Are Small Boutiques even worth it for Internships?

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Check out Tobin & Company

Tobin and Company offers unpaid internships.. does that still help get offers at other banks after the internship is completed, or is it looked upon unfavorably considering its probably easier to get a job there because you do not get paid.

Well lets look at it logically, if people with no IB experience managed to get the roles then either:

A) They had better stats then you.

B) They networked better then you

C) A + B

D) They have connections(But even so, they would have to interview better then you).

Ruskii put it well, but you just need to revisit your methodology OP. If you actually received decent deal experience you can directly speak to, you should at least garner a few interviews.

Another idea is to target other boutiques and MM groups. Making the jump from smaller boutique to BB is quite difficult, particularly in this employment environment.

brand means a lot and plays a factor here

if you are full of unknown internships, recruiters might find people with better brands more interesting... anyway, based on resumes, all people did similar stuff during their IB internships

I was in a similar situation and ended up taking a similar opportunity (i.e. 2 guys sitting in an office trying to do deals, albeit guys with pretty solid backgrounds at M/B/B and some decent buy-out shops). It actually looks pretty good because you will develop solid relationships with executives and top bankers. Also, you will be able talk about almost every aspect of a transaction and hopefully also gain some insight into the day to day running a business.

I leveraged the experience to a great opportunity the following summer.

1) The only time it's "too small" is when they're just business brokers who are putting you on the phone. That is obviously a waste of time.

2) There isn't really a "hierarchy of internships." It just depends what you're into.

I worked at a very small place (BBs, because I actually interacted directly with clients and the senior guys. The pressure and responsibility can also be much higher though. But from an experience point of view, smaller shops are actually much better, IMHO.

a small office, I don't know if you would qualify it as a boutique seeing as we have 5 offices around the nation but my team consists of about 10 people (2 Directors, 3 MDs, 3 VPs, 1 Associate and me as the lone analyst). Everyone above has nailed it, the experience consists of hands on from the beginning (putting the book together for the pitch) to shaking hands and poppin bottles with your colleagues. Well, the last part hasn't happend yet, but I figure it will, especially with a small team. With a small group you can get as much responsibility and exposure as you can handle, which is the greatest asset when you want to apply other places for internships or jobs. I bet if you land a boutique internship, next summer you will be able to reference 2 or 3 deals that you worked exclusively on, from models to handshakes and speak intelligently as if you sourced the deal yourself.

You didn't ask it, but I will just say the boutiques don't bust your balls in terms of hours either. They are very resonable (60-80) and they respect your personal life a little more than the BBs.

Another noteworthy fact, many of the senior guys at these boutiques come as seasoned vets from the BBs also, usually coming with a good amount of street cred has tons of light to shed on you. You have any questions, PM me.

-Seacrest Out

The responses so far have been really great and helpful. The benefit of really getting close to deals and having that experience is something I will definintely consider.

Could some of you who have had this no-name boutique internship experience, however, comment on how it affected your full time recruiting during the fall of your senior year?

This is a concern of mine because I wasn't even granted any interviews with the BB's I applied to for internships despite thinking I had the numbers to qualify. (3.7 non-finance, 1500+, ivy) While being able to speak about specific deals would obviously be great, it won't matter if recruiters pass on my resume again next fall.

Thanks again to all

As long as you can write, "Investment Banking Analyst" on your resume, you're pretty much set no matter which bank you're at... ok, SOME really small regional offices that no one has ever heard of may give you less Street cred.

But I think you'd still be able to leverage this and get offers at bigger banks down the road. Only if you learn absolutely nothing will you be screwed.

For full-time jobs you have to be a lot more careful as your experience at a boutique will be wildly different from bulge bracket jobs.

Not necessarily worse, just more random... so you really need to do your diligence first.

...is this really a question? If you cannot land an MM internship, would you rather just sit on the couch for 3 months? How could FO IBD experience POSSIBLY be bad for BB recruitment?

Agree with above. If that is all you end up with, it's better than nothing. You never know, maybe one of the founders of the boutique has all kinds of contacts up and down Wall Street. Or better yet, you just might like it better and want to stay.

