So, Who Went Shopping On Thanksgiving?
There was quite a bit of furor against a number of retailers last week, especially online. One particularly searing campaign mimicked a Black Friday Sale poster to read:
“50% Off: Materialism! Consumerism! Plus, get an additional 10% on our Special Offer: The Things You Own, Owning You!”
Target, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and several other large retailers took the unprecedented step of opening at 6pm EST on Thanksgiving Day. Presumably, this was to squeeze as many sales as they could out of Black Friday weekend.
Their reasons are well-documented: they anticipate weak holiday sales (due to the age-old, but never realized, fear that “the consumer is tapped out”). They also believe that since there are “fewer holiday shopping days” between now and Christmas, folks won’t be inclined to spend as much.
Regardless of their reasons, I think opening on Thanksgiving was a huge mistake.
Not least because Thanksgiving has traditionally been time for non-essential personnel to take a break, have a feast, and spend some time practicing the World’s Greatest Lifehack, which is being grateful (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/the-worlds-greatest-lifehack). Apart from the Fourth of July, it could be the most unique American holiday of them all.
Notice the key word: NONESSENTIAL personnel. Selling you a 70” flatscreen is not an essential service, no matter how much you want it.
Part of me argues that, yes, shoppers are given a choice by the retailers’ being open: stay home and feast with family and friends, or go out shopping (and I’m sure some people chose the latter). Though I might find that choice distasteful, it’s really none of my business if people would rather shop.
But the other part of me feels for the people who have to bolt out the door halfway through their turkey and stuffing to work the sales floor (a million Wal-Mart employees had to be at work that night). I realize some of them don’t care that it’s a holiday, but many others simply don’t have the option of refusing, not if they want to keep their jobs.
To be fair, many other retail outlets kept their doors shut on Thanksgiving (Ace Hardware, Costco, and Home Depot were among them). Ace Hardware made its view as clear-cut as it could: “Some things are more important than money.” And they’re right in the sense that each of us is more than just what we produce, which is something Thanksgiving crowds are apt to remember.
Though I’ve never participated in Black Friday and my perspective is quite different, maybe you guys can set me straight. How many of you have ever worked on Thanksgiving? Are we really better off by encroaching on one of our holidays? If yes, would you be okay with working on Christmas? Labor Day? Fourth of July?
Or am I right in hoping that most people stayed home, and that this “Gray Thursday” business turns out to be a huge flop so it doesn’t happen again?
I've worked 2 black friday's at Toys R Us and I have to say, those were the best days I ever worked there. in Just those two days I put in 36 hours, but it felt like 4. It's a great place to people watch that's for sure. I didn't have to work thanksgiving as toys r us was still closed that day and opened at 4 am friday when I worked there. My thanksgiving dinner is at 3PM for my whole life, so if I had to be there at 530, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me.
Now, even more so that my family out here in NYC consists of my Fiance', me, and our dogs, working thanksgiving wouldn't be a big deal either.
This year we went out shopping since we had thursday and friday off at 630pm because sephora opened at 6. (Lucky me) We mainly just wanted to go to Macy's. We didn't even really want anything that was part of the black friday deals. We just went because it's fun.
I wouldn't ever work on Christmas though. That's an off limits family only time. Labor day and 4th of july are pretty much just reasons to party, so if I couldn't it wouldn't matter either way.
There are dozens of industries in which work on Thanksgiving is natural, if not essential. Movie theatres, for instance. Your selection of a job is about more than just pay and trajectory, it's also about demands, work/life balance and personal sacrifices. Different people place varying emphasis on career attainment, and that, for the most part, is the prime allocator of holiday hours.
I don't think any philosophical debate is required. Let people make their own decisions.
Agree, right next to the 2 stores my wife went to were a Walgreens and a Grocery Store that were open all day, nobody had an issue with that.
My wife and her mom went shopping around 9pm on Thanksgiving, after we were done with family stuff and our little guy was in bed. It was actually nice because it freed up our Friday to spend more time with family.
In my mind a 9pm shopping trip on Thanksgiving>5am on Black Friday any day.
