The Feeling of Dread

You guys know what feeling I'm taking about. This is how you feel when you get rejected. But not by a girl, or by a social group, but by a firm.

And maybe some of you don't know what I'm talking about, because the road was a little easier (i.e. you made the right moves during undergrad and everything worked out pretty smoothly). But for every one person that nails everything and is the model Summer Analyst, there are a bunch of folks who have graduated and are trying to break in off-cycle, or are from non-targets, etc etc etc. These guys really get to befriend the feeling that is getting rejected.

It's Monday morning...you wake up early, 7am or so, to prepare some cold e-mails, knowing that if they hit the person's inbox right at 8:00am, they're more likely to be seen. Maybe you've even queued those messages up the night before, but that's only for the truly hardcore. Tick tock, tick tock: 7:55. Almost time to rally the troops. Tick tock, tick tock: 8:00. But wait! You're not 100% sure if your e-mail is grammatically perfect or if you spelled everything correctly -- better re-read it (for the thousandth time) REALLY quickly before mashing that "Send" button. Tick tock, tick tock: 8:03. Sent. Sigh of relief, despite the fact that you wanted to have the timestamp sit at a perfect 8:00 instead of 8:03...but you'll live.

Okay, the above is obviously somewhat satirical, but this has become the reality of my Monday mornings. I draft up a bunch of e-mails, send them, and wait. Sometimes I'll close my computer and refresh the Mail app on my iPhone, sometimes I sit in front of the computer waiting. You could call it obsessive, but I don't have much to do aside from writing for WSO, so it's easy enough to wait patiently while browsing various websites and figuring out my plan for the rest of the day.

You guys know how it is though, most of the time you don't get a response. And when you do, even though you've asked the person to meet for coffee, they'll often say "too busy, let's speak over the phone". Great, now you have to not only make your case over the phone (something I am markedly worse at), but you don't get the added benefit of meeting the person face-to-face and having them _actually_ remember who you are.

But let's assume they meet you for coffee. Great. If you live in their city, more power to you; in my case, I gotta drive almost 4 hours round-trip for every informational interview. You meet up, chat for 20 minutes, they like you, there is some rapport, and they give you the golden message: I know we're off-cycle right now, but we might be looking for someone...get in touch with me again in a week or two and we'll know more.

You're excited...this is the opportunity you've been waiting for! You prematurely think that this road is finally coming to a close, that all the interview preparation you've done, the blood, sweat, and tears you've poured into this endeavor might produce something: a first-round interview, which of course you'll ace because you've spent hundreds of hours self-studying certifications and reading Rosenbaum & Pearl.

Good. Just in case, you read the book again, go over your fit questions while you're showering (your parents and siblings think you're nuts because you talk to yourself in the shower), get a haircut, etc. You're ready. The point at which you need to reach out to your contact comes around, you pick up the phone or draft an e-mail, and....

and...

"Hi John Doe, we are not currently looking for full-time Analysts. Best of luck in your search. - David Dow"

Enter the worst feeling on earth: that feeling of dread.

Okay off-cycle friends, you all know this feeling all too well. It's pretty demoralizing. You met up with the person, they said they liked you and wanted to help you out, and at the end of the fight, you get an e-mail that looks like the above. This is the juncture at which people who REALLY want it are separated from people who are just kinda sorta trying. You either get emo and depressed about being rejected, or you get back on the horse -- but in either case, no one wants to read that type of e-mail.

Off-cycle monkeys (I know there are a lot of you out there) -- how did you deal with this? How did you follow up? What kept you motivated when things started to look pretty bleak? Did you end up breaking in?

I want to hear about your experiences and how you battled through them. I think we could all stand to learn a lot from this thread. Thanks for reading.

Until next time! Stay classy WSO.

 

it sucks. and the reality of life is that most of us 99.9% will not get in despite our efforts and we will end up working in some type of support function possibly moving to a manager role making around 100K for the rest of our lives. you could do an mba but then would the 200K+ cost (all inclusive) be worth satisfying what will probably be a 1-3 yr banking stint where you're nearing 40 yrs of age have other expenses and debt from family etc. and will have to start over looking for the next gig. idk but i wish i could start over again.

 
orangejulius:
it sucks. and the reality of life is that most of us 99.9% will not get in despite our efforts and we will end up working in some type of support function possibly moving to a manager role making around 100K for the rest of our lives. you could do an mba but then would the 200K+ cost (all inclusive) be worth satisfying what will probably be a 1-3 yr banking stint where you're nearing 40 yrs of age have other expenses and debt from family etc. and will have to start over looking for the next gig. idk but i wish i could start over again.

