who drop an email to me or call me every week asking to get their resume into the IBD summer recruiting (associate) pool or they are looking to get an opportunity to change banks. They leverage the fact that I'm a fellow vet, but the issue is they just assume b/c they are a vet and I'm a vet that I owe them something and unfortunately, a lot of them have not developed their story/skills beyond "hey i'm a vet, don't you feel like you owe me?"

This doesn't apply to everyone, but seeing Reddog's comments and then seeing how everyone jumped on him made me think about my own experiences. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what every servicemember has done, but you're right, the rank and file and even some of the junior leadership in the military aren't as cutting edge as people like to give them credit for and don't automatically make good bankers.

This isn't the most sensitive view, but it's the truth. Military folks do something we should all respect, but it doesn't translate to banking or finance in general unless some other skills are developed.

Exactly, any large organization, even the military, will have shitty people as well as good people.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
happypantsmcgee:
Blue Baller:
I did a stint in the military after going to West Point. My take here is that everyone is slightly right.

I am shocked at the number of ex-military guys who drop an email to me or call me every week asking to get their resume into the IBD summer recruiting (associate) pool or they are looking to get an opportunity to change banks. They leverage the fact that I'm a fellow vet, but the issue is they just assume b/c they are a vet and I'm a vet that I owe them something and unfortunately, a lot of them have not developed their story/skills beyond "hey i'm a vet, don't you feel like you owe me?"

This doesn't apply to everyone, but seeing Reddog's comments and then seeing how everyone jumped on him made me think about my own experiences. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what every servicemember has done, but you're right, the rank and file and even some of the junior leadership in the military aren't as cutting edge as people like to give them credit for and don't automatically make good bankers.

This isn't the most sensitive view, but it's the truth. Military folks do something we should all respect, but it doesn't translate to banking or finance in general unless some other skills are developed.

Exactly, any large organization, even the military, will have shitty people as well as good people.

These places are all microcosms of society... even the miltiary academy (honestly, especially there) had its share of morons (i mean this as diversely as you can imagine, some academic morons, some physical morons, some social morons as well).

 
happypantsmcgee:
Exactly, any large organization, even the military, will have shitty people as well as good people.

I would absolutely love it if more people shared your attitude. It's not that the military isn't a great organization. Imo, it is, but as with everything else, it has it flaws. I just hate how sensitive people are about them being pointed out, even when the statements being made have no factual basis.

Too many people share laxmd's absolutely delusional attitude. The ironic thing is that most of the people making these statements have never even served.

This probably makes me an asshole, but I just love reading the negative reactions I get from even the most general ill informed statements.

 

Regarding guys going from military directly to business world WITHOUT MBA:

In many ways, the strong leadership and supervisory experience of vets hurts them - Fitting a former NCO or commissioned officer into a bank or regular company at the entry level is actually quite difficult. Despite what people on this forum think, analyst-level employees are slaves with no knowledge and few applicable skills. They just do grunt work and their greatest assets are their energy and enthusiasm. I personally would not feel comfortable having a former captain or staff sergeant do my bitch work. I have a 22 year old puppy dog to do my bidding. Someone in their late 20’s who has done impressive things – in the military or otherwise – is not an ideal errand boy/girl.

The basic business career path is this: You take it up the ass for several years. Over time, you develop the skills and knowledge needed to take a managerial or client facing role. Then you start pumping younger people in the ass. Military guys throw a wrench in this – they are too old , too accomplished and too respected to be errand boys. And while they have managerial and leadership experience, they lack the requisite skills and knowledge to walk in and contribute right away in a senior position.

MBA + Military makes more sense, because MBA’s are expected to quickly assume leadership roles. You also do get some basic business training while in school.

 
Buyside CFA:
Regarding guys going from military directly to business world WITHOUT MBA:

In many ways, the strong leadership and supervisory experience of vets hurts them - Fitting a former NCO or commissioned officer into a bank or regular company at the entry level is actually quite difficult. Despite what people on this forum think, analyst-level employees are slaves with no knowledge and few applicable skills. They just do grunt work and their greatest assets are their energy and enthusiasm. I personally would not feel comfortable having a former captain or staff sergeant do my bitch work. I have a 22 year old puppy dog to do my bidding. Someone in their late 20’s who has done impressive things – in the military or otherwise – is not an ideal errand boy/girl.