I've been becoming more and more disgusted with this country lately. Gray Thursday only contributes to this disgust. I'm sorry I ever served for this country. Black Friday isn't even the biggest shopping day, so why stretch it out into a family holiday? I love capitalism, but Gray Thursday is retarded yet somehow successful. When I say successful I mean it attracted shoppers to come to stores earlier than ever, I don't mean it increased sales. 'Murica
The real question is. Who would rather shoot themselves than shop on black Friday.
There's actually a word for black friday shoppers...sheeple.
That is easily the most congenial way I'd describe it.
Saw the Macy's NY Thursday night opening on TV- 15,000 people rushing in to the store, pushing and shoving etc. Looked absolutely horrible. Shit, nowadays you can get similar stuff for similar prices online right before Thanksgiving or during it/the weekend. Much more relaxing.
So glad I don't work in retail anymore. My first day on the job last year was on Black Friday. Absolutely horrible.
Definitely did not do any shopping to try to get the big deals Thursday night or Friday morning.
Here's the thing, though: one big shopping day does not a season make, and one season does not a whole year make. The hype is undeserved, even if it is a "fun tradition" for some people/sheeple.
That is not entirely true. There are a lot of businesses where end of the year holiday shopping is a huge percentage of their yearly total and really do make or break the whole year. That said, I am with Northsider in that I personally don't like opening on Thanksgiving (unless it is like at 10pm), but businesses have to do what they think they have to do to survive. Sometimes you need to open just so you capture all that impulse buying,
I have done a few black Friday sales and a lot of times I bought stuff that I originally hadn't planned on getting, but picked up while in the store because it was such a great deal. Maybe its the hour or the coffeebuzz, but I am no where near as weak with impulse buying as on Black Friday morning. I am just one person, but multiply me by a few million and that can start to make a difference in a companies bottom line---and the 30-50 million Americans who went out on Thanksgiving have clearly voted.
The term black Friday comes from accounting. This was traditionally the time of year that retail companies finally turned a profit for the year based on projections. So it literally means the day the year is made positive.
People are going to do what they want, but I don't bother with Black Friday or any of the other schemes designed to get people to spend lots of money. In fact, I just go to the mall etc to watch people acting badly. It's pure entertainment. As for Thanksgiving shopping, I kind of pity anyone that needs to put shopping as a priority over family time, and I kind of question why any company would encourage people to. There's only a few days a year where I know lots of family/relatives will be in one place, so I kind of look forward to that. Everyone's different I guess.
@Gekko21 @heister : I didn't say it wasn't profitable for them--it is, or stores wouldn't do it. Only that the media handwringing over holiday sales is overwrought and doesn't spell doom for the economy. These sales are known about well in advance, and online retail is also plenty strong.
I find it funny when people feel the need to inform others how their behavior is merely the successful exploitation of capitalist puppet masters. Why it is that some journalist has a more educated opinion on the rationality of another's behavior is unclear. So to is their desire to share that opinion.
People are not sheep, they do what they enjoy - even if that isn't "optimizing behavior". Just because they aren't following the your narrow prescription for rationality (strict observation of the most ridiculous American holiday, cash-maximizing, price-minimizing, etc.) doesn't mean they are, indeed, "irrational".
That's not what makes them irrational. It's the fact that they're willing to literally kill each other for a new laptop that they're buying on their already nearly maxed credit. It's the completely inhumane manner in which they crowd themselves in front of doors at 4am so they can buy worthless shit. There's no dignity left in this world.
I have no problem with capitalism or "conspicuous consumption", but the fashion in which people lower themselves to such great depths for such pithy pleasure is just beyond me I guess.
I just object to the self-aggrandizing tone here (and, more broadly, in this thread). What makes the things you purchase any less worthless? What dignity is there, truly, in us debating on an anonymous web forum; each trying to convince another person we will almost certainly never meet?
Most of these comments just feast on the absurdly sensationalized stories on the frontpage of CNN.com depicting the most outrageous things that occurred on Black Friday. If reading articles about frantic shoppers on Black Friday is the operating definition of "dignified", I'll pass. Dozens of people are murdered for ludicrous reasons every day, should it surprise anyone that, on the day when most people leaving the house are going shopping, one of those murders occurred in a mall?
There is no reason to feel superior to the people you're calling "sheep" here; your life (and everyone's life) is, I assure you, equally as meaningless, undignified, ridiculous and mundane. It's just less "news"worthy.
