Backup Plans for IBD
Just out of curiosity, in the event that a student tried preparing for ibanking but couldn't make it into a bulge bracket or even boutique firm, what backup careers might one do instead? PWM? Actuarial work?
Just out of curiosity, in the event that a student tried preparing for ibanking but couldn't make it into a bulge bracket or even boutique firm, what backup careers might one do instead? PWM? Actuarial work?
+273 | My chaotic IB journey | 28 | 23m | |
+211 | MS M&A vs GS HC | 49 | 7h | |
+116 | Anyone live in a different country before? What’s it like? | 45 | 2h | |
+76 | Hazing in the Bullpen. What to do? | 17 | 4h | |
+73 | Improving in TMT | 28 | 1h | |
+54 | MD shoved food down my throat. Is this normal? | 16 | 1d | |
+43 | Later Chodes - I'm Taking My Talents to The Mega Fund Leagues | 10 | 11h | |
+37 | Basically necessary to be a varsity athlete to get BB IB from Bowdoin? | 22 | 2d | |
+21 | Moelis vs PWP | 6 | 4h | |
+20 | London recruiting what based if not networking based? | 21 | 2d |
Career Resources
-S&T -Equity research -Asset management -Corporate finance -Big 4 -PWM -Ops
(In that order)
What position you mean at big 4, audit, m&a, consulting?
you're a joke
haha yeah seriously
I agreed with MD8 for the most part... My first IB related job with an unpaid intern at a boutique (PIPE shop) during my MSF. Those guys went to bat for me at the MM I'm currently at in the same city. If you want it bad enough and apply yourself fully eventually you'll get the position. Keep at it baby and when you need inspiration my 2 favorite video are the Arnold - character (failure is not an option) and the famous Jimmy Valvano speech. Good Luck!
If you want to get back into IB later, I would suggest a corporate development or business valuation position. Do not do PWM if your goal is IB later on.
Isn't corporate development really hard to get in for undergrad students?
Agree w BTbanker. IB will value the skillset developed at all of the above except PWM or Ops. Nothing against them but they require very different skills.
I'd probably put corp dev on the top of the list but you have to be careful....if you don't plan on doing MBA, you have to make sure the corp dev role involves corp finance/m&a, etc (essentially IB for a non bank). Most people I know in IB that made the transition (i.e. not coming from an analyst program or not going to MBA program) came from corp dev.
How would s&t develop a skillset needed for IBD?
Agreed. Maybe he misspelled consulting?
Skillset not so much, but if you're in S&T you have internal mobility on your side (i.e. move to the IB division of the bank you're selling/trading for)
Actually, from what I've seen it's not that easy to transition S&T --> IB internally during FT, since skill sets are different. If anything, there's much more IB --> S&T. While it's really not rocket science, I think they see it as a S&T guy doesn't have training in modeling, corporate finance concepts/ valuations, accounting, etc. while it may be easier for someone in IB to pick up S&T if he/she is passionate about the markets and would have a lot of the basics covered from IB training (outside of say topics on duration and convexity, various forms of derivatives, etc). Note though I said for FT, someone going from S&T SA can probably (more easily) network internally with the IB division and make a case for why they prefer the latter.
US has a ton of boutiques, besides the obvious big and well-known MM banks. Just search around, I'm sure there's a CapIQ list by cities somewhere on WSO. I agree with the above comment that there's a lot of places out there that you can try while simultaneously trying plan B.
Also check out that thread about Big 4 CF. I would argue that ER, CF or valuations at a Big 4 or a shop like Duff & Phelps gives you more relevant skill sets vs. S&T and asset management if IB is what you want to do.
I'd also look into valuation firms like Duff & Phelps or ratings (S&P, Moody's, Fitch), etc. In my experience, most people that go to IB other than typical analyst route are MBAs or coming from corp dev/corp fin/ratings/valuation.
Corp dev is probably difficult to get into as undergrad but larger firms (pepsico, unilever, etc.) have well structured programs that are worth looking into if that's your thing.
There are enough banks and advisory firms out there that you should not need another backup if you apply yourself. You're better off working at a no name boutique doing the actual job function, assuming you're goal is still to break in eventually.
I didn't get BB IB, but in the end I got an even better job. What do you want to do after IB? Maybe you can get that straight out of UG?
