2/17/11

thoughts?

Comments (31)

2/17/11

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In reply to KarateBoy
2/17/11

KarateBoy:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/for-er-how-m...
Disagree completely. While the best analysts aren't necessarily at BBs, a junior person/associate is far better off at a big name firm. You're guaranteed to be paid at least on par with people of equivalent experience and you'll have better resources, better access to mgmt, etc. When dealing with exit ops or a career change, you'll get the benefit of the doubt of your firm's brand. It's much more common to see an analyst who was an associate at a BB vs a boutique/MM because that person's resume carries more weight. Not right, just the way it is.

I work at a boutique and I'm starting to see some of the differences (notably pay, resources, sales support). While I really like my analyst, I'd probably push harder for a BB if I could do it again. It's hard to say which firm is best but from what I've seen/heard, Barclays (ex Lehman), MS, and BofaML have stellar reputations.

2/17/11

As said above, it is rather an "individual" game. However, ER rankings do tell which houses have a good number of recognized individuals, corporate access, execution, etc. -which is always good to know if you are starting-. The main rankings is Reuter's Extel Awards (http://www.extelsurveys.com).

They don't do US, but here is Europe, Asia and Japan for 2010. They also rank individual analysts per sector, and to avoid the subjectivity of "quality research", they do so in terms of commissions generated.

EUROPE:
1 1UBS
2 2Bank of America Securities - Merrill Lynch
3 3Credit Suisse Securities
4 6Morgan Stanley
5 4J.P. Morgan Cazenove
6 7Deutsche Bank
7 5Citi
8 9 Exane BNP Paribas
9 8 Societe Generale
10 10 CA Cheuvreux
11 13HSBC
12 11Goldman Sachs
13 18Nomura Securities
14 14 Sanford C. Bernstein
15 23Barclays Capital
16 16RBS Global Banking & Markets
17 19 Kepler Capital Markets
18 15 Natixis
19 21 Redburn Partners
20 17 Oddo Securities
21 20 ING Financial Markets
22 (-) Evolution Securities
23 (-)UniCredit
24 22 Commerzbank Corporates & Markets
25 (-)Macquarie Equities

ASIA:
1 4Credit Suisse Securities
2 2 CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets
3 1J.P. Morgan
4 3UBS Asia
5 5Citi Investment Research
6 9Deutsche Bank
7 8Nomura
8 6 Banc of America Securities - Merrill Lynch
9 11Macquarie
10 7Goldman Sachs Asia
11 10Morgan Stanley
12 13BNP Paribas Securities
13 (-) CIMB Securities (Singapore)
14 18RBS Asia Securities
15 17 DBS Vickers Securities
16 14 Kotak Securities
17 (-) Daewoo Securities
18 (-) Motilal Oswal Securities
19 21 Daiwa Securities Group
20 (-) Ho Chi Minh City Securities Corporation (HSC)
21 12 China International Capital Corporation (CICC)
22 16HSBC
23 (-) BOCI
24 (-) JM Financial ASK Securities
25 (-) Standard Chartered Bank

JAPAN:
1 6 Mitsubishi UFJ Securities
2 14Barclays Capital
3 2UBS Securities Japan
4 1Merrill Lynch Japan Securities
5 21 Tokai Tokyo Research Center
6 10Mizuho Securities
7 7Morgan Stanley Japan Securities
8 5Goldman Sachs (Japan)
9 3Nomura Securities
10 13Citigroup
11 11 Calyon Securities (Japan) (CLSA)
12 12 Deutsche Securities Ltd. (Japan)
13 15Macquarie Equities (Tristone)
14 8J.P. Morgan Securities Asia Private
15 9Credit Suisse Securities (Japan)
16 19 Ichiyoshi Securities
17 4 Daiwa Securities Group
18 17 Okasan Securities

In reply to Dank Nugs
2/17/11

I too work in a boutique/middle-market bank like you and I understand where you are coming from. I accepted my offer last January while it seemed none of the BBs were hiring when I was looking. It's a little frustrating to see my younger classmates with comparable resumes being offered job are Goldman Sachs, Barclay's, and JP Morgan while I had to REALLY bust my ass to get one non-BB offer.