Went to Wal-Mart for ~20 minutes on Thanksgiving to get out of the house, just grabbed a few $4 Blu-Rays and went home.
@NorthSider : Out of curiosity, why do you find Thanksgiving ridiculous?
Because it is ridiculous! We're literally commemorating (or, more aptly, whitewashing) the mass genocide of Native Americans after pillaging their harvesting techniques. We're pretty much the only country in the world that celebrates such a silly occasion.
Mostly, I just despise that self-fulfilling smirk people get as they impassionedly feign gratefulness for this and that, as if we have even the remotest concept of how fortunate our society is. Less than a third of Americans hold passports, and the overwhelming majority that do have never stepped foot outside of the Western world. It's so laughable to watch them pretend to be thankful.
Let me be clear: my thankfulness is no less ridiculous. The incomprehensible poverty in Africa today, and that of hundreds of generations before us, is beyond conception. I will never know that life, I will likely never even approach it for more than a few days.
I'd just prefer that we not have a holiday to highlight how wealthy, ignorant and ungrateful we all truly are. It just makes us look so silly.
Humans in general are greedy and selfish by nature. It's a survival instinct that we really can't control. Thankfully technology has evolved enough that we don't have to resort to killing others for self - preservation, but at certain points in history that was a reality. Acting like we're any better or different now is pretty silly to me. Our whole culture is built upon competition and and glorifies people who do what is necessary to succeed -- often at the expense of others. The private equity industry as we know it today was built on hostile takeovers and loading businesses up with debt while cutting cost structures (read: jobs) to pay down that debt quicker so a few people at the top could get ridiculously wealthy. Kravis is a legend today for doing just that. Yeah, he didn't kill anyone, but in the days of the Pilgrims doing that wasn't all that out of the ordinary and probably seemed necessary to ensure their long term survival and prosperity here in North America. Just because we don't usually go around killing groups of people anymore doesn't mean that we're necessarily all that different or better than the Pilgrims and I think remembering that is fairly useful.
I don't know about you, but anyone I've ever spent Thanksgiving around only says they are thankful for the family and friends that surround them. That's literally the only thing I've ever said I'm thankful for on Thanksgiving for as long as I can remember. And I'm no less materialistic than anyone else out there.
Maybe we are wealthy, ignorant and ungrateful, but luckily we have the freedom and ability to be wealthy, ignorant and ungrateful. I'm surely thankful for that and will never apologize for it.
Maybe I'm connecting dots that are way too far apart, but there are people that would prefer I don't drive Maserati because it highlights how much wealthier, successful, and frivolous I am than them. Should I refrain from buying a Maserati because it hurts their feelings? I don't think so even if I look silly to someone else. So why should we refrain from celebrating our right to be ignorant, self - involved assholes? Because we look silly to people in Europe or Africa?
In the actual long run (the life of our planet) my life will be no more or less insignificant than the life of a random person in Kenya, Barack Obama, or George Clooney. At the end of the day we're all going to meet the same fate and we can't take our possessions, good deeds or our loved ones with us so I think the best way to make it through our years here is to be selfish and ignorant. It's all going to end the same way regardless anyway.
Technology has not "evolved" to that point for the overwhelming majority of Sub-Saharan Africa. People die of common colds, polio is still diagnosed, malaria kills thousands, childbirth is incredibly risky, life expectancy is lower in several countries than it was in the U.S. at the turn of the 20th century. People murder, loot, embezzle for the sake of very survival; goats are valued higher than human children. Statements like this are precisely what makes Thanksgiving so ridiculous. Your dismissive tone here ("mass imperialist genocide by the powerful over the weak was the result of 'unevolved technology'") just underscores my point.
Am I seriously reading this correctly? You're comparing KKR buyouts to the imperialistic European raping, pillaging and mass murder of a helplessly underdeveloped and defenseless race of people.
What in god's name are you talking about?? In what sense did the colonization of the New World and mass genocide of hunter-gatherers by Europeans with metal weaponry, vast wealth, agricultural production, etc. "probably seem necessary to ensure the long-term survival and prosperity of North America"?