I think it heavily depends on which company you do PWM for. At morgan stanley / merrill / ubs yeah it's a pretty unrespected job, but if you work at shops like GS , JP Morgan private banking, CS PWM, those are fantastic units that will give you transferrable sales skills. Remember, hedge funds are trading CLIENTS money, and they have a huge demand for people that can source and retain investor capital.
This place is ridiculous. You think that if you do pwm at MS you're screwed but if you do pwm at CS you're golden?
fed policy
If you're capable of doing actuarial work, you probably don't want to go into IB anyway. There's a reason why "Actuary" is listed as one of the best jobs out there.
my goal is to get into IB, VC, ER, PE, AM, etc
plan b is to work at BIG 4 doing Transactions, M&A, or anything finance related at the BIG 4 then go to plan A
plan c to get a MSF at a good school then do plan A or B then A
plan d is to get a MSA then work at BIG 4 as an admit then go to Plan B then A.
No matter where I go I plan to earn a CPA for sure or maybe a CFA
where does working for a muni issuer fit in?
F500 FLDP and then top MBA
Actuarial work? Sorry, but most IB guys would not be able to handle any actuarial work.
become a firefighter - serious, way better than banking and the money is about the same
Suicide.
Seppuku
My motto is "it's IBD or trading at either Goldman, JP or bust."
I just wished my way in to banking. True story. Didn't even have to do any work ... except read WSO every day.
Come on fellas settle down.
thoughts on corporate/commercial credit analyst?
IMO this would be the best order [assume you missed the boat for ET and S&T as well]
Corporate banking Commercial banking Valuation (think Duff & Phelps) Corporate Finance Asset Management Big 4 Everything else
Corp & commercial banking is very relevant as you are modeling from a credit perspective which is a great transition for Lev. Fin and IBD in general. Also helps when you are working at a BB in a major city, just go up the elevator and network & have a good story.
Duff & Phelps is also good as you gain a solid technical skillset and do plenty of DCF, comps, look at cost/revenue synergies, etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't corporate/commercial bankers pretty much put financial data into a program not Excel) that the bank has and it spits out a acceptance/denial. Of course there is some fuzzyness with big loans that requires whatever adhoc analysis, but it's not like doing a full-on DCF/comps or risks analysis right?
Long story short, yes you're completely wrong. Your post comes off real condescending, almost made me want to throw monkey shit at it.. The equivalence of what you posted is basically: "Dont Ibankers just edit PPT presentations until 2am every night. Not much of the financial analysis is even analysis when you having your MD telling you DCF inputs in order to get the desired valuation." That's just a mirror image of your own words, not actually something that I condone.
You can pretty much marginalize any job when you talk about it that way.
Corporate/commercial banking your obviously protecting the banks balance sheet and making sure the risk/reward is adequate. Obviously everyone uses software and there are automated processes but that is a small part of the job.
Commercial bankers do the same thing except their clients are more in the 50-500MM range and corp. bankers work with syndicated loans whereas commercial is usually just one bank that's extending their balance sheet. Lets not forget the industry analysis that is a part of the work you are doing. You want to analyze client relative it its industry peers, some industries operate with a higher degree of leverage than others. Looking at all your debt service coverage ratios, time-series of performance in comparison to industry peers, qualitative industry analysis (profitability, etc).
^I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that what he was trying to convey is that IBD isn't some esoteric subject like advanced mathematics that only the fabled ivy leaguers can handle (even though the industry recruits "only the best and the brightest" which typically isn't a non-target state school). I think that's more what he meant by saying that even non-target kids can handle it, not that us non-targeters are morons. He's definitely on point when he talks about how F500/Corp Banking/Big 4 are solid options that most people would be very happy with and build solid careers for those who work hard in them and rise to the top.
SB'ed. I have nothing against non-targets, the funny thing is some of the non-targets are actually top schools, just not targets for IBD. The other thing is non-targets offer plenty of opportunities for future success for those who are hard working. When you look at other jobs such as Big 4, Corp fin, some areas of financial services and they won't even discriminate against non-targets and you can still lead a great upper-middle/upper class life.
I'd go into the army (semi srs) and then apply to HBS. Vets get affirmative action for schools and jobs
... or I'd go into something "fun" like magazine editor, fashion designer, etc and I'd be one of the few non finance people at an M7
Actuarial work is really boring and not that technical I'm sure most of you guys could do do it. The coursework and exams are tough but you never use it on the job. It's mostly just database work and writing macros.
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