You will work some type of support because of your defeatist attitude. You're in your 20s for fucks sake. You think you're stuck at this 100k threshold for life because you didn't get an investment banking front office position out of college? Fucking negative Nancy.

 
orangejulius:
it sucks. and the reality of life is that most of us 99.9% will not get in despite our efforts and we will end up working in some type of support function possibly moving to a manager role making around 100K for the rest of our lives. you could do an mba but then would the 200K+ cost (all inclusive) be worth satisfying what will probably be a 1-3 yr banking stint where you're nearing 40 yrs of age have other expenses and debt from family etc. and will have to start over looking for the next gig. idk but i wish i could start over again.
Yeah dude I gotta say that's a little weak. 99.9%? Riiiiight...
 
orangejulius:
it sucks. and the reality of life is that most of us 99.9% will not get in despite our efforts and we will end up working in some type of support function possibly moving to a manager role making around 100K for the rest of our lives. you could do an mba but then would the 200K+ cost (all inclusive) be worth satisfying what will probably be a 1-3 yr banking stint where you're nearing 40 yrs of age have other expenses and debt from family etc. and will have to start over looking for the next gig. idk but i wish i could start over again.

the reality of like is 99.9% of the people trying to get into investment banking really don't know what it's truly like. It's not some promised land...you can be successful in a whole variety of endeavors in a whole variety of ways. There are different paths. If you REALLY REALLY want ibanking, do all of your homework so you are SUPER prepared and then network hard for 1-2 years. I don't know how you COULDN'T get in if you do that, at least at a small regional boutique.

the reality is it's much easier to SAY you want something and that life sucks, but it's much harder to put in the work every single day to improve your chances of reaching that goal.

once you reach a basic level of intelligence, what really oftentimes separates the "targets" from "non-targets", the students with high GPAs vs low GPAs is that the targets/high GPA kids usually worked harder earlier. If you want it that bad, it's time for you to outwork John Doe 3.8 GPA, HYP, valedictorian of high school...if you aren't willing to outwork them now, why should a bank choose you when they have a huge crop of prescreened candidates at their disposal (basically why there are "target" schools in the first place)?

illini makes the argument that a bank can find better talent at larger state schools if they put in the time...I happen to agree with him. There are bright people everywhere (and morons everywhere) but it is on you to convince them that you are worth to hire when you are missing some other strong signals that employers still use to save time.

make your case and then you have a shot.

 
WallStreetOasis.com][quote=orangejulius:
illini makes the argument that a bank can find better talent at larger state schools if they put in the time...I happen to agree with him. There are bright people everywhere (and morons everywhere) but it is on you to convince them that you are worth to hire when you are missing some other strong signals that employers still use to save time.

make your case and then you have a shot.

I've never thought about this before, but I think it's a good point. Some of the smartest people I've worked with in software dev were from state schools...I think mostly because they weren't ultra-privileged and knew what it took to get to a higher level (i.e. they could work hard all the time). If you go to a good state school (UIUC, UNC, etc.), it really comes down to what you make of the experience -- you can jerk around and take easy classes, or you can push yourself and make it happen in the future. If you go to HYP, you're just entitled, and not necessarily smarter than the hard-working kid in Chemical Engineering at University of Colorado - Boulder.
 

Stop being such a little bitch. Get real with yourself, identify where you are lacking and work on fixing that. If you had bad grades, review the stuff you need to know so that your bad grades aren't also a marker of ignorance and laziness. Get familiar with Excel and get into a habit of being productive during the day. You wouldn't feel so rejected if you thought about what are particular business' needs and how you can meet them and then selling your services instead of selling yourself. This isn't a pageant, you are judged first and foremost on whether you can get shit done. "Will this person make my life easier by taking off some workload or will this person make my life harder by fucking shit up and being a whiny little bitch who thinks that waking up at 7 am is an achievement in and of itself?"

TL;DR: be useful, don't be a whiny bitch

More is good, all is better
 
Best Response
Argonaut:
Stop being such a little bitch. Get real with yourself, identify where you are lacking and work on fixing that. If you had bad grades, review the stuff you need to know so that your bad grades aren't also a marker of ignorance and laziness. Get familiar with Excel and get into a habit of being productive during the day. You wouldn't feel so rejected if you thought about what are particular business' needs and how you can meet them and then selling your services instead of selling yourself. This isn't a pageant, you are judged first and foremost on whether you can get shit done. "Will this person make my life easier by taking off some workload or will this person make my life harder by fucking shit up and being a whiny little bitch who thinks that waking up at 7 am is an achievement in and of itself?"

TL;DR: be useful, don't be a whiny bitch

Whoa bro, chill. This post is aimed at people who have tried very hard to make amends for past "mistakes" but continue to come up short because they're not at the right place at the right time. Yeah it's a grind, and I think everyone realizes that.
 
Vontropnats:
Argonaut:
Stop being such a little bitch. Get real with yourself, identify where you are lacking and work on fixing that. If you had bad grades, review the stuff you need to know so that your bad grades aren't also a marker of ignorance and laziness. Get familiar with Excel and get into a habit of being productive during the day. You wouldn't feel so rejected if you thought about what are particular business' needs and how you can meet them and then selling your services instead of selling yourself. This isn't a pageant, you are judged first and foremost on whether you can get shit done. "Will this person make my life easier by taking off some workload or will this person make my life harder by fucking shit up and being a whiny little bitch who thinks that waking up at 7 am is an achievement in and of itself?"

