Returning this year are a few near shoe-ins: Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, and Mike Piazza; some with questionable history but HoF numbers: Bonds, Clemens, McGwire & Sosa; some newcomers who should be sure things: Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez; and some guys who maybekindashould get in: Fred McGriff, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Aaron Boone, Gary Sheffield, Edgar Martinez.
Who do you think will get in? I think the newcomers I mentioned are all shoe-ins, as is Biggio. I hope Bagwell, Piazza, and McGriff get in, the rest come down to your feelings on Steroids.
Discuss.
http://baseballhall.org/hof/2015-bbwaa-ballot
UPDATE: results are in. This years hall of fame class is
Big Unit
Pedro
Smoltz
Biggio
Piazza, so close and Bagwell had a good showing as well. McGriff the Crime Dog squeaked up a percentage or two, but not nearly enough. thoughts on the results?
I really dgaf about steroids but Pete Rose has a better shot of getting in than those 4.
completely agree, Sosa's lucky he made the ballot. in my opinion, it's something that will be on the minds of people forever so the recordbooks will never be completely unsullied, but it's hypocrisy to say keep all of them out . part of me says "yeah, but they might not have been as successful," and the other part says "they hit all of those home runs against guys who were juicing, so it's a zero sum game."
I was a Braves fan when they couldn't hardly get a soul to go watch a game. Seeing Maddux get in last year with 97.2% was pretty damn cool. Schilling has an awfully long road to make up at 29.2%, which surprisingly was behind Clemens at 35.4% and Bonds at 34.7%.
But that group of 4 above? @Cruncharoo nailed it.
makes you wonder what jackass didn't put Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux on their ballot...were Hideo Nomo and Moises Alou that good?
Agreed. I know Ken Gurnick has stated he will not vote for any player of the steroid era.
From all the guys on the ballot the following are those I believe have used anabolic steroids:
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Bagwell, Piazza, Sheffield
From your maybekindasorta guys how I rank them and HOF cut off:
Schilling Mussina McGriff
Kent
Mattingly E. Martinez Boone
Also, I believe there is a good chance Jeff Kent began taking steroids in the late 90's. Google his stats and check out his power numbers. All the sudden he becomes a guy good for 30+ HRs at 2nd base. He's also playing on a west coast team (more access to anabolics) in a clubhouse with Barry Bonds (with whom he used to roid rage out on in the dugout with some regularity). Definitely something to think about.
For me, until something more substantive comes out about Bagwell or Piazza about steroid use, I will assume innocence. I believe they will be voted in soon.
For newcomers, only Randy and Pedro are sure things, although Smoltz is pretty close. I don't see it with Nomar. He had a great peak, but was more or less done by 29 yo. not enough longevity.
Big fan of McGriff, and I think he is deserving, but I believe his lack of a high peak will keep him on the outside.
Biggio gets in this year. I think Sheffield will eventually get in. I think Mussina and Schilling eventually get in. Just a hunch, but I think Edgar stays out (DH negativity) as well as Kent.
I agree with Schilling, but Smoltzy? 3000 Ks, over 200 wins, over 150 saves, Cy Young winner. If you look at his numbers in a vacuum, I think it should be a sure thing.
but then again there's somebody out there who didn't vote for Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, etc., so you never know with the HoF.
excited to continue this discussion tomorrow morning after the votes come out.
@"adapt or die" agree on the juice, but do you think it should keep them out of Cooperstown?
all of this being said, I think that only the 3 top pitchers mentioned plus Biggio will get in this year.
I think Smoltz is HOF worthy and deserves inclusion. But I recently saw a comparison between him and David Cone, Kevin Brown, Schilling, Mussina, and one other pitcher (?). this was from a David Schoenfield ESPN article. Career numbers are all pretty identical. He eventually concluded that Smoltz was certainly worthy of HOF induction, but shouldn't be obviously ahead of the other pitchers mentioned.
If you let in the freakshow then you need to let them all in. I think the MLB should just stop drug testing and let the players do whatever. The record book is already totally fucked. I don't mind watching a juiced pitcher throw 108mph and a juice hitter smash it 550 ft.
Baseball is going to have so much difficulty keeping up with the science of drug use. A friend of mind who's a scout for the Mariners told me players are now taking an anabolic daily that leaves your system after 24 hours so you will never test positive. GH use is popular as well.
I don't like all the players involved who clearly used anabolics, but I completely understand why they did it. I would have done that same exact thing and you'd be crazy not to. In that regard part of me thinks they deserve amnesty but the writers HATE that arrogant guys like Clemens will not just admit they did it.
