Alternatives to Banking

After reading all of these depressing health articles and finance consuming lives, I was wondering what kinds of jobs with in the IB industry offer similar risk/reward?

In reality, how much different is it working for a boutique/MM vs. a BB? I'm sure if you work hard and network, then opportunities in PE/HF's will present themselves.

Drop your knowledge and insight brothers.

 

finance is going to be a dead industry for the next 10 years. heed this or regret it. even for the people in it, the bonuses won't be growing. it was already a winner takes nearly-all kind of industry but now there will be fewer crumbs than ever for the middle level ass slaves.

if you have ambition learn programming languages and be a techie. For most bankers who are quanty, that's as close as you are going to get. Unfortunately most of you guys are too dumb to program (as am I).

 
melvvvar:
finance is going to be a dead industry for the next 10 years. heed this or regret it. even for the people in it, the bonuses won't be growing. it was already a winner takes nearly-all kind of industry but now there will be fewer crumbs than ever for the middle level ass slaves.

I'm curious why you see its decline. Outsourcing to China?

 
Amphipathic:
melvvvar:
finance is going to be a dead industry for the next 10 years. heed this or regret it. even for the people in it, the bonuses won't be growing. it was already a winner takes nearly-all kind of industry but now there will be fewer crumbs than ever for the middle level ass slaves.

I'm curious why you see its decline. Outsourcing to China?

Increased herfindahl indices and GINIs. Also a smaller pipeline of new companies and investment opportunities combined with investor skepticism, Finance's job is to:

1.) Merge small companies into big companies. 2.) Bring new companies to market. 3.) Help investors and investment opportunities meet. 4.) Transfer money from dumb money to smart money.

The 1980s-2008 really set us up well for 1, 2, 3, and 4. We started the '80s with low GINIs, highly regulated merger markets (low herfindahl indices), lots of investment opportunities, and lots of dumb money. With higher GINIs, the average dollar is held by someone who is richer- and arguably more savvy about money- than he was in the 1980s. So that's out. Higher herfindahl indices mean there are fewer companies to merge. Fewer investment opportunities means fewer companies to bring to market; fewer potential IPOs.

Those three things are the same problems that plagued the financial sector in the 1930s and 1940s. After the crash of 1929, the financial sector shrunk as a percentage of GDP for 25 long years.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes, and the 1980-2008 verse is setting itself up for a bad ending for the financial industry over the next thirty years.

 
rynofrowan:
melvvvar:
finance is going to be a dead industry for the next 10 years

this time it's different/what's so special about 2022 anyway?

spitball estimate. when finance craps out it tends to stay that way for 10-20 years. i say we are about 5 years into the suckage.

 

roommate is at a boutique, he leaves earlier than I do usually in the am say 7 and gets home around 10pm. Not sure if this answers or provides insight but he has pretty long hours obviously not the same as a MM or BB, I feel as if I never get out of here.....boutiques depending can be pretty sick to work at, he gets to travel a ton to Europe with the firms MD', goes to almost all the client road shows and attends the pitches for a first year analyst some of this is sick, given I never in a million years would get to do any of this. Exit ops I'm sure a boutique is not looked upon as favorably as a top MM or BB but then again who is to say you can't beat kids from these banks out, all about who you know most of the time not what you know and if you can make it rain at the boutique chances are you can do so elsewhere as well.

its one way or the other: hate me or admire.
 
  1. new regulations up the ass
  2. balance-sheet crippled FIRE giants
  3. sovereign, corporate and household deleveraging cycle
  4. liquity trap (all financial returns have to come from operating returns eventually)

i know some wise ass college kid will come out and try to prove me wrong but i know what we are paying our junior people and i know the salary histories of the people around me. i also see the best people leaving the field for startups and non financial work. all signs negative.

 

I see a lot of people saying this but yet a lot of kids at the ivies still chase after banking.

Why?

If you expect a dog to bite you you'll be happy when al they do is pee on your shoes.
 
fruit loops:
I see a lot of people saying this but yet a lot of kids at the ivies still chase after banking.

Why?

Banking is the best paying job one can possibly get for a guy with a non-technical degree and no experience / skills, straight out of school.

Most jobs outside banking/ consulting pay you 30-40k to start out. Need I say more to explain why those bunches of kids at Ivies are after banking gigs?

 
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
fruit loops:
I see a lot of people saying this but yet a lot of kids at the ivies still chase after banking.

Why?

Banking is the best paying job one can possibly get for a guy with a non-technical degree and no experience / skills, straight out of school.

