Mod Note: Throwback Thursday: this post originally went up on 8/22/12.
The most common arguments on WSO are about what it really takes to make it to Wall Street... and then what your options are if you get there. Working professionals come here to engage in witty banter and relax, only to spend half our time here debunking bullshit and writing advice based on our (limited) personal experiences.
How can we cut to the chase and give these kids hard data on which to base their life decisions, as well as save ourselves some time so we can get back to important things like ass and titties?
The answer came to me as I was googling a few ex-coworkers from a long time ago, just to see how they’ve been doing and whether I’ve done better or worse (something people do far more than they’d like to admit). The data is out there.
Yeah, anyone with enough connections could throw a data set together from LinkedIn. But let’s face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise. We don’t want them in the data set. We want certified ballers only, right?
Let’s just say that, thanks to some HR friends and a truly brilliant data miner, I now have a high-quality data set that contains details of education and career path (over the past 5-10 years) of hundreds of bulge-bracket investment bankers at every level from analyst to MD. (Yes, it has names and such as well, but obviously I’m not sharing those.) It is longitudinal, meaning that it follows these bankers from a certain point in their careers up until today. It also gives a sense as to comparative compensation levels, though no dollar figures there.
Just looking at the initial cut of the data, I see lots of surprises. (The last 10-15% of the data is still being compiled, so I’ll throw hard numbers behind these statements when I have them.)
- A lot of these people did their undergrad at good state schools. Far more than I expected, at every level. Maybe I shouldn’t worship quite so intently at the HYPS altar.
- Far more analysts got a direct promotion to associate than I expected.
- Canadians are everywhere. Some kind of secret fucking society. (Hey Canadians, if you love socialism so much, why did you cross the border to fuel the capitalist juggernaut? How’s that Visa status looking, by the way? Better keep your nose clean or you’ll be back in fucking Saskatchewan cutting lumber with your six brothers before you can say “Tim Hortons”.)
- Late career is more brutal than it looks. People who leave the firm over 50 almost always take a big step down. People who stay are either the 1/1000 who can ride that bull all the way to the top... or they gradually get put out to pasture. From what I can tell in the data set, it doesn’t look voluntary (i.e., comp/dealflow starts to wane, then two years later they’re either playing poker or they start a boutique shop with two buddies and an analyst and have no dealflow).
- More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.
- The concept of a two-year analyst program is just that: a concept. The actual tenure of people hired into traditional two-year programs varies from that ideal by quite a bit.
There are more surprises here, but I’ll get to them. Let me ask you: what sort of queries should we run on this to answer some of the eternal debates here?
Some examples of questions we could answer:
- Average/max age upon entering business school?
- Is business school necessary?
- What percent of people who start a two-year analyst program actually finish it?
- What percent of analysts actually accomplish a 2+2 banking/PE combo?
- Which b-schools will get you there? (So far, this looks pretty traditional. I think the point may go to Brady on this one.)
- How many chicks make it to MD, and is comp similar to males?
- How many chicks make it past analyst? Associate?
- Ditto Asians/Indians (would take some doing since I don't have ethnicity data in the set, but could be done).
- On average, how many Wall Street firms do people work for over their careers?
Thoughts?
EDIT: By the way, don't bother asking a question if you're not ready for the answer. This hasn't happened yet, but I fully expect someone to start dissing the data if the answer isn't what they want/expect to hear. (This ain't my first time at that particular rodeo, kids.)
Going deep into sampling methodology would risk burning my source, not to mention myself. So folks will have to take me at my word that the sampling method is sufficiently strong. If you don't take me at my word, don't ask the question.
The entire point of statistical sampling is to cut through existing bias, not confirm it. So if you just want some stats to confirm your belief, it's probably easier to just play senior banker (or WSO monkey) and make up some stats that sound right to you.
by 30, 90% washout rate. among 20 personal IBD acquaintances, 2 made it to MD, 9 washed out at VP/associate level, the rest left as analysts. two left before their first year was up. VP GS salary, around 500K at the peak in '07. asians and indians don't do well in the long run. biggest successes skipped bschool.
Where is everyone going?
If you can do those two, that'll be great.
