I was just wondering, since everyone talks about Goldman, Morgan Stanley, etc., is there such a thing as "lower" bulge brackets that might be ever so slightly less difficult to get into? Places like Barclay's, Citi, etc. are seldom discussed here (from what I've seen), so are those less desirable/less competitive to some extent?
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Certain groups within banks are harder to get into.
Closed for obvious reasons.
BAML, Citi, UBS
Besides GS/MS and sometimes JPM, just about every "BB" can be "easy" to get into, including citi/boa/ubs/barcap/etc.
Even JPM has a bunch of "nontarget" kids and even high school kids in their program where they rotate every summer and pick whatever division they want for fulltime (someone knows what i'm talking about). Even Baruch is a target for them and there are quite a few Baruch bankers at JPM.
My problem is that I don't even go to a non-target IN NYC like Baruch. I'm from the NW, which isn't in the same ballpark region-wise. But I guess it's comforting to know that I have a shot at non-GS, MS, JPM banks even though I'm from a non-target...
Does anyone know how competitive Barclays is relative to GS, etc.? Somehow, I've always wanted to work for them or BoA (don't ask why. I think it's because they are the first banks I heard about when I was in middle school). One person said BoA isn't as hard, but what about Barclays?
EDIT: Sorry, I'm a bit unfamiliar with the terms, but does Barcap = Barclays?
The BBs such as BOA, Barcap, WB/WS, etc are easier to get into than the top notch shops such as the obvious GS and MS. That said, even those "easier" BBs are very dififcult to break into from a complete non-target without some network support. I'd advise you to find out where your school's alumni have landed and begin reaching out to them. From there, you will have a better shot at breaking into those "easier" BBs as part of a SA program or FT program. Good luck.
The fact that there are a bunch of non-target kids in a bank does NOT imply that the bank is easy to get into. I'm just to tired of writing about the douche-baggerie of people who think that just because they're from a target school they can be more competitive and better than non-target kids... so I'll stop here.
We'll see if you can get into one of these "easy" banks and then you'll see what I'm talking about.
yeah i thikn he meant that.. wachovia bank / wells securities
WB = Warner Brothers
BOA and CITI. Not saying they are worse than the other firms except GS/MS/JPM, but seems they hire more.
What most people don't tend to realize is that its not always clear cut which kids end up at which banks. It's not as if the top 2 kids go to GS the next 2 go to MS, etc. There is a lot of randomness when it comes to picking resumes and once in the interview, a lot is based upon fit.
There were kids at my school with interviews at GS and MS but did not from BarCap or Citi. I myself had multiple offers and interviews but did not get past the first round of my Citi interview.
BofA and Citi hired a lot for full-time due to their severe under-hiring for the summer. To give perspective, JPM's summer analyst class in New York was around 130. BofA's was about 42.
I would say more people want to got to GS/MS for obvious reasons, so they tend to compete less for other candidates. But I wouldn't necessarily say that they're more selective than any of the others.
BarCap and BofA are both still highly selective. They are after all largely legacy Lehman and Merrill Lynch. Pre-crisis, most people wanted to work for the traditional standalone ibanks - GS, MS, LEH, ML. The bankers there had high standard for candidates and continue to do so.
Getting into an "easier" BB is by no means easy in relative or absolute terms.
True that hybrid. I mean look at me I struck out at BB's. But I did hear UBS was pretty easy, esp this year they were calling up past kids and giving them FT offers over the phone.
Citi has 45 people between sales, trading and quants in NYC and 55 globally in the 2009 analyst class (first years). there is not a single BB that is easy to get into...NEVER call wb/wf a BB--that's a disgrace. you are clearly not in the industry and probably not even a senior in college.....i forgot why i haven't been on this site since graduating but now i remeber lol
Hate to break it to ya chief, but I know a lot of ppl who accepted offers at Wells over places like UBS and Citi. However, the comment about Wells not being a global bank is very much true, but based on the ppl I've talked to at Wells this will change over the next 2-3 yrs.
bump
^I think you've been working too hard mr. citi man, a lot's changed. I didn't get into Wells IBD, they only have around 600 bankers total and I have much higher stats than 3.4 from a nontarget.
