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2/5/15

Mod Note: Throwback Thursday: this post originally went up on 8/22/12.

The most common arguments on WSO are about what it really takes to make it to Wall Street... and then what your options are if you get there. Working professionals come here to engage in witty banter and relax, only to spend half our time here debunking bullshit and writing advice based on our (limited) personal experiences.

How can we cut to the chase and give these kids hard data on which to base their life decisions, as well as save ourselves some time so we can get back to important things like ass and titties?

The answer came to me as I was googling a few ex-coworkers from a long time ago, just to see how they've been doing and whether I've done better or worse (something people do far more than they'd like to admit). The data is out there.

Yeah, anyone with enough connections could throw a data set together from LinkedIn. But let's face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise. We don't want them in the data set. We want certified ballers only, right?

Let's just say that, thanks to some HR friends and a truly brilliant data miner, I now have a high-quality data set that contains details of education and career path (over the past 5-10 years) of hundreds of bulge-bracket investment bankers at every level from analyst to MD. (Yes, it has names and such as well, but obviously I'm not sharing those.) It is longitudinal, meaning that it follows these bankers from a certain point in their careers up until today. It also gives a sense as to comparative compensation levels, though no dollar figures there.

Just looking at the initial cut of the data, I see lots of surprises. (The last 10-15% of the data is still being compiled, so I'll throw hard numbers behind these statements when I have them.)

  • A lot of these people did their undergrad at good state schools. Far more than I expected, at every level. Maybe I shouldn't worship quite so intently at the HYPS altar.
  • Far more analysts got a direct promotion to associate than I expected.
  • Canadians are everywhere. Some kind of secret fucking society. (Hey Canadians, if you love socialism so much, why did you cross the border to fuel the capitalist juggernaut? How's that Visa status looking, by the way? Better keep your nose clean or you'll be back in fucking Saskatchewan cutting lumber with your six brothers before you can say "Tim Hortons".)
  • Late career is more brutal than it looks. People who leave the firm over 50 almost always take a big step down. People who stay are either the 1/1000 who can ride that bull all the way to the top... or they gradually get put out to pasture. From what I can tell in the data set, it doesn't look voluntary (i.e., comp/dealflow starts to wane, then two years later they're either playing poker or they start a boutique shop with two buddies and an analyst and have no dealflow).
  • More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.
  • The concept of a two-year analyst program is just that: a concept. The actual tenure of people hired into traditional two-year programs varies from that ideal by quite a bit.

There are more surprises here, but I'll get to them. Let me ask you: what sort of queries should we run on this to answer some of the eternal debates here?
Some examples of questions we could answer:

  • Average/max age upon entering business school?
  • Is business school necessary?
  • What percent of people who start a two-year analyst program actually finish it?
  • What percent of analysts actually accomplish a 2+2 banking/PE combo?
  • Which b-schools will get you there? (So far, this looks pretty traditional. I think the point may go to Brady on this one.)
  • How many chicks make it to MD, and is comp similar to males?
  • How many chicks make it past analyst? Associate?
  • Ditto Asians/Indians (would take some doing since I don't have ethnicity data in the set, but could be done).
  • On average, how many Wall Street firms do people work for over their careers?

Thoughts?

EDIT: By the way, don't bother asking a question if you're not ready for the answer. This hasn't happened yet, but I fully expect someone to start dissing the data if the answer isn't what they want/expect to hear. (This ain't my first time at that particular rodeo, kids.)

Going deep into sampling methodology would risk burning my source, not to mention myself. So folks will have to take me at my word that the sampling method is sufficiently strong. If you don't take me at my word, don't ask the question.

The entire point of statistical sampling is to cut through existing bias, not confirm it. So if you just want some stats to confirm your belief, it's probably easier to just play senior banker (or WSO monkey) and make up some stats that sound right to you.

Comments (208)

In reply to capitalizeddisinterest
Best Response
8/22/12
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

8/22/12

- Racial make up of bankers vs demographics of the country
- Where bankers live (do they all migrate to Greenwich?)

If you can do those two, that'll be great.

8/22/12

by 30, 90% washout rate. among 20 personal IBD acquaintances, 2 made it to MD, 9 washed out at VP/associate level, the rest left as analysts. two left before their first year was up. VP GS salary, around 500K at the peak in '07. asians and indians don't do well in the long run. biggest successes skipped bschool.

8/22/12

An insightful bankerella post........................what's happening here

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

8/22/12

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

8/22/12

Pie chart of Target, non-target, semi-target so that shit can be finally buried deep for another year. As well as MBA tier break down % so that shit can be buried for 6 months. And maybe for fun # of marriages on average per each level for shits and giggles plz (guessing MD would be like 2, 1st year analyst would be 0)

8/22/12
bankerella:

Better keep your nose clean or you'll be back in fucking Saskatchewan cutting lumber with your six brothers before you can say "Tim Hortons".)

haha

In reply to monyet
8/22/12
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

Now there's a very good set of questions. I'm aware of that myth on the street as well.

My hunch from personal experience is that Wharton undergrads do become direct-promotes at higher rates but peter out in mid-career. (However, one thing that this exercise has shown me is that years of personal observations are still nowhere near as accurate as a real data set, because we tend to observe and remember things that confirm the beliefs we started with.)

There is a substantial subset of Wharton undergrads in this sample, so I'll look at 'em and tell you guys what I find.

In reply to ladubs111
8/22/12
ladubs111:

Pie chart of Target, non-target, semi-target so that shit can be finally buried deep for another year. As well as MBA tier break down % so that shit can be buried for 6 months. And maybe for fun # of marriages on average per each level for shits and giggles plz (guessing MD would be like 2, 1st year analyst would be 0)

I like the pie chart idea. Do you guys care about the whole population or just the analysts? I ask because it looks like analysts are more likely to be from a target than MDs. This could be a function of the fact that recruiting standards (and percent/number of Americans going to college) have changed a lot over the last twenty years.

Also, please, somebody throw me a clue on semi-targets. WTF is a semi-target? I've been peripherally involved with recruiting in one way or another for my whole fucking career, and I still don't comprehend the semi-target distinction.

Target school: has a team of alumni working at the firm who go back to recruit. We do EISs and talks, conduct first rounds on campus, and generally try to get as many of our people in the door as possible, whether summer or full-time.

Non-target school: Maybe a resume drop, maybe nothing. We don't go there, we don't have an alumni team, etc.

Semi-target school: Everything in between? Or we might go do first-rounds there in order to round out our full-time program?

Someone break it down for me in a way my miniscule reptilian brain can comprehend. Or upload a list. Or just admit that nobody really knows how to define semi-target, and that the whole population of colleges is a spectrum with HYPS on one end and DeVry on the other.

8/22/12

Riddle me this...how many people leave the biz to open places like Double or Muffin?

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:

Now there's a very good set of questions. I'm aware of that myth on the street as well.

My hunch from personal experience is that Wharton undergrads do become direct-promotes at higher rates but peter out in mid-career. (However, one thing that this exercise has shown me is that years of personal observations are still nowhere near as accurate as a real data set, because we tend to observe and remember things that confirm the beliefs we started with.)

There is a substantial subset of Wharton undergrads in this sample, so I'll look at 'em and tell you guys what I find.

Thx. Pls do

8/22/12

would be awesome if the pie chart is just analyst level. Most people here don't even want to make it up to MD on the sell-side.

S&T, ER pie charts would be cool also if you had the data

8/22/12

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

8/22/12

Would be interesting to see:
1. School break down
2. Number of analysts who make it to PE, then differentiate between megafund, large MM, MM, lower MM
3. Number of analysts who make it to HF

8/22/12

great post bankerella...this is the type of thread that is extremely valuable for the WSO community.

8/22/12

Are you only looking at IBD or does it include other areas of the bank? If including other areas, I would love to see if Quants have lower career ceilings than others. Most people believe this to be true.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:

Semi-target school: Everything in between? Or we might go do first-rounds there in order to round out our full-time program? .

Do a quick check on Indiana University Kelly's IB Workshop. They place 100% and are considered a large state school semi-target.

8/22/12

Best post in months, really looking forward to whatever analysis comes out of it.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:
ladubs111:

Pie chart of Target, non-target, semi-target so that shit can be finally buried deep for another year. As well as MBA tier break down % so that shit can be buried for 6 months. And maybe for fun # of marriages on average per each level for shits and giggles plz (guessing MD would be like 2, 1st year analyst would be 0)

I like the pie chart idea. Do you guys care about the whole population or just the analysts? I ask because it looks like analysts are more likely to be from a target than MDs. This could be a function of the fact that recruiting standards (and percent/number of Americans going to college) have changed a lot over the last twenty years.

