Your competition's not as tough as you think

Every year around this time, some young monkeys hop on the forums and start moaning about how bad this year is for recruiting. You guys think it's bad? You ain't seen bad unless you've seen 2001, 2008, or 2009. But nevertheless, your auntie has good news. I recruited all last week, and let me tell you: the competition out there right now doesn't look as tough as you guys think it is. Here are the real gems from my week recruiting at our top targets:

Candidates who stare at or lengthily check their phones while talking to recruiters. If you aren't going to make eye contact with me, at least have the basic human dignity to stare at my boobs like the rest of the candidate pool. If you can't find something about me or my firm to stay interested in for ninety seconds, then the feeling is probably going to be mutual.

"Hi, my name is Brian, I'm an English major, blah blah, and I don't need a visa." Thanks, Whitey McWhiteboy -- I'm not sure I would have noticed your glaring whiteness had you not pointed it out to me. While it's true that roughly 85% of the 200 people in this room are Asians that aren't native English speakers, and thus you actually are a bit unusual here, I'm slightly alarmed that the most positive spin you could think of was the fact that you were born on these shores. How about your Excel skills? Or do you do any cave diving?

A girl in a sleeveless red cocktail dress with a deep slit up one thigh. This was completely surreal at 10:30 in the morning at a career fair. I really hope L'Oreal gave her a job, because otherwise she's gonna have to be a bar hostess.

Communications majors with 3.3 GPAs. Really? That communications coursework is too heavy-duty for you to squeeze out a 3.5? Is that Powerpoint formatting a little too hardcore for you?

A guy wearing so much aftershave it literally made my eyes water. This was in one of those little tiny interview rooms. I literally cut the interview short by ten minutes because I couldn't handle being in the room with the guy any longer.

Men with facial hair. Dude, you're 21. You're 130 pounds soaking wet. You probably grew this thing to try to prove to the girls around you that you have in fact gone through puberty. But all it means is that you're going to get no girls and no jobs. And it ain't Movember yet, so listen up and mow it down.

Bright pink/purple shirts. I'm not talking pastel, I'm talking bright like 1980's bright. (This was specifically on Indian males. Is that a thing?)

Two-page resumes. Please. You haven't even done anything yet.

Explaining a weakness on their resume the moment they hand it to me. You really want to make sure that the first thing I pay attention to on your resume is the turd? Save it for the interview.

 

Great post

I'm like one of them marriage counselors. Charge by the hour to tell some fool he needa bring some flowers home. Then charge another hour telling the bitch she oughta suck some cock every little once in a while. Keep a marriage strong like that. -Prop Joe
 

Hahaha, Were the bright pink/purple shirts shiny? I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, the kinda shiny bright pink/purple dress shirts? What's up with that?

Fear is the greatest motivator. Motivation is what it takes to find profit.
 
bankerella:

Bright pink/purple shirts. I'm not talking pastel, I'm talking bright like 1980's bright. (This was specifically on Indian males. Is that a thing?)

.

Are you recruiting for a Bollywood studio?

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/company/goldman-sachs>GS</a></span>:
bankerella:

Bright pink/purple shirts. I'm not talking pastel, I'm talking bright like 1980's bright. (This was specifically on Indian males. Is that a thing?)

.

Are you recruiting for a Bollywood studio?

Ha I went to India, and it's textile paradise. Hot pink is American navy blue.
WSO Content Intern
 
sayandarula:
not to self: shave face, tone down the cologne, stare at boobs

lol!

Because when you're in a room full of smart people, smart suddenly doesn't matter—interesting is what matters.
 
econcomputingCRE:
how can you say 2008 and 2009 were the worst years? 2008 the graduating class was not in a rough market until the fall... well after recruiting for that year was over. 2009/10 were the worst years

You're forgetting about all the FT offers that were rescinded

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/company/goldman-sachs>GS</a></span>:
econcomputingCRE:
how can you say 2008 and 2009 were the worst years? 2008 the graduating class was not in a rough market until the fall... well after recruiting for that year was over. 2009/10 were the worst years

You're forgetting about all the FT offers that were rescinded

That was bigger in 08/09 than in 07/08... no? 09/10 then was arguably the worst year (job losses continued until mid-to-late '10). 10/11 picked up a bit and now 11/12 is still improving on last year.