Neither of us can know this for sure but this may be an example of non-BB juniors fantasizing of "greener pastures"

Half of the individuals I work with came from BB banks (either as associates with experiences or analyst that were invited with the promise of a big pay) and many of them feel that our boutique does a better job because

1) We care more about our companies and the research we produce
2) Typically have a longer term view
3) Typically have better relationship with management due to longer relations and, on a relative basis, high turnover that the big banks
4) Less of a slave to the I-Bankers
5) We cover less companies so the quality per note is higher

So I find it more than a little interesting to hear non-BBers complain about lack of access to resources while former-BBers rave about the higher quality of work done.

I do believe that a non-BB analyst can give you more attention than a BB analyst, especially if he is traveling 3-4 days a week chasing banking deals. Then it becomes a question of what is more valuable, a prestigious brand or being on an accelerated learning curve. I wish I had the answer to that one.

So, on a personal note. I wish I spoke with the buyside more often and had access to the top funds. HOWEVER, even if I did it would be unlikely that I would call them or that it would be worth while for them to speak to speak with me, especially if my analyst had not spent HOURS per week teaching me. I say this with confidence because I doubt junior guy (regardless of the bank he works with) knows more about about any given company and how the company's stock trades than any buysider who is considering purchasing the stock.

Dank Nugs:
KarateBoy:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/for-er-how-m...
Disagree completely. While the best analysts aren't necessarily at BBs, a junior person/associate is far better off at a big name firm. You're guaranteed to be paid at least on par with people of equivalent experience and you'll have better resources, better access to mgmt, etc. When dealing with exit ops or a career change, you'll get the benefit of the doubt of your firm's brand. It's much more common to see an analyst who was an associate at a BB vs a boutique/MM because that person's resume carries more weight. Not right, just the way it is.

I work at a boutique and I'm starting to see some of the differences (notably pay, resources, sales support). While I really like my analyst, I'd probably push harder for a BB if I could do it again. It's hard to say which firm is best but from what I've seen/heard, Barclays (ex Lehman), MS, and BofaML have stellar reputations.

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_

2/17/11

I like Bernstein research. Stifel is pretty good at times. All BBs research suck. Most boutiques are terrible too(e.g. D.A. Davidson or some sht)

In reply to bunkerbanker
2/17/11

bunkerbanker:
I like Bernstein research. Stifel is pretty good at times. All BBs research suck. Most boutiques are terrible too(e.g. D.A. Davidson or some sht)

Yeah all BBs suck. Barclay's product is the best, mostly b/c of the Lehman inheritance but still. Also every boutique does not suck, Argus and Janney both have great analysts in certain spaces. D.A is not a bad product also, I highly doubt you work on the buyside so this is probably a waste.

In reply to bunkerbanker
2/17/11

Janney is not bad I agree.

I mean in general, boutiques aren't much better.. like a Longbow or Suntrust. Obviously there are a few that are good (Blair and Gleacher come to mind)

2/17/11

Baird has at least a few good analysts too. I'm familiar with their transportation and industrial guy.

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_

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2/18/11
2/18/11

Even if "Baird" or "Gleacher" are great, wouldn't it make more sense to work for Goldman -even if their research is shit- in order to keep your exit opportunities more open?

2/18/11

Why would a HF want to hire someone who writes poor research? How will you add value to the firm?

IMO, hiring people with the words "Goldman" on their CV doesn't generate as much alpha as hiring people who know their stuff.

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_

2/18/11

Good posts, I learned a lot. Can someone clarify sell-side/buy-side to a newbie? One side promotes/sells and the other advises on investments? that about right?

2/19/11

Interesting posts. I was wondering whether ER was "easier" to get in to than IB? What sort of people are they looking for?

2/21/11

BBs are the best place for equity research, at least until you are a star analyst... then it doesn't matter where you work.

At the beggining, BBs have a established training structure. Many BBs put their graduates in full classroom training from July (when the programme starts) to December (when they make them take CFA1), and this is something that boutiques cannot afford to match.

From then on, resources are always superior at BBs. Corporate access, specialized sales people, execution... Salaries are higher too.

2/19/11

Walkerr, thats a tough question to answer. I think it ends up being just as hard as
1) IBD's pedigree of candidates are higher
2) ER needs less grunts, so grad opportunities are often less. The value of your major is also lessened as ER tend to appreciate varied backgrounds alot more ie if you were a straight business major and you came up against a kid with a resource engineer + finance background.. (assuming the group was related to commodities etc)

2/19/11

Thanks for the response Wannabe. My goal is to be a portfolio manager some day, hedge fund or mutual fund. Do a lot of people make the switch to HF or MF? I guess it depends on how good you are, which is defined by how well you score with your analysis?

