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Time To Respect The MSF: Top Five MSF Myths Debunked
 

JohnBaker's picture
 
Points)
 on 11/9/12 at 4:05pm
financestudent.jpg

Whenever I read about the MSF on WSO I often see people commenting on it that have no idea what they are talking about. So I wanted to write this blog post to clear up some myths. My MSF experience is at the Villanova/Washington University/Vanderbilt/UT-Austin level.

The MSF is an excellent degree. The career focused degree will help you learn a great deal about the different types of financial careers available. You will learn a great deal about Finance, and you will take high level classes (many above MBA level) which will prepare you for your career. The biggest problem with the MSF is that not enough people in America know about it.

Myth #1: Most MSF students use the MSF to make up for a poor undergraduate background.

This is false. You won't get accepted to a good MSF program with a terrible background. Most students in my program graduated with all sorts of honors and 3.5+ GPA's. Most students in my MSF program had degrees in the following: BSBA, Finance, Accounting, Economics, Engineering, and Mathematics. There were a handful of students with Science and Liberal Arts backgrounds. Every one of the MSF students in my program got a high GMAT score, most above 700. The students were all intelligent and driven. They were the cream of the crop from non-target schools who wanted to further their learning, take advantage of OCR at the MSF school, or get a solid financial background.

Myth #2: MSF=MFE, MiM, etc.

Duke does not have an MSF program, it has a Masters in Management program. Princeton's MSF is not really an MSF. It is more of a Financial Engineering/Quantitative Finance program that requires 3+ years work experience. An MSF usually has students with 0 to 1-2 years work experience, occasionally older students. A few programs are different. There is no standardized MSF so be sure to research the makeup of the student body and the curriculum before you attend.

Myth #3: The MSF is easy.

The MSF is not easy. The MSF is not a "fifth year" of college. If you have prior finance experience you will be prepared for some classes but it will still be very tough. The quantitative level is higher than what you will have experienced in your undergrad especially if you attend certain programs. Professors expect more of you than they would an undergraduate or even an MBA in finance classes.

Myth #4: You can't get a banking or consulting job out of an MSF.

This is not true. Multiple MSF students have been able to get the jobs they desired. However, just like with undergraduates if you don't have the proper experience or background you wont have a shot. Just having the MSF on your resume won't be enough. You need to prepare and get an internship the summer before the MSF in the field you want or have an extremely strong network going into fall recruiting season.

Myth #5: The MSF will get me a job

No. You need to get yourself a job. The MSF programs are highly regional, although alumni from your program may be located across the 50 states. You need to build your network if you want to work in a certain area.

Next time a resume hits your desk and the applicant has an MSF, give them a shot. They are smart, hardworking, and full of financial knowledge.

Comments

TNA's picture

LOL. Decent post, but a few

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:28pm

LOL.

Decent post, but a few points of contention.

1) Plenty of students get into those programs you listed with lower GPA's or lower GMAT's. If you have internships or work experience you can stand out. If your GPA shows progression, you have a reason for a low GPA, you had a hard science GPA and switched to finance, etc. Since there are no real US based rankings programs tend to be more lenient. A higher GPA and GMAT will help with fellowships and scholarships, but doesn't mean you are excluded.

2) I largely agree with your second point, but from a strict career perspective, the MSF is a specialized business degree to leverage into a FT offer. In that regard the MSF=MMS. Students compare Duke with Nova, WUSTL, CMC, etc all the time. Same thing with the UVA MS in Commerce.

3) Spot on. MSF is not easy. Some use it as a 5th year, not necessarily for the ease of the program, but to be in school again. If you are reasonably smart and a finance UG you should have no problem keeping up with effort.

4) Spot on.

5) So true.

Good post. Glad to see more people pushing for recognition and promoting the degree.

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

yeahright's picture

I've always wondered this.

O
(King Kong, 1,208
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:32pm

I've always wondered this. Lets say an individual cannot afford to do an MSF but it would be a significant boost to said person's background. Also, lets say in this scenario they have a good job now in NYC, not great but very good. They could afford the MSF if they continued working, thus part time degree.