I agree with everything she said, but if she's saying that 07/08 was one of the worst years (even though we were technically in recession) then that's odd to say that because the fin crisis had not even developed byt hen

 
cheesebeans:
Bearearns:
"Candidates who stare at or lengthily check their phones while talking to recruiters."

This would bug the shit out of me. It bugs me just thinking of it.

Not as bad as talking to individuals with dirty shirts. Now i'm talking about the white dress shirt that turned into a slight shade of yellow.

personally i cut kids a huge slack @ newness of the clothing. as long as it was appropriate, then i'm okay. if it was an old shirt that was clearly white at some point it doesn't bother me...not every candidate's from a financial background that allow them to set a separate interview/recruiting wardrobe -- or from families that taught their kids on appearances/manners. it's the bright colors (men) and skin exposures (women) where i draw the line.

 
Financier4Hire:
While it's true that roughly 85% of the 200 people in this room are Asians that aren't native English speakers, and thus you actually are a bit unusual here

These are the people with the best shot at getting a job. In fact I know of several shops that are recruiting English/Mandarin and English/Cantonese bilingual speakers. The jobs ARE in Asia now

If you are an international student, you need to make sure to demonstrate a firm grasp of the English language (if you want to work in the US). Strong accents do not matter, but your understanding of sentence structure matters in a big way.

There is a lot of writing involved in IB. If the interviewer doesn't believe your language skills are up to par, you will get dinged right away. If you don't seem to have a clear understanding of subject/verb agreement, pronoun usage, etc. the interviewer imagines what a nightmare marking up your work product will be.

 

This is very accurate. I see so many posts on this site where students/new grads are saying that they just don't understand why they aren't getting more traction in interview processes. The fact is that most interviewees are simply lacking something critical.

When we used to do on-campus interviews there were maybe 24 kids that would get 1st round interviews (if we did 2 tracks of interviewers). We'd target bringing back 6 students. There were usually 3-4 kids that clearly got it...they were polished, articulate, not only knew the technicals but crushed them, had a clear understanding of why they wanted to do banking and why they'd be good at it. They were prepared and ready to go. Furthermore, they were people that you would want to work with or sit next to on a long flight.

There was no distinguishing factor that was a common thread amongst these candidates. They were of all races, male and female, US and international, engineers and fin/accy majors (only those majors were allowed). The only theme was that as soon as they got up, you would look at the other interviewer and both agree that there was no question.

The remaining ~3 candidates came from a pool of 10-12 "maybe" candidates that all had some major question mark - good technically but questionable personality fit; good personality and technicals but lack of clear interest in pursuing IB or awareness of what the job is; good personality and reasons for pursuing IB but questionable technically; the "super eager person" that is generally ok but you know would be as annoying as hell in the office. For this group, we'd select the students that had the fewest question marks.

The remaining ~10 candidates in the 1st round were generally terrible and not prepared, which is shocking because they were all great resumes that got selected out of the 100's submitted...top grades, good EC's, interesting work histories, etc. It was pretty clear that these students hadn't spent much time, if any, preparing.

Out of the candidates that we'd bring back to final rounds, I'd say that those top 3-4 people were around 80-90% likely to get an offer. The people from the second group that got brought back were maybe 25% likely to get an offer.

If you are getting interviews but no traction, there is probably some issue with your interviewing style. If you aren't getting interviews, you need to figure out how to make it better (assuming firms are recruiting). One thing to keep in mind is that in some bad years IBs will go to campuses and take no one back, but they want to keep up appearances (this was the case when I was interviewing in fall 2001), while other banks may just not come. Don't be afraid to ask your interviewers about how many they are planning to bring back/hire.