An insightful bankerella post........................what's happening here
There is an urban myth at Wharton that you don't beed an MBA after Wharton undergrad, does your data back that up ? Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there isn't much point in going to an undergrad business school. How do Wharton undergrands compare to hyps grads (especially the HYPS grads that went back from an MBA) ?
Now there's a very good set of questions. I'm aware of that myth on the street as well.
My hunch from personal experience is that Wharton undergrads do become direct-promotes at higher rates but peter out in mid-career. (However, one thing that this exercise has shown me is that years of personal observations are still nowhere near as accurate as a real data set, because we tend to observe and remember things that confirm the beliefs we started with.)
There is a substantial subset of Wharton undergrads in this sample, so I'll look at 'em and tell you guys what I find.
Thx. Pls do
We destroy them.
We don't destroy them in the least, but I'm seriously confused about the veiled antagonism towards Wharton in this post. Sure I study "business" (I actually receive a B.S. in Economics instead a B.B.A despite learning very little economics while folks in the College of Arts and Sciences receive a B.A. in economics despite learning MORE theoretical economics - whaddya know) and you studied economics or applied math or english or whatever. But that doesn't suddenly mean that you came out of undergrad with far superior abilities than any Wharton undergraduate does.
I don't have a source and this is probably way over inflated data from the undergraduate admissions dean, but they make a point of stating in campus visits and information sessions that 75%-80% of undergrads here at Wharton generally don't go for an MBA. I'm guessing they used some sort of alumni surveys for that, but make of it what you will. I'm interested in seeing if Bankrella's data confirms this.
I appreciate you taking the time to do some real data mining Bankrella. I look forward to seeing what turns up.
Pie chart of Target, non-target, semi-target so that shit can be finally buried deep for another year. As well as MBA tier break down % so that shit can be buried for 6 months. And maybe for fun # of marriages on average per each level for shits and giggles plz (guessing MD would be like 2, 1st year analyst would be 0)
I like the pie chart idea. Do you guys care about the whole population or just the analysts? I ask because it looks like analysts are more likely to be from a target than MDs. This could be a function of the fact that recruiting standards (and percent/number of Americans going to college) have changed a lot over the last twenty years.
Also, please, somebody throw me a clue on semi-targets. WTF is a semi-target? I've been peripherally involved with recruiting in one way or another for my whole fucking career, and I still don't comprehend the semi-target distinction.
Target school: has a team of alumni working at the firm who go back to recruit. We do EISs and talks, conduct first rounds on campus, and generally try to get as many of our people in the door as possible, whether summer or full-time.
Non-target school: Maybe a resume drop, maybe nothing. We don't go there, we don't have an alumni team, etc.
Semi-target school: Everything in between? Or we might go do first-rounds there in order to round out our full-time program?
Someone break it down for me in a way my miniscule reptilian brain can comprehend. Or upload a list. Or just admit that nobody really knows how to define semi-target, and that the whole population of colleges is a spectrum with HYPS on one end and DeVry on the other.
Ya target can be somewhat classified but non target i dont know neither. Best best would be just use that shit US news rankings for semi target and non target and just filter it from like top 40 or 50 minus the generally accepted target schools names as semi target and rest as others.
Do this. Personally, I'd like to see the analyst pie chart. Also, a possible breakdown of how those non-targets may have got there?
for the pie chart: how about a level-by-level breakdown? ie one for Analysts, one for Associates, etc. etc.
for the pie chart: how about a level-by-level breakdown? ie one for Analysts, one for Associates, etc. etc.
for the pie chart: how about a level-by-level breakdown? ie one for Analysts, one for Associates, etc. etc.
haha
Riddle me this...how many people leave the biz to open places like Double or Muffin?
would be awesome if the pie chart is just analyst level. Most people here don't even want to make it up to MD on the sell-side.
S&T, ER pie charts would be cool also if you had the data
Are you only looking at IBD or does it include other areas of the bank? If including other areas, I would love to see if Quants have lower career ceilings than others. Most people believe this to be true.
you got some balls dropping the gloves at canadians like that. of all the different groups trying to get visas, youre gunna chirp canadians? word to the wise if i wanted to keep my nose clean and i met someone with 6 lumberjack brothers i would probably shut up. dont ever again let me catch you speaking the words tim hortons... we have people everywhere, now you know
Yeah, the issue there is that every other group getting visas stands out, they can't truly infiltrate. Even if they look like us, there's an accent. But the Canadians -- shit, man, they're deep cover. You think "Oh, I only know like two Canadians, it's no big deal." But then once you actually get your hands on real data, you realize that there are thousands of them out there on the street, flashing those Canadian hand signals at each other, doing their dirty little Canadian deals, promoting Canadians, hiring Canadians.
