Post-MBA associates - what's the point?
According to my observations, most associates that enter IB post MBA have several characteristics in common. First, most of them went to crappy or semi-crappy schools for undergrad. In addition to that, they worked in some crappy jobs like HR/payroll analyst at the local office of a restaurant chain, loan administrator at some regional bank, or auditor at Big 4 at best. I think that many of them couldn't make it to IB after undergrad or didn't even try as they knew they didn't stand a chance. My impression is that they view their MBA and their IB gig as a chance to redeem themselves and put some 'prestigious' names on their resumes. It’s not that I haven’t seen post-MBA associates with impressive backgrounds, but these are not in the majority. Most associates I’ve seen are really mediocre. I also have the impression that most of these guys don’t know exactly why they want to do banking, which is funny because they are supposed to be hired for the long term, but I don’t think that most of them really have that intention, or even if they do, they don’t know what they are getting into and soon bail out. Some stay because they don’t know what else to do. Isn’t that one of the reasons that you have so many bitter VP’s and MD’s who entered post-MBA and remained trapped with no good exit options and take out their insecurity for being mediocre on their underlings. I think the result is that one of the big differences between mid-level to senior folks on the buyside and sellside comes down to buyside folks being overachievers who managed to actually achieve what they wanted, while sellside associates, VP’s and MD’s being bitter and insecure as they failed to live up to their aspirations during their whole life, with IB being one of their biggest achievements. Seriously, the only reason that most of these people managed to get jobs in IB after MBA is that they face lower competition at that level as most analysts don’t want to go back anyway.
Have you found these points to be true in your experience? As most of these people are not dead set on staying in banking, what is the point of going in if their exit options are reduced compared to those of the analysts? Most PE shops won’t hire them, HF even less so, corpdev or corporate finance are jobs you can get without IB experience. So why waste 2-3 years to go back to square zero? I am excluding the small part of MBA hires that are really talented and passionate about the job and know that they want to make MD’s.
I think you're going to take a little heat for the tone of the post (a bit harsh), but I find it pretty interesting and definitely see that happening. Lots of associates have no clue what they're getting themselves into (similar to lots of analysts having no clue what they're getting themselves into), but analysts have exit ops and can rebrand themselves, whereas associates have MBAs and really can't do much. They need the job to pay the bills and, quite frankly, they just aren't as marketable as a pre-MBA 24 year old with banking experience. Most associates/VPs I know are just as miserable, if not more so, than analysts because they work nearly as many hours, are more responsible, and tend to have families (thus, more stress from significant other b*tching about them never being home). Life must SUCK for post-MBA associates...
Some of what you say is true to a degree but you're really underestimating the type of people that are in the top MBA programs right now. Even career switchers have impressive careers in other areas. It's not like some idiot from a no name undergrad degree, bad gpa, and bad work experience goes to HBS and becomes a bad associate.
hopefully you're not talking about john rolfe.
"I am excluding the small part of MBA hires that are really talented and passionate about the job and know that they want to make MD’s."
funny. nice caveat.
yeah why does anyone go to college if they cant get into HYP? such pleibian illusions of grandeur.
Just because someone had a mediocre background, it doesn't mean they are not equally as productive as the people who actually get those IB analyst jobs. They just have less pedigree, so they can't land those jobs initially. That's why they needed the MBA, to show employers that they are actually more productive than their previous background suggests. Not to mention, many of them might not have been interested in IB as undergrads, or maybe didn't even know about the career early enough. It's like saying, why are there all these people with good jobs who had bad high school grades, test scores, etc.? Because, if you messed up in high school, you can use college to makeup for it and show people how talented you really are. Or think of all the people who were terrible students, but once they get in the real-world, their true colors shine through and they become really successful.
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That's true, but I am not discussing people who really love the job. From what I have seen, most associates are not there because they love finance. I have found most to have little clue as to what the job really entails. Most of them don't even seem to realize that it is a sales job. It's not like the analysts know it all either, but in their case, they have a 2-year plan in mind anyway. With associates, that 2-year horizon doesn't exist and I think that what most of them have in mind is much more indefinite and unrealistic than the analysts. That in my opinion results in disappointment and bitterness afterwards. Although associates are supposed to be more mature in their choices and more informed as to their options, it does not show when they make the move into IB.
Yes, analysts are smarter than post MBA associates, however the associates have the drive to do well. You will be surprised how many very smart analysts burn out never to go back to Wall Street or anything finance related. Banks like post MBAs with loans and families because they are committed and will do what it takes. Ultimately you need a combination of brains and drive to be successful
If a big part of somenone's motivation is to pay off their loans, I don't think that they are going to last in IB. They will be driven by the wrong thing. As soon as the loans are repaid, the family thing works in the opposite direction and most of them would be prone to leave in order to have time for their family. The ones that stay are either the minority that really likes banking, or the ones who are chasing some unrealistic exit options, which never materialize and they are trapped and miserable. The others exit after their 2nd or 3rd year.