How do part time MSF type degrees look in the long run? I would assume not much difference?

Also, what options would be available to someone working in NYC for a MSF or related degree? I understand MSF =/= MFE or MiM but lets say they would still be a boost to someones background. Obviously Columbia and NYU but what else is feasible?

Thanks for anyone's answers. And also, good post! +1 when I can

Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."

In reply to yeahright
TNA's picture

yeahright: I've always

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:38pm
yeahright:

I've always wondered this. Lets say an individual cannot afford to do an MSF but it would be a significant boost to said person's background. Also, lets say in this scenario they have a good job now in NYC, not great but very good. They could afford the MSF if they continued working, thus part time degree.

How do part time MSF type degrees look in the long run? I would assume not much difference?

Also, what options would be available to someone working in NYC for a MSF or related degree? I understand MSF =/= MFE or MiM but lets say they would still be a boost to someones background. Obviously Columbia and NYU but what else is feasible?

Thanks for anyone's answers. And also, good post! +1 when I can

U Rochester has a nice MSF program in NYC. I would consider that the "premier" degree right now. Pace has a degree, Hofstra, Baruch has an exec program.

As for benefit long term, depends. If you are in Corporate Finance the MSF is often considered an MBA substitute. You can also usually pair up some MBA classes to augment the degree if you want. A lot of MSF programs are offering a 1+1 set up so you can get your MSF and then do an MBA later in one year. Not a bad deal.

IMO, if you are determined to work in banking and have a job which you don't like, under pays you and your UG profile won't get your into a T15 MBA program, an MSF might be worth it. Programs range in cost so you can pick which fits you the best.

If you are working in F500, like it and have a decent UG, you might not want to pursue an MSF right now. The degree is growing with more programs coming on line and in the next 5-10 years you will see a big growth. The GMAC just reported continued increases in specialized masters applications and I know of a couple programs in the planning stages for rolling out a degree.

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to TNA
JohnBaker's picture

TNA: LOL. Decent post, but a

 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:42pm
TNA:

LOL.

Decent post, but a few points of contention.

1. I definitely agree. It just seems like many people on this website think MSF students are a bunch of two point something scrubs who are only doing the MSF because they snoozed through undergrad. The majority have good GPAs and good GMAT's.

2. I just want to separate the degree by what you are learning. The MSF is hardcore finance. The MMS is basically an MBA lite. MS Commerce is very unique. MACC degrees are also specialized business degrees but MACC=/= MSF.

3. MSF is definitely not easy, especially if you are coming from a non-financial undergraduate background.

MSF needs to be more respected. I am tired of explaining the MSF. This is my effort to educate WSO!

In reply to TNA
JohnBaker's picture

TNA: The degree is growing

 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:44pm
TNA:

The degree is growing with more programs coming on line and in the next 5-10 years you will see a big growth. The GMAC just reported continued increases in specialized masters applications and I know of a couple programs in the planning stages for rolling out a degree.

Are you able to reveal those?

TNA's picture

I'd prefer not since I was

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:48pm

I'd prefer not since I was given the heads up from a couple friends. They are very good schools and will be highly competitive with current programs. Should roll out in the next couple of years.

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to TNA
DrPeterVenkman's picture

TNA: I'd prefer not since I

O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:49pm
TNA:

I'd prefer not since I was given the heads up from a couple friends. They are very good schools and will be highly competitive with current programs. Should roll out in the next couple of years.

Wow this is very interesting.

OP, good post!

See my WSO blog

to_IBornot_toB's picture

The toughest part of the

(Baboon, 101
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 4:52pm

The toughest part of the getting a job from an MSF, is that you have to sell it. Yes, there are a few "target" firms that come on campus, but more importantly you need to reach out to other people, and find what story fits for you.

Make a logical story (much harder done than said) and I think the MSF is worthwhile. Also, if you can get the MSF at a discount (fellowships, grants, scholarships), do so. This makes for bragging points during on-campus interviews when going up against other students from your MSF.