The basic business career path is this: You take it up the ass for several years. Over time, you develop the skills and knowledge needed to take a managerial or client facing role. Then you start pumping younger people in the ass. Military guys throw a wrench in this – they are too old , too accomplished and too respected to be errand boys. And while they have managerial and leadership experience, they lack the requisite skills and knowledge to walk in and contribute right away in a senior position.

MBA + Military makes more sense, because MBA’s are expected to quickly assume leadership roles. You also do get some basic business training while in school.

Couple of things: almost no former officers bother with entry level jobs, it happens but you just don't see it often. How about guys with work experience that then go into the military? I and several guys finishing up our first two years would like to know.....

College -> 2 or 3 years experience -> military -> work/grad school. We all know the grad school route is good, but what about if they come out of the military with prior finance experience. How would they place?

Get busy living
 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/resources/skills/finance/buy-side>Buyside</a></span> <span class=keyword_link><a href=https://www.e-junkie.com/ecom/gb.php?ii=1145861&amp;c=cart&amp;aff=44880&amp;ejc=2&amp;cl=175031 rel=nofollow>CFA</a></span>:
Regarding guys going from military directly to business world WITHOUT MBA:

In many ways, the strong leadership and supervisory experience of vets hurts them - Fitting a former NCO or commissioned officer into a bank or regular company at the entry level is actually quite difficult. Despite what people on this forum think, analyst-level employees are slaves with no knowledge and few applicable skills. They just do grunt work and their greatest assets are their energy and enthusiasm. I personally would not feel comfortable having a former captain or staff sergeant do my bitch work. I have a 22 year old puppy dog to do my bidding. Someone in their late 20’s who has done impressive things – in the military or otherwise – is not an ideal errand boy/girl.

The basic business career path is this: You take it up the ass for several years. Over time, you develop the skills and knowledge needed to take a managerial or client facing role. Then you start pumping younger people in the ass. Military guys throw a wrench in this – they are too old , too accomplished and too respected to be errand boys. And while they have managerial and leadership experience, they lack the requisite skills and knowledge to walk in and contribute right away in a senior position.

MBA + Military makes more sense, because MBA’s are expected to quickly assume leadership roles. You also do get some basic business training while in school.

You are spot on. I've experienced everything that you described here (minus the a$* pounding) in some form or fashion during my transition. I am a commissioned officer who separated as an O-3 and even after two raises and one promotion I still routinely do work that would make the newest cherry 2LT cringe. The corporate system is not set up to receive officers/NCOs without and MBA and place them in meaningful jobs.

I wish I had reached out to some recently separated officers and asked what the right play was at the end of active duty. At the time I felt that getting experience in finance under my belt would be more beneficial than an MBA with no post 911 GI Bill to fund it. I could not have been more wrong. Knowing what I do now, I would have studied my a$s off in Iraq, crushed the GMAT, and walked straight from the army base to the college campus. Hoping this is worth it in the end, kind of a kick in the nuts at the moment.

 

Hey UFO:

My comment was directed at the guy who went from military > business w/o an MBA. I think military +business experience or an MBA would be a pretty lights-out combo. There aren’t a lot of data points out there as far as leaving the business world for the army, and then coming back. I would have a hard time making a generalization.

 

Interesting perspective Buyside.

Has anyone ran into many prior enlisted that went on to finish their undergrad degree then enter finance?

As a former junior NCO, now finishing my undergrad, I'm interested in hearing the different thought on this. I see many former officer --> MBA types that have been successful, but not many enlisted. Maybe this is because most people who enlist are lacking the academic requirements to succeed in finance. I was rather different in that I would have gone to West Point had it not been for some complications in my medical history (it didn't stop me from enlisting; paperwork error, really). My desire to serve and fight just happened to be much higher than my desire to stay in school.