"Year: Senior Accepted: FT at Citi S&T school: Bucknell/Colgate/Lehigh GPA: 3.4 Accounting: 3.4"
-jgl12345usa
Wells IBD is not bulge by any means...
As for easy to get into, just keep trying and eventually you'll find the right fit for you. It really is mostly about the fit. Anyone with a 3.5 that does anything and can network can get an interview. Then you have to fit better than the rest of the people in your pool in the mind of the interviewers. From what I've seen, fit trumps everything else they look for.
I think GS and MS are generally harder to get into, but between the rest of the BB's it is generally the same. All BB's look for the same criteria in a candidate, and you either have the qualifications or you don't. Where you get interviews/offers also has a great amount of luck to it. Depends on who you networked with, who interviewed you, their mood that day, your mood that day, etc. Overall there is no BB that is really "easier" to get into.
Wells IBD is 7th in M&A for 3Q 2009 and 8 for Debt and 10 for Equity, seems to be doing quite well. I would say BB, and if not now, within a year. http://online.thomsonreuters.com/DealsIntelligence/ReviewsAndAnalysis/R…
I don't think their S&T is that good, but even still I chose GS PWM over Citi S&T, but was rejected from both Citi and Wells for IBD.
Banker88 is correct, I think in general IBD is just harder to break into since it relies on pedigree, a bit of luck, and networking as well as high grades.
Thanks bro, you feel like tossing me a banana?
Wells has done well enough in leagues to be considered a BB I think. But with all this talk of BB's, can we downgrade some? I think UBS should be the first to go, they are 13th in M&A. Also, BoA has been doing really well, I think its now GS/BoA and not GS/MS.
Finally, what's the purpose with the bananas again?
The BAML integration process has been really painful so far, but it has a lot of potential. Merrill was a top BB before it was acquired (MGM was a common acronym a few years back, referring to Merrill, Goldman, Morgan as the top 3 investment banks). And JPM has been doing really well recently. But it's hard to deny that GS/MS really are in a tier of their own, and it'll be a while before other banks get to their level of prestige and league table rankings.
Honestly, people need to stop getting so crazy in terms of which BBs should be BBs, vs. non-BB BBs or some other nonsense. By the way, I meant Wells/Wachovia, sorry for the confusion there. Honestly, a bank is really large, pays what the street pays to analysts, and gets deals, they are a BB - whether they are a weaker BB, or a stronger BB, they are a BB - in terms of rep, everyone can obviously argue all day over the top 3, top 5, top 7 BBs, etc. Focus on landing at a solid firm in a good group with strong deal flow and you will be well on your way. You might not every make it to KKR, but neither will most people - it is what it is - don't dwell on it, make the most of it.
People get so hung up on name, rank, and what others on these forums say that they forget the first rule - they need to actually find a job, in IB, if that's what they want. Don't put the blinders on and ignore everyone outside of GS, MS and 2 elite boutiques. Good luck nontargetbanker - work the network, and keep your eyes open - you'll find something - from there, it will be what you make of it.
I agree 100% bankonbanking. Wells is top 10 in basically everything and is growing tremendously. rocknrolla is just a troll if u see his past posts.
People also should stop dissing MM's and boutiques like Piper Jaffray and Jefferies, banking is banking and most people at schools would be glad to take any banking offer, even at no name boutiques.
The difference between Wells and the BBs is that WFC is a North American business whereas the BBs are global. The OP might wanna try RBS; its probably closer to being BB than Wells.
RBS is dying, I wouldn't go there even over piper jaffray.
I think most users want to stay in the U.S. so for that purpose Wells would be a BB, but obviously if you wanna go international I would think of Nomura (asia lehman), Societe Generale (top 3 in Europe), Rothschild, etc. I also agree with BankonBanking, if its a large bank with solid deals and is top 10, it's pretty much a BB even though its not "global".
banker88: I don't have any credits
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