I'm currently working at a boutique as my sophomore year internship and I think it was a smart decision. I'm learning a lot and doing relevant work whereas some of my friends are essentially doing nothing at firms with larger names. I think it depends on your background though - I'm at a non-target school.

I know people with full time BB IB jobs from similar experience..

^thats what I should have asked, thanks. I know its better than nothing. I was wondering if people can still get BB IB jobs with boutique IB experience.

Considering no one (unless you're EXTREMELY well-connected) gets BB SA positions after sophomore year, shouldn't the answer to your question be more obvious?

I wasn't expecting to get the BB internship sophomore year. Im interested about knowing whether boutique IB is the best option for a sophomore who wants BB SA junior summer.

Boutique IB is a great option for both Sophomores and Juniors.

nobody is gona laugh.

id take it right away for the experience, especially if you're from a no-name target.

Dude take that! Its during the classes so its just bonus experience.

All else equal this is a huge advantage for summer analyst recruiting IMO. Plus it'd be enjoyable to work extremely close to the MD and the deals

What downside would there be to working here? No one will laugh at that work experience.

I agree...take it...it's definitely not laughable. All firms start small and the MD has a good resume...

thanks. I'm trying to get into a bigger boutique or MM in the west cost or chicago. when should I start reaching out to those firms. for summer internships? should I start now? I'm making use of the lists provided on WSO. Should I just cold email/call those firms?

Don't be so quick to jump ship. If your MD starts picking up solid deals and you are executing on your end, this could be a good gig. If he plans to grow and you get experience under your belt who knows what will happen, BB is not the end all be all so play out this gig before you start attempting to find other positions.

So what kind of tasks would a some one be working on at a small IB like this?

Would your avg junior be able to work hard and deliver on his part? or do you need to have a few classes before you can really deliver what is expected of you.

what are some of the task that some one like him be asked to work on?

a lot of is just learning the business and lingo. which is pretty important. the one downturn is training. with one MD it is quite hard to learn the technical aspects like modeling and analysis. other than that you will work really close on deals and will get a great exposure.

What's the alternative? There doesn't appear to be any downside to getting the experience.

Youll laugh last when you get a BB job all thanks to this no name internship.

Do it, son.

you guys are making me hard.

This is not going to hurt you at all. It can only help, so why would you not take it...?

thanks for your help. as for the summer would you take this internship vs. a big 4 advisory?

i think you're trolling? yes, a no-name IB internship is better than no internship and yes an IB internship is better than a Big 4 internship for IB recruiting?

with big 4 im almost guaranteed a full-time offer unless i trip on my balls. with this 1 person boutique i have a 1% chance of being hired as full-time. and it is unpaid and the MD is always pitching so never at the office. the reason im asking this is i might have a change at big 4 advisory (finance, risk mgmt, transactions, corp finn). to tell you the truth i worked at this firm fall semester and got an interview at a PE shop...never got the offer. so looks like i will be going back to work for the boutique after winter break. i thinking about doing this until april/may unless i cant find anything else for the summer in that case i will do it until graduation that way i will have 2 full years of part-time internship experience in IB.

The key determinant is the background of the MD and the deals and connections that he/she has. Given the background you provided (ex Goldman, BAML, MS), I'd say sounds pretty solid. This is no small item, as there are a lot of one man M&A / private placement shops out there, most of whom don't come from bulge bracket firms or even from investment banks.

In any case, I say go for it. If you impress this MD, they will be more than willing to lend their connections to help you get a job with a larger firm.

dude are you an idiot? you rather be in the rat race for "exit ops" when you have a chance to work on a start up now..with no one in front of you..

kids make me laugh

I think you should take it unless you can find a deal where they just straight up make you go do due diligence, modeling, etc. instead of administrative work.

I don't know how much experience you have with modeling but if you are looking for a position with more technical experience you should look for a bank that wants super technical, and high intensity work description in the intern position. I interviewed for one like that and they told me the hours I can commit is not enough and this firm was focused on special situations with PE and VC asset classes so the interviewer drilled me on what type of models I can produce and a lot of technical questions.

What type of investment bank is it? Because the models, etc. differ on what sector they are involved in.

I had a similar situation as you when I was a junior, as I did a boutique SA internship and got very little to no modeling experience. I did work on deals and did due diligence and all of that, but the modeling was taken care of by the 1 VP (as I said, it was very small, no FT analysts, the lowest-ranked regular employee was the VP).