It's a vast fucking conspiracy. Fortunately, I caught and tortured one of them by holding a Timbit under his nose until he caved. In between bouts of weeping and repeating, "God Save the Queen," he finally told me how Canadians recognize each other. Look for a tiny red dot on the--
double
Clearly, you have a right to say who can work in the US and who can't, seeing as the US wouldn't be half as great if it weren't for you. I'm amazed at how pretentious and condescending you are.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/OpUM47y7uT4
Our anthem is "Oh Canada". Now go suck some trader dick.
Would be interesting to see: 1. School break down 2. Number of analysts who make it to PE, then differentiate between megafund, large MM, MM, lower MM 3. Number of analysts who make it to HF
great post bankerella...this is the type of thread that is extremely valuable for the WSO community.
Best post in months, really looking forward to whatever analysis comes out of it.
Hey, great thread! What about percentages of people from Europe working in Wall Street ?
Now most of them Canadians don't happen to work for the RBC now would they??????
I going to assume the CDN stats rose exponentially after Ivey hired that person from DLJ as their head of career services in the early 90s.....
Bravo.
Would love to see an "exit opps" breakdown based on BB, middle market, elite boutique, unknown boutique, etc. I imagine the % in PE or HF is far lower than most people imagine and % straight to b-school is higher than most would think.
What type of sample size are we talking?
Yep, an exit opps analysis is a given. Question is: what constitutes an exit? A lot of these guys "exit" to someplace new every 18 months during the time period covered by the study. Does only the first exit count, or do we care more about where they ultimately ended up (or, to be more specific, whatever firm they're at today)?
Sample size looks like it's going to wind up somewhere around 250-300 individuals who have every cell filled out, maybe as many as 500 depending on what the question is.
area chart showing percentage of each segment of finance populated on y-axis and year in career on x-axis. looks like year 1 will be 100% IB based on sample set, we'll have to work with that. year 10 should show very little IB, maybe 10% or less, and rest 90% should be mostly paradise areas. please include legend with distinct colors used for each segment, but no pink, we need this to be presentable. at minimum, HF, AM, PE, VC, F500, IB should be represented. please revert back with q's. please label years and percentages clearly, include appropriate title.
thx
Yep, good questions. I can give percentages soon, but preliminary glance says that some nontraditional associates enter from:
1-2 years in industry/corp dev post-MBA Top accounting/consulting/strategy post-MBA Big law (presumably they had an M&A focus)
One thing I don't see is any associates coming in from nontraditional backgrounds who only have a bachelor's.
Also don't see anybody coming straight out of any kind of academic program except MBA. So no MSIS or financial masters' degrees. Also no JDs straight from school (unless of course they did a JD/MBA).
Also, looks like most/all the MBAs were two-year programs.
One followup question: incoming analysts: how many coming out of big4 TAS, Sales (where I am), AM, ER, ops, etc... Did you go there at all?
You clearly know nothing about Canadians.
double post.
All Whartonites have access to the Wharton database on spike (it's under the community tab, then alumni directory). It basically has every single alumni, all the jobs they've had with dates, it allows you to stratify by industry, company, title, city and a whole bunch of other random things. It has their personal and work emails, it even gives you their home addresses (I've got to admit, i did check out a few of the pads on google maps just out of curiosity, bloody sick some of them - if i ever run out of money in the city or london, I'll just knock on their door saying I'm an alum that needs shelter lol jk) and telephone numbers (surprisingly some really powerful alums data is up there (i.e I've got Donald Trump's number lol - not that I'd call it). It's got 85 k names there (Jed Cairo actually exists btw), so its a pretty good resource. Bloody useful, it has a lot of filtering options so I'm sure we could do something with it. I'm too busy trying to get hired as an oil trader so I'm not bothered to do it, but i'm sure there are other Wharton alums that would be happy to help if you've got questions.
how many have no college at all?
No individual in the sample has no college.
how many have no college at all?