Also, please, somebody throw me a clue on semi-targets. WTF is a semi-target? I've been peripherally involved with recruiting in one way or another for my whole fucking career, and I still don't comprehend the semi-target distinction.

Target school: has a team of alumni working at the firm who go back to recruit. We do EISs and talks, conduct first rounds on campus, and generally try to get as many of our people in the door as possible, whether summer or full-time.

Non-target school: Maybe a resume drop, maybe nothing. We don't go there, we don't have an alumni team, etc.

Semi-target school: Everything in between? Or we might go do first-rounds there in order to round out our full-time program?

Someone break it down for me in a way my miniscule reptilian brain can comprehend. Or upload a list. Or just admit that nobody really knows how to define semi-target, and that the whole population of colleges is a spectrum with HYPS on one end and DeVry on the other.

Ya target can be somewhat classified but non target i dont know neither. Best best would be just use that shit US news rankings for semi target and non target and just filter it from like top 40 or 50 minus the generally accepted target schools names as semi target and rest as others.

8/22/12

Hey, great thread!
What about percentages of people from Europe working in Wall Street ?

Colourful TV, colourless Life.

8/22/12

Now most of them Canadians don't happen to work for the RBC now would they??????

8/22/12

I going to assume the CDN stats rose exponentially after Ivey hired that person from DLJ as their head of career services in the early 90s.....

8/22/12

Bravo.

Would love to see an "exit opps" breakdown based on BB, middle market, elite boutique, unknown boutique, etc. I imagine the % in PE or HF is far lower than most people imagine and % straight to b-school is higher than most would think.

What type of sample size are we talking?

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

8/22/12

area chart showing percentage of each segment of finance populated on y-axis and year in career on x-axis. looks like year 1 will be 100% IB based on sample set, we'll have to work with that. year 10 should show very little IB, maybe 10% or less, and rest 90% should be mostly paradise areas. please include legend with distinct colors used for each segment, but no pink, we need this to be presentable. at minimum, HF, AM, PE, VC, F500, IB should be represented. please revert back with q's. please label years and percentages clearly, include appropriate title.

thx

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to duffmt6
8/22/12
duffmt6:

Bravo.

Would love to see an "exit opps" breakdown based on BB, middle market, elite boutique, unknown boutique, etc. I imagine the % in PE or HF is far lower than most people imagine and % straight to b-school is higher than most would think.

What type of sample size are we talking?

Yep, an exit opps analysis is a given. Question is: what constitutes an exit? A lot of these guys "exit" to someplace new every 18 months during the time period covered by the study. Does only the first exit count, or do we care more about where they ultimately ended up (or, to be more specific, whatever firm they're at today)?

Sample size looks like it's going to wind up somewhere around 250-300 individuals who have every cell filled out, maybe as many as 500 depending on what the question is.

8/22/12
bankerella:

Thoughts?

bankerella:

so we can get back to important things like ass and titties?

Yes, let's, I'm a fan. but first:

bankerella:

More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.

I'd like to learn more about this? What are the alternate routes, what did they do, what degrees did they get, did they start at the firm and transfer from another area, what about the oddball non finance backgrounds, etc...

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
8/22/12
UFOinsider:
bankerella:

Thoughts?

bankerella:

so we can get back to important things like ass and titties?

Yes, let's, I'm a fan. but first:

bankerella:

More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.

I'd like to learn more about this? What are the alternate routes, what did they do, what degrees did they get, did they start at the firm and transfer from another area, what about the oddball non finance backgrounds, etc...

Yep, good questions. I can give percentages soon, but preliminary glance says that some nontraditional associates enter from:

1-2 years in industry/corp dev post-MBA
Top accounting/consulting/strategy post-MBA
Big law (presumably they had an M&A focus)

One thing I don't see is any associates coming in from nontraditional backgrounds who only have a bachelor's.

Also don't see anybody coming straight out of any kind of academic program except MBA. So no MSIS or financial masters' degrees. Also no JDs straight from school (unless of course they did a JD/MBA).

Also, looks like most/all the MBAs were two-year programs.

8/22/12

You clearly know nothing about Canadians.

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:
UFOinsider:
bankerella:

Thoughts?

bankerella:

so we can get back to important things like ass and titties?

Yes, let's, I'm a fan. but first:

bankerella:

More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.

I'd like to learn more about this? What are the alternate routes, what did they do, what degrees did they get, did they start at the firm and transfer from another area, what about the oddball non finance backgrounds, etc...

Yep, good questions. I can give percentages soon, but preliminary glance says that some nontraditional associates enter from:

1-2 years in industry/corp dev post-MBA
Top accounting/consulting/strategy post-MBA
Big law (presumably they had an M&A focus)

One thing I don't see is any associates coming in from nontraditional backgrounds who only have a bachelor's.

Also don't see anybody coming straight out of any kind of academic program except MBA. So no MSIS or financial masters' degrees. Also no JDs straight from school (unless of course they did a JD/MBA).

Also, looks like most/all the MBAs were two-year programs.

Ok, so fairly standard MBA rebranding efforts? Work/travel/blahblahblah -> MBA -> IBD with a few law degrees mixed in for flavor, yes?

One followup question: incoming analysts: how many coming out of big4 TAS, Sales (where I am), AM, ER, ops, etc... Did you go there at all?

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
8/22/12
UFOinsider:

Ok, so fairly standard MBA rebranding efforts? Work/travel/blahblahblah -> MBA -> IBD with a few law degrees mixed in for flavor, yes?

Actually, I meant MBA --> industry/corp dev/accounting/strategy -->IBD

One thing I found slightly odd is that all the people going from accounting/consulting associate to IBD associate already had MBAs. In other words, perhaps you really do need either an MBA or a highly successful IBD analyst tenure. And perhaps, in accounting/consulting, direct-promote is not a get-out-of-MBA-free card.

One followup question: incoming analysts: how many coming out of big4 TAS, Sales (where I am), AM, ER, ops, etc... Did you go there at all?

This is a more complicated question. I'm not really finding many analysts with a gap between graduation and start date, leading me to believe that it's actually pretty rare for analysts to come from anywhere but college (or college + masters). But for people who are more senior and entered as analysts a long time ago, there are frequently big gaps between their undergrad graduation and their entry into the IBD analyst role

There are a couple of ways we could interpret that. Perhaps times have changed and there used to be a road from AM/ER/big4/ops to IBD analyst that isn't there anymore. On the other hand, perhaps the jump is just so difficult that those who make it clearly have the connections to stick around and become senior.

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:
UFOinsider:

Ok, so fairly standard MBA rebranding efforts? Work/travel/blahblahblah -> MBA -> IBD with a few law degrees mixed in for flavor, yes?

Actually, I meant MBA --> industry/corp dev/accounting/strategy -->IBD

One thing I found slightly odd is that all the people going from accounting/consulting associate to IBD associate already had MBAs. In other words, perhaps you really do need either an MBA or a highly successful IBD analyst tenure. And perhaps, in accounting/consulting, direct-promote is not a get-out-of-MBA-free card.

Extremely interesting. Out of this sample, what percent of those MBAs are M7? Is there enough data to find a tendancy?

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
8/22/12
UFOinsider:
bankerella:
UFOinsider:

Ok, so fairly standard MBA rebranding efforts? Work/travel/blahblahblah -> MBA -> IBD with a few law degrees mixed in for flavor, yes?

Actually, I meant MBA --> industry/corp dev/accounting/strategy -->IBD

One thing I found slightly odd is that all the people going from accounting/consulting associate to IBD associate already had MBAs. In other words, perhaps you really do need either an MBA or a highly successful IBD analyst tenure. And perhaps, in accounting/consulting, direct-promote is not a get-out-of-MBA-free card.

Extremely interesting. Out of this sample, what percent of those MBAs are M7? Is there enough data to find a tendancy?

Yep, data's good here. Out of MBAs in the sample, looks like roughly 50% were M7. The split between M7s was fairly even, with Columbia and Wharton taking a slight lead.

An additional ~45% were Tuck, Stern, Ross, Duke, Darden, Haas, Anderson, Cornell. The split here looks heavily weighted to Tuck and Ross.

<5% were everything else (such as Notre Dame, Georgetown, etc.)

Edit: Sorry, I misread you. The data in this comment refers to all the MBAs in the whole set, not the subset of people with MBAs entering as IBD associates from nontraditional backgrounds. Let me get back to you on that.

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:

Edit: Sorry, I misread you. The data in this comment refers to all the MBAs in the whole set, not the subset of people with MBAs entering as IBD associates from nontraditional backgrounds. Let me get back to you on that.

if you could provide this data, it would possibly be the single most useful piece of information i've ever gotten on WSO.