If a big part of somenone's motivation is to pay off their loans, I don't think that they are going to last in IB. They will be driven by the wrong thing. As soon as the loans are repaid, the family thing works in the opposite direction and most of them would be prone to leave in order to have time for their family. The ones that stay are either the minority that really likes banking, or the ones who are chasing some unrealistic exit options, which never materialize and they are trapped and miserable. The others exit after their 2nd or 3rd year.[/quote]
Get a mortgage on a nice house and send your kids to a nice private kindergarten - and then see how motivated you can get - haha!
Whoa. Way too many misconceptions on here. I'm not even sure where to start and I don't have the energy to tackle all of them.
As a first year at a top MBA program, recruiting for banking, let me dispel some of your thoughts about the "kind of people" who come in as associates. The most common I've seen are:
Quite a far cry from what you listed above. The guys who have an industry focus and specialization can do phenomenally well as senior bankers covering the space that they're passionate about. It's rare to see this level of commitment or dedication from someone right out of college.
And yes, it's true that not everyone was very familiar with investment banking or what it entailed when they were in college. Some of them did not go to Ivies or equivalents for undergrad (but were top students at whichever schools they went to). A lot of others may have went to targets, but didn't want to do banking at the time.
So if you graduate with an MBA from a top B-school and enter GS/MS/JPM as an associate are you stuck there without any real exit opportunities? Is where you choose after an MBA generally where you remain because your biggest career changing opportunity (your MBA) is now finished or can you still move into PE or HF at some point?
Associates are pretty much stuck unless you change careers.
mba2012, please wait until you actually start working before explaining to me who can do well as a senior banker and why. You have listened to too many 'Why banking' stories by your classmates and have believed the BS they feed recruiters about how their passion for their pre-MBA field made them go into IB. First of all, people do not go into a coverage group in IB because they were so passionate about their industry. That's just the way candidates try to tailor their experience to IB because they think that it would be the easiest way to get in. Anyway, your prior experience in one department at one company does not make you a good coverage banker for the whole industry. You should have realized at least that by now. Passion and interest do make a difference, but not specialized experience by itself. But don't tell me that all these guys who want to leave their industry are passionate about it. They got in, decided that their jobs sucked, went for an MBA and are now thinking that IB will suck less or even if it sucks more, the money will compensate them for that and they are BS-ing recruiters with all that 'I am passionate about my prior industry, but I left it because in IB I will have more opportunities to make a difference in it' crap. For most of them that is the first step to disappointment. Few are really passionate about finance in general and will last past their 3rd year. As I said, most of your classmates will be back to square zero within 3-5 years.
Curious Kong - yes, i'd say so. Being a post-mba associate at a bank is usually the exit opportunity. Of course, there are stories of associates who make the switch into PE/HFs, etc. but it's much more difficult because the process is not as standardized as the pre-mba track. Positions at PE/HF shops come up sporadically at the post-MBA/VP level. It's definitely a 'right place, right time' type of position. Even then, many of those places will be reluctant to take a chance on an i-banking associate with no buyside experience (more expensive, too much time to train, etc.). Furthermore, I've come to find that many bankers (more seasoned) have a difficult time making the transition from sell side to buyside. It's a pretty different skillset and even at my shop, I've seen some senior folks only last a year or two before leaving.
Sorry but I'm going to abstain from this thread. The opinions are way too extremist for my tastes. Good luck.
Read threads by GenghisKhan. Most of the MDs/CEOs/top guys at most banks were post-MBA banking/trading associates. Not pre-mba post-mba.
Or go read leveraged10x's blog/thread. He explains how HYP--> analyst --> PE associate --> top MBA. Basically lots of people were stuck then too.
Check out the associates at evercore, greenhill, perella etc. great credentials, often HBS/Wharton, ivy undergrad with analyst experience at a bulge bracket
I'm a 2nd year associate who came from B-school. There are some good observations here and I have enjoyed reading how the average analyst views the average associate.