Well, what a nice post, kudos. I am wondering about people from latam, maybe you can give us an insight.
Correlation between comp and dealflow / transaction $ would be interesting. Also comp as a percentage of dealflow at the VP and MD level
Seems like this will be an amazing study / resource when this is done.
Canadiens, please stfu.
Bankarella, I love you. I'm sure you're hot and I would totally do you. Now, do you have any insights into the careers of traders? What do they do after trading at a BB, more trading?
Great post Bankerella. Maybe you could include data on finance profressionals with advanced degrees (MD, PHD, JD.). Some questions that come to mind are what percentage of bankers hold an advanced degree, what type of industries MD/MBA, PHD candiates enter, etc.
Hey, this set of questions doesn't really make sense, except for the JD part. You understand the data set is all front-office BB IBD, right? It includes things like ECM, DCM, traditional IBD, lev fin, financial sponsors, but there's no trading, no hedge fund dudes, no private banking, no quants, no physicians or neurosurgeons or whatever.
Nonetheless, here are the answers:
MD: 0 PhD: 0 JD: looks like roughly 2-3% above VP; 0% of VP and below. Split roughly 50/50 between straight JD and JD+MBA. % of bankers (above analyst) with advanced degree: roughly 90%. The remaining ~10% were direct promotes of some sort.
Maybe some data regarding Mfin, MSF? Did they have prior finance internship experience.
Awesome post, everyone who was trying to call BS on bankrella must feel tres dumb right now. See what I did there I dropped random french in with the english, thats what we do...
Ofcourse Canadians are everywhere look at your tech companies and Hollywood. Why you think California has 3 NHL teams?
Great post. If you're able to answer the following...
What percent of associates make it to MD? When you get it, what percent of analysts do the direct promotion? If you have it, industry that analysts got to by percent...i.e. PE, HF, IB, MBA, and others Return offer rate for summer analysts and summer associates by firm Some sort of chart showing net compensation by 50 in 2012 dollars. One way is as a bar chart...i.e. this many people made less than $5mill. This many people made $5mill to $10mill etc.
This seems too good to be true. Very tempted to call B.S. But instead, I'll (happily) indulge:
Analysts, Associates, VPs, and MDs, by: undergrad, undergrad major, undergrad graduation year, b-school, b-school graduation year. If you can break these figures out across traditional IBD, ECM, and DCM, it would be even more baller.
Thanks!
Edit: Also, the relative distribution of Analysts, Associates, VPs, and MDs.
WTF happened? Bankrella is making useful posts now? The world is coming to an end. That's two in a row.
What canadian universities are most represented by %?
OP: awesome post.
This probably ranks among one of the better front page posts on WSO. Bankerella has redeemed her GMAT obsession.
Trying to get the disco song "Native New Yorker" out of my head. Bankerella's New York banker chick persona that epitomizes the song is not helping me.
i was very happy to see the target school myth debunked as your very first point. not trying to diss targets, because of course many people work very hard to attain that level of education. but they are definitely very much over emphasized in my opinion. maybe even moreso in our little monkey microcosm we have here. thank you bankerella. excellent post. after reading your initial findings here, my first thought is that your data supports the good 'ole, outwork 'em and you can do anything methodology
I hate to say it, but there were a lot more reasons for a smart kid to go to a state school in the '80s and the '90s than there are today. During the period of bigger government we saw from the 1930s to the 1970s, state schools got better funding and the state government took a more active role in developing and maintaining the educated white collar class than today. At the same time, Ivy Leagues were for the moderately intelligent wealthy, not for the brilliant. (That was MIT, Cal Tech, or Berkeley)
It would be really nice to see evidence of Illinois, UMich, UT Austin, Berkeley, Rutgers, and SUNY grads from '05 onward doing well. It would confirm a lot of the suspicions of us state school folks.
Average birth year is currently 1975 with a standard deviation of 8 years, and analyst/associate/VP/D/MD populations are all roughly the same size in this sample. Does that answer your question?
I've also just got a huge new sample set, analysts only, recent, from a single year. I think I'm going to handle and analyze them separately, because they're almost equal in size to the entire rest of the set. I think combining them would lose the fidelity of the two separate sampling methods.