+1, and count me in as a bankerella fanboy.

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

In reply to G Spread
8/22/12
In reply to G Spread
8/22/12
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

In reply to G Spread
8/22/12
Pancakes:

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Aw, shucks, I can't take all the credit. Whatever it is you're talking about, I was able to achieve it because I was standing on the shoulders of giants -- the giant fucking douchebags that have gone before me.

In reply to monyet
8/22/12
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella:
Pancakes:

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Aw, shucks -- I can't take all the credit. Whatever it is you're talking about, I was able to achieve it because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. In other words, the giant fucking douchebags that have gone before me.

You're welcome.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

8/22/12
8/22/12

All Whartonites have access to the Wharton database on spike (it's under the community tab, then alumni directory). It basically has every single alumni, all the jobs they've had with dates, it allows you to stratify by industry, company, title, city and a whole bunch of other random things. It has their personal and work emails, it even gives you their home addresses (I've got to admit, i did check out a few of the pads on google maps just out of curiosity, bloody sick some of them - if i ever run out of money in the city or london, I'll just knock on their door saying I'm an alum that needs shelter lol jk) and telephone numbers (surprisingly some really powerful alums data is up there (i.e I've got Donald Trump's number lol - not that I'd call it). It's got 85 k names there (Jed Cairo actually exists btw), so its a pretty good resource. Bloody useful, it has a lot of filtering options so I'm sure we could do something with it. I'm too busy trying to get hired as an oil trader so I'm not bothered to do it, but i'm sure there are other Wharton alums that would be happy to help if you've got questions.

8/22/12

how many have no college at all?

alpha currency trader wanna-be

8/22/12

how many have no college at all?

alpha currency trader wanna-be

In reply to watersign
8/22/12
watersign:

how many have no college at all?

No individual in the sample has no college.

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12

bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:
you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

In reply to Going Concern
8/22/12
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

Get busy living

8/22/12

Well, what a nice post, kudos. I am wondering about people from latam, maybe you can give us an insight.

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus

Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!

In reply to UFOinsider
8/22/12
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to Going Concern
8/22/12
Going Concern:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

thank you, sweetheart

Get busy living

8/22/12

Correlation between comp and dealflow / transaction $ would be interesting. Also comp as a percentage of dealflow at the VP and MD level

Seems like this will be an amazing study / resource when this is done.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to monyet
8/22/12
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

I really wasn't sure at first. Anyway, I was hurt by the mention of lumberjacks. It's not like there aren't any in Idaho and North Dakota!! I'll save the whole political/moral debate I had waiting lol

8/22/12

Canadiens, please stfu.

Bankarella, I love you. I'm sure you're hot and I would totally do you. Now, do you have any insights into the careers of traders? What do they do after trading at a BB, more trading?

8/22/12

Great post Bankerella. Maybe you could include data on finance profressionals with advanced degrees (MD, PHD, JD.). Some questions that come to mind are what percentage of bankers hold an advanced degree, what type of industries MD/MBA, PHD candiates enter, etc.

In reply to bankerella
8/22/12
bankerella][quote=capitalizeddisinterest:

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Our anthem is "Oh Canada". Now go suck some trader dick.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

8/22/12

Maybe some data regarding Mfin, MSF? Did they have prior finance internship experience.

8/22/12

Awesome post, everyone who was trying to call BS on bankrella must feel tres dumb right now. See what I did there I dropped random french in with the english, thats what we do...

Ofcourse Canadians are everywhere look at your tech companies and Hollywood. Why you think California has 3 NHL teams?

In reply to 3176401
8/22/12
3176401:

Great post Bankerella. Maybe you could include data on finance profressionals with advanced degrees (MD, PHD, JD.). Some questions that come to mind are what percentage of bankers hold an advanced degree, what type of industries MD/MBA, PHD candiates enter, etc.

Hey, this set of questions doesn't really make sense, except for the JD part. You understand the data set is all front-office BB IBD, right? It includes things like ECM, DCM, traditional IBD, lev fin, financial sponsors, but there's no trading, no hedge fund dudes, no private banking, no quants, no physicians or neurosurgeons or whatever.

Nonetheless, here are the answers:

MD: 0
PhD: 0
JD: looks like roughly 2-3% above VP; 0% of VP and below. Split roughly 50/50 between straight JD and JD+MBA.
% of bankers (above analyst) with advanced degree: roughly 90%. The remaining ~10% were direct promotes of some sort.

In reply to LeveragedTiger
8/22/12
jmayhem][quote=bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Our anthem is "Oh Canada". Now go suck some trader dick.

jmayhem][quote=bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Our anthem is "Oh Canada". Now go suck some trader dick.

i think she wraps it first

8/22/12

Great post. If you're able to answer the following...

What percent of associates make it to MD?
When you get it, what percent of analysts do the direct promotion?
If you have it, industry that analysts got to by percent...i.e. PE, HF, IB, MBA, and others
Return offer rate for summer analysts and summer associates by firm
Some sort of chart showing net compensation by 50 in 2012 dollars. One way is as a bar chart...i.e. this many people made less than $5mill. This many people made $5mill to $10mill etc.

8/22/12

WTF happened? Bankrella is making useful posts now? The world is coming to an end. That's two in a row.

8/22/12

What canadian universities are most represented by %?

8/22/12

OP: awesome post.

8/22/12

This seems too good to be true. Very tempted to call B.S. But instead, I'll (happily) indulge:

Analysts, Associates, VPs, and MDs, by: undergrad, undergrad major, undergrad graduation year, b-school, b-school graduation year. If you can break these figures out across traditional IBD, ECM, and DCM, it would be even more baller.

Thanks!

Edit: Also, the relative distribution of Analysts, Associates, VPs, and MDs.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

8/22/12

This probably ranks among one of the better front page posts on WSO. Bankerella has redeemed her GMAT obsession.

Trying to get the disco song "Native New Yorker" out of my head. Bankerella's New York banker chick persona that epitomizes the song is not helping me.

8/22/12

i was very happy to see the target school myth debunked as your very first point. not trying to diss targets, because of course many people work very hard to attain that level of education. but they are definitely very much over emphasized in my opinion. maybe even moreso in our little monkey microcosm we have here. thank you bankerella. excellent post. after reading your initial findings here, my first thought is that your data supports the good 'ole, outwork 'em and you can do anything methodology

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

In reply to UFOinsider
8/22/12
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

thank you, sweetheart

Gee, the whole quote box reminds me inception!

The Auto Show

In reply to WreckEmFinance
8/22/12
WreckEmFinance:

i was very happy to see the target school myth debunked as your very first point. not trying to diss targets, because of course many people work very hard to attain that level of education. but they are definitely very much over emphasized in my opinion. maybe even moreso in our little monkey microcosm we have here. thank you bankerella. excellent post. after reading your initial findings here, my first thought is that your data supports the good 'ole, outwork 'em and you can do anything methodology

I'm going to ask a question before a target schooler gets to ask it. How historical is this data? If you graduated from UVA in 1983 and paid $2000/year for tuition when Harvard was demanding $15K/year from EVERYONE regardless of economic need, you had a VERY GOOD reason to go to a state school.

I hate to say it, but there were a lot more reasons for a smart kid to go to a state school in the '80s and the '90s than there are today. During the period of bigger government we saw from the 1930s to the 1970s, state schools got better funding and the state government took a more active role in developing and maintaining the educated white collar class than today. At the same time, Ivy Leagues were for the moderately intelligent wealthy, not for the brilliant. (That was MIT, Cal Tech, or Berkeley)

It would be really nice to see evidence of Illinois, UMich, UT Austin, Berkeley, Rutgers, and SUNY grads from '05 onward doing well. It would confirm a lot of the suspicions of us state school folks.

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
8/23/12
IlliniProgrammer:

I'm going to ask a question before a target schooler gets to ask it. How historical is this data?

Average birth year is currently 1975 with a standard deviation of 8 years, and analyst/associate/VP/D/MD populations are all roughly the same size in this sample. Does that answer your question?

I've also just got a huge new sample set, analysts only, recent, from a single year. I think I'm going to handle and analyze them separately, because they're almost equal in size to the entire rest of the set. I think combining them would lose the fidelity of the two separate sampling methods.

IlliniProgrammer:

It would be really nice to see evidence of Illinois, UMich, UT Austin, Berkeley, Rutgers, and SUNY grads from '05 onward doing well. It would confirm a lot of the suspicions of us state school folks.