Most jobs outside banking/ consulting pay you 30-40k to start out. Need I say more to explain why those bunches of kids at Ivies are after banking gigs?

Commercial Real Estate my good man... Commercial Real Estate....

 
fruit loops:
I see a lot of people saying this but yet a lot of kids at the ivies still chase after banking.

Why?

A lot of these kids are still chasing banking, but it's markedly lower than before.
 

I guess I'm just going to have to contemplate from now until next fall recruiting on whether I believe the 1-2 years of nothing but WORK are worth it? I want it bad, but am i willing to give up my health since it's already deteriorating in college? That's the concern.

 
moneymogul:
Alternative to banking= S&T

Arguably a worse alternative if we're incorporating the economy and future focus on technology into our reasoning.

Arguably a better alternative if we're incorporating hours and relative pay. Techology has already done its toll on s&t, arguably.

 

Does anyone think that the hours will get better as the financial sector declines? It seems like they're going to have a more difficult time attracting people to work the same hours pre-crash but for a smaller bonus and probably small bonuses in the future.

 
Hayek:
Does anyone think that the hours will get better as the financial sector declines? It seems like they're going to have a more difficult time attracting people to work the same hours pre-crash but for a smaller bonus and probably small bonuses in the future.
Here's what I think: more work for the fewer bankers in the short-run, but in the long-run we'll see more banks specialized in their own niches. So, more of the banks like LAZ/EVR/GHL, more of Qatalyst/Centerview/Financo, etc.
 

Plenty of options outside of banking if you can handle the loss of "prestige."

  1. Corporate/commercial banking - companies will always need debt: revolving credit, short term loans, etc for working capital needs. Also loan syndication for LBO. 50-60 hours a week for 65-70k all in. Corporate bankers probably make same base with 10-20k bonus

  2. F500 finance. This obviously isn't going anywhere. Companies are l going to need people to work FP&A, treasury, etc.

  3. PWM managing rich guys money. Dumb rich people will always need this to be done for them. A couple of the BBs actually offer a typical analyst experience as opposed to being cold calling & running around to get AUM at the junior level sweatshop.

  4. Big 4 accounting

 
n1cktm:
Plenty of options outside of banking if you can handle the loss of "prestige."
  1. Corporate/commercial banking - companies will always need debt: revolving credit, short term loans, etc for working capital needs. Also loan syndication for LBO. 50-60 hours a week for 65-70k all in. Corporate bankers probably make same base with 10-20k bonus

Isnt Commercial/Corporate banking starting salary 60-70K, then maybe 10-30k end of year bonus..

 
TheKid1:
n1cktm:
Plenty of options outside of banking if you can handle the loss of "prestige."
  1. Corporate/commercial banking - companies will always need debt: revolving credit, short term loans, etc for working capital needs. Also loan syndication for LBO. 50-60 hours a week for 65-70k all in. Corporate bankers probably make same base with 10-20k bonus

Isnt Commercial/Corporate banking starting salary 60-70K, then maybe 10-30k end of year bonus..

~65k all in was what I was quoted by two professionals currently in the industry. Corporate banking would obviously pay more along the lines of 65-70 starting + bonus. Bonus would be half of IB.

There is more in finance than just banking. For most banking is just used to open doors to other jobs.

 

There definitely is a certain bias that IB/PE/HF is the end-all, be-all of a successful career; I for one used to think that as well. Logically, if you are surrounded by peers and superiors who are bankers, it will be hard to see any other successful career (other than the well known law/medicine fields). What I've realized is, is that there is a good amount of jobs outside of banking that offer plenty of reward in addition to a positive work/life balance.

For example at my aircraft financing firm, everyone here on the deal team gets paid bonuses of at least 50-100% of base, while the deal originators/structurers get bonuses in the multiples of base, much like the pay seen in banking. Plus the hours are very close to 9-5, with a good amount of international travel to meet with airline companies and their executive teams.

I would encourage others to look beyond the IB/Corp Dev/Big 4 net that this site has cast over most of your eyes; the world is a big place.

 

Open a debt collections agency. It doesnt have the glamour or prestige that many here are chasing, but it cost like $10k start the business. All you need is some phones and ex-cons to call people asking for money. Most agencys take in alteast 25% of the debt collected and being that we live in a nation that is in debt up to our eyes its a good venture.

 
MPBYO:
Open a debt collections agency. It doesnt have the glamour or prestige that many here are chasing, but it cost like $10k start the business. All you need is some phones and ex-cons to call people asking for money. Most agencys take in alteast 25% of the debt collected and being that we live in a nation that is in debt up to our eyes its a good venture.