TL;DR: be useful, don't be a whiny bitch

Whoa bro, chill. This post is aimed at people who have tried very hard to make amends for past "mistakes" but continue to come up short because they're not at the right place at the right time. Yeah it's a grind, and I think everyone realizes that.

Don't be making amends for past mistakes. Your time and energy will be better spent preparing for what's to come.

A job is not a reward for past performance , it's a gamble on your future performance.

You can be at the right place at the right time all you want, but if you are not the right person, it doesn't matter.

My point is, spend less time worrying about the place and the time, and more on working towards being the right person.

More is good, all is better
 

-> Cane0180, Vontropnats

Keep dreaming. No one gets exactly what they want in life and I'm simply stating the unfortunate reality that some people despite their hard, unending efforts will not be able to break into banking by no fault of their own.

 

It stinks. But it's the economy, not you. It's not a rejection it's just "Sorry, we don't have any room to hire anyone right now."

You will work some type of support because of your defeatist attitude. Fucking negative Nancy.
Let's not be nasty. Everyone here is swimming against the tide. And in investment banking and trading, it is truly a riptide as lots of water (assets) get drawn through this narrow channel of equity. I am not sure investment banking jobs will be paying $200K in 10 years. (However, I will suspect they will require fewer hours and still offer comfortably above-average pay.) If you don't have an offer yet, you may very well not get one. And if you do have a job, you will probably see your expected pay reduced drastically in the next ten years.

I choose to be grateful for what I do have. I can keep a roof over my head and food on the table for six years (after paying for grad school). I have hang gliding. I have programming skills and various friends around the street. I have a really good tech startup idea that I hope can help change how the middle-class invests and help transform the US into a country of savers.

Maybe if I were incredibly driven I could have been a millionaire by 27. I don't have everything I want. But I am happy with and grateful for what I do have. And material possessions- besides maybe my basic needs- are not my most important assets.

1.) Develop a practical skill that is always in demand. Mine is programming. Accounting is another great practical skill. There aren't many long-term unemployed CPAs. Same with Engineers and Actuaries. This helps set a bit of a floor under the value of your work. 2.) Aim high but take what you can get. 3.) Work hard but don't kill yourself. 4.) Be grateful for what you have. 5.) Don't be disappointed when you only have an $80k/year job at a commercial bank at 30. Many people have a whole lot less. And many people making $500k/year are miserable.

 

trading and banking are not even that glamorous compared to before. I heard now a days most S&T analysts just do support work like getting coffee and summarize market news for the traders. Young bankers spend all day fixing powerpoints. Honestly, don't get stucked on these two fields. Maybe outside of Finance is the way to go.

 
Irresistible:
trading and banking are not even that glamorous compared to before. I heard now a days most S&T analysts just do support work like getting coffee and summarize market news for the traders. Young bankers spend all day fixing powerpoints. Honestly, don't get stucked on these two fields. Maybe outside of Finance is the way to go.

I love that you classify "summarizing news for traders" as a menial job...i would have killed for that job out of college. I have heard that now a days most college students are ridiculously out of touch with reality.

As for the rest of the above discussion...not having an investment banking job out of college is certainly not failure. I hate to join up with the "suck it up" crowd but its true...to be succesful at anything in life, regardless of the field, you are going to need alot more gumption then you displayed in the original post. Nobody is giving anything away in this business, especially these days.

And as per usual Illini pops in with "just try to make 80k and be happy"...and that is also an option I am sure, but not one I can relate to.

 

I remember the feeling of dread during junior/senior year of college. When Illini talks about state schools, he's referring to large scale institutions, massive public school systems where each school has a 30K undergrad population. Recruiting is a whole different ball game at smaller, liberal art schools, where OCR is truly non-existent.

As the OP stated, there's kind of a comical nature to how much effort is put forth in networking. Whenever I set up an informational interview at a local coffee shop, I made sure to get there at least 1.5 hours in advance. That way, I could strategically pick the best table/seats at the shop, away from the crowds, closest to windows, etc. You really do look for every little edge, especially when your job is to be a full-time networker.

In a way, I felt as if I was possessed. Everyday hour I checked my inbox. Read over 3 sentence emails 20+ times. Practiced interviewing and modeling as a way to pass time. In the end, I realized that I would have to settle. I'm not at MBB, but I'm at a solid shop, and nothing is stopping me from eventually getting there. Positive attitude goes a lot further than most think.

 
Bondarb:
Vontropnats:
Dude "try to make $80K and be happy" is the best advice anyone can give IMO.

I didnt say it wasnt good advice, I said I cannot relate to it. Perhaps its because I actually know middle-aged people with families who attempt to raise a family on 80k and because I dont intend on moving to the midwest in order to get by.

Check out the Southeast...cheaper and better weather.
 

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