2/21/11

Is that really true about how prime brokers of the companies get their results the night before?

I always just thought the associates damn near killed themselves to get the note out so quickly.

Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules.

In reply to Walkerr
2/23/11

You can always start in buyside research, which is obviously the biggest pipeline to the portfolio management track, at least at mutual funds/traditional AMs.

Walkerr:
Thanks for the response Wannabe. My goal is to be a portfolio manager some day, hedge fund or mutual fund. Do a lot of people make the switch to HF or MF? I guess it depends on how good you are, which is defined by how well you score with your analysis?
In reply to roar19
2/23/11

I never heard of this. Sounds like unfair/unequal dissemination of material information.

roar19:
Is that really true about how prime brokers of the companies get their results the night before?

I always just thought the associates damn near killed themselves to get the note out so quickly.

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_

2/23/11

Agreed. Doesn't happen.

In reply to KarateBoy
3/12/11

KarateBoy:
I never heard of this. Sounds like unfair/unequal dissemination of material information.

roar19:
Is that really true about how prime brokers of the companies get their results the night before?

I always just thought the associates damn near killed themselves to get the note out so quickly.

This absolutely DOES happen. Certain companies do this every single quarter, although they are definitely in the minority. I work at a BB. It is called 'embargo' data, and occasionally a firm will release results to a select group the evening prior to the press release. Each Analyst has to agree to the terms of the embargo - which strictly forbids any discussion of results until they are offered to the general public. The senior IR person or CFO will then (usually) personally call each Analyst who received the embargo data to chat - the IR guy is trying to determine what kinds of questions the Analysts will ask on the earnings call in order to better prepare the CEO. I cover 15 companies and one of my companies does this. The company is a small-cap conglomerate that owns a wide range of businesses.

Usually the Associate works like crazy to update the model and publish a First Read, usually within 30-45 minutes of the numbers hitting the wire. This gives you roughly 2-3 minutes to print, 5 minutes to scan / read the PR, 10 minutes to update your model (better hope nothing crazy happened during the quarter!), 10 minutes to write the note, and 5-10 minutes to push it out the door through the publishing / compliance / editing process. And if anything goes wrong, you are going to be screwed during the Earnings Conference Call, which typically begins ~30-60 minutes following the issuance of the press release. IMO it is the most intense part of the job, especially if a major company has lots of obscure one-time events, which always become tricky with the model.

By rule, BB is definitely better than boutiques when you are just starting out. I fully agree with Dank Nugs (hilarious name btw). Pay will be better. Resources will be deeper. If an II ranked Analyst is working at a small shop, he likely has a huge pay package that keeps him there.

BB banks will have an equity sales department, which acts as a megaphone for your Analysts' "calls". When my Analyst says "Buy X", he has a huge sales force echoing his call to every PM on the Street. When a small cap Analyst says "Buy X", he has to rely on his own rolodex. The trading floor at my BB will generate significant trades from the "Buy X" call, and thus my Analyst gets his huge bonus at the end of the year.

The sales dept will also put the Associates in front of all the big hedge funds literally all day long. When the sales dept recommends the "Buy GM" call to the buyside Analyst, the buyside Analyst or PM will often want to speak directly to the sell side Analyst who made the "Buy GM" call. Often the Analyst is too busy, so the work falls on the Associate's plate.

All things being equal, working for an II ranked Analyst is better than not. And all things being equal, working for a BB vs. a boutique in ER is definitely better IMO.

I cover two sectors. The #1 guy for the first sector is at a BB. The #1 guy for the second sector is at a boutique (it's a much smaller sector).

3/12/11

on the buy-side you wanna work for asset management firms and not BB's! above street pay, great hours, better training, huge networks into HF's other investment management firms as you are already on the buy-side

In reply to lifesgreatmystery
3/12/11

lifesgreatmystery:
on the buy-side you wanna work for asset management firms and not BB's! above street pay, great hours, better training, huge networks into HF's other investment management firms as you are already on the buy-side

What are the best buy-sides in Mid-Atlantic and New England area. Firms like MFS?

