I'm going into my fourth year at a complete non-target undergrad, have a Big 4 internship in a major metro locked in, but ultimately don't intend to stay in audit very long, 2-3 years most likely. Goals from there would be either go to F500 and try to climb the ladder, or start gaining experience at a smaller firm with the intention of opening my own shop. Also would like the option to break into something more strategy based at an F500, which is why I'm considering an MBA in the future, for sort of a rebranding.
I am starting to study for the GMAT, as I am going to do a Master's in Accounting to give myself the 150 credits needed for the CPA. Basically, because my internship is locked in and I'm planning on staying at my current school, I don't need a very strong gmat score. I can basically dog it and be admitted just fine. However, as I said, I would like to consider a top MBA program in the future, but I'm wondering if Big 4 audit gives me any shot at all. Basically, I'm asking is Big 4 audit, 3.8-3.9 GPA at a complete non target, and a great GMAT score enough to get strong consideration at top programs? I understand the gmat scores expire in 5 years, so assuming I take it around September, two more years of schooling and two and a half years of Big 4 audit would give me just enough time to apply before the scores expire. I'm just wondering if I should even waste my time studying hard for the GMAT just in case I consider it in the future, or if I realistically don't have a good chance and should just focus my efforts on early CPA studying.
Thanks
This is what I would do in your shoes:
Pass on the GMAT for now, get WSO/BIWS prep and do that this summer. After which do your research and figure out when you need to start the CPA exam process. Your senior year, you will take your audit course at thesame time just do Becker(Audit). You will have a three/four weeks between the end of senior year and your internship(Do FAR/REG) do BEC during your internship, do REG once school starts. Then start applying for whatever job you want. Also the WSO/BIWS prep on your resume will give you a leg up should you decide to apply for non BIG-4 jobs during your senior year.
Anyway that is what I did.
Also consider doing a double major instead of a MAcc, or considering going to a better school for your MAcc/MFin.
You are thinking too far ahead
Spend as much time as you can studying for the GMAT. You absolutely have a shot at a top MBA from Big 4 audit - you'll basically be competing against other Big 4 auditors for the spots those schools give to that group. I'm afraid I can't comment on exact figures, but I know enough cases to say that it is definitely not out of reach. You'll just need to make sure you have some other things on your resume, like being on the board of directors of some nonprofit.
Even if you don't end up getting accepted (or wanting to go) to a top school, GMAT still matters for top 25, or top 50, or as a boost to your resume for the next job opportunity. Bottom line, a high GMAT score gives you options, and options are never bad. It's a waste of time and money to take the GMAT and not do your best - take it from someone who made that mistake and regrets it.
Why not move from Audit to TAS?
While that might provide some more relevant experience for an investment banking position, it typically takes at least two years to make the transfer, since most first years don't have the opportunity to get a top rating. At that point, you're ready to apply to B-school already. Plus, I would think that moving to TAS puts you in the investment banker bucket for admissions purposes, which might hurt your chances.
If your goal is ultimately investment banking, TAS is a good backup plan for if you don't make it into a top B-school. In the OP's case, I don't think it aligns with his goals.
I see no reason to apply to B-School after 2 years of work experience, particularly coming out of a Big 4. You need to differentiate and audit or tax is not doing it.
TAS at least allows you to gain transaction exposure and evaluate deals in the hundreds of $millions. No question it would help his IB or PE chances, but purely from a strategic perspective, it gives him skills that will be useful in applying to B-School and more importantly, to strategy-oriented positions post-MBA.
I'm simply suggesting 2 audit + 2 TAS rather than 2-3 audit.
Although TAS is only Audit on steroids. OP would have the ability to see more businesses in a fast-paced environment and look at more aspects of a business. Audit won't get interesting for him until after he will have applied to b school. TAS will afford a change of pace, much more respect on his resume for b-school recruiting, and Hilton points.
thanks for the input. I should clarify that I have absolutely no interest in IB. Besides the typical F500 FP&A/trying to climb into upper management and starting my own practice, the only other thing I've really strongly considered is a strategy/development type of role, but this is where I'd assume I'd need a pretty good MBA to break in.
Thanks 808. Does GMAT really help as a resume padder? Even if I was just looking to get into FP&A at a F500, do they really look at that kinda thing? If so, that is certainly extra incentive. It's not really in me to dog it at something, but I'm just trying to weigh if my time is better spent not going too hard with it and spending that extra time on early CPA prep.
Thanks for the reply. Kinda conflicts with 808, and I know you are both pretty knowlegeable people as I've seen from past posts. Your timeline you listed for the CPA exam is kinda what I'm hoping to do. I wanna try to knock out a section or two next summer, and then the following two during the year of my master's. This is one of the reasons I'm asking about whether there is a good reason for me to kill the GMAT because I figured I could do a slow and steady CPA reviewing before I hit that 120 hr mark next spring.
I think I'm pretty set on the MAcc because I'm really not close enough to 150 for a double major to work. And I plan to stay at my school because it's pretty cheap, about $11,000 for 30 hrs. I'm almost certain I'm doing Big 4 audit first so I don't think it would make sense to pay for an expensive program.