Just as with any frat, club, organization, employer, etc. don't make the MSF your life. It is a part of your studies. It is not all of it. So don't rely on it for a job. You need to build around the MSF. This means internships, leadership, and whatever else. I feel like having an internship before your MSF will set you leagues ahead of others.

Lastly, your story needs to be perfect. This takes practice. And msf alum are the people with that practice. Even before you start the program you need have spoke with your msf alum base. Ask them the question you would expect to get asked: Why did you do the MSF? Did you have an offer your senior year? Did you always want to do banking/advisory/corp fin? Why did you choose this school? Hearing their answers should give you direction on how you should put your story together. Make sure to network with them before you start networking with the school's undergrad alum. Use msf alum as training.

Also, the msf degree is still relatively new in the states. This means there are only a few good schools. So when you are considering options Villavnoa/ W U/ Vandy/ UT, just know that the alum from other msf programs thought the same thing. They might have chose a different school, but that doesnt mean they didnt think about your program. Use them, they are an useful asset.

iRX's picture

DEADLY FUCKING CORRECT.

IB
(Orangutan, 282
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:05pm

DEADLY FUCKING CORRECT. Having gone through the MSF and now in banking, I fully support the accuracy of this post. The one tough thing that I would have to highlight here is the fact that most employers don't understand the degree and often think it is similar to an MBA. In no way is this degree similar to an MBA. I spent a good (on average) 20% of every interview explaining the program and the value-add it offers. Although I do see it catching on, there is still a huge gap in the knowledge prospective employers have of the program.

KKS's picture

For schools with MSF or other

IB
(Gorilla, 689
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:10pm

For schools with MSF or other "fifth-year programs" (like Duke), are you competing against UG students (assuming you have little or no work experience)? If you have had UG IB-related internships, but no internship the summer before the MSF, how does that position you?

ssc122's picture

So whats the difference

(Monkey, 58
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:10pm

So whats the difference between a first year analyst with a BS from a target and one with a MSF?

TNA's picture

No work experience =

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:13pm

No work experience = competing with UG's.

An MSF will not get you more money in the investment banking area. Other career paths, possibly.

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to ssc122
TNA's picture

ssc122: So whats the

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:15pm
ssc122:

So whats the difference between a first year analyst with a BS from a target and one with a MSF?

An extra piece of paper. A deeper understanding of the subject of finance. Depends. Does this Ivy UG has a business degree, or just a BS?

End of the day you both have the job. The MSF might not have had the job without the degree.

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

to_IBornot_toB's picture

As OP mentioned, the MSF is

(Baboon, 101
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:16pm

As OP mentioned, the MSF is not an easy degree by any means. It is not like finance classes from undergrad. I had an accounting and finance background, internships in banking, and still was left clueless all too often. I think the best benefit of the MSF or any Masters in general, is the specialized education you receive. That is something that will most likely provide benefits much later than you first year on the job.

For example; a student in a MSF might want to be in IB. So they pay attention in Valuation or corp fin classes. However, he still has to learn the materials for Derivatives or Fixed Income. This specialized knowledge of the finance field will come in handy later on. And any good student would start connecting their classes together, thinking macro economically, and finding out impacts to their particular sector.

In reply to TNA
to_IBornot_toB's picture

TNA: ssc122: So whats the

(Baboon, 101
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:23pm
TNA:
ssc122:

So whats the difference between a first year analyst with a BS from a target and one with a MSF?

An extra piece of paper. A deeper understanding of the subject of finance. Depends. Does this Ivy UG has a business degree, or just a BS?

End of the day you both have the job. The MSF might not have had the job without the degree.

Strongly disagree on the extra piece of paper part. If you pay for a program I think you should get more than a sheet of paper out of it. By all means, kids getting into the MSF usually just care about finding a job, but many other skills are unique to MSF programs that help you later on.