I actually think a lot of these observations about mediocrity and such apply to more than just associates and to more than just banking for that matter. I have a few thoughts here, so I'll just ramble a bit here and give my personal thoughts:
I was in the military after undergrad then i went to b-school to get into banking. You could say I am one of those who couldn't get into banking out of undergrad. However, I have learned a lot from being an associate and I enjoy the work. So for now, I think this job is good for me and I'm going to hang on for a bit. Could I have made more money if I got that buy-side job out of b-school or one of several other career paths? Yes. Do I wish I was doing that right now? (honestly, sometimes yes and sometimes no). However, the thing I do know is that I have not mastered or come close to mastering a lot of the things I do in my job and as soon as I begin to master an aspect I find myself getting more and more responsibility with clients and with executing transactions. However, I can see how eventually this will get old and to be honest I'm always talking to recruiters and friends on the buy-side about what the future may hold. But for now, I am happy learning a great deal and getting some interesting experience as well as exposure to executives at clients (experience that I believe is giving me insight into how Companies function which I expect will be helpful knowledge in the future).
For now, I think the associate thing is a solid option and I'm learning a great deal. I know I don't want to be an MD (or VP for that matter), but I don't see any real reason to quit right now and I'm not sure what I really want to do next.
I'm not sure how common my outlook is, but I think its one perspective from the associate side on this topic worth reading. I know analysts love to bash associates on here and to be honest, i hate most of the associates I work with in my group too... they are a bunch of douches who really are mediocre at best. But hey, maybe I am exactly the same as them. So I can understand the hatred I hear from the analysts.
Do you reach out to recruiters or do they reach out to you? What type of roles are they recruiting you for?
Not everyone decided they wanted to work in the investment banking industry when they came out of their mother's womb, and therefore their undergrad school of choice may have not been the best in regards to recruiting for IB positions.
Please excuse your big-headed comments about career changers who decided to join the IB industry post-MBA because that was their most efficient route of entry. Some people don't have the luxury of going to Ivys and Targets for undergrad (different reasons for different folks)
Look, I don't care why you went to your undergrad and took the job you worked in before banking. I am more interested in why many post-MBA associates go into IB ignoring the information about the nature of the job and the lack of exit opps only to end up out of the industry in a few years. I was also interested in others' thoughts about how this situation shapes the work environment in IB, given that many associates stay because are sort of trapped - they don't like the job, but don't want to take a paycut and stay and scramble for some non-existent exit opportunities. No need to get defensive about your choices before IB.
@Blue Baller: thanks for your opinion.
@mba2012: Extremist?! If you think that the opinions here are extreme, I don't know how your refined taste will handle a situation when a VP tells you that you are a moron for not making sure that the heading on page 34 is underlined. No need to hide your head in the sand when confronted with information you don't like. I don't know whether to wish you success in getting an offer as not getting one might be a blessing in disguise for you. Best of luck anyway, but keep in mind that the people who manage to stay in the industry have a taste with quite a high tolerance for extremity.
Some of us have social skills and have seen a tit that didn't belong to our mother. we spent a few years after college (a place where we partied and saw the aforementioned boobs) actually learning things that I couldn't teach my 8 year old niece. I'm super glad you can beat the piss out of me at excel, I will remember that when you stammer and stutter when you are forced to speak face to face with a client who, unlike yourself, did not spend his formative years playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Die in a fire.
xoxo, hope that helps
Look, if you don't have anything valuable to say, please don't bother showing off your frustration, which only serves to prove my observations. You did a great job demostrating your superior communication skills to everyone. Your ability to control your emotions reeks of maturity, which I am sure your clients appreciate.
^You sound bitter bro. No exit op for u !!!!!!!
A requirement for being an analyst is no social skills? Learn something new every day.
@suckmydick,
I don't think you realize there are exit opportunities for associates--just not PE usually. There are plenty of F500 corp dev jobs in nice parts of the country with a lower cost of living to raise a family. I can't speak for anyone else, but I plan to chase i-banking because I really like finance and want to become an MD; one day I want to start my own boutique. If I really hated banking, I would stick it out for 3-5 years, get some industry experience, and use my service academy, top B-school, headhunter, and military contacts to get a job somewhere else.
When you were at your finance club meetings at Harvard/Yale/Princeton I was getting the sh*t kicked out of me in military training after class at the academy. I was smoking a cigar on Saddam's palace looking over the lighted city of Baghdad at night when you were cranking excel models as an analyst. I'm not knocking what you do--I even tried doing an analyst stint before B-school, but maybe you should consider that not everyone wanted to take the path you did because they are driven by different things.
I think you have not read my postings carefully. First, I have acknowledged that there are exit opportunities for associates. You are right about corp dev, but to get that you don't really need to have done IB. You can start right after MBA. That's why I am wondering why people do banking only for exit opps that you can get without slaving away for 3-4 years. If you like finance, by all means keep doing IB. As I said, people who do it because they like it are few and these are the ones that rise to the top and I have only respect for them.