You know, I keep seeing Illinois pop up in the data set and thinking of you. I never paid much attention to what you said about Illinois, even though one of my closest friends as an analyst went to UIUC and I know a couple of other good alumni too. It's confirmation bias at work: I never really thought of UIUC as a big deal. But this data I'm looking at kinda confirms your point. Kinda. (UMich still beats the pants off you guys in this data set.)

I confess, I love it when I see that some badass baller MD went to a state school, even if it makes me sick to my stomach when I think of what I myself spent on undergrad. I just have to keep telling myself that those guys must have something I don't have, and that I personally wouldn't have made it any other way.

In reply to sayandarula
8/23/12
sayandarula:
bankerella:

Edit: Sorry, I misread you. The data in this comment refers to all the MBAs in the whole set, not the subset of people with MBAs entering as IBD associates from nontraditional backgrounds. Let me get back to you on that.

+1, and count me in as a bankerella fanboy.

For both our sakes, I hope she's not some pervy wanker old dude pretending to be a girl, that would be so fucked up. Ultimate troll if proven though, I'd take a bow.

In reply to bankerella
8/23/12
bankerella:
ladubs111:

Pie chart of Target, non-target, semi-target so that shit can be finally buried deep for another year. As well as MBA tier break down % so that shit can be buried for 6 months. And maybe for fun # of marriages on average per each level for shits and giggles plz (guessing MD would be like 2, 1st year analyst would be 0)

I like the pie chart idea. Do you guys care about the whole population or just the analysts? I ask because it looks like analysts are more likely to be from a target than MDs.

Do this. Personally, I'd like to see the analyst pie chart. Also, a possible breakdown of how those non-targets may have got there?

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.

8/23/12

Bankerella, do yourself a favor and stop these garbage articles. It's hard for me to fathom why people even use this site for their financial "counseling." Let me provide some readers some justice. The people writing this garbage are mostly non-tenured, and sadly, fueling this craze for investment banking from complete ignorance.

Let me begin by discrediting this author. The author was apparently born in 1906 and apparently, has so called sources who's willing to break the law (not civil but criminal) to release employment records. Let me explain, how impossible or how suicidal this process is. To even attempt will set off red flags, and even, if that person would have been successful, compliance would fry that person's ass. Apparently, the author has no idea how compliance works.

One comment that completely puzzles me is this. "But let's face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise." Back office associates in GS makes three times more than the counterparts. Executive secretaries will make more than this author ever will. Their salary begins around 90k. And general other white collar back office employees can make 3x - 5x more than the peers. Frankly, they all look like winners to me.

For my role, I worked in Goldman Sachs for 3 years. I worked in the front office, a.k.a. client facing roles. Why do I say this? Just to prove a point. Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

I hope have debunked some of these myths of investment bankers. I till this day, still engage in investment banking, but clearly don't agree to the author's opinions.' And I might add, should any future prospect employee would come up with any of this garbage, they would be thrown out.

8/23/12

I'm going to enjoy watching this site tear you a bakers dozen of new assholes. I and half the people on this thread (several of whom I know personally) are in front office.

Please STFU and KYS, thank you

Get busy living

In reply to Nonpartisancritic
8/23/12
Nonpartisancritic:

For my role, I worked in Goldman Sachs for 3 years. I worked in the front office, a.k.a. client facing roles. Why do I say this? Just to prove a point. Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

I hope have debunked some of these myths of investment bankers. I till this day, still engage in investment banking, but clearly don't agree to the author's opinions.' And I might add, should any future prospect employee would come up with any of this garbage, they would be thrown out.

Cool story bro.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

8/23/12

i.can't.wait.

In reply to Nonpartisancritic
8/23/12
Nonpartisancritic:

Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

Oooooo, did you really work at the Goldman Sachs? Please tell us more, you sound like a real hitter.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to huanleshalemei
8/23/12
huanleshalemei:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

thank you, sweetheart

Gee, the whole quote box reminds me inception!

dreams feel real while we're in them, it's only when we wake up that we realize something was actually strange

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to Nonpartisancritic
8/23/12
Nonpartisancritic:

For my role, I worked in Goldman Sachs for 3 years. I worked in the front office, a.k.a. client facing roles. Why do I say this? Just to prove a point. Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

And I was the CEO of Blackstone. On the internet, you can claim to be anybody!

I hope have debunked some of these myths of investment bankers. I till this day, still engage in investment banking, but clearly don't agree to the author's opinions.' And I might add, should any future prospect employee would come up with any of this garbage, they would be thrown out.

My understanding is that Bankerella already works for a top tier firm probably at the VP level. You can tell she works in industry she is a certified user, denoting that she has front office banking experience.

Executive secretaries will make more than this author ever will.

Bankerella's salary is probably in the six figures, so no. Having been an informal financial advisor to a lot of non-finance folks at my firm, I've seen what a lot of these salaries look like, and to be honest, your figure for a starting admin salary is a little bit high.

That's not to say secretaries aren't brilliant or that competence at any level- from digging ditches to making pitchbooks to even being a quant code monkey isn't worthy of respect. But if we're really trying to put numbers on things and foolishly use those numbers as insults, you kinda fell flat on your face.

Let me begin by discrediting this author. The author was apparently born in 1906 and apparently, has so called sources who's willing to break the law (not civil but criminal) to release employment records. Let me explain, how impossible or how suicidal this process is. To even attempt will set off red flags, and even, if that person would have been successful, compliance would fry that person's ass. Apparently, the author has no idea how compliance works.

Actually employment data can be legally used for statistical purposes as long as it doesn't identify anyone. But yes, Bankerella is obviously the kind of person that at least some people in banking would stick their necks out for, otherwise she wouldn't have these records.

If you're going to claim to be a former FO BB employee, act like one. Next time you want to attack someone, at least have your shit together.

8/23/12
8/23/12

What a quality post. You're either hit or miss, Bankarella. Thank you.

http://DollarDrip.com Username: Knowledge Kick

In reply to blastoise
8/23/12
blastoise:

what % are white bald men?

Curious as well. Followup: what are Viagra usage and prostitution solicitation rates among this demographic?

Get busy living

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
8/23/12
IlliniProgrammer:
Nonpartisancritic:

For my role, I worked in Goldman Sachs for 3 years. I worked in the front office, a.k.a. client facing roles. Why do I say this? Just to prove a point. Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

And I was the CEO of Blackstone. On the internet, you can claim to be anybody!

I hope have debunked some of these myths of investment bankers. I till this day, still engage in investment banking, but clearly don't agree to the author's opinions.' And I might add, should any future prospect employee would come up with any of this garbage, they would be thrown out.

My understanding is that Bankerella already works for a top tier firm probably at the VP level. You can tell she works in industry she is a certified user, denoting that she has front office banking experience.

Executive secretaries will make more than this author ever will.

Bankerella's salary is probably in the six figures, so no. Having been an informal financial advisor to a lot of non-finance folks at my firm, I've seen what a lot of these salaries look like, and to be honest, your figure for a starting admin salary is a little bit high.

That's not to say secretaries aren't brilliant or that competence at any level- from digging ditches to making pitchbooks to even being a quant code monkey isn't worthy of respect. But if we're really trying to put numbers on things and foolishly use those numbers as insults, you kinda fell flat on your face.

Let me begin by discrediting this author. The author was apparently born in 1906 and apparently, has so called sources who's willing to break the law (not civil but criminal) to release employment records. Let me explain, how impossible or how suicidal this process is. To even attempt will set off red flags, and even, if that person would have been successful, compliance would fry that person's ass. Apparently, the author has no idea how compliance works.

Actually employment data can be legally used for statistical purposes as long as it doesn't identify anyone. But yes, Bankerella is obviously the kind of person that at least some people in banking would stick their necks out for, otherwise she wouldn't have these records.

If you're going to claim to be a former FO BB employee, act like one. Next time you want to attack someone, at least have your shit together.

I'm starting to think nonpartisancritic might have just successfully trolled us.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

8/23/12

have u ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? what if you were unable to wake from that dream? how would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to Nonpartisancritic
8/23/12
Nonpartisancritic:

Executive secretaries will make more than this author ever will. Their salary begins around 90k.

"My" secretary makes more than 90k. So that, at least, is in line with whatever the hell you just said there. The rest is incomprehensible. Are you saying the back office makes more than front office?

No wait, I got it, folks: Back office is the new buyside.

We could really fuck up some young lives with that motto if we took it far enough.

8/23/12

I met with a partner MD from Goldman a year ago and he told me something pretty cool:

"All of our data shows that 5 years into working for us, there is not a single statistically significant performance difference between target/HYPS school hires and non-target school hires."

He went on to say that the main reason Goldman still focuses on targets/HYPS is that it's much easier, the kids are better at interviewing, the school helps facilitate the process better, ect.