A) It's a masters, and I reiterate, material is difficult
B) Usually a cohort, means learning team skills that aren't too prevalent in large state schools/undergrads
C) Get to see the Academic side, could even pique your interest

mperit01's picture

I have learned a few things

ER
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:38pm
In reply to mperit01
iRX's picture

mperit01: I have learned a

IB
(Orangutan, 282
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 5:54pm
ssc122's picture

What mperit01 said makes a

(Monkey, 58
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 6:09pm
UFOinsider's picture

@ ANT - why do you say

O
(Human, 10,465
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 6:19pm

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

shorttheworld's picture

MIT's MSF is still for fresh

EN
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 6:25pm

I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe

From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America

A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i

sayandarula's picture

"Myth #1: Most MSF students

O
(King Kong, 1,809
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 6:31pm

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

In reply to sayandarula
ssc122's picture

Yup. It makes sense for STEM

(Monkey, 58
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 6:37pm
naeko31's picture

Does admittance into an MSF

(Chimp, 12
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 7:02pm
In reply to shorttheworld
Macro Arbitrage's picture

shorttheworld: MIT's MSF is

HF
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 7:02pm

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Ichan's picture

It is great article, no doubt

O
(Baboon, 151
 
Points)
 on 10/12/12 at 9:02pm

It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.

In reply to naeko31
Mr.CoolGuy's picture

naeko31: Does admittance into

(Chimp, 14
 
Points)
 on 10/14/12 at 5:15am
In reply to iRX
tek1234567's picture

iRX: DEADLY FUCKING CORRECT.

(Chimp, 2
 
Points)
 on 10/14/12 at 12:09pm
In reply to iRX
tek1234567's picture

iRX: DEADLY FUCKING CORRECT.

(Chimp, 2
 
Points)
 on 10/14/12 at 2:52pm
TNA's picture

Sorry guy, I was out of

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/14/12 at 3:53pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to TNA
UFOinsider's picture

TNA: Sorry guy, I was out of

O
(Human, 10,465
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 10:02am

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

TNA's picture

Let me reach out to a guy I

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 12:07pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

Amphipathic's picture

My understanding (correct me

 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 1:03pm
In reply to Amphipathic
TNA's picture

Amphipathic: My understanding

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 1:37pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

adapt or die's picture

I did an MSF at one of the

(King Kong, 1,265
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 3:47pm
In reply to TNA
Amphipathic's picture

TNA: Amphipathic: My

 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 4:14pm
Bankn's picture

What does anyone need a

(Orangutan, 287
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 11:02pm
In reply to Bankn
Ichan's picture

Bankn: What does anyone need

O
(Baboon, 151
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 11:15pm

It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.

In reply to Ichan
Bankn's picture

Ichan: Bankn: What does

(Orangutan, 287
 
Points)
 on 10/15/12 at 11:30pm
WreckEmFinance's picture

i am a senior UG at Texas

O
(Baboon, 144
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 2:20am

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

In reply to WreckEmFinance
Bankn's picture

WreckEmFinance: i am a senior

(Orangutan, 287
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 11:01am
Ichan's picture

I am sure you all have heard

O
(Baboon, 151
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 11:38am

It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.

In reply to WreckEmFinance
VoidTrading's picture

I found this relating to your

AM
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 11:45am
TNA's picture

My old website,

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 12:43pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to TNA
Ichan's picture

TNA: My old website,

O
(Baboon, 151
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 12:50pm

It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.

TNA's picture

Yeah, I mean I could do that,

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 12:58pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

In reply to TNA
Ichan's picture

TNA: Yeah, I mean I could do

O
(Baboon, 151
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 1:10pm

It's not about the money. It's about the game between people.

TNA's picture

Yeah, that would be a good

O
(Human, 13,711
 
Points)
 on 10/16/12 at 1:22pm

MSF Website
MACC Website
MSF Twitter

raz's picture

good thread

(Monkey, 52
 
Points)
 on 10/19/12 at 8:19pm
In reply to Bankn
WreckEmFinance's picture

Bankn: WreckEmFinance: i am

O
(Baboon, 144
 
Points)
 on 10/22/12 at 3:07am

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

Pocket_Hercules's picture

Getting ready to finish up my

CF
(Chimp, 14
 
Points)
 on 10/30/12 at 7:39pm

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