Yup i used to work at a "relatively small" collection agency with three locations... average debt collected each day? $50,000 - 70,000 a day 6 days a week... the guy who ran it was paying the 175 people that worked for him shit wages $24K-38K the few top people lucky if they made $50K+ and the guy who ran it was easily taking home $2M a year

Get it!
 
IlliniProgrammer:
waterloomonkey:
engieeriing has absolutely awfl ramp up the world best programmer makes maybe 200k.
The world's best programmer (now that Steve Jobs has passed) also happens to be the world's richest person.

I didn't know Carlos Slim was a programmer. Good to know.

 

Tech is definitely the way to go. I agree that those in the financial jobs will likely regret staying so long after a while. The banking industry keeps taking hits and with so many other ways to save money, it is only a matter of time.

 

The truth is, there still aren't very many viable alternatives to IB for highly motivated students.

Law and Medicine have both declined to a far greater extent than finance. As depressing as the job market must be for graduating MBAs, the legal job market is worse. And who would go into medicine (4 years of grad school + a residency) with some sort of reform looming?

Consulting is attractive for the same reasons as banking; it keeps your options open, is prestigious, and pays well. The exits from consulting tend to attract a different type of person.

Tech, speaking from experience, will not take the place of finance. To get finance level compensation, you need to get in early enough to get some equity compensation. However, for every Facebook, there are 100 flops. Just going to work for an established tech firm won't make you rich fast, and climbing the ladder will take time like any other f500 job.

Entrepreneurship is awesome (and I think the country would be better off if more people tried it) but the highly motivated people who would be applying to IB/Consulting jobs are inherently risk averse.

So, finance is not what it was 2006-07, and probably won't be for years. But its still the "best" available option.

 
West Coast rainmaker:
The truth is, there still aren't very many viable alternatives to IB for highly motivated students.

Law and Medicine have both declined to a far greater extent than finance. As depressing as the job market must be for graduating MBAs, the legal job market is worse. And who would go into medicine (4 years of grad school + a residency) with some sort of reform looming?

Consulting is attractive for the same reasons as banking; it keeps your options open, is prestigious, and pays well. The exits from consulting tend to attract a different type of person.

Tech, speaking from experience, will not take the place of finance. To get finance level compensation, you need to get in early enough to get some equity compensation. However, for every Facebook, there are 100 flops. Just going to work for an established tech firm won't make you rich fast, and climbing the ladder will take time like any other f500 job.

Entrepreneurship is awesome (and I think the country would be better off if more people tried it) but the highly motivated people who would be applying to IB/Consulting jobs are inherently risk averse.

So, finance is not what it was 2006-07, and probably won't be for years. But its still the "best" available option.

I don't know about Medicine, but prospects for Big Law is the same as it ever was. My ex-gf is a 2L at UPenn (Top 7), and according to her, V10 firms are within arms reach, provided you do some leg work.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.
 
Leonidas:
I don't know about Medicine, but prospects for Big Law is the same as it ever was. My ex-gf is a 2L at UPenn (Top 7), and according to her, V10 firms are within arms reach, provided you do some leg work.

I have some friends at comparable law schools, and while you certainly can get a V10 offer, it depends largely on GPA. Unfortunately, getting a decent GPA at a top lawschool is apparently something of a crapshoot.

There have also been layoffs in BigLaw, and it's a much bigger deal to lose your job as a legal associate than as a banker. Finally, the whole billable hour model is being called into question as legal services become commodities at the lower level. Cravath and Wachtell will always be fine. But there are way more students at t14 schools than there are slots at top firms.

To get back to the main topic, I also think banking will continue to exist, and be attractive, just because it is such an effective training ground. Hedge funds and PE firms will remain profitable barring any horrific government interference. If anything, alternative investments will become more vital to the economy if markets continue to stagnate.

Those firms demand the best trained monkeys, and IB supplies them. Until KKR starts regularly recruiting undergrads, people will go into IB with the hope of making it to the buyside. Which is really what they are already doing: almost all analysts leave after 2 years.

 
Leonidas:
I don't know about Medicine, but prospects for Big Law is the same as it ever was. My ex-gf is a 2L at UPenn (Top 7), and according to her, V10 firms are within arms reach, provided you do some leg work.

So, generally, I'm getting the sentiments that: IBD/HF/PE/VC/PWM have fine outlooks. Big law has a fine outlook. Consulting, especially MBB, has a fine outlook.