Native Americans literally fed their impending murderers until they no longer needed their help. At that point, the Europeans simply wiped the map clear of the indigenous population. Similar senseless and unnecessary slaughters can be observed throughout the Americas. See Pizarro's conquest of Cajamarca in 1532, where 168 Spanish cavalry massacred an army of 80,000 Incans in a matter of hours, then come back and remind me how their deal "probably seemed necessary to ensure the long-term survival and prosperity" of the Americas.
These statements are intractable! We have the "freedom and ability" to be wealthy, ignorant and ungrateful? What does this mean?
Purchase whatever luxury goods you want, it doesn't make you any more or less frivolous than the next person. But don't turn around and through a party about how "thankful" you are for your possessions or loved ones or whatever is the topic of the dinner table. You haven't a care in the world when you drop more money than a family of 5 in Uganda would make, collectively, in the lifetimes on a shiny car with leather seats and a big engine. Quit patting yourself on the back for your "gratefulness" and go back to researching your next indulgent purchase. At least be honest about it.
I'm a capitalist if there ever were one. I don't buy Maseratis, but I do purchase plenty of completely unnecessary products that make me feel more comfortable in life. But, for the life of me, I do not feel compelled to take holiday in celebration of how humble I truly am; how cognizant I am of those abstract "less fortunate people". Nothing could more prominently highlight how ignorant I am.
Isn't being selfish and ignorant the opposite of Thanksgiving?
I don't know if you know this, but people die every day. Life isn't fair and sometimes people don't get a fair shake. Natural selection is real and we as humans have become smarter and stronger over the generations because of it. Does that mean I think we should ignore the people in Sub- Saharan Africa or that I don't feel for their plight? Not at all. But, I also don't think we should feel like we have to stop being thankful for what we have just because someone is worse off than us.
If the situation in Sub - Saharan Africa is so terrible in your opinion what have you done personally to fix the problem? Have you written a check to the Gates Foundation or gone to Africa to administer polio vaccines?
Just because I disagree with your statements doesn't mean that I have a dismissive tone (whatever that means) or that I don't care about people. Not that it matters, but last summer I actually went to Sub - Saharan Africa to help those less fortunate than me. I also run a small not for profit too and wrote a fairly large check to the Philippines Relief effort about a month ago.
What in god's name are you talking about?? In what sense did the colonization of the New World and mass genocide of hunter-gatherers by Europeans with metal weaponry, vast wealth, agricultural production, etc. "probably seem necessary to ensure the long-term survival and prosperity of North America"?
Native Americans literally fed their impending murderers until they no longer needed their help. At that point, the Europeans simply wiped the map clear of the indigenous population. Similar senseless and unnecessary slaughters can be observed throughout the Americas. See Pizarro's conquest of Cajamarca in 1532, where 168 Spanish cavalry massacred an army of 80,000 Incans in a matter of hours, then come back and remind me how their deal "probably seemed necessary to ensure the long-term survival and prosperity" of the Americas.
I didn't get my point across very well on these so I'm just going to cede them because it's not worth it.
We're afforded the opportunity to amass wealth. We have the opportunity to get an education in order to acquire a lucrative career and our laws do not generally restrict anyone from starting a business in order to make money.
Our Constitutional rights and laws in the United States give us the freedom to be ignorant and act ungratefully if we so choose.
Maybe having the opportunity to become a wealthy, selfish person and the freedom to be ignorant an ungrateful don't sound like the recipe for a great society, but it's a whole lot closer than the alternative of not having any of those freedoms.
Why shouldn't I throw a party about how thankful I am if I want to do that? Who are you to tell me that throwing a party for whatever reason I want is wrong?
I don't own a Maserati -- it was an example. Honest about what? My choice of vehicle does not hurt a Ugandan family of five in any way, shape or form.
My gratefulness has nothing to do with my material possessions. I'm grateful for the opportunities I've had to acquire those material possessions. And the one part of my response to you that you didn't quote happened to be my statement about what I'm really thankful for on Thanksgiving -- my family and friends. If being thankful for those close to me and taking a day to celebrate with them makes me ignorant than so be it.
Thanksgiving is about giving thanks for what is important to you. They can give thanks for what is important to them in whatever way they see fit.