You know, I keep seeing Illinois pop up in the data set and thinking of you. I never paid much attention to what you said about Illinois, even though one of my closest friends as an analyst went to UIUC and I know a couple of other good alumni too. It's confirmation bias at work: I never really thought of UIUC as a big deal. But this data I'm looking at kinda confirms your point. Kinda. (UMich still beats the pants off you guys in this data set.)
I confess, I love it when I see that some badass baller MD went to a state school, even if it makes me sick to my stomach when I think of what I myself spent on undergrad. I just have to keep telling myself that those guys must have something I don't have, and that I personally wouldn't have made it any other way.
Bankerella, do yourself a favor and stop these garbage articles. It's hard for me to fathom why people even use this site for their financial "counseling." Let me provide some readers some justice. The people writing this garbage are mostly non-tenured, and sadly, fueling this craze for investment banking from complete ignorance.
Let me begin by discrediting this author. The author was apparently born in 1906 and apparently, has so called sources who's willing to break the law (not civil but criminal) to release employment records. Let me explain, how impossible or how suicidal this process is. To even attempt will set off red flags, and even, if that person would have been successful, compliance would fry that person's ass. Apparently, the author has no idea how compliance works.
One comment that completely puzzles me is this. "But let’s face it: there are a lot of losers out there who did some shitty back-office role at GS five years ago and are now answering phones at Ameriprise." Back office associates in GS makes three times more than the counterparts. Executive secretaries will make more than this author ever will. Their salary begins around 90k. And general other white collar back office employees can make 3x - 5x more than the peers. Frankly, they all look like winners to me.
For my role, I worked in Goldman Sachs for 3 years. I worked in the front office, a.k.a. client facing roles. Why do I say this? Just to prove a point. Was it investment banking? To the general population, yes but in truth, it was just an advisory or technical role. Nothing more.
I hope have debunked some of these myths of investment bankers. I till this day, still engage in investment banking, but clearly don't agree to the author's opinions.' And I might add, should any future prospect employee would come up with any of this garbage, they would be thrown out.
Cool story bro.
Not sure that's a compliment.
http://www.leveragedsellout.com/2008/06/finance-reunions/
,
That's not to say secretaries aren't brilliant or that competence at any level- from digging ditches to making pitchbooks to even being a quant code monkey isn't worthy of respect. But if we're really trying to put numbers on things and foolishly use those numbers as insults, you kinda fell flat on your face.
Actually employment data can be legally used for statistical purposes as long as it doesn't identify anyone. But yes, Bankerella is obviously the kind of person that at least some people in banking would stick their necks out for, otherwise she wouldn't have these records.If you're going to claim to be a former FO BB employee, act like one. Next time you want to attack someone, at least have your shit together.
I'm starting to think nonpartisancritic might have just successfully trolled us.
"My" secretary makes more than 90k. So that, at least, is in line with whatever the hell you just said there. The rest is incomprehensible. Are you saying the back office makes more than front office?
No wait, I got it, folks: Back office is the new buyside.
We could really fuck up some young lives with that motto if we took it far enough.
I'm going to enjoy watching this site tear you a bakers dozen of new assholes. I and half the people on this thread (several of whom I know personally) are in front office.
Please STFU and KYS, thank you
i.can't.wait.
what % are white bald men?
What a quality post. You're either hit or miss, Bankarella. Thank you.
have u ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? what if you were unable to wake from that dream? how would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?
I met with a partner MD from Goldman a year ago and he told me something pretty cool:
"All of our data shows that 5 years into working for us, there is not a single statistically significant performance difference between target/HYPS school hires and non-target school hires."
He went on to say that the main reason Goldman still focuses on targets/HYPS is that it's much easier, the kids are better at interviewing, the school helps facilitate the process better, ect.
I think intuitively this makes sense. Having gone to a non-target I feel that firms screening and interview process is good enough at firms that you only get in if you're qualified. Overall though, I'd love to see confirmation of this guys statement if possible.
Bankerella, are you just doing this to get laid?
You probably have 200+ PMs sitting in your box. Surely you'll give in to some banker love..