I think intuitively this makes sense. Having gone to a non-target I feel that firms screening and interview process is good enough at firms that you only get in if you're qualified. Overall though, I'd love to see confirmation of this guys statement if possible.

"If you want to succeed in this life, you need to understand that duty comes before rights and that responsibility precedes opportunity."

8/23/12

Bankerella, are you just doing this to get laid?

You probably have 200+ PMs sitting in your box. Surely you'll give in to some banker love..

Am I right or am i write?

8/23/12

in for follow up

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

In reply to SirTradesaLot
8/23/12
SirTradesaLot:
Nonpartisancritic:

Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.

Oooooo, did you really work at the Goldman Sachs? Please tell us more, you sound like a real hitter.

Not sure that's a compliment.
http://www.leveragedsellout.com/2008/06/finance-re...

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

In reply to SirTradesaLot
8/23/12

,

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

In reply to monyet
8/23/12
monyet:
sayandarula:
bankerella:

Edit: Sorry, I misread you. The data in this comment refers to all the MBAs in the whole set, not the subset of people with MBAs entering as IBD associates from nontraditional backgrounds. Let me get back to you on that.

+1, and count me in as a bankerella fanboy.

For both our sakes, I hope she's not some pervy wanker old dude pretending to be a girl, that would be so fucked up. Ultimate troll if proven though, I'd take a bow.

hah, if bankerella makes more posts like these, i will be a fanboy even if she turns out to be the Gimp from Pulp Fiction.

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

8/23/12

This post didn't give me a boner, does that mean I won't make it in banking?

In reply to Tommy Too-toned
8/23/12
Tommy Too-toned:

sitting in your box

nice

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
8/23/12

nonpartisan critic was certainly, certainly partisan towards bankerella. nonpartisan is one of the greatest politically correct words ever to be devised by those who just want continue their flacid habits. i personally do not believe rote application of the word is possible in real life. sure, anyone can be apathetic, even forcefully so, but non-partisan? come on bro! thus i am partisan towards the nonpartisan. my view on nonpartisan is inversely related to the word itself, like interest rates and bond prices.

"Everything comes to those who hustle while they wait."
-Thomas Edison

In reply to WreckEmFinance
8/23/12
WreckEmFinance:

forcefully so ... non-partisan?

I am. FUCK THE PARTIES. Make me king.

Get busy living

8/23/12

pretty sure skeptic just powertrolled the shit

In reply to Going Concern
8/23/12
Going Concern:
huanleshalemei:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
UFOinsider:
Going Concern:
monyet:
Pancakes:
bankerella:
capitalizeddisinterest:

you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know

Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.

It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--

Just watched Total Recall. I went in thinking it was going to be completely shit, but I was pleasantly surprised. Wayyy bigger mind fuck than Inception. I still can't make my mind up about what happened.

Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.

Ha, I know its hard to detect sarcasm in text, but I think it's bloody obvious she's being sarcastic.

Wait, now i'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic by sarcastically calling out her sarcasm - mind blown.

and i think your mind being blow is definitely sarcastic...but if i am also bein sarcastic then that is 4 levels deep of sarcasm, kind of like inception but with wso posts and tiers of sarcasm

Feels like I'm watching Inception again. WTH is going on?

you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling

thank you, sweetheart

Gee, the whole quote box reminds me inception!

dreams feel real while we're in them, it's only when we wake up that we realize something was actually strange

Speaking of Inception, I just watched Total Recall. Thought it was going to suck, but went anyways cause this girl was nagging me. Epic concept, decent movie. I left more mind fucked than I did in Inception. Only Shutter Island is a bigger mind fuck in my opinion.

In reply to monyet
8/23/12
monyet:

Speaking of Inception, I just watched Total Recall. Thought it was going to suck, but went anyways cause this girl was nagging me. Epic concept, decent movie. I left more mind fucked than I did in Inception. Only Shutter Island is a bigger mind fuck in my opinion.

are you referring to the total recall remake that just came out?

because if you are, i'm very close to throwing monkey poo at you. the original total recall made by paul verhoeven is a brilliant sci-fi film, and to make a remake of it or to watch a remake of it just makes me sick. like violently ill.

go watch the original for fuck's sake.

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
8/23/12

I gave you a banana, i hope that makes you feel less inclined to throw monkey shit at me. :) I shall watch the original now as well, just as soon as I get out of Africa (i.e where internet is faster).

8/23/12
In reply to monyet
8/23/12
monyet:

I gave you a banana, i hope that makes you feel less inclined to throw monkey shit at me. :) I shall watch the original now as well, just as soon as I get out of Africa (i.e where internet is faster).

good, that should be your first order of business when you get back to the us of a

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
8/23/12

Excellent Post, and as a Canadian I have to say I laughed at the crack at canadians. Wondering if it was possible to see how many Canadians came from CDN schools or went to US ivy league schools through your dataset? At all levels, analyst/associate/ etc

Thanks

In reply to Grindhouse
8/23/12
Grindhouse:

Excellent Post, and as a Canadian I have to say I laughed at the crack at canadians. Wondering if it was possible to see how many Canadians came from CDN schools or went to US ivy league schools through your dataset? At all levels, analyst/associate/ etc

Thanks

Holy crap. No, all I can see is the name of the undergrad institution. You mean some of these HYPS grads that I thought were good red-blooded Americans are actually Canadian?

Jesus, they really are everywhere. I wonder how long I'll last now that I know.

I can see it now: one day I'll just be at my desk, working away, and I'll look up to find two suspiciously friendly men smiling down at me (one white and one ethnically indeterminate, naturally, since every portrayal of Canada has to accurately represent its rich diversity and history). They'll ask me to join them for a beer. And that'll be the last anyone ever sees or hears from me again on this side of the border. My coworkers will say, "I didn't question it. Those two guys just looked so friendly and harmless."

And six months later, in a skyscraper in Toronto, one more smiling, good-natured, peppy, freshly-minted Canadian will take her seat and begin Day 1 of her new life as a cog in the secret war on America.

In reply to bankerella
8/23/12
bankerella:
Grindhouse:

Excellent Post, and as a Canadian I have to say I laughed at the crack at canadians. Wondering if it was possible to see how many Canadians came from CDN schools or went to US ivy league schools through your dataset? At all levels, analyst/associate/ etc

Thanks

Holy crap. No, all I can see is the name of the undergrad institution. You mean some of these HYPS grads that I thought were good red-blooded Americans are actually Canadian?

Jesus, they really are everywhere. I wonder how long I'll last now that I know.

I can see it now: one day I'll just be at my desk, working away, and I'll look up to find two suspiciously friendly men smiling down at me (one white and one ethnically indeterminate, naturally, since every portrayal of Canada has to accurately represent its rich diversity and history). They'll ask me to join them for a beer. And that'll be the last anyone ever sees or hears from me again on this side of the border. My coworkers will say, "I didn't question it. Those two guys just looked so friendly and harmless."

And six months later, in a skyscraper in Toronto, one more smiling, good-natured, peppy, freshly-minted Canadian will take her seat and begin Day 1 of her new life as a cog in the secret war on America.

o.O .....paging Alex Jones!

Get busy living

8/24/12

Bankerella, though I still think you're a female douchebag but this is a great post. Thanks for sharing and all the effort. I'd have given you a SB if I didn't spend all my credit throwing monkey shit at you. Very nicely done.

In reply to fifteen
8/24/12
fifteen:

Bankerella, though I still think you're a female douchebag but this is a great post. Thanks for sharing and all the effort. I'd have given you a SB if I didn't spend all my credit throwing monkey shit at you. Very nicely done.

Thank you. This is actually a pretty substantial effort on my part (and, to be honest, on the part of some immensely underpaid badasses in Mumbai. Or maybe Hyderabad. I forget. Either way: total props. Thank god IIT only has room for so many geniuses.)

But, to be very clear, I am not doing this out of the goodness of my heart. I'm not exactly known for my generosity. I'm doing this in order to add enough value so that I can troll freely while avoiding Patrick's ban-hammer for a little while longer. It's all about the give and take, eh?

In reply to Going Concern
8/24/12
Going Concern:
monyet:

Speaking of Inception, I just watched Total Recall. Thought it was going to suck, but went anyways cause this girl was nagging me. Epic concept, decent movie. I left more mind fucked than I did in Inception. Only Shutter Island is a bigger mind fuck in my opinion.

are you referring to the total recall remake that just came out?

because if you are, i'm very close to throwing monkey poo at you. the original total recall made by paul verhoeven is a brilliant sci-fi film, and to make a remake of it or to watch a remake of it just makes me sick. like violently ill.

go watch the original for fuck's sake.

just you wait until the remake of robocop.