On a side note, 2 other guys who I have a hard time believing are clean for their entire careers are Albert Pujols and Jose Bautista.
For something substantive, take a look at a photo of the guy in 1991 and then in 1996. Not saying a guy can't add muscle, but good lord. He's got soo much water bloat too during his peak seasons.
Yeah, I know. I had his rookie card when I was a kid. Bagwell probably did use steroids. But everybody has a line when it comes to determining which players used steroids. Personally, my line is not having to compare before and after physiques. If not 1 other teammate/player calls him out, that's good enough for me (beyond the media rumbling). I acknowledge many people, including numerous HOF voters, have a different threshold.
what steroids?
can't edgar martinez get some more love?! look at his numbers...
Andy, no one feels bad for the Mariners of the 90s, you guys were the dynasty that never was
Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Bret Boone A Rod Ichiro Griffey Big Unit Buhner
My favorite team ever was the 1993 Phillies, biggest juice abusing team ever. Made the 1990 A's look like straight edge guys.
i just cried a little bit
Some truly amazing talent the past few years on the ballot. Truthfully I could care less about the steroids because everybody was doing it and you were stupid if you weren't. Bonds is the best hitter probably ever definitely of our generation, in 2004 Bonds had more HR than swinging strikes.
Johnson Smoltz, and Pedro are shoe ins for this year, and I would agree that Martinez if you compare his numbers with other DH's should definitely be in. Nomar and Aaron Boone are not close to HOF though.
I really hope Sheffield and Biggio make it.
depends on the basis of best ever. I think best swing is a toss up between Griffey and Williams (Ted Williams). as far as numbers, if you do a sum of the parts on Bonds, he's justifiably a candidate for the the best ever. not just hitter, player.
over 500 SBs, most walks, most homers, gold gloves, nearly 300 lifetime, nearly 3000 hits (probably would've been over 3500 had he not been intentionally walked almost 700 times). another contender would be Willie Mays, but because Bonds stands alone in so many categories he's hard to argue against.
and no one is old enough to have seen Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Tris Speaker, or Rogers Hornsby play, but I'm sure they deserve consideration.
it's arguments like this (who's the best hitter of all time?) why I love baseball.
Griffey! c'mon get out of here... Bonds could've swatted him into McCovey cove
Agree 100%. During that span where he was huge you couldn't even pitch to him. He's standing on the plate, wearing armor on his elbow. You have three choices 1) pitch around him 2) intentionally walk him 3) throw him strikes and he probably smashes one
I've never seen a more imposing at bat
By looks yeah Griffey swing was the best, but I mean in terms of pure hitting. Bonds during that time would put the sweet part of the bat on just about every swing. It is almost impossible to imagine as former baseball player that every time you swung at a strike you hit the ball perfectly.
I tried for years to replicate Griffeys swing and never could he was just an absolute natural.
Barry Bonds was the best player ever. I don't really care that his hat size grew by 5 sizes because of steroids. Put the guy in the Hall of Fame and stop the hypocrisy.
No roid guys. Even though Bonds was unreal of a hitter. That said the kid always had one of the most natural swings and uncanny ability to player center.
Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz, Biggio should go in for sure I would say. Tough to vote for a DH sorry Edgar.
Kent for sure was on mad juice. I am going Biggio over Bagwell, cause as much as I love Bagwell and the many fantasy seasons he won me as a kid, Biggio played a tougher position and was not on the juice.
The only ones who will get in this year are Pedro, Smoltz and Johnson, and Piazza in that order.
Donnie baseball doesn't have the credentials, even though it's his last chance :(
The steroid guys won't get in until their MAYBE last ballot out of spite (or because all the old writers have died and the new one's don't give a shit about steroids).
Biggio was a .280 hitter who just barely squeaked over the 3k hit line which isn't that impressive with zero MVP's and
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I'm pleased with this year's results, I think all 4 guys deserve it, but (and I doubt this will ever change) I'm still disappointed because bonds and clemens will likely never get in
Mike Piazza belongs in the HOF and I don't just say that because I am a Mets fan. In a big spot who would you rather pitch to, Piazza or Biggio? Not even close on that one. Also for older posters I think that Tim Raines belongs in the hall...that dude could flat out do it all in his prime and he was the cornerstone of some very underrated expos teams in the 80s with Dawson and Carter who are both in. He is another guy I would take in a heartbeat over Biggio.
Don Mattingly had a few HOF seasons but unfortunately due to his back didn't have a HOF career.
I agree about Piazza, but your comment is pretty obvious. He was an HOF player for sure but the steroid thing cover all guys in that bucket.
Also, I disagree on Tim Raines. A good player, but not HOF in my opinion.
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