3/13/11

in the new england area, off the top of my head (you can prob. find better lists in the asset management firm)... the top "traditional" asset management firms are T. Rowe, MFS, Wellington, Fidelity

In reply to jdog112
3/14/11

jbert112:
lifesgreatmystery:
on the buy-side you wanna work for asset management firms and not BB's! above street pay, great hours, better training, huge networks into HF's other investment management firms as you are already on the buy-side

What are the best buy-sides in Mid-Atlantic and New England area. Firms like MFS?

No offense but the fact you have to ask this question, especially regarding those regions, leads me to believe you have little or no chance getting a job in AM. How can you not know about the biggest firms? Fido, Wellington, T Rowe Price, Legg Mason?

In reply to lifesgreatmystery
3/14/11

lifesgreatmystery:
in the new england area, off the top of my head (you can prob. find better lists in the asset management firm)... the top "traditional" asset management firms are T. Rowe, MFS, Wellington, Fidelity

I am so sick of you spewing wrong information about asset management all over the board. You just regurgitate what other people say (no matter right or wrong) and pretend that you know shit, while you are probably just another AM hopeful who's still in school. It's funny to see how people who are not even in the industry comment on issue about comps, work, career path, top firms and shit like that.

T Rowe is not even in new england. T Rowe is in baltimore.

To the other poster, good firms in the mid-atlantic are T Rowe and Legg.. In the New England area you have your usual names.

In reply to What-to-do-What-to-do
3/14/11

What-to-do-What-to-do:
lifesgreatmystery:
in the new england area, off the top of my head (you can prob. find better lists in the asset management firm)... the top "traditional" asset management firms are T. Rowe, MFS, Wellington, Fidelity

I am so sick of you spewing wrong information about asset management all over the board. You just regurgitate what other people say (no matter right or wrong) and pretend that you know shit, while you are probably just another AM hopeful who's still in school. It's funny to see how people who are not even in the industry comment on issue about comps, work, career path, top firms and shit like that.

T Rowe is not even in new england. T Rowe is in baltimore.

To the other poster, good firms in the mid-atlantic are T Rowe and Legg.. In the New England area you have your usual names.

Balty actually has a good presence, DB Asset MGMT has a sizable outfit there from the Alex Brown BT days... Also Boston Company, Harvard MGMT, and Blackrock are other large outfits in Boston.

3/14/11

what-to-do, i work in AM. i don't "regurgitate" what people say, those were just the firms i remembered off the top of my head.

sorry i forgot that t. rowe wasn't in england. i know colleagues that work at everyone of those firms other than wellington. i just remembered the few firms that came off the top of my head. sorry that upset you so much that you had to go on a major rant.

if the person who asked would like a complete list, i suggest searching AM threads or doing some reseach. but the firms i know about HQ'd in New England proper are are fidelity, MFS, wellington, blackrock, franklin templeton (used to be HQ'd in NY but still has offices there - and a rotational program in NYC for ugrads), eaton vance, State Street (Ssga), Putnam (hit hard by the recession - had to liquidate some of its funds, a friend there was laid off),

and obviously BB AM arms though those are mostly FoF with, with only very senior analysts in investment analysis roles.

In reply to lifesgreatmystery
3/14/11

lifesgreatmystery:
what-to-do, i work in AM. i don't "regurgitate" what people say, those were just the firms i remembered off the top of my head.

sorry i forgot that t. rowe wasn't in england. i know colleagues that work at everyone of those firms other than wellington. i just remembered the few firms that came off the top of my head. sorry that upset you so much that you had to go on a major rant.

if the person who asked would like a complete list, i suggest searching AM threads or doing some reseach. but the firms i know about HQ'd in New England proper are are fidelity, MFS, wellington, blackrock, franklin templeton (used to be HQ'd in NY but still has offices there - and a rotational program in NYC for ugrads), eaton vance, State Street (Ssga), Putnam (hit hard by the recession - had to liquidate some of its funds, a friend there was laid off),

and obviously BB AM arms though those are mostly FoF with, with only very senior analysts in investment analysis roles.

You're wrong again, Blackrock is headquartered in NYC albeit they have a sizable shop in Boston. Their presence in Boston is a lot of the State Street spillover, like the Seattle office is the Qualos spillover, the Princeton office is Merrill spillover, and the SF office is BGI spillover....

In reply to lifesgreatmystery
3/14/11

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3/14/11

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