8/24/12

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

-No comment-

In reply to donkeymoney
8/24/12
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

And who the fuck are you?

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

In reply to donkeymoney
8/24/12
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

8/24/12

I know I saw someone post somewhere about Masters in Finance degrees and advanced degrees other than MBA...

Is this because to an extent it doesn't help? or just because the degree is just now starting to gain momentum and its still relatively new?

Question for the data set though... Exit opps from Analyst programs MM IBD vs BB IBD.. Mainly percentage of analysts going to PE. And I am also curious about average work experience going into an MBA program preferably just Stanford and Harvard, though I am sure everyone else wants Wharton also.

GRACIASSSS

In reply to calikid3820
8/24/12
calikid3820:

I know I saw someone post somewhere about Masters in Finance degrees and advanced degrees other than MBA...

Is this because to an extent it doesn't help? or just because the degree is just now starting to gain momentum and its still relatively new?

Question for the data set though... Exit opps from Analyst programs MM IBD vs BB IBD.. Mainly percentage of analysts going to PE. And I am also curious about average work experience going into an MBA program preferably just Stanford and Harvard, though I am sure everyone else wants Wharton also.

GRACIASSSS

Getting actual names/lengths of pre-MBA experience for those MBAs who weren't analysts is going to be spotty (not to mention a pain in the ass). So that's going to be (as they say) "lower on my priority list". However, I can do average age upon entering MBA program; it's a decent proxy for years of work experience pre-MBA.

Exit opps: already looking at breakdown between MM IBD, BB IBD, PE, VC, HF, other asset management, consulting, industry, corp dev, etc.

In reply to bankerella
8/24/12
bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

Zoom-Zoom-Zoom

Also, Bankerella: I've been hard on you in the past. And I don't regret it - a leader never apologizes. But I'm damn proud of how far you've come. Keep it up, kid.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

8/24/12

Testosterone levels, # of female conquests before age 20 - broken down by highest title attained as a banker.

Grga Pitic

In reply to bankerella
8/24/12
bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

Gender Studies? European Literature? Film Studies?

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

In reply to duffmt6
8/24/12
duffmt6:
bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

Gender Studies? European Literature? Film Studies?

The guy's a math major.

Sorry for blowing your cover, Donkeymoney, but the way you set 'em up, I couldn't resist knocking 'em down. Anyway, world's full of math majors. Hardly the end of the world.

In reply to bankerella
8/24/12
bankerella:
duffmt6:
bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

Gender Studies? European Literature? Film Studies?

The guy's a math major.

Sorry for blowing your cover, Donkeymoney, but the way you set 'em up, I couldn't resist knocking 'em down. Anyway, world's full of math majors. Hardly the end of the world.

Considering that people on this forum consider engineering 'manly' as opposed to jobs where muscle is used, I'm not sure the definition of 'cool' is what one would normally expect?

Not taking sides on any issue, just pointing out the audience...

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
8/24/12
UFOinsider:
bankerella:
duffmt6:
bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...

You're not cool!

Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.

Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?

In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?

Gender Studies? European Literature? Film Studies?

The guy's a math major.

Sorry for blowing your cover, Donkeymoney, but the way you set 'em up, I couldn't resist knocking 'em down. Anyway, world's full of math majors. Hardly the end of the world.

Considering that people on this forum consider engineering 'manly' as opposed to jobs where muscle is used, I'm not sure the definition of 'cool' is what one would normally expect?

Not taking sides on any issue, just pointing out the audience...

Hahaha...don't take it personally, bankerella. Just that, seeing you write, "baller" and "tits and ass" seems like an unnecessary effort to show off to the crowd of bro-apes here.

As far as defining "cool"...a very nerdy thing to do...I would say it's about how much fun you have on a regular basis and also, being young or young-at-heart.

(To b-ella: yes, I would like to be where you are in your career, no doubt making 5 times as much as me. I like that title, "The Arbiter of Cool"! I'm gonna run with it.)

-No comment-

8/24/12

'More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.'

I have seen this a lot too.

'Ditto Asians/Indians (would take some doing since I don't have ethnicity data in the set, but could be done).'

Asians do become analysts. Indians do become Associates +. But both groups are ridiculously overqualified when they are selected. Its also more common in the States - they are a needle in a haystack when it comes to the UK/European offices.

From what I have seen, the people who get the furthest usually have a unique route and are not 'the run of the mill'. There are exceptions however.

In reply to donkeymoney
8/24/12
donkeymoney:

As far as defining "cool"...a very nerdy thing to do...I would say it's about how much fun you have on a regular basis and also, being young or young-at-heart.

Soo, is nerdy to define but still attempts to. OH.THE.IRONY. All hail, the Arbitor of Cool!

Dude, any chick that hosts a night out at a strip club is cool.

Get busy living

8/24/12

How many analysts are from liberal arts colleges (Amherst, Williams, Middlebury etc)?

In reply to donkeymoney
8/24/12
donkeymoney:

Hahaha...don't take it personally, bankerella. Just that, seeing you write, "baller" and "tits and ass" seems like an unnecessary effort to show off to the crowd of bro-apes here.

As far as defining "cool"...a very nerdy thing to do...I would say it's about how much fun you have on a regular basis and also, being young or young-at-heart.

(To b-ella: yes, I would like to be where you are in your career, no doubt making 5 times as much as me. I like that title, "The Arbiter of Cool"! I'm gonna run with it.)

Show off what, kid? You need a dick in order to win a dick-measuring contest. In case it's not already clear, I got no dick. I'm not even in the contest. I'm hanging out in the bleachers, doing my own thing. If anybody's looking over at me and getting worried about how I'm acting, he needs to up his game.

Also, you got the reference wrong. It's "Ass and Titties". Admittedly, the song was before your time, and the lyrics aren't exactly the deepest, but it remains an excellent piece by a great unsung hero of the entertainment world, a piece that was influential enough on my worldview to earn it a spot on my short playlist at work. I can (and do) blast that shit at the office (albeit very late/early) without anyone saying a damn thing, so I'd sure as hell be allowed to say it on an anonymous internet forum.

I don't really care if that categorizes me as an ape or a bro or whatever.

In reply to bankerella
8/24/12

bankerella:
donkeymoney:

Hahaha...don't take it personally, bankerella. Just that, seeing you write, "baller" and "tits and ass" seems like an unnecessary effort to show off to the crowd of bro-apes here.

As far as defining "cool"...a very nerdy thing to do...I would say it's about how much fun you have on a regular basis and also, being young or young-at-heart.

(To b-ella: yes, I would like to be where you are in your career, no doubt making 5 times as much as me. I like that title, "The Arbiter of Cool"! I'm gonna run with it.)

Show off what, kid? You need a dick in order to win a dick-measuring contest. In case it's not already clear, I got no dick. I'm not even in the contest. I'm hanging out in the bleachers, doing my own thing. If anybody's looking over at me and getting worried about how I'm acting, he needs to up his game.

Also, you got the reference wrong. It's "Ass and Titties". Admittedly, the song was before your time, and the lyrics aren't exactly the deepest, but it remains an excellent piece by a great unsung hero of the entertainment world, a piece that was influential enough on my worldview to earn it a spot on my short playlist at work. I can (and do) blast that shit at the office (albeit very late/early) without anyone saying a damn thing, so I'd sure as hell be allowed to say it on an anonymous internet forum.

I don't really care if that categorizes me as an ape or a bro or whatever.

You forgot about the big booty bitches.

8/24/12

Quick question, whats the break down of non-US schools in the sample?

8/24/12

But let's face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise.

Any evidence on this one?
Seems hard to believe.

In reply to bankerella
8/24/12
bankerella:

Also, you got the reference wrong. It's "Ass and Titties".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zhXj--JJYw&feature...

Enjoy

Get busy living

In reply to FreezePops
8/24/12
FreezePops:

But let's face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise.

Any evidence on this one?
Seems hard to believe.

Yep. I was thinking of one poor douchebag in particular when I wrote that. Friend of mine. (He's not at Ameriprise now, but at a firm of similar... uh... quality.) At one point in life we were in the same place, same time, same general quality of intellect, douchitude, and background. In fact, he taught me a thing or two about being a douche.

Long story short, we made different choices and our paths diverged quite a lot. Now, we all know that compensation doesn't matter and that nobody cares about money, it's who you are inside, yadda yadda. But, jesus, the guy's a decade into his career and he's never broken six figures all-in. (I, on the other hand, started six figures right after undergrad and since then have never had to work for five. I know others weren't as lucky. Right place, right time, I guess.)