 
TechBanking:
This is very accurate. I see so many posts on this site where students/new grads are saying that they just don't understand why they aren't getting more traction in interview processes. The fact is that most interviewees are simply lacking something critical.

When we used to do on-campus interviews there were maybe 24 kids that would get 1st round interviews (if we did 2 tracks of interviewers). We'd target bringing back 6 students. There were usually 3-4 kids that clearly got it...they were polished, articulate, not only knew the technicals but crushed them, had a clear understanding of why they wanted to do banking and why they'd be good at it. They were prepared and ready to go. Furthermore, they were people that you would want to work with or sit next to on a long flight.

There was no distinguishing factor that was a common thread amongst these candidates. They were of all races, male and female, US and international, engineers and fin/accy majors (only those majors were allowed). The only theme was that as soon as they got up, you would look at the other interviewer and both agree that there was no question.

The remaining ~3 candidates came from a pool of 10-12 "maybe" candidates that all had some major question mark - good technically but questionable personality fit; good personality and technicals but lack of clear interest in pursuing IB or awareness of what the job is; good personality and reasons for pursuing IB but questionable technically; the "super eager person" that is generally ok but you know would be as annoying as hell in the office. For this group, we'd select the students that had the fewest question marks.

The remaining ~10 candidates in the 1st round were generally terrible and not prepared, which is shocking because they were all great resumes that got selected out of the 100's submitted...top grades, good EC's, interesting work histories, etc. It was pretty clear that these students hadn't spent much time, if any, preparing.

Out of the candidates that we'd bring back to final rounds, I'd say that those top 3-4 people were around 80-90% likely to get an offer. The people from the second group that got brought back were maybe 25% likely to get an offer.

If you are getting interviews but no traction, there is probably some issue with your interviewing style. If you aren't getting interviews, you need to figure out how to make it better (assuming firms are recruiting). One thing to keep in mind is that in some bad years IBs will go to campuses and take no one back, but they want to keep up appearances (this was the case when I was interviewing in fall 2001), while other banks may just not come. Don't be afraid to ask your interviewers about how many they are planning to bring back/hire.

Great points...this is why you would see some kids getting 5 offers while others got none...and it wasn't all about GPA either.

 

can someone change the thread pic to boobs rather than that dude?

thanks,

O

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 
Best Response
bankerella:
Men with facial hair. Dude, you're 21. You're 130 pounds soaking wet. You probably grew this thing to try to prove to the girls around you that you have in fact gone through puberty. But all it means is that you're going to get no girls and no jobs. And it ain't Movember yet, so listen up and mow it down.

I hope people don't listen to this. If a 21 year old isn't already a man to you then I have no clue what age qualifies. Maybe the kid just looks better with facial hair? At 16 I was already a victim of the 5 o'clock shadow, so shaving in the morning just meant scruff by the time I got home from football practice. Only got more aggressive in college. Plus I seem to remember getting a much better reaction from the analysts who looked 12 years old when I was interviewing and looked old enough to be their boss.

If you carry your facial hair naturally and don't look like a giant buffoon with it, don't feel the need to chop it off because you're afraid it might "look bad." That said, like any man in any job anywhere, you can't rock a Grizzly Adams beard until you're like 50, so general man-code still applies to facial hair. And no matter how French or gay (same difference, I know) you are, never do this:

I hate victims who respect their executioners
 
BlackHat:
bankerella:
Men with facial hair. Dude, you're 21. You're 130 pounds soaking wet. You probably grew this thing to try to prove to the girls around you that you have in fact gone through puberty. But all it means is that you're going to get no girls and no jobs. And it ain't Movember yet, so listen up and mow it down.