You think Thanksgiving is ridiculous and I respect your right to believe that. But, do you do everything in your power to help those less fortunate than you? If not, you should refrain from judging the way anyone else chooses to live their life or celebrate a holiday until you're without flaws. So someone celebrates their material possessions on Thanksgiving while there are starving kids in Africa and you don't. Maybe that person gives a larger percentage of their income to charity than you do. Which one of you is less ignorant and selfish? Who are you to judge a person on what they do one day a year?
Glass house.
Either I'm not communicating straightforwardly, or you're wildly misinterpreting my points (understandable, because most people vocalizing the points I'm making are trumpeting Western Guilt).
I am not anti-capitalist, anti-consumerist or anti-wealth. I do not despise extravagance, I do not oppose materialism. On the contrary, if you'll remember, my original post was in defense of what many others in this thread have deemed "consumerist sheep". And if you've spent much time reading around, you'll recognize that I am, if anything, the most ardent Libertarian capitalist on this board.
I have been to Sub-Saharan Africa, I've taken courses on development economics, read books on African politics, etc. That said, I am fully conscious that, other than assuaging my own conscience, my presence there in aid camps was utterly useless. Foreign aid is unbelievably wasteful and almost entirely unhelpful in combating poverty; thus, I do not donate to international aid-focused charities and will not in the future. No matter how often I visit Sub-Saharan Africa, no matter how much "aid" work I perform, I will never be able to comprehend that level of abject poverty. Neither will you.
I do not claim to be charitable, and I am most certainly not suggesting that the solution to Western ignorance is to throw excess disposable cash into charitable organizations and volunteer for the WHO in Ethiopia. Neither does that eradicate poverty nor does it make the donor more "dignified".
My point, from the start, has been solely that Thanksgiving is ridiculous. This inane aside was the product of my response to your absurd suggestion that the European massacre of Native Americans was due to "unevolved technology" and "probably seemed necessary for North American prosperity".
Other than commemorating our slaughter of indigenous Americans, the only other plausible explanation for Thanksgiving is as a reminder of how "fortunate" and "grateful" we are for our possessions. And, in that case, it's woefully ironic to observe the world's wealthiest society travel at great expense to their home towns, stuff their faces with globs of food and gloat about their career success to their extended family in the name of "giving thanks".
As a global citizen, the spectacle of American Thanksgiving is just embarrassing.
If you want to have an annual "round up the family and feast" holiday, more power to you. This contrived festival celebrating imperialism and feigning gratitude is - I'll say it again - ridiculous. It's so induces eye-rolls that I insist on traveling overseas every year to avoid participation.
I'm not "better than you", I'm not "more charitable", I'm not "more globally conscious", I'm not "more in touch with poverty", I don't "donate more of my time". I, like every other Western citizen, am utterly spoiled by education, employment, infrastructure, etc. relative to billions of other people. The difference is, I don't pretend to be able to comprehend that fact, and I try to avoid celebrating how savagely successful our civilization has become (in this particular instance) at the expense of indigenous people. Especially under the guise of "being thankful".
I suppose I was misinterpreting your points.
I agree that western aid to other parts of the world is largely useless, but still donate for personal reasons that aren't really relevant to this thread. And those reasons have nothing to do with my conscience.
I do not consider myself particularly charitable and my intent in disclosing some of my charitable activities was not to tout myself as more dignified or anything other than a guy who gives some of his time and money to others.
This is where I really don't understand your position. You boycott the opulent show of wealth and gluttony on Thanksgiving in the United States by employing your wealth to travel overseas for pleasure? Likely to a tropical resort or other location where good food and drink are available in copious amounts. That seems like an odd way to denounce the opulence and gluttony of Thanksgiving.
I don't pretend to comprehend the struggles of other people either and I certainly don't do near as much as I could to help others. I just find it logically inconsistent that 364 days a year it is OK to benefit from our exploitation of the native americans, but god forbid you give thanks for those benefits on that 365th day. To me that's equivalent to saying it's ok to steal from people and use the ill gotten gains to improve your situation as long as you don't tell anyone about it. But, hey, what do I know?
I'm not saying it's acceptable to steal from people (though you seemed to have a host of rationalizations, which I found absurd, for this particular theft in previous posts). I'm contending that it's pretty ridiculous to throw a nationwide party to celebrate that theft, pretending all the while to be thankful for what you stole.
Q.E.D.