Am I right or am i write?
nice
in for follow up
This post didn't give me a boner, does that mean I won't make it in banking?
nonpartisan critic was certainly, certainly partisan towards bankerella. nonpartisan is one of the greatest politically correct words ever to be devised by those who just want continue their flacid habits. i personally do not believe rote application of the word is possible in real life. sure, anyone can be apathetic, even forcefully so, but non-partisan? come on bro! thus i am partisan towards the nonpartisan. my view on nonpartisan is inversely related to the word itself, like interest rates and bond prices.
pretty sure skeptic just powertrolled the shit
I gave you a banana, i hope that makes you feel less inclined to throw monkey shit at me. :) I shall watch the original now as well, just as soon as I get out of Africa (i.e where internet is faster).
good, that should be your first order of business when you get back to the us of a
double
Excellent Post, and as a Canadian I have to say I laughed at the crack at canadians. Wondering if it was possible to see how many Canadians came from CDN schools or went to US ivy league schools through your dataset? At all levels, analyst/associate/ etc
Thanks
Holy crap. No, all I can see is the name of the undergrad institution. You mean some of these HYPS grads that I thought were good red-blooded Americans are actually Canadian?
Jesus, they really are everywhere. I wonder how long I'll last now that I know.
I can see it now: one day I'll just be at my desk, working away, and I'll look up to find two suspiciously friendly men smiling down at me (one white and one ethnically indeterminate, naturally, since every portrayal of Canada has to accurately represent its rich diversity and history). They'll ask me to join them for a beer. And that'll be the last anyone ever sees or hears from me again on this side of the border. My coworkers will say, "I didn't question it. Those two guys just looked so friendly and harmless."
And six months later, in a skyscraper in Toronto, one more smiling, good-natured, peppy, freshly-minted Canadian will take her seat and begin Day 1 of her new life as a cog in the secret war on America.
Bankerella, though I still think you're a female douchebag but this is a great post. Thanks for sharing and all the effort. I'd have given you a SB if I didn't spend all my credit throwing monkey shit at you. Very nicely done.
Thank you. This is actually a pretty substantial effort on my part (and, to be honest, on the part of some immensely underpaid badasses in Mumbai. Or maybe Hyderabad. I forget. Either way: total props. Thank god IIT only has room for so many geniuses.)
But, to be very clear, I am not doing this out of the goodness of my heart. I'm not exactly known for my generosity. I'm doing this in order to add enough value so that I can troll freely while avoiding Patrick's ban-hammer for a little while longer. It's all about the give and take, eh?
Hey Bankerella, I appreciate all the advice and tips, and the random discussions are entertaining, but.. I just have to say...
You're not cool!
Please lay off the injection of random "cool" words and phrases. It's kind of painful to read.
And who the fuck are you?
Hey dude, remember when you PMed me asking for the document that has all the secret sauce from the $250k notebook?
In that PM, you also told me a couple of personal tidbits about yourself. Tell me something: how does a guy with your major turn it around and crown himself the arbiter of cool on WSO?
Zoom-Zoom-Zoom
Also, Bankerella: I've been hard on you in the past. And I don't regret it - a leader never apologizes. But I'm damn proud of how far you've come. Keep it up, kid.
Gender Studies? European Literature? Film Studies?
I know I saw someone post somewhere about Masters in Finance degrees and advanced degrees other than MBA...
Is this because to an extent it doesn't help? or just because the degree is just now starting to gain momentum and its still relatively new?
Question for the data set though... Exit opps from Analyst programs MM IBD vs BB IBD.. Mainly percentage of analysts going to PE. And I am also curious about average work experience going into an MBA program preferably just Stanford and Harvard, though I am sure everyone else wants Wharton also.
GRACIASSSS
Getting actual names/lengths of pre-MBA experience for those MBAs who weren't analysts is going to be spotty (not to mention a pain in the ass). So that's going to be (as they say) "lower on my priority list". However, I can do average age upon entering MBA program; it's a decent proxy for years of work experience pre-MBA.
Exit opps: already looking at breakdown between MM IBD, BB IBD, PE, VC, HF, other Asset Management, consulting, industry, corp dev, etc.
Testosterone levels, # of female conquests before age 20 - broken down by highest title attained as a banker.
'More associates than I thought come from nontraditional paths (i.e., not straight from the analyst program or b-school.'
I have seen this a lot too.
'Ditto Asians/Indians (would take some doing since I don't have ethnicity data in the set, but could be done).'
Asians do become analysts. Indians do become Associates +. But both groups are ridiculously overqualified when they are selected. Its also more common in the States - they are a needle in a haystack when it comes to the UK/European offices.