I hope people don't listen to this. If a 21 year old isn't already a man to you then I have no clue what age qualifies. Maybe the kid just looks better with facial hair? At 16 I was already a victim of the 5 o'clock shadow, so shaving in the morning just meant scruff by the time I got home from football practice. Only got more aggressive in college. Plus I seem to remember getting a much better reaction from the analysts who looked 12 years old when I was interviewing and looked old enough to be their boss.

If you carry your facial hair naturally and don't look like a giant buffoon with it, don't feel the need to chop it off because you're afraid it might "look bad." That said, like any man in any job anywhere, you can't rock a Grizzly Adams beard until you're like 50, so general man-code still applies to facial hair. And no matter how French or gay (same difference, I know) you are, never do this:

Well, Shia Labeouf didn't have facial hair in Wall Street 2, and since I base my whole life on that movie, I conclude it must be a faux pas.
 
BlackHat:
At 16 I was already a victim of the 5 o'clock shadow, so shaving in the morning just meant scruff by the time I got home from football practice. Only got more aggressive in college. Plus I seem to remember getting a much better reaction from the analysts who looked 12 years old when I was interviewing and looked old enough to be their boss.

I

Italian?

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/company/goldman-sachs>GS</a></span>:
BlackHat:
At 16 I was already a victim of the 5 o'clock shadow, so shaving in the morning just meant scruff by the time I got home from football practice. Only got more aggressive in college. Plus I seem to remember getting a much better reaction from the analysts who looked 12 years old when I was interviewing and looked old enough to be their boss.

I

Italian?

Probably Turkish

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely. And Rhaegar died.
 
BlackHat:
bankerella:
Men with facial hair. Dude, you're 21. You're 130 pounds soaking wet. You probably grew this thing to try to prove to the girls around you that you have in fact gone through puberty. But all it means is that you're going to get no girls and no jobs. And it ain't Movember yet, so listen up and mow it down.

I hope people don't listen to this. If a 21 year old isn't already a man to you then I have no clue what age qualifies. Maybe the kid just looks better with facial hair? At 16 I was already a victim of the 5 o'clock shadow, so shaving in the morning just meant scruff by the time I got home from football practice. Only got more aggressive in college. Plus I seem to remember getting a much better reaction from the analysts who looked 12 years old when I was interviewing and looked old enough to be their boss.

If you carry your facial hair naturally and don't look like a giant buffoon with it, don't feel the need to chop it off because you're afraid it might "look bad." That said, like any man in any job anywhere, you can't rock a Grizzly Adams beard until you're like 50, so general man-code still applies to facial hair. And no matter how French or gay (same difference, I know) you are, never do this:

BH, I carry a trimmed down goatee. Is that acceptable, or do I have to sacrifice it for a job? Thanks, Andres

 
andres17:
BH, I carry a trimmed down goatee. Is that acceptable, or do I have to sacrifice it for a job? Thanks, Andres

I've never seen a college senior with a goatee before... could be weird if you can't pull it off well. Put another way - my dad has a goatee. But I think guys that can confidently carry off the scruff and similar facial hair are never at a disadvantage or anything.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
 
Cicero:
Your recruiting experiences are definitely representative of the global talent pool this year
can't tell if sarcastic or not...
"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 

Boobs suck, ass rules.

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!
 
El_Mono:
Boobs suck, ass rules.

gay

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 
bankerella:
El_Mono:
Boobs suck, ass rules.

Hilarious headline: non-English-speaking student reads this, decides that he will show appropriate interest and stand out from other candidates by attempting to stare at my ass rather than my boobs while talking to me.

In all fairness I bet on him/her standing out after that.

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!
 

Get off your god damn high horse bankerella you're doing IB interviews. Not exactly final rounds at DE Shaw (yes everything you've heard is true and more)

Seriously though, I'm all for the occasional laugh at the awkward applicant-but I've noticed a trend of you making fun of interviewees. You are a reflection of your firm and your managers during this process-don't forget that.

 
solb22:
Get off your god damn high horse bankerella you're doing IB interviews. Not exactly final rounds at DE Shaw (yes everything you've heard is true and more)

Seriously though, I'm all for the occasional laugh at the awkward applicant-but I've noticed a trend of you making fun of interviewees. You are a reflection of your firm and your managers during this process-don't forget that.