That said, I was able to still really talk positively about my experience and was able to leverage it come FT to a top MM IBD that's typically known for technical stuff. I think there are a couple things to note about this: you won't NECESSARILY be at a disadvantage if you can put "Investment Banking Summer Analyst" on your resume, regardless of whether you have modeling experience. I think that in interviews a lot of firms realize that modeling can be taught effectively, and it might be beneficial actually for the new firm you're starting at to start you from scratch anyway during training. So, if you're able to talk about your deals effectively (more qualitatively sometimes), you might actually be at an advantage. Obviously you'll be doing administrative stuff first, as is the case with any unstructured internship IMO, but since there is still potential to work on deals, the "unstructuredness" of the internship might actually help. If you kick ass at the administrative stuff, you develop rapport with everyone at the firm and you will be more and more involved. Kinda what happened in my case.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the replies! It's really nice to hear helpful input.

syoon91: I don't think the bank works on a specific sector. I'll definitely ask for some technical work though. I am still in the process of looking, but I don't think there are many boutiques looking for sophomore interns.

englandoco: I think I will have a similar experience as you. They mentioned that I will be doing research and stuff, but probably won't be touching much modeling until the end of the summer. You mentioned that you grew to be more and more involved, but did you end up with any modeling work towards the end? Did you constantly ask for that type of work? Also, how many hours did you work? It's hard to imagine spending 40+ hours/week doing due diligence. (could be wrong, i have no idea)

Tough question. As a sophomore though, it's not that big of a decision. What really matters is whether you think you'll have a good experience working there or not. And your expectation of dealflow experience here is going to be highly variable. If there's a deal going on, then maybe you'll get to do something, but in reality it'll wholly be up to how much their analyst has the time / wants to teach you. Otherwise it's going to be administrative work and then possibly doing pitches the rest of the time. That said, getting your feet wet and actually seeing what the job is like is never a bad thing. Just weigh it against your expectation of finding a better offer.

How much time do you have to decide btw?

I've got until the end of this week. The only thing I'm worried about is, do you think working at such a small shop will help me or hurt me during the recruiting process? Obviously it will depend if there is any dealflow, but if there isn't any, then will I have wasted a summer's opportunity?

BTW, administrative stuff could mean working on CIMs or industry research reports....half of full time analysts do this at BBs like 30/40 percent of their day (arguable on bank, i knw) anyways...so dnt be thrown off by what they say.

If you think you can handle it, absolutely. This is pretty cut and dry.

If you can handle it and still find time for school and a social life, absolutely. Take every opportunity you can get.

It certainly won't hurt

Take the internship and do FT recruiting at the same time? Or is there a conflict?

If you have 2 job offers lined up, say JP Morgan vs Boutique, I would take the "name brand" every time.

I have worked for 2 boutiqe firms in my life, while the experience I got was excellent, it did not help me get my resume noticed. Each time I networked or was in an interview, I had to spend time explaining what exactly the boutiqe does. I honestly believe my resume was tossed aside because people simply didn't recognize the name of the boutiqe.

Going back, I would love to have had a big name firm on my resume earlier in my career.

Boutique firm > no firm. Take it if you have it. And then produce something of value you can actually write about on your resume.

I agree with both comments above but with some added commentary. A name brand will boost your resume tremendously. Secondly, "boutique > no firm" is correct, but may not completely express the value of the experience you gain. A boutique experience puts you in the game. With nothing, you're just another would-be, could-be. People want to see that you're serious about what you're doing. A boutique experience, while it may not always beat the BB and elite names, is still leaps and bounds beyond nothing.

You probably won’t do much modeling. I’m doing a spring internship at a lower MM boutique and they’ve stressed time and time again they don’t do much modeling. Their work is a lot more qualitative and relationship-based.

It's definitely better than having no internship at all.

That being said, it will only marginally improve your application. You want to show your passion for banking. One way of doing that is to take an internship at a bank. It doesn't matter if it is unpaid or paid as future employers will never ask you this question.

As others have mentioned already, you likely won't do too much modeling. My guess is that you would most likely be doing industry research and operational stuff.