Medicine, far as I can tell, has an iffy/poor outlook. Look, comp in medicine has been crap since the "usual and customary" fees stopped being paid. Not to mention the massive opportunity cost! If you're a smart fellow coming out of a target UG, and you've got the option of IB or MBB or going for med school, you'd make a huge mistake to go for medicine. Think about it: after 3 years in IB, you've made $300-500k less taxes, similar for MBB, but or 4 yrs in med school you're in debt at least $100k. For IB or MBB, you get an MBA, go back in as an associate in IB or in an HF/PE/VC, come back making $150k. During the same time, your average newly minted physician will be in a residency paying $40k for another 4 years. When he/she gets out, his/her starting salary is, tops, $250k. And that's in the tippy top specialties.

"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is." - Oscar Wilde "Seriously, psychology is for those with two x chromosomes." - RagnarDanneskjold
 
Walkerr:
I think two people going into banking have a completely different goals than people going into medicine. People don't study medicine because they think they can earn big money. They go into medicine to help other people and stay in medicine.

The two groups have a totally different mentality.

Not always the case my man. I grew up in NYC and plenty of the kids I went to HS with wanted to be doctors to make bank, they didn't give a shit about helping others. All they talked about was starting salaries and wanting to put in the work during residency, set up own shop, work low hour and make 200K+ per year.

Yes on average people going into medicine tend to care more about money, where as with prospective finance monkeys are not motivated by humanitarian goals. Those purely interested in the subject end up becoming professors.

 

I've been struggling between the decision of going to a Target or going to a BS/MD program. With each passing day, I'm leaning more towards medicine. There's not that much "gloom and doom" as you would think there is. There's been a proposed medicare compensation cut of 27 percent, but I highly doubt that its going to happen. It's been postponed multiple times over the past few years and many physicians that I've spoken to don't think its going to happen. There's also some really, really great money to be made in this industry : ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/60145213/2010-MGMA-Physician-Compensation-Sur… ). It really depends what you would specialize in. ER (which isn't to hard to match into) ) physicians work 36 hours per week and make 250-300k per year. Many family care physicians are making 250k using a concierge business model. I could go on and on, but having complete job security and relatively less work hours really appeals to me. By the way, isn't a top tier MBA only slightly cheaper than Medical school? Last time I checked Stanford's MBA program was 190k total and my local private med school was 200k over four years.

 
LifeWithoutWater:
I've been struggling between the decision of going to a Target or going to a BS/MD program. With each passing day, I'm leaning more towards medicine. There's not that much "gloom and doom" as you would think there is. There's been a proposed medicare compensation cut of 27 percent, but I highly doubt that its going to happen. It's been postponed multiple times over the past few years and many physicians that I've spoken to don't think its going to happen. There's also some really, really great money to be made in this industry

So you are still in HS right? What makes you think you would still want to do med after a couple years of classes and you realized you 1)cant hang with the other kids, 2)find material boring, 3)found another subject/profession that you want to pursue. All I'm saying is, unless you are 100% sure you want to do med, I'd try to give yourself as many options as possible.

But back to the topic at hand. I do agree that banking still gives an undergrad the best launching pad.

 
LifeWithoutWater:
I've been struggling between the decision of going to a Target or going to a BS/MD program. With each passing day, I'm leaning more towards medicine. There's not that much "gloom and doom" as you would think there is. There's been a proposed medicare compensation cut of 27 percent, but I highly doubt that its going to happen. It's been postponed multiple times over the past few years and many physicians that I've spoken to don't think its going to happen. There's also some really, really great money to be made in this industry : ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/60145213/2010-MGMA-Physician-Compensation-Sur… ). It really depends what you would specialize in. ER (which isn't to hard to match into) ) physicians work 36 hours per week and make 250-300k per year. Many family care physicians are making 250k using a concierge business model. I could go on and on, but having complete job security and relatively less work hours really appeals to me. By the way, isn't a top tier MBA only slightly cheaper than Medical school? Last time I checked Stanford's MBA program was 190k total and my local private med school was 200k over four years.

ER docs work 36 hours, sure, but they're also working shitty hours – 12 AM to 8 AM and such. Plus weekends or holidays.

Concierge medicine may be the way of the future, true. The best medical business model is an MD/DO supervising several PAs and/or NPs. That's the way.