Thinking too far ahead is definitely an issue I have haha.
Can't you do the GMAT first? I would think you want to wait to take the CPA until you get your fulltime offer and several thousand dollars' worth of prep materials. In the meantime, take the GMAT. I'm definitely not saying the GMAT is more important than the CPA - I'm just saying that if you are going to take the GMAT, don't waste the time and money to get a half-baked score if you can help it.
That is a good point. I kinda figured you can front the cash and then they reimburse you after a full time offer. the question still remains whether I can come up with that kinda cash though. But you are right, I think I will get some studying in and then take the GMAT some time towards the beginning of fall (don't know how long I'll be studing as I've yet to take any type of diagnostic). After that though, I may have to rely on "cheap" CPA exam resources before I get my FT offer, as I'd really like to knock a section out before my internship, but I don't know if its realistic to do that without a heavy duty prep course.
Just wanted to comment on this -- the firms will not reimburse you after a full time offer!! You must wait and order through them after receiving the FT offer to get reimbursed. Common misconception.
You say you want to open your own accounting shop? You want to open your own audit shop? And do what - audit extremely small operations? I think that once you get a taste of audit in your mouth (esp if you work on small private clients) you will have different thoughts about opening your own 'audit' shop.
Most people that leave Big 4 / accounting and open their own shops do so on the tax side - it is possibile to be very successful on the tax side and a I know a couple of people (parents friends) who have been extremely successful in opening tax practices that focus on wealthy ppl.
Big4 (cpa)---> Top10 MBA? (Originally Posted: 12/25/2007)
Will big4 accounting work experience be good enough for admission to top mba programs? Assuming my stats are good, 3.7+ gpa, 700+ GMAT.
That is exactly what I meant. Accounting & Tax services. Not audit. I know a couple people in that spot too. One did Big 4 audit for a couple years and now runs a pretty successful tax/accounting practice.
Just echoing others: it is possible if you can show up some flavour: interesting EC, top performer or something like that. The problem is that it is fairly easy to get into audit, so the "filter effect" is not that effective. But again, a good story can make wonders. Focus on essay: why MBA, why now , why school X? Shoot at schools like Duke, UNC, Cornell too.
I'm also pretty interested in this answer. I'm an Accounting major but am leaning towards banking (simply because I don't know how interesting a career in auditing would be).
Any additional input would be greatly appreciated.
What do you want to do in your career? If it's not accounting or audit, I would consider skipping the CPA altogether and even skipping the Big 4 opportunity.
I'm heading to a top 10 B School and used to work in audit... it's a problem on your resume. I was able to move into Strategy Consulting and get through the CFA program, two things that helped me augment my sordid audit history.
Regardless of your career plans, I would avoid audit, even at Big 4, if top tier MBA is important to you. You want to show that you are dynamic, confident, and risk-taking. A big 4 audit job makes you look dull, risk-averse, and complacent.
Also... i suspect if you are ambitious enough to already be talking about taking the GMAT you will likely hate working with the dense people you'll find in Big 4 audit. Unless you are a die hard audit freak, my advice is find an alternate career out of school. Forget about your Big 4 offer and find something more interesting. Show some passion and lock something down. You can do it.
accounting/big4/cpa ---> MBA? (Originally Posted: 02/24/2008)
is accounting work experience good enough for top15 MBA programs? assuming i have a good gpa and gmat score?
Anything is good enough. Seriously there are the IB/MC people, but there are non profit people, teachers, professional athletes etc. It's about what you make of your experience.
yeah i'd agree w/ skaballet...keep in mind, however, that only 2% or so of a freshman class at a top 15 school consists of those with accounting work experience only...that could mean not a lot apply, or not a lot get in..
Yeah, it is. In my opinion, there are not a lot of big 4 applicants to top MBA programs because anyone with a bachelor's degree in accounting in a big 4 firm can work his/her way up and become partner if they perform well and can bring in clients. In other words, an MBA is not as highly valued and definitely not required at a big 4 firm, while a master's in accounting/tax might be more suitable.
Assuming one gets in a top MBA program from accounting, can they switch out into IB etc?
of course
Accountants are typically looked at as lacking in soft skills/leadership skills, and therefore they rarely make it into the MBA business schools ">M7 schools unless they have shown a significant amount of leadership outside of work. It is also very difficult to stand out at a Big 4 firm due to the rigid heirarchy. You should have a good shot at schools ranked 10-15 like Duke, UVA, and Yale though.
how many years of experience do you think you need in big 4?
I am in FP&A at FT500 and I would suggest trying to make it to internal audit rather than just FP&A role. It will open any door once you are there at the FT Co.
Big 4 Tax ---> Top MBA? (Originally Posted: 04/23/2010)
I am graduating soon and am set to begin my career as a tax man for one of the Big 4. I will be working in the firm's San Francisco office and within the Asset Management group, meaning all of my clients will be in financial services (primarily private equity and hedge fund stuff).
I will be frank in saying that I am not incredibly interested in accounting and I chose this route because it was my best option given the state of the economy. My goal is to go to business school within the next five years and switch into a more appealing line of work.
I searched the boards and