If you were to look at our resumes or look us up on LinkedIn today, you might be hard-pressed to say who's done better. The guy who fixes your printer and sets up your monitors at GS has probably got a LinkedIn page saying he's a tenured VP of strategic operations at GS.

I don't blame the guy; the game's all about spin, right?

The point of this analysis, though, is to exclude spin and narrow the sample down to the relatively small percentage of actual bankers. Make sense?

In reply to monyet
8/24/12
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

We destroy them.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/24/12

ahaha beauty donkeymoney. but man shes right you gotta stop 'crowning yourself arbiter' of things

bankerella i think you will eventually crown yourself queen of leaving banking to write a best selling series of slightly verbose yet punchy and hip yet business savvy self help books for female 20 somethings who hang out at starbucks but want something more. the first one could be called 'bankerella: how i traded lululemons and a smile for a pantsuit and wads of cash' followed by 'bankerella 2: how to outsmart everyone you meet and make friends'

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

We destroy them.

We don't destroy them in the least, but I'm seriously confused about the veiled antagonism towards Wharton in this post. Sure I study "business" (I actually receive a B.S. in Economics instead a B.B.A despite learning very little economics while folks in the College of Arts and Sciences receive a B.A. in economics despite learning MORE theoretical economics - whaddya know) and you studied economics or applied math or english or whatever. But that doesn't suddenly mean that you came out of undergrad with far superior abilities than any Wharton undergraduate does.

I don't have a source and this is probably way over inflated data from the undergraduate admissions dean, but they make a point of stating in campus visits and information sessions that 75%-80% of undergrads here at Wharton generally don't go for an MBA. I'm guessing they used some sort of alumni surveys for that, but make of it what you will. I'm interested in seeing if Bankrella's data confirms this.

I appreciate you taking the time to do some real data mining Bankrella. I look forward to seeing what turns up.

In reply to Dhanam
8/25/12
Dhanam:
BlackHat:
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

We destroy them.

We don't destroy them in the least, but I'm seriously confused about the veiled antagonism towards Wharton in this post. Sure I study "business" (I actually receive a B.S. in Economics instead a B.B.A despite learning very little economics while folks in the College of Arts and Sciences receive a B.A. in economics despite learning MORE theoretical economics - whaddya know) and you studied economics or applied math or english or whatever. But that doesn't suddenly mean that you came out of undergrad with far superior abilities than any Wharton undergraduate does.

I don't have a source and this is probably way over inflated data from the undergraduate admissions dean, but they make a point of stating in campus visits and information sessions that 75%-80% of undergrads here at Wharton generally don't go for an MBA. I'm guessing they used some sort of alumni surveys for that, but make of it what you will. I'm interested in seeing if Bankrella's data confirms this.

I appreciate you taking the time to do some real data mining Bankrella. I look forward to seeing what turns up.

thank you for being a voice of reason

Get busy living

8/25/12
Dhanam:
BlackHat:
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

We destroy them.

We don't destroy them in the least, but I'm seriously confused about the veiled antagonism towards Wharton in this post. Sure I study "business" (I actually receive a B.S. in Economics instead a B.B.A despite learning very little economics while folks in the College of Arts and Sciences receive a B.A. in economics despite learning MORE theoretical economics - whaddya know) and you studied economics or applied math or english or whatever. But that doesn't suddenly mean that you came out of undergrad with far superior abilities than any Wharton undergraduate does.

I don't have a source and this is probably way over inflated data from the undergraduate admissions dean, but they make a point of stating in campus visits and information sessions that 75%-80% of undergrads here at Wharton generally don't go for an MBA. I'm guessing they used some sort of alumni surveys for that, but make of it what you will. I'm interested in seeing if Bankrella's data confirms this.

I appreciate you taking the time to do some real data mining Bankrella. I look forward to seeing what turns up.

Nah, I wasn't being antagonistic, it's just my writing style and I didn't want to come across as asking straight up if it was better cause that would seem arrogant. I love it here, just curious that's all.

Dhanam, looks like you are a freshman, just curious as to how you formed your opinion on whether we 'destroy' them or not. Blackhat is in the industry so he'd be in a better position to know whether we 'destroy' them or not - what do you base your statement on? If you are still a freshman at Wharton and have never been on the street, then you know as much as I do, which is what people at Wharton say and second hand anecdotal evidence from the street, but I wanted to see what the hard data says. That's why I was asking.

In reply to monyet
8/25/12
monyet:

Nah, I wasn't being antagonistic, it's just my writing style and I didn't want to come across as asking straight up if it was better cause that would seem arrogant. I love it here, just curious that's all.

But Dhanam, are you in the industry ? Because Blackhat is so he'd be in a better position to know whether we destroy them or not. That's why I was asking, If you are still at Wharton and not on the street, then you know as much as I do, which is what people at Wharton say, and the anecdotal evidence from the street, but I wanted to see what the hard data says.

I'll give a more legitimate answer, haha. Wharton UG on average is not going to be prepared for whatever job they are applying for unless it's investment banking, but no matter what job in the financial services sector we're talking about, 9 times out of 10 the Wharton student is going to have a much easier time hitting the ground running (though most big banks and consultancies don't make you do that, hence the fact that this effect wears away quickly in the mainstream job titles), and if you spend any time at all looking at the breakdowns at different investment banks, hedge funds, PE, etc. you will notice that Penn has a ridiculously consistent track record of delivering the most people to these businesses. Sure, you may say that Penn has like 8-10k students, but there's a reason why many firms recruit exclusively from Wharton and Harvard, rather than HYPS or something like that. As a younger guy I couldn't go to a networking event or some sort of career-related gathering without half the room being Penn people from my class or classes in the vicinity of mine. The presence on Wall Street is just absurd relatively speaking, and you do notice at the junior level that these kids have a very noticeable advantage over someone who came out of Brown after studying Greek Mythology...

Of course we call it a "BS in Economics" for a reason, as the joke goes, but that doesn't mean we didn't still get a decent 4-year job training program by going to Wharton (and to a lesser extent, Penn in general). Though I think this topic is probably a waste of time considering that the advantage goes away rather quickly after the junior levels, as it's really not hard to learn to do good work as a banker or consultant or whatever. And just by going to Wharton you can't expect the education to turn you into some buy-side stock picking rock star, because it most certainly won't teach you the first thing about investing. Some education on private equity and other number-centric approaches are taught though which I'm sure is another leg up on our Zeus expert in Providence.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:

As a younger guy I couldn't go to a networking event or some sort of career-related gathering without half the room being Penn people from my class or classes in the vicinity of mine.

For real. No event runs out of pizza faster than the networking/career events do...

In reply to monyet
8/25/12
monyet:
Dhanam:
BlackHat:
monyet:

There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?

We destroy them.

We don't destroy them in the least, but I'm seriously confused about the veiled antagonism towards Wharton in this post. Sure I study "business" (I actually receive a B.S. in Economics instead a B.B.A despite learning very little economics while folks in the College of Arts and Sciences receive a B.A. in economics despite learning MORE theoretical economics - whaddya know) and you studied economics or applied math or english or whatever. But that doesn't suddenly mean that you came out of undergrad with far superior abilities than any Wharton undergraduate does.

I don't have a source and this is probably way over inflated data from the undergraduate admissions dean, but they make a point of stating in campus visits and information sessions that 75%-80% of undergrads here at Wharton generally don't go for an MBA. I'm guessing they used some sort of alumni surveys for that, but make of it what you will. I'm interested in seeing if Bankrella's data confirms this.

I appreciate you taking the time to do some real data mining Bankrella. I look forward to seeing what turns up.

Nah, I wasn't being antagonistic, it's just my writing style and I didn't want to come across as asking straight up if it was better cause that would seem arrogant. I love it here, just curious that's all.

Dhanam, looks like you are a freshman, just curious as to how you formed your opinion on whether we 'destroy' them or not. Blackhat is in the industry so he'd be in a better position to know whether we 'destroy' them or not - what do you base your statement on? If you are still a freshman at Wharton and have never been on the street, then you know as much as I do, which is what people at Wharton say and second hand anecdotal evidence from the street, but I wanted to see what the hard data says. That's why I was asking.

Yeah, I just finished my freshman year and basically am clueless - my comment was supposed to be more of a poor segway from the post I quoted than any kind of authoritative answer based on real data or experience. Probably was a little too defensive myself, and I'm also pretty interested in the hard data as well. Thanks for your post as well BlackHat.

8/25/12

Don't know why but whenever bankerella posts something, i have the impression that she seriously needs to get laid.

In reply to Zafrynex
8/25/12
Zafrynex:

Don't know why but whenever bankerella posts something, i have the impression that she seriously needs to get laid.