"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is." - Oscar Wilde "Seriously, psychology is for those with two x chromosomes." - RagnarDanneskjold
 
ssc122:
LifeWithoutWater:
I've been struggling between the decision of going to a Target or going to a BS/MD program. With each passing day, I'm leaning more towards medicine. There's not that much "gloom and doom" as you would think there is. There's been a proposed medicare compensation cut of 27 percent, but I highly doubt that its going to happen. It's been postponed multiple times over the past few years and many physicians that I've spoken to don't think its going to happen. There's also some really, really great money to be made in this industry

So you are still in HS right? What makes you think you would still want to do med after a couple years of classes and you realized you 1)cant hang with the other kids, 2)find material boring, 3)found another subject/profession that you want to pursue. All I'm saying is, unless you are 100% sure you want to do med, I'd try to give yourself as many options as possible.

But back to the topic at hand. I do agree that banking still gives an undergrad the best launching pad.

Yes I'm a senior in High School. The BS/MD program that I got into is at the University of Miami, which isn't that much of a non target as people make it to be on this forum IMO. Many regional banks and some NYC BB (JPMorgan) recruit here. If I decide that I don't want to do medicine, I can always switch into the Econ Major. Thankfully, the program requirements to matriculate into the med school are not that demanding either, so I'd be able to double major in Econ/Bio if I wanted too.

UncleMilty:
LifeWithoutWater:
I've been struggling between the decision of going to a Target or going to a BS/MD program. With each passing day, I'm leaning more towards medicine. There's not that much "gloom and doom" as you would think there is. There's been a proposed medicare compensation cut of 27 percent, but I highly doubt that its going to happen. It's been postponed multiple times over the past few years and many physicians that I've spoken to don't think its going to happen. There's also some really, really great money to be made in this industry : ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/60145213/2010-MGMA-Physician-Compensation-Sur… ). It really depends what you would specialize in. ER (which isn't to hard to match into) ) physicians work 36 hours per week and make 250-300k per year. Many family care physicians are making 250k using a concierge business model. I could go on and on, but having complete job security and relatively less work hours really appeals to me. By the way, isn't a top tier MBA only slightly cheaper than Medical school? Last time I checked Stanford's MBA program was 190k total and my local private med school was 200k over four years.

ER docs work 36 hours, sure, but they're also working shitty hours – 12 AM to 8 AM and such. Plus weekends or holidays.

Concierge medicine may be the way of the future, true. The best medical business model is an MD/DO supervising several PAs and/or NPs. That's the way.

Right, but they rarely have hours like that. Most ER docs will have shifts in he middle of the night maybe twice in a month.Either way, an ER doc has predictable work hours and no call. IMO, I still feel medicine is more of a "guaranteed" path to an upper middle class lifestyle. If a medical student can't match into a high paying specialty (400k+) out of medical school, he could always go into internal medicine residency and then get a fellowship in cardiology, hematology, etc. after. It all depends on how much time the medical student is willing to put into during residency. To get the high paying jobs in finance (Private Equity/Hedge Funds) you have to be extremely lucky and know the right people. Even then, there's always a change of getting laid off if the fund collapses or if you can't climb the corporate ladder. I don't know, I rather not make anything until i"m 31 and have a stable income of 400k after residency/fellowship for the rest of my career.

 
lifeofpurpose:
anyone here ever watched "million dollar listings"... I would say they make about 500k easily

Yes watched. There's on word that pops up: sales. You don't have to be a genius to be a real estate agent. You definitely notice that when you're watching that series. To continue; i would prefer to own real estate and let it out to businesses. Sign a contract with a business, that has stable cash flow, and you have X money coming in every month for a known period.

 
Walkerr:
lifeofpurpose:
anyone here ever watched "million dollar listings"... I would say they make about 500k easily

Yes watched. There's on word that pops up: sales. You don't have to be a genius to be a real estate agent. You definitely notice that when you're watching that series. To continue; i would prefer to own real estate and let it out to businesses. Sign a contract with a business, that has stable cash flow, and you have X money coming in every month for a known period.

Actually, insurance sales is insanely lucrative with the right commissions. Especially if you can get small businesses as clients. Negotiate a small discount for the business's exclusivity, then let the company subsidize it a bit more before the employees have to pay. By the time they see the bill, it is substantially cheaper than comparable products.

And there we have it: 40+ premiums being renewed regularly. The great thing is people hardly ever change insurance unless they get pissed off. I know several guys doing mid six figures suburbia doing that...you would never guess it looking at them. But it is part of a careful image: you don't want your insurance salesman to look like he is making bank.

 
techtoIBD:

I put my head down in the past few months and managed to secure a good IBD role (M&A team). However I think it's a step back as having interviewed with several MDs I don't think it's what I want to do anymore. The role I'm working in now at a tech firm is basically the same thing as IBD - juniors support seniors in their sales pitches - except in tech your treated better and your work actually matters lol.