I completely understand how I would be less desirable for an analyst program as I am very different than most 22 year old graduates. It doesn't necessarily seem like entry into an MBA program after graduation would make much sense either.

Any thoughts?

 
Ranger375:
Interesting perspective Buyside.

Has anyone ran into many prior enlisted that went on to finish their undergrad degree then enter finance?

As a former junior NCO, now finishing my undergrad, I'm interested in hearing the different thought on this. I see many former officer --> MBA types that have been successful, but not many enlisted. Maybe this is because most people who enlist are lacking the academic requirements to succeed in finance. I was rather different in that I would have gone to West Point had it not been for some complications in my medical history (it didn't stop me from enlisting; paperwork error, really). My desire to serve and fight just happened to be much higher than my desire to stay in school.

I completely understand how I would be less desirable for an analyst program as I am very different than most 22 year old graduates. It doesn't necessarily seem like entry into an MBA program after graduation would make much sense either.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts:

You can go to MBA straight from undergrad. Some people do it who have no work experience whatsoever. You may or may not get into a top 10 program but you don't need a top 10 program to get into finance. As long as you are going to a school that has any kind of presence on Wall Street you can use that as a foothold at various institutions then really lean on your military network. I think this route makes more sense for you in the long run. Happy to exchange PMs if you want to discuss further. You will come out of b-school and go into banking as an associate at approximately the same age (give or take a year or so) as you would hav ebeen if you had done analyst to associate out of undergrad without going to the Army.

Assuming you're in the 3-75 and you have done well, you can always tell your story that you have demonstrated excellence in the Army by being in that unit. This story is easily enough to get you into b-school and enough (Along with decent academic performance in b-school/GMAT) to get you into finance.

 

I did enlisted service prior to college. It will be different for you, in that you will be a college kid applying for analyst jobs and competing with other college kids.

My advice is to make sure you get a degree from a real school. Don’t fuck with Devry or U-Phoenix like a lot of servicemembers. Get out and go to a real college, even if it’s a state school. Work hard to get internships while you are in college.

If you were close to getting in West Point, I assume you had good grades and SAT’s. You may be able to get into a top notch school like Harvard or Princeton, given that you also are an Army Ranger.

I think you will do fine. My comments above were directed at former officers and senior enlisted people trying to get entry level jobs without MBA’s. I don’t think you will have an issue as long as you come out of a legitimate college. If you go to a top notch school, you will get just about any job you want.

 

I think the major problem is that civilians don't effectively differentiate between different jobs and branches in the military. Nothing against soft skill MOS's, but they largely attract a different kind of individual than combat arms and special operations units would, at least on the enlisted side. There are of course exceptions to this; i.e. any job that requires a high level of intelligence, like intel.

While you may not have to have a very high IQ to be infantry, to be successful, especially as a leader, it requires a high amount of intangibles that are lacking in society at large. These become even more prominent as you advance to specialized units.

There are many individuals who enlist just for the benefits, take the easiest job possible, and perform on par with the clerk at the local DMV. Once you weed through to the high caliber individuals, though, the intangibles that are developed through combat and leadership are incomparable, IMO.

 
Ranger375:

I think the major problem is that civilians don't effectively differentiate between different jobs and branches in the military. .

I think you nailed it on the head, Ranger375. Making overarching generalizations about an organization with ~1.5 million active duty members is like saying "everyone that works at GS or JPM has X qualities", lumping in janitors and mail clerks with IBD and other FO positions.

But with this said, I find myself shaking my head at some of the ignorant stereotypes that have embedded themselves in America's psyche post-Vietnam, which have come to light on this thread. The fact of the matter is that everyone that is currently serving in the US Armed Forces willingly enlisted during a time of war. Everyone joins for different reasons, but if you can make one generalization it is that an individual has to possess certain intangible qualities to make this decision. Sure there are outliers, but the vast majority of those that I served with had more integrity and character than I have seen than their civilian peers, I think this is due to the caliber of people that the military attracts. This isn't 1969, there is no draft, and the old "go to jail or join the Corps" ultimatum is more of an urban legend than anything. In fact, the requisite qualifications for joining the military are actually more stringent than many occupations (i.e., high school diploma and clean criminal backgrounds are mandatory). I cringe when I hear "people join the military because they were to dumb to go to college", because in my mind this statement should be flipped, "why DIDN'T you serve your country before going to college". I'm currently attending an ivy league university with a large veteran undergrad contingent, and can say that these people were NOT too dumb to go to college, and in fact do as well if not better than their civilian peers academically due to both those intangibles that led them to join and the skills they sharpened while serving (work ethic, attention to detail).