The head of prop trading at DE Shaw refuses to make eye contact with the applicant he's interviewing. I found that really really unnerving.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/company/goldman-sachs>GS</a></span>:
solb22:
Get off your god damn high horse bankerella you're doing IB interviews. Not exactly final rounds at DE Shaw (yes everything you've heard is true and more)

Seriously though, I'm all for the occasional laugh at the awkward applicant-but I've noticed a trend of you making fun of interviewees. You are a reflection of your firm and your managers during this process-don't forget that.

The head of prop trading at DE Shaw refuses to make eye contact with the applicant he's interviewing. I found that really really unnerving.

Lol I forgot about that-he told me after there was a reason but I forget why. Something about a psychout

 
solb22:
Get off your god damn high horse bankerella you're doing IB interviews. Not exactly final rounds at DE Shaw (yes everything you've heard is true and more)

Seriously though, I'm all for the occasional laugh at the awkward applicant-but I've noticed a trend of you making fun of interviewees. You are a reflection of your firm and your managers during this process-don't forget that.

A reflection of my firm and my managers? You saying you think I make fun of these guys to their faces?

Come to think of it, would be a pretty hilarious stress interview technique.

But seriously, if you can't handle the idea of douchebags laughing at you behind your back, you have two choices.

Option one: Don't do anything laughable. Right resume, right presentation, right school, right numbers. No one laughs at you if you're a 3.9 out of HYPS who cleans up nicely and behaves. Option two: Don't apply for careers (like IBD) that harbor a lot of douchebaggery.

 

To be fair, most of those chumps had something a decent chunk of people here don't have - they attend a target. So end of the day they will still get noticed and will have more opportunities to succeed at finding a position.

So basically, the retard at target XYZ still probably has a100x better shot than you (assuming your a non-target with no connections) at landing that lionized position of douchebagery. Take this with a grain of salt.

 

so now all i gotta do is unlearn resisting the urge to stare at boobs; and i will get an offer? infact bankerella, i will go one step beyond and volunteer to be your private poolboy on the weekends, your french man-maid, and your sex slave.

 

I remember one time when I was screening resumes I shit you not, I saw listed under the leadership section Guild Leader in WoW. The kid dedicated four bullet points to it! One bullet point read "Dedicated 25 hours a week leading a top 10 guild in the US." I was saying to myself, "You should of spent those 25 hours bringing up that 3.3 gpa instead of wiping on Gruul."

 
bearing:
I remember one time when I was screening resumes I shit you not, I saw listed under the leadership section Guild Leader in WoW. The kid dedicated four bullet points to it! One bullet point read "Dedicated 25 hours a week leading a top 10 guild in the US." I was saying to myself, "You should of spent those 25 hours bringing up that 3.3 gpa instead of wiping on Gruul."

I think I've seen a similar resume. Wonder if it's the same person. Penn?

 
bankerella:
bearing:
I remember one time when I was screening resumes I shit you not, I saw listed under the leadership section Guild Leader in WoW. The kid dedicated four bullet points to it! One bullet point read "Dedicated 25 hours a week leading a top 10 guild in the US." I was saying to myself, "You should of spent those 25 hours bringing up that 3.3 gpa instead of wiping on Gruul."

I think I've seen a similar resume. Wonder if it's the same person. Penn?