My current manager (in tech) feels I find this role too easy/boring and should aim for more challenging teams at the tech firm and is happy to refer me (or promote me if I want to stay). The problem is I agree with him but I'm not sure what to go for.

Finance - I'm not a markets person so that eliminates pretty much everything except IBD.
Consulting - I've been told the first few years are mostly Excel/PowerPoint too.

Sticking to tech may be my best bet but I'm not sure what role/team would be stimulating. What's the best way to find a good career path in this case?

so you've been having this job all this time, while you've been writing in other threads totally different stuff? or are you inflating your profile(s) again?

 
techtoIBD:

I put my head down in the past few months and managed to secure a good IBD role (M&A team). However I think it's a step back as having interviewed with several MDs I don't think it's what I want to do anymore. The role I'm working in now at a tech firm is basically the same thing as IBD - juniors support seniors in their sales pitches - except in tech your treated better and your work actually matters lol.

My current manager (in tech) feels I find this role too easy/boring and should aim for more challenging teams at the tech firm and is happy to refer me (or promote me if I want to stay). The problem is I agree with him but I'm not sure what to go for.

Finance - I'm not a markets person so that eliminates pretty much everything except IBD.
Consulting - I've been told the first few years are mostly Excel/PowerPoint too.

Sticking to tech may be my best bet but I'm not sure what role/team would be stimulating. What's the best way to find a good career path in this case?

Did you get the IBD offer through OCR? If not, please tell us how you got it. If yes, then you were still in school during recruiting. In that case, how did you work for a tech company at the same time? I think you owe us some explanation and clarification.

 

Sounds like you need to do some soul searching about what you find appealing. Though I'd be careful wishing for 80-110hr weeks. I've never understood why people think BB finance is the be all and end all career path, since tech dwarfs finance.

 
ArcherVice:

Sounds like you need to do some soul searching about what you find appealing. Though I'd be careful wishing for 80-110hr weeks. I've never understood why people think BB finance is the be all and end all career path, since tech dwarfs finance.

From what I have heard, many tech startups have their long hours too. Here I quote from @GSElevator:

"If you still want to go to Silicon Valley, be my guest. But the grass is greener on the other side because it’s fertilized with bullsh*t."

 

I'm not sure what explanation you are looking for. I graduated last year and took a job at a tech firm that I interned with. I have been there ever since. Based on manager feedback I started to look at other roles and IBD appealed.

I obtained the job through contacting a recruitment agency this year (i.e. much after I graduated). The firm were specifically looking for someone who was not 'analyst analyst analyst' (i.e. had technical skills but no business/social skills) and therefore my profile appealed. I interviewed many times over the past couple of months and got the offer. I thought I wanted IBD but after interviewing/speaking to the MD's it just look like more of the same of what I'm doing already (in a different environment).

I just checked the profiles mentioned above. It seems cujo.cabbie is unemployed and I could not find information on the other profile that I'm being linked too. I would appreciate admin looking at the IP address of this post and confirming it is different as this thread has gone astray.

 
techtoIBD:

I'm not sure what explanation you are looking for. I graduated last year and took a job at a tech firm that I interned with. I have been there ever since. Based on manager feedback I started to look at other roles and IBD is something I got interested in after speaking to a former banker (who is now at my tech firm).

I obtained the job through contacting a recruitment agency this year (i.e. much after I graduated). The firm were specifically looking for someone who was not 'analyst analyst analyst' (i.e. had technical skills but no business/social skills) and therefore my profile appealed. I interviewed many times over the past couple of months and got the offer. I thought I wanted IBD but after interviewing/speaking to the MD's it just look like more of the same of what I'm doing already (in a different environment).

I just checked the profiles mentioned above. It seems cujo.cabbie is unemployed and I could not find information on the other profile that I'm being linked too. I would appreciate admin looking at the IP address of this post and confirming it is different as this thread has gone astray.

BB, MM, or EB investment banks do not recruit their IBD analysts the way you described. Very small boutique banks may be. In that case you are not talking about the typical "IBD offer". Are you sure the offer you got is a front office position? Or is it middle office or back office position?

 

For me its not the hours that are the problem here. I was encouraged by my manager to seek more challenging work/teams, which I thought IBD would provide, and hence I applied. It seems to be similar to the role I'm currently doing which is why I'm not so sure if it's a step back taking the IBD role (and if not, what is a 'challenging' team).

 
techtoIBD:

For me its not the hours that are the problem here. I was encouraged by my manager to seek more challenging work/teams, which I thought IBD would provide, and hence I applied. It seems to be similar to the role I'm currently doing which is why I'm not so sure if it's a step back taking the IBD role (and if not, what is a 'challenging' team).