From what I have seen, the people who get the furthest usually have a unique route and are not 'the run of the mill'. There are exceptions however.
How many analysts are from liberal arts colleges (Amherst, Williams, Middlebury etc)?
Quick question, whats the break down of non-US schools in the sample?
ahaha beauty donkeymoney. but man shes right you gotta stop 'crowning yourself arbiter' of things
bankerella i think you will eventually crown yourself queen of leaving banking to write a best selling series of slightly verbose yet punchy and hip yet business savvy self help books for female 20 somethings who hang out at Starbucks but want something more. the first one could be called 'bankerella: how i traded lululemons and a smile for a pantsuit and wads of cash' followed by 'bankerella 2: how to outsmart everyone you meet and make friends'
Any evidence on this one? Seems hard to believe.
Yep. I was thinking of one poor douchebag in particular when I wrote that. Friend of mine. (He's not at Ameriprise now, but at a firm of similar... uh... quality.) At one point in life we were in the same place, same time, same general quality of intellect, douchitude, and background. In fact, he taught me a thing or two about being a douche.
Long story short, we made different choices and our paths diverged quite a lot. Now, we all know that compensation doesn't matter and that nobody cares about money, it's who you are inside, yadda yadda. But, jesus, the guy's a decade into his career and he's never broken six figures all-in. (I, on the other hand, started six figures right after undergrad and since then have never had to work for five. I know others weren't as lucky. Right place, right time, I guess.)
If you were to look at our resumes or look us up on LinkedIn today, you might be hard-pressed to say who's done better. The guy who fixes your printer and sets up your monitors at GS has probably got a LinkedIn page saying he's a tenured VP of strategic operations at GS.
I don't blame the guy; the game's all about spin, right?
The point of this analysis, though, is to exclude spin and narrow the sample down to the relatively small percentage of actual bankers. Make sense?
Nah, I wasn't being antagonistic, it's just my writing style and I didn't want to come across as asking straight up if it was better cause that would seem arrogant. I love it here, just curious that's all.
Dhanam, looks like you are a freshman, just curious as to how you formed your opinion on whether we 'destroy' them or not. Blackhat is in the industry so he'd be in a better position to know whether we 'destroy' them or not - what do you base your statement on? If you are still a freshman at Wharton and have never been on the street, then you know as much as I do, which is what people at Wharton say and second hand anecdotal evidence from the street, but I wanted to see what the hard data says. That's why I was asking.
I'll give a more legitimate answer, haha. Wharton UG on average is not going to be prepared for whatever job they are applying for unless it's investment banking, but no matter what job in the financial services sector we're talking about, 9 times out of 10 the Wharton student is going to have a much easier time hitting the ground running (though most big banks and consultancies don't make you do that, hence the fact that this effect wears away quickly in the mainstream job titles), and if you spend any time at all looking at the breakdowns at different investment banks, hedge funds, PE, etc. you will notice that Penn has a ridiculously consistent track record of delivering the most people to these businesses. Sure, you may say that Penn has like 8-10k students, but there's a reason why many firms recruit exclusively from Wharton and Harvard, rather than HYPS or something like that. As a younger guy I couldn't go to a networking event or some sort of career-related gathering without half the room being Penn people from my class or classes in the vicinity of mine. The presence on Wall Street is just absurd relatively speaking, and you do notice at the junior level that these kids have a very noticeable advantage over someone who came out of Brown after studying Greek Mythology...
Of course we call it a "BS in Economics" for a reason, as the joke goes, but that doesn't mean we didn't still get a decent 4-year job training program by going to Wharton (and to a lesser extent, Penn in general). Though I think this topic is probably a waste of time considering that the advantage goes away rather quickly after the junior levels, as it's really not hard to learn to do good work as a banker or consultant or whatever. And just by going to Wharton you can't expect the education to turn you into some buy-side stock picking rock star, because it most certainly won't teach you the first thing about investing. Some education on private equity and other number-centric approaches are taught though which I'm sure is another leg up on our Zeus expert in Providence.
For real. No event runs out of pizza faster than the networking/career events do...
Here's how the joke goes: An Economist is someone who knows a hundred and one ways of making love, but has never met a woman.