Do you have any idea what kind of dedication and managerial talent it takes to keep a prestigious guild on the Azeroth server? You guys will never amount to even half of what this guy's accomplished in his 25 hours a week "grinding" with Leroy Jenkins and crew.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
 
bearing:
I remember one time when I was screening resumes I shit you not, I saw listed under the leadership section Guild Leader in WoW. The kid dedicated four bullet points to it! One bullet point read "Dedicated 25 hours a week leading a top 10 guild in the US." I was saying to myself, "You should of spent those 25 hours bringing up that 3.3 gpa instead of wiping on Gruul."
US Top 10? I hope they're not wiping on Gruul. True, you need a Mage-tank, but that fight is easy-peasy.
 
bankerella:
How about your Excel skills? Or do you do any cave diving?

By cave diving do you mean the Brazzers kind, or actual cave diving?

If the former, what are today's top programs in terms of graduate quality? My gut tells me Duke, but I'd love to hear others' opinions

 
bankerella:
A girl in a sleeveless red cocktail dress with a deep slit up one thigh. This was completely surreal at 10:30 in the morning at a career fair. I really hope L'Oreal gave her a job, because otherwise she's gonna have to be a bar hostess.
1. nice dress.
  1. just like you i'm fairly critical of how chicks dress.. if i can manage to be fairly professional/fashionable (ok maybe not the latter) in a reclusive small suburb school, i've always wondered why some students still make basic fashion faux pas. (at bigger targets, or urban with more network/internship opportunities..)

  2. this reminds me of a girl wearing a nice, fitted...and red suit to a group company visit that I also attended as a fellow candidate. i shit you not. a red suit. where do you find that. by the way this was in the 2008-2009 season so based on your shoutout of the "real bad years" above, i'm equating the red suit in '09 as equally bad as the high slit cocktail dress. it wasn't at 10:30 in the morning though. on a separate note, i made a crack about the red suit to a head of a group (had no idea who he was) after he said we looked too dark/neutral. same guy hired me about 3 wks later.

 

Bankrella,

You make fun of Communications majors with 3.3 GPAs, but how would you look at a Math major with a 3.3 GPA? It is one of the more difficult majors at my school, at least that's the way I feel.

Is a 3.3 GPA for a Math major forgivable?

Thanks.

 
JamesHetfield:
Bankrella,

You make fun of Communications majors with 3.3 GPAs, but how would you look at a Math major with a 3.3 GPA? It is one of the more difficult majors at my school, at least that's the way I feel.

Is a 3.3 GPA for a Math major forgivable?

Thanks.

Yes. 3.3 math kind of equates to a 3.5 econ in my mind, personally.

Just don't forget that there are a whole lot of math majors out there with 3.7s, so even though a 3.3 math GPA is totally forgivable, it doesn't mean you're going to be first in line for an interview.

 

Miss Bankerella, what about a kid with a stained shirt? Like what if you had an ideal candidate before you: 3.8 double major in math and computer science from Princeton, originally from the mainland with two BB internships under his belt. Leader of the #1 Warcraft guild in the universe. Former ping pong silver medalist, quit tae kwon do because he literally killed an opponent once. First english word was SuperBowl, will vote for Mitt Romney. But, he had a big noticeable stain on himself because he got nervous waiting to come in and see you and spilled some coffee. You don't know that though: all you know is he has a brown stain on him and still had the nerve to come face you. Can you forgive him?

 
CaR:
Miss Bankerella, what about a kid with a stained shirt? Like what if you had an ideal candidate before you: 3.8 double major in math and computer science from Princeton, originally from the mainland with two BB internships under his belt. Leader of the #1 Warcraft guild in the universe. Former ping pong silver medalist, quit tae kwon do because he literally killed an opponent once. First english word was SuperBowl, will vote for Mitt Romney. But, he had a big noticeable stain on himself because he got nervous waiting to come in and see you and spilled some coffee. You don't know that though: all you know is he has a brown stain on him and still had the nerve to come face you. Can you forgive him?

As long as it looks like he looked decent when he started the day, who's gonna fault him for shit that happened afterwards?

 

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GBS
 

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Betsy Massar
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kanon
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DrApeman
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Jamoldo
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success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”