If it is similar to what you are doing, do you think it is an IT back office role at investment bank, not the front office role? Not every job offer from an investment bank is an "IBD offer".

 

HedgeKing - The offer for IBD is specifically in the M&A team. It is a known firm. I'm not sure why they were hiring outside of the typical cycle. My current role isn't 'directly relevant' but both roles are basically juniors doing analysis/presentations/models etc to support senior staff in their sales activities.

ArcherVice - I'm not working at a startup but a known tech firm. I posted on here for more info on what would be a 'more challenging team' as the current tech role is not doing it for me and the IBD role looks similar.

 
techtoIBD:

HedgeKing - The offer for IBD is specifically in the M&A team. It is a known firm. I'm not sure why they were hiring outside of the typical cycle. My current role isn't 'directly relevant' but both roles are basically juniors doing analysis/presentations/models etc to support senior staff in their sales activities.

ArcherVice - I'm not working at a startup but a known tech firm. I posted on here for more info on what would be a 'more challenging team' as the current tech role is not doing it for me and the IBD role looks similar.

man, wtf do you want from these forums? please stop lying and wasting everyone's time

looks like you got your answers for your fictional scenarios anyway

 

animalz - I was not going to bother with you but: wtf do you want from me? You don't know anything about me so how can you judge I'm lying? If anything you look like the troll and time waster here. Go and work harder before you get fired (if you even have a job) instead of spamming my thread.

Dingdong08 - yes, this is what I meant by the post above. I feel moving to banking now will be more of the same. I looked into quant positions but you typically need higher level math to succeed. Is there something 'in between' in terms of intellectual stimulation that you know of?

 
techtoIBD:

animalz - I was not going to bother with you but: wtf do you want from me? You don't know anything about me so how can you judge I'm lying? If anything you look like the troll and time waster here. Go and work harder before you get fired (if you even have a job) instead of spamming my thread.

i'll always take a moment to say hello when i spot your thread hopefully this account of yours also gets banned

 

B.) Lockheed Martin has what seems to be a solid 3 year FMLA type program. I have a friend who is in it and he started at about 55k and almost never works more than 40 hours. It seems he's able to do all three rotations at the same location.

A.) Your going to seriously limit your success if your unwilling to work more than 8 hours a day. IB is the extreme and I can understand not wanting to work 100 hours a week. But you have to be willing to work 50-60 hours on a regular basis if you are ever going to make CFO of even a 7-11 store.

E.) Non-profit might work out well, they generally don't work much and can make decent $ in some cases. Maybe working for the government would be a good move for you. Pay can be decent at the Federal Reserve/SEC and the hours are great.

 

Regarding FMP type programs.. most don't require drastic changes. Sure you will rotate positions every 6/12 months, but that doesn't mean you have to move to different states to do so. I work in one and I can stay in my state for the 2 years if I want to - but the options are there to go elsewhere if you want. Just find a program that is right for you. There are tons out there, but I am only familiar with the ones in the A&D industry (Lockheed, Raytheon, UTC, BAE Systems, Boeing, GE), but I know there are plenty more in different industries (J&J for example).

Great way to get to see a few different areas of finance. Let me know if you have any questions on these types of programs and I can try to help you out.

 

Thanks for the responses so far - very helpful.

marine: I didn't mean to imply that I never want to work more than 8 hours a day; I was just trying to make it clear that I have no interest in IB-style hours. I'm comfortable with 50-60 hours. Also, I think non-profit might be somewhere down the line, but I'm pretty sure that at least for the first part of my career, I'd like to go the for-profit route.

j-rad: That's very interesting and relieving to hear that not all FMPs require relocation. I was really into the idea, then I looked at GE (which seems to be everyone's model FMP) and it looked like you are required to move all around the country during your rotations. Can you tell me a little more about the structure of FMPs, or at least the one you're in? What areas do you get to work in? Do people usually move into one of those areas full time after the FMP? Do FMP participants usually end up going for an MBA?

both: Do you need to have an engineering background to do an FMP at an aerospace company? Or more generally, do FMPs need to have backgrounds in the type of industry they're working in? Aerospace and defense companies seem really cool to me, and I have some minor background in computer science with an interest in physics and math, but I'm certainly no engineer. Would I still be able to do a program like that?

Thanks!

 

You may want to consider management consulting (McKinsey, Bain, BCG and others). They are known to develop CEOs in a swath of industries - from finance and investment management to nonprofits.

I've worked in both finance and consulting, and can say that your science/math background will be appreciated in management consulting.