As far as actually breaking in to the industry, my advice to other vets is to utilize the network of vets in finance. Unlike BlueBaller, most vets that have made it are happy to pay it forward and at least lend some advice about how to develop their story and skills, instead of dismissing them as feeling entitled to a handout.

 

This thread's from nearly 2 years ago guys.

WallStGrunt0311:
Ranger375:

I think the major problem is that civilians don't effectively differentiate between different jobs and branches in the military. .

I think you nailed it on the head, Ranger375. Making overarching generalizations about an organization with ~1.5 million active duty members is like saying "everyone that works at GS or JPM has X qualities", lumping in janitors and mail clerks with IBD and other FO positions.

But with this said, I find myself shaking my head at some of the ignorant stereotypes that have embedded themselves in America's psyche post-Vietnam, which have come to light on this thread. The fact of the matter is that everyone that is currently serving in the US Armed Forces willingly enlisted during a time of war. Everyone joins for different reasons, but if you can make one generalization it is that an individual has to possess certain intangible qualities to make this decision. Sure there are outliers, but the vast majority of those that I served with had more integrity and character than I have seen than their civilian peers, I think this is due to the caliber of people that the military attracts. This isn't 1969, there is no draft, and the old "go to jail or join the Corps" ultimatum is more of an urban legend than anything. In fact, the requisite qualifications for joining the military are actually more stringent than many occupations (i.e., high school diploma and clean criminal backgrounds are mandatory). I cringe when I hear "people join the military because they were to dumb to go to college", because in my mind this statement should be flipped, "why DIDN'T you serve your country before going to college". I'm currently attending an ivy league university with a large veteran undergrad contingent, and can say that these people were NOT too dumb to go to college, and in fact do as well if not better than their civilian peers academically due to both those intangibles that led them to join and the skills they sharpened while serving (work ethic, attention to detail).

As far as actually breaking in to the industry, my advice to other vets is to utilize the network of vets in finance. Unlike BlueBaller, most vets that have made it are happy to pay it forward and at least lend some advice about how to develop their story and skills, instead of dismissing them as feeling entitled to a handout.

I think Blue Baller's posts on the matter were pretty insightful considering he is a vet AND has gone through the MBA process AND has been on the hiring end getting contacts from vets looking to get into finance. He clearly has completed more of the cycle than you. Snide ending comments trying to paint him as an asshole just because he believes in looking at cases on an individual basis make you look like an asshole.

People don't join the military because they are dumb. Valedictorian of the high school class before mine got a 2370 SAT before going to college and then the marines. They do, however, often join it because they either can't afford college coming out of high school or they need an organization to help give them direction. Many people don't join the military PRIMARILY to give back to the country. This is a secondary reason that sounds a lot more admirable than the likes of "I don't know what else to do" and "The military will help me pay for college."

On a philosophical level, if my sole reason for joining the military was to serve my country, I wouldn't get my britches in a wad over not getting special treatment for that service. If you have an expectation of getting special treatment because of your service, then it's not really service is it?

So my overall point, and why I liked Blue Baller's posts, is that it should be about the individual and his accomplishments in the military rather than a blanket glorification of literally every person who has in any way shape or form served in a branch of the military.

Disclosure: I am not pursuing IB or an MBA and my sample size is only the enlistees and vets I have known (~10, including 5 in my family) and the ROTC at my college.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we’re in like a dirty shirt.
 

I just recently finished Restrepo. If i was an MD i would recruit anyone that fought in the Korangal Valley, holy fuck.

Here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half hour at the table, you are the sucker.
 