Yeah, I just finished my freshman year and basically am clueless - my comment was supposed to be more of a poor segway from the post I quoted than any kind of authoritative answer based on real data or experience. Probably was a little too defensive myself, and I'm also pretty interested in the hard data as well. Thanks for your post as well BlackHat.
Don't know why but whenever bankerella posts something, i have the impression that she seriously needs to get laid.
I've never understood what dudes are trying to say when they say this to a girl. Like most chicks (with the right age and looks) in most cities, I got dick on tap. Dick is a public good. If there's some chick out there not getting enough dick, it's her own damn fault. Like an anorexic not letting herself get enough to eat. (Anasexic?)
Don't believe me, check Wikipedia: "In economics, a public good is a good that is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous in that individuals cannot be effectively excluded from use and where use by one individual does not reduce availability to others. Examples of public goods include fresh air, knowledge, lighthouses, national defence, flood control systems, dick, and street lighting.
Word.
double
To be fair, in all but the most extreme of circumstances (such as, say, me) this does not apply to dick - not at the same time, anyway. But like I said, there's exceptions... and there's a reason why they call me the impaler.
Very interesting thread...a couple of points:
-I want to believe the non-target thing but I think IlliniProgrammer brings up a valid point about the age of the sample. The average birth year may be 1975 which is firmly in the era of on campus recruiting and the like, but that still leaves a large part of the sample that is much older and was hired at a different time when banks didnt all recruit at the same 5 schools. -Kind of a side point mentioned in this thread, but a high-end secretary that works for somebody very rich makes way more then 90k and does in fact make more then most on this board ever will. I have worked with secretaries for billionaire-types that i have no doubt made seven figures and travel the World for free. And in terms of office politics they wield a tremendous amount of power. So let's not hate on secretaries. -I am trying desperately to ignore the voice in my head that questions the possibility of this data set actually existing without someone eventually ruining their career for stealing it...i hope whoever got this stuff covered their ass.
I split a secretary with two other guys, one senior to me but the other slightly junior. Our secretary makes at least 30% more than the junior guy whose phone calls she has to screen. These bitches get paid, and I won't opine on whether or not they deserve it (we're very low maintenance, I assume it's a terribly stressful job in larger places or working for a prick of a boss), but I do have to comment on my hatred for her political views really quickly. She despises us for being "greedy bankers" (lol) and thinks our bonuses are outrageous and Obama is a god-send and we don't deserve the compensation, yet she collectively gets 15% from our bonuses and unquestionably gets paid in excess of what it takes to be in the 1%. Absolute beasts.
Double
Generic dick may be readily available for most women, but actual good sex is not. So while it may not be accurate to say that some girls "need to get laid" it is 100% accurate that many women are in desperate need of getting fucked competently. It is a sad commentary on men that i'd say like 30% of women dont even know that they have never had good sex.
lol, 30%...no comment.
How much is this going to cost?
the most expensive sex is free sex
I was wondering if you could tell me the number or percentage of Arabic people across the board at all levels or positions and at various places (hedge fund, PE firm etc..)
Hmm. It would be possible to go through and flag people with names that look Arabic to me. But I don't think the results would be representative of reality.
1: In many cases I can't tell the difference between Arabic and Farsi/Persian/Iranian/whaddeveryawannacallit names (and yes, there are both in the sample), and anyone else I'd trust with the data would also have no fricking idea how to tell the difference. 2: Not all Arabs have Arabic names.
3: Very few of these people went to school in the Middle East.
Sorry.
Its ok I just thought it was worth a shot the reason I asked is because I know there is a big conflict going on in Palestine/Israel and I know most of WallStreet is "Jewish" at least a lot of them are so I was wondering if that had a negative effect on the Arabic business men/women that want to break into the field.
From the limited exposure I've had, there are definitely Arabs working on Wall Street. As Bankerella mentioned, most of them do not go to school in the Mid East. Most of them have the resources and upbringing to attend schools like Harvard, Wharton, Oxford, etc.
can we stop the rant and get back to the database?
More stats please
where's the excel file?
On my personal drive. Where it belongs, and where it will stay.
Ok cool. Just thought you had some sort of stats with the names and personal stuff starred out.
Enjoy your 100 hour work week life and using your spare time to keep tabs on other peoples'. Hope you're doing better than your friends.
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