Also, if you want to see if you are a good enough fit for Lockheed/other defense companies, I would try out a summer internship there. A lot of those positions require straight engineering but if you have computer science, you can always learn on the job.


Chase Us, Break In http://chasingconsultantsbreakingbankers.blogspot.com/

 

I have no formal experience in A&D, and I got the position. You definitely don't need engineering experience for the programs I am familiar with - most companies will have separate programs/jobs for people with that background. The "F" in all of these programs stands for the same thing - Finance.. engineering won't play much of a role. I know people in several programs and none have an engineering background. These programs are looking for leaders - but of course experience in the industry is never a bad thing. When I was going through the interview process, they were looking for a strong academic background and even stronger leadership skills. The only experience I had in the industry was that I covered it in my school's investment fund for a year - but they seemed much more interested in all of my leadership positions/EC's than just that.

GE's FMP will require you to relocate to the area your group is in. So if you got into GE Aviation, you would be in Ohio for the two years (I think that's where Aviation is at least). But, there are many more FMP programs than just GE. Plus, if you have a genuine interest in A&D, GE might not be your best bet because you might not get into that division. Also, GE more or less chooses what rotations you do over the two years from what I know - there are a couple of people on this forum that are currently in GE's FMP, so if they see this they can comment on that more accurately.

The program I am in is structured as follows: 2 years, 4 six month rotations. It's a conglomerate so there's more than just A&D, and they want you to experience both the commercial side as well as A&D. Your first rotation is assigned, and after that you have a say in where you go next. There are around 70 rotations, in-state (where the company is HQ'd), and out of state/international. A lot of people do one/two out of state, but not everyone. Around the 5 month mark, you submit 6 preferences for your next rotation, ranked in order, along with reasons why you want each. The managers match everything up and try to give you something on your list. Seniority plays a big role, so 3rd/4th rotations will generally get better ones than a 2nd will. But, it's based on performance so a 3rd rotation can beat out a 4th rotation if they both have the same #1 pick and the 3rd has better performance reviews. So, work hard and you get your top choices.

The unique thing about my program is that the company owns six different businesses that you can go to. There are a wide variety of rotations, so it's easy to find ones you are interested in. The more "lucrative" the rotation, the more competition (as expected) so those generally go to 3rd/4th rotations. Examples of these are Strategy/Corp Dev., Internal Audit (Corporate HQ), and international rotations. There are a ton of accounting/ops rotations, FP&A, finance, etc.. You'll work in the same areas no matter which program you go in. I know J&J's program is more geared towards accounting, but I think you'll see a lot of these positions in any program. Again, people in GE's or elsewhere can chime in since I can only speak to what I see in mine.

Someone posted this link a while back when I was looking into leadership programs - http://www.eep.com/merchant/newsite/best_leadership_rankings.htm

If nothing else it will give you a list of some companies that offer them - but pretty much any F500 will have something I have found.

Hopefully this gives you some more information. Any questions let me know.

 

Breakingbankers, I appreciate you chiming in as well, although I don't think I'm interested in the consulting route. I prefer more concrete finance. Also, although a summer internship would be ideal, I'm now already in the summer before my senior year, so it's a bit late for that.

Incidentally, has anyone here done spring semester internships? I'm planning on finishing classes in December, so I have the spring semester free, and I was thinking of looking into spring internships. Do the big firms have such things?

 

Energy IB is what Im still aiming for. If that dont work out, I might have something lined up in energy trading. But honestly, who knows...should of stuck to accounting, so much safer.

 

I really want to work in distressed investing. Wanted to work in that particular group over the last summer but didn't get it and ended up working for a different product group. I'm not sure what the major distressed funds are yet, but still doing research. Hopefully, I can secure a summer internship with a distressed fund for the upcoming year. If anyone can chip in and give me a few names, it would be great.

 

You are basically describing high-level investment banking. Investment banking at the highest levels (Managing Director and Director / Executive Director) is all sales. At that level, you are essentially a financial adviser who manages relationships and opines on corporate finance matters. M&A, ECM, DCM, LevFin and lending are just products that these relationships managers pitch at times.

If you want to be a relationship manager at the investment banking level, you need to earn your stripes managing execution at the VP level, or managing the process at the Associate level, or managing the details at the analyst level.

Given that you are a professional, your only real way of breaking into banking is through a MBA. An extreme minority can lateral in at the MD level but that option is reserved for top executives on the industry side (i.e. a CFO at a Tech or Energy company coming in to advise similar companies in the space).

 

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Get busy living
 

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