I think people are giving reddog way too much shit, considering all his arguments have been pretty rational. Speaking from experience, most people in the military come from low income, non-educated backgrounds. What other test is there that you can get a 30 out of 100 and still pass? Most of the people in the military are on cruise control, there isn't that much in the way of danger for a majority of armed forces. Sure there's a couple of people on the front lines, but that is a minority and it's not like an actual war. Looking at most conflicts that occur now, they're vastly different from world wars, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

Although the officer pool is somewhat different I've met my fair share of idiots and I do work for the Navy's nuclear power program, so these guys are suppose to be the brightest. I've met plenty of guys with liberal arts degrees who are quite slow and struggle the entire time throughout the program. Being in the Military alone shouldn't mean you're a step above the rest, but if you're a vet with a solid leadership background, a top MBA under your belt and some good internships then I could see why you'd be sought after.

Adcom likes Military because it's another group that they can diversify with. Whether you're a minority, woman, man, white, Military, legacy...it's all about being the most diversified.

 
CypressLB:

I think people are giving reddog way too much shit, considering all his arguments have been pretty rational. Speaking from experience, most people in the military come from low income, non-educated backgrounds. What other test is there that you can get a 30 out of 100 and still pass? Most of the people in the military are on cruise control, there isn't that much in the way of danger for a majority of armed forces. Sure there's a couple of people on the front lines, but that is a minority and it's not like an actual war. Looking at most conflicts that occur now, they're vastly different from world wars, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

Although the officer pool is somewhat different I've met my fair share of idiots and I do work for the Navy's nuclear power program, so these guys are suppose to be the brightest. I've met plenty of guys with liberal arts degrees who are quite slow and struggle the entire time throughout the program. Being in the Military alone shouldn't mean you're a step above the rest, but if you're a vet with a solid leadership background, a top MBA under your belt and some good internships then I could see why you'd be sought after.

Adcom likes Military because it's another group that they can diversify with. Whether you're a minority, woman, man, white, Military, legacy...it's all about being the most diversified.

Completely unrelated to this entire topic, but if all the target schools are so noble that they're trying to create this great learning experience, diversify their class, provide opportunities to URMS, make the world a better place then why do they work so hard to attract IB firms to recruit there and why do they allow all of these extravagant events with GS/MS/DB to take place? They market themselves as schools that cater to future industrialists and business leaders but are in reality just IB/MC trade schools (and they probably don't care, seeing how fervently these firms recruit through OCR).

 

Something of note based on my experience. By and large the military guys at top schools are not just a guy that was in the military and that got him in. Almost everyone I know at school that is military was special forces and/or went to a top tier undergrad, either westpoint or another top school. You'd be surprised how many ivy / near ivy caliber kids go military, then special forces for that matter. So its not like some kid from some random horribly ranked undergrad just gets into a top tier mba. There are only so many military spots to begin with and thousands of guys in the military - they compete against themselves for admission and for jobs.

 

Some Random Thoughts:

  • In the Marines, I was performing work that would be most equivalent to VP/Director level in a bank or corporate environment. The experience doesn't directly translate and almost no company is willing to give you the level of responsibility that you are used to having. Most recruiting for military is either lip service with a really small portion of hires being veterans or you will be pigeonholed into a less desirable role (ops focused).
  • You are stuck in a place where if you desire to be an analyst people will look at you funny due to your past experience and they are too scared you will leave if they hire you but you don't have enough experience to come in at a higher level (for experienced hire associates/vp positions) and can't compete with the pool of experienced candidates.
  • You will get zero breaks if you think you are going to go from from vet -> MBA -> PE .. it isn't going to happen in this economy. There have been too many rounds of layoffs and there are a lot of candidates with actual relevant finance experience that will compete with you and you don't have the technical skills.
  • You are blackballed from a number of environments.. I haven't gotten a callback from one startup that I have applied for employment. They are turned off by your background and don't think you will fit in or deliver value.