It's called an analogy, bro. I was not insinuating that you actually think it's acceptable to steal from people just like I didn't directly equate a KKR buyout to the mass genocide of the native americans.
I'm contending that it's pretty ridiculous that you have a problem with Thanksgiving because it celebrates "how savagely successful we've been at the expense of the native americans" by flashing our opulent wealth and gluttony while you jet off for a long weekend to be a "citizen of the world" which basically means that you're trying a lot of good food and drink.
I didn't steal anything. And if making the flight from the South to the Midwest so I can sit at a table with my parents and brother or my girlfriend, her parents and two sisters and look them in the eye when I say that I'm truly thankful that we're all alive and relatively healthy makes me ridiculous than I'm guilty, I guess. But again, I find it utterly hilarious that someone espousing how much he detests the gluttony and opulence of Thanksgiving escapes the travesty by hopping on a plane for an international vacation.
Although I think my last post closes the door on this debate, you have uncanny persistence re: this notion that I'm "anti-wealth" or "anti-opulence" or "anti-consumerist" despite my repeated attempts to convey that I neither hold these beliefs nor do they have any relevance to my opposition to Thanksgiving. I mention this only because I find it hilarious; in my many days, no one has ever accused me of not capitalist enough, so this truly is a first.
I encourage you to read go through my comment feed on any post that sounds even mildly political on my history and revisit the aforementioned contention.
Short of that, I'd love to hear @duffmt6 's reaction to the statement, "NorthSider is ethically opposed to the extravagance and excess of our distasteful capitalist society."
I assure you that I am many, many, many multiples more pro-capitalism than anyone in this thread - so believe me when I say: anti-extravagance has nothing to do with my statements herein.
EDIT: In fact, delightfully, I found this nugget from my post that ignited this entire firestorm!
See Pizarro's conquest of Cajamarca in 1532, where 168 Spanish cavalry massacred an army of 80,000 Incans in a matter of hours
[/quote]
Not to split hairs, but this statement is grossly inaccurate.
And I can't quote properly
@In The Flesh : I guess if you think about it, what holiday we have isn't ridiculous? Christmas ---> Man in big red suit breaks into your house and leaves presents under a conifer tree. Easter --> Large rabbit hops around leaving colored eggs for you to find.
@wallstreetoasis
What is the deal with the comment removal stuff? Are you considering it clutter or what? I dont really give a shit about the quoting stuff but am curious about the other.
@NorthSider : Ah, well I'm a Wikipedia using simpleton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca
Killing 80,000 with 168 seemed a little ridiculous; as in, put's the Hollywood movie 300 to shame, ridiculous. Especially in hours! Even if they fought for 12 hours straight, that's like 40 Incans per hour, per soldier. Idk though
Seems grossly overstated. The guy that survived trumped up the accomplishment after the fact? Thats never happened before.
It's not. Corroborated by multiple eye witness accounts and - obviously - by the massacre of an entire civilization that we know existed. A testament to how much more powerful horse-back warriors with metal armor and swords are vs. malnourished, defenseless Incans.
I mean, of course they didn't strike down every last one of their 80,000 foes (in what kind of battle is that necessary/practical?). They killed many, many, many thousand Incans, captured their leader, killed his deputies, slaughtered their civilians and raided their town in a single night. An army of 80,000 was swiftly defeated will tens of thousands of deaths and wounded, the others saved only by the cover of nightfall. There was clearly no need for this senseless massacre, and that demonstrated my point. Hence, my mention of it.
How does any of this tie to shopping on black Friday?
As Anihilist already pointed out, there are two separate arguments here:
1) Thanksgiving is ridiculous (which I agree with) 2) People aren't ridiculous, ie sheep (which I disagree with and that in itself is ridiculous on multiple levels)
In other words pretty much everything is ridiculous...Q.E.D.
My point on this topic is that the condemnation of "ordinary people" (key in when people start talking about how superior they are to "laypeople", you are about to read a bunch of nonsense) for participating in Black Friday sales is just plain silly.
Might I recommend:
You are Not So Smart by David McRaney
You assholes are ruining my left over turkey!
Sorry pal...wait till Christmas, maybe you'll get some more.
You guys successfully turned this thread into a dumpster fire.
@heister : Yeah, genocide tastes delicious, doesn't it?
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