Okay, fair enough. I re-read your post and I guess my only rebuttal would be that most post-MBA associates go into banking either A) want to be in it for the long term (like me) or B) are not sure if they want to do banking for the long term, but figure they can try it out and if they don't like it, they can still get some sort of branding, make 300K/year for 3-4 years, pay off loans, and learn as much as they can so they can walk into another job. Other industries know the tough screening process, work ethic, and demands Associates at top banks go through, and I can only imagine they give generous offers, though not banking money, to those looking to make the career switch. I also think you are underestimating the value of the professional contacts you make and skills you learn as an associate that can be leveraged throughout one's career. Maybe you won't be poised for KKR, but it can take you places. I know a Special Forces guy who went to a top-10 MBA, worked at MS/GS for 6 years up to VP, and then left to be a White House Fellow. Now he's in PE.
I'm on board with OP as well, though I'd probably present my thoughts a bit differently. At the end of the day, lots of people go into banking THINKING they want to do it, then realize they absolutely hate it -- primarily because the work-life balance (which doesn't exist). Lots of people go into banking because of the money -- some realize the money isn't worth the pain, and some feel that the money justifies the pain. Some go into banking knowing it's what they want to do and love the long hours, money, work, etc. Problem is, pre-MBA analysts and post-MBA associates enter in with the exact same sentiments as above -- analysts that want to GTFO have a much easier time doing so (PE, HF, VC, corpdev, MBA to rebrand, startups, etc.) than associates. An associate would need 2-3 years experience to get out, and by that time, they're almost at VP and feel like they can "see the light at the end of the tunnel." They're now making $300k+ per year, and any position they may be able to lateral into (which I'll consider to be corpdev and a lifestyle PE/VC shop) will pay SIGNIFICANTLY less than that. Few associates will be able to justify dropping their current compensation (whether that's a strictly personal or family decision) to go for the lifestyle switch, despite really wanting to do so.
In my experience... 80% of post-MBA associates I've met did it for the dollar. Nearly all of those guys were absolutely miserable after six months, and a large majority were wondering WTF they got themselves into.
I don't share the view that post-MBAs are screwups, because that's certainly not the case, but I can understand wondering WHY an MBA student would want to do banking unless they really know what they are getting themselves into.
^^What is a "a lifestyle PE/VC shop"?
I would pose this question to the OP:
What would you do if you were coming out of a top MBA and did not have the ability to go into PE/HF.
jc, sorry -- I meant a smaller shop. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a place where there isn't a structured recruiting environment and it's more of a "one off" hiring basis. Again, this isn't negative but part of the allure of "the buyside" is compensation, and at most lifestyle buyside shops, comp is a good amount lower than one would make as an associate in banking.
EDIT: Again, lack of clarity. Obviously, not all smaller shops are the same. There are certainly some where the senior guys will work just as hard as guys at megafunds. I'm talking about the funds where the senior guys started their own fund so they could chill out a bit, be a little less active, and focus more on the life outside of the office. This will obviously trickle down to the junior guys, so while life will benefit, comp will not.
Are all post-MBA associates with no banking experience complete morons? (Originally Posted: 12/12/2013)
Nothing else to say. Are they?
Are all first-timers to NYC with no NYC experience complete morons?
Nothing else to say. Are they?
Oh wait that's you, and the answer is yes. Doucherhino.
Doucherhino...is that actually used?
Nothing else to say. Is it?
Oh wait, you used it, and that's unfortunate.
On a lighter note, New York is quite easy in comparison to London and Hong Kong banking. Feel free to disagree.
Truth.
Only if they come from public high schools.
TL;DR Stop being an idiot and give people some slack.
Taking this question as actually serious:
In the eyes of a "rockstar" experienced analyst, 95% of them are complete idiots who need a good dressing down and need to learn their place. They just will not listen to common sense and go with the banking flow.
From the point of view of an experienced associate with many years in the industry and a analyst-associate promotion without an MBA, they just need some time and most of them can get to where they need to be and if they can't they'll be gone in a year. Just think about what a total idiot you were when you just started and all of the things you had to be taught just so you didn't mess up the formatting on a presentation. How many times were you dressed down for not sanity checking the results of a model.
As has been said many times on this forum, analysts think far too much about the importance of modelling and finance to a banking career. A post-MBA associate is recruited to be a career banker, which requires a breadth of skills from rain-making to bitching out uppity analysts.
agree with your big points, but i definitely noticed that non-analyst promote associates were in general miserable to work for. seemed like they loved creating excess bs work to feel like they were an important part of the product chain.
Word on the above response. Extremley sad to see but even some post-MBA associates with 2 yrs banking IB associate experience are still complete morons. Really needs a slap in the face by a BSD, too bad the associate just talks non-stop BS to compensate for his lack of knowledge in banking.
In my experience, yes.
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