I have two combat tours in Helmand and have done some amazing things but an MBA on top of this experience isn't the golden path some would have you believe.

 
fuquamarine:

- You will get zero breaks if you think you are going to go from from vet -> MBA -> PE .. it isn't going to happen in this economy. There have been too many rounds of layoffs and there are a lot of candidates with actual relevant finance experience that will compete with you and you don't have the technical skills.

Almost no one gets PE, vet or not, but vet -> mba -> IB is pretty easy in my opinion. At my school all the military guys that recruited for IB got it, around 7-10 guys in total. Their recruiting process was a lot easier in my opinion as well.
 

Yeah, I'll agree if you go through the on-campus pipeline and are a summer associate it's easy and a less rigorous process compared to the average student candidate. But you are talking about maybe the top 10-15 schools each which have a veteran population of less than 3-5% who are afforded that opportunity.

ke18sb:
fuquamarine:

- You will get zero breaks if you think you are going to go from from vet -> MBA -> PE .. it isn't going to happen in this economy. There have been too many rounds of layoffs and there are a lot of candidates with actual relevant finance experience that will compete with you and you don't have the technical skills.

Almost no one gets PE, vet or not, but vet -> mba -> IB is pretty easy in my opinion. At my school all the military guys that recruited for IB got it, around 7-10 guys in total. Their recruiting process was a lot easier in my opinion as well.

 

Agreed with fuquamarine, you aren't going to get a PE gig unless your dad knows someone. IB, consulting, and GM are the easiest ones, with the largest pipeline. Trading obviously. Anything else, well good luck. Restructuring might give you a look. If you're at the right school and lucky, AM/ER could happen. HF/PE, not going to happen.

 
Outsider:

go blow up some civilians abroad, come back looking like a tough guy and bully your way to a top mba or ibanking position, that sounds like a very legit path to me

lol...Sorry for partying!

Compensation is not commensurate with education.
 

Being from Canada, I don't have the same perspective on Military culture as in America, but I really respect a lot of the attitudes towards those who have given to a cause much greater than the themselves or the next bonus number. Wars will always be horrific, and should be avoided at all costs, but the servitude towards society exhibited by those who choose to serve their country should be held in the highest regard. Because of this, I do not see a problem with a degree of preferential treatment for vets in the recruiting process. They have earned a qualification above and beyond what many of us, even from the best backgrounds, will ever have.

 

I would just view it as equivalent to work experience. Just like working a SA stint at Goldman does not entitle you special treatment, neither does being a veteran. It is merely another qualification for the job.

 

I would be very surprised if these guys with "100 combat situations" actualy ever fired a bullet at someone, not to mention hitting the target.

You killed the Greece spread goes up, spread goes down, from Wall Street they all play like a freak, Goldman Sachs 'o beat.
 
wannabeaballer:
Arti:

I would be very surprised if these guys with "100 combat situations" actualy ever fired a bullet at someone, not to mention hitting the target.

SURPRISE!

This is mostly ignorant speculation:

1) it depends on the branch and what they were doing. Apache pilot? Yeah, they probably killed people. Infantry officer in OIF/OEF? Good chance they had an opportunity or did kill someone.

2) Officers are not the primary people that should be pulling a trigger. This goes back to general ignorance that the population has on all things military, but the leader isn't the one that should be focusing on shooting. This has changed some with COIN operations and smaller teams fighting in the streets, but the leader's job is to lead and to think tactically about the situation. It's tough to be shooting and thinking.

3) I find it hilarious that so many non-military people on this thread think they have value to add because they watched Apocalypse Now.

On a side note, if we want to make broad generalizations:

  • The guys you will see in your MBA class will be former officers or current officers getting a degree to go back to a service academy to teach. You MIGHT see one enlisted, and they will be extraordinary. (e.g. graduated from Harvard and a recruiter somehow tricked them into becoming a private in the Marines instead of an officer)

  • Like I said before PE/HF is usually not going to happen for military unless they have connections. IB or consulting for military seems to be quite easy to get. Same with S&T.

  • The primary skill set is general management. Comparable to a guy coming up through GM/GE. Military can expect to relearn from the bottom in a new industry: FIRE, tech, etc. I don't expect to be able to strongly leverage my military experience in the first few years.

 

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