I've never understood what dudes are trying to say when they say this to a girl. Like most chicks (with the right age and looks) in most cities, I got dick on tap. Dick is a public good. If there's some chick out there not getting enough dick, it's her own damn fault. Like an anorexic not letting herself get enough to eat. (Anasexic?)

Don't believe me, check Wikipedia: "In economics, a public good is a good that is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous in that individuals cannot be effectively excluded from use and where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others. Examples of public goods include fresh air, knowledge, lighthouses, national defence, flood control systems, dick, and street lighting.

Word.

In reply to bankerella
8/25/12
bankerella:

where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to bankerella
8/25/12

double

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/25/12

Very interesting thread...a couple of points:

-I want to believe the non-target thing but I think IlliniProgrammer brings up a valid point about the age of the sample. The average birth year may be 1975 which is firmly in the era of on campus recruiting and the like, but that still leaves a large part of the sample that is much older and was hired at a different time when banks didnt all recruit at the same 5 schools.
-Kind of a side point mentioned in this thread, but a high-end secretary that works for somebody very rich makes way more then 90k and does in fact make more then most on this board ever will. I have worked with secretaries for billionaire-types that i have no doubt made seven figures and travel the World for free. And in terms of office politics they wield a tremendous amount of power. So let's not hate on secretaries.
-I am trying desperately to ignore the voice in my head that questions the possibility of this data set actually existing without someone eventually ruining their career for stealing it...i hope whoever got this stuff covered their ass.

In reply to Bondarb
8/25/12
Bondarb:

-Kind of a side point mentioned in this thread, but a high-end secretary that works for somebody very rich makes way more then 90k and does in fact make more then most on this board ever will. I have worked with secretaries for billionaire-types that i have no doubt made seven figures and travel the World for free. And in terms of office politics they wield a tremendous amount of power. So let's not hate on secretaries.

I split a secretary with two other guys, one senior to me but the other slightly junior. Our secretary makes at least 30% more than the junior guy whose phone calls she has to screen. These bitches get paid, and I won't opine on whether or not they deserve it (we're very low maintenance, I assume it's a terribly stressful job in larger places or working for a prick of a boss), but I do have to comment on my hatred for her political views really quickly. She despises us for being "greedy bankers" (lol) and thinks our bonuses are outrageous and Obama is a god-send and we don't deserve the compensation, yet she collectively gets 15% from our bonuses and unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:
bankerella:

where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.

In determining whether dick really is a public good, you have to look at it from the point of view of consumption, not ownership.

Take fresh air. While each molecule of fresh air can only be used by one person at a time, collectively the number of molecules of fresh air on the market overwhelm the possible demand to such an extent that fresh air literally becomes a public good.

You may very well be an exception, like those o2 oxygen bars you see in airports and in Vegas, but that doesn't mean that there's any scarcity of regular old dick out there, free for the taking. In other words, it's still a public good.

Any of you slick Chicago School economists want to step in and knock the chip off my shoulder here?

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:

Of course we call it a "BS in Economics" for a reason, as the joke goes

Here's how the joke goes:
An Economist is someone who knows a hundred and one ways of making love, but has never met a woman.

8/25/12

Generic dick may be readily available for most women, but actual good sex is not. So while it may not be accurate to say that some girls "need to get laid" it is 100% accurate that many women are in desperate need of getting fucked competently. It is a sad commentary on men that i'd say like 30% of women dont even know that they have never had good sex.

In reply to GS
8/25/12
BlackHat:

Of course we call it a "BS in Economics" for a reason, as the joke goes

Here's how the joke goes:
An Economist is someone who knows a hundred and one ways of making love, but has never met a woman.

A physicist, a chemist and an economist are trapped on a deserted island, and they have a large crate of canned food without an obvious way to open the cans.

The physicist suggests, "Let's tie vines together, throw them over the branch of the coconut tree and use coconuts to force open the cans by bouncing the coconuts off the cans at the correct angle."

The chemist responded, "That's absurd. Let's use the sea water, some sea weed and the sun to corrode the tops of the cans off."

The economist averred, "You're both wrong. Assume you have a can opener."

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to Bondarb
8/25/12
Bondarb:

Generic dick may be readily available for most women, but actual good sex is not. So while it may not be accurate to say that some girls "need to get laid" it is 100% accurate that many women are in desperate need of getting fucked competently. It is a sad commentary on men that i'd say like 30% of women dont even know that they have never had good sex.

lol, 30%...no comment.

The Auto Show

In reply to GS
8/25/12
BlackHat:

Of course we call it a "BS in Economics" for a reason, as the joke goes

Here's how the joke goes:
An Economist is someone who knows a hundred and one ways of making love, but has never met a woman.

"Harvard kids have read about it, but never seen it. Penn kids have seen it, but never read about it. Brown kids haven't and never will see it OR read about it."

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:

unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.

you pay your secretary over $350k? Seems excessive, especially for someone you don't like. I thought my last secretary was overpaid at just over $100k.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occup...

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12

Double

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:
bankerella:

where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.

Curious, by "they" do you actually mean "you"?

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to bankerella
8/25/12
bankerella:
BlackHat:
bankerella:

where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.

In determining whether dick really is a public good, you have to look at it from the point of view of consumption, not ownership.

Take fresh air. While each molecule of fresh air can only be used by one person at a time, collectively the number of molecules of fresh air on the market overwhelm the possible demand to such an extent that fresh air literally becomes a public good.

You may very well be an exception, like those o2 oxygen bars you see in airports and in Vegas, but that doesn't mean that there's any scarcity of regular old dick out there, free for the taking. In other words, it's still a public good.

Any of you slick Chicago School economists want to step in and knock the chip off my shoulder here?

Strong argument. The single largest disadvantage of being a straight man is that no matter how good your game is, you can't count on getting laid any time you want. Even if you could, you have to work for it a little bit. Women can walk into a bar and ask some random guy, "hey, wanna fuck?". 9 times out of 10, the answer will be yes. Rock stars, famous athletes, and movie stars might be able to pull that off, but definitely not some random guy in finance. Straight women and gay men have it much the same in that they can get laid (for free) anytime they choose.

So, yes, dick is a public good and pussy is a scarce commodity.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to SirTradesaLot
8/25/12
SirTradesaLot:
bankerella:
BlackHat:
bankerella:

where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others.

To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.

In determining whether dick really is a public good, you have to look at it from the point of view of consumption, not ownership.

Take fresh air. While each molecule of fresh air can only be used by one person at a time, collectively the number of molecules of fresh air on the market overwhelm the possible demand to such an extent that fresh air literally becomes a public good.

You may very well be an exception, like those o2 oxygen bars you see in airports and in Vegas, but that doesn't mean that there's any scarcity of regular old dick out there, free for the taking. In other words, it's still a public good.

Any of you slick Chicago School economists want to step in and knock the chip off my shoulder here?

Strong argument. The single largest disadvantage of being a straight man is that no matter how good your game is, you can't count on getting laid any time you want. Even if you could, you have to work for it a little bit. Women can walk into a bar and ask some random guy, "hey, wanna fuck?". 9 times out of 10, the answer will be yes. Rock stars, famous athletes, and movie stars might be able to pull that off, but definitely not some random guy in finance. Straight women and gay men have it much the same in that they can get laid (for free) anytime they choose.

So, yes, dick is a public good and pussy is a scarce commodity.

there is a big difference in merely serving as the local cum dumpster and getting done right.

In reply to SirTradesaLot
8/25/12
SirTradesaLot:
BlackHat:

unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.

you pay your secretary over $350k? Seems excessive, especially for someone you don't like. I thought my last secretary was overpaid at just over $100k.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occup...

Yup

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to BlackHat
8/25/12
BlackHat:
SirTradesaLot:
BlackHat:

unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.

you pay your secretary over $350k? Seems excessive, especially for someone you don't like. I thought my last secretary was overpaid at just over $100k.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occup...

Yup

Be careful now a lot of kids are going to be asking if they can be your secretary.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to melvvvar
8/25/12
melvvvar:

there is a big difference in merely serving as the local cum dumpster and getting done right.

Maybe so, but it's probably difficult to tell in advance who falls in what category.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to SirTradesaLot
8/25/12
SirTradesaLot:
BlackHat:
SirTradesaLot:
BlackHat:

unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.

you pay your secretary over $350k? Seems excessive, especially for someone you don't like. I thought my last secretary was overpaid at just over $100k.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occup...

Yup

Be careful now a lot of kids are going to be asking if they can be your secretary.

Trust me, they don't want to be her. Plus she's been working for my boss for like 20+ years and has massive droopage. We don't want massive droopage around here do we?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/25/12
8/25/12

the most expensive sex is free sex

Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
In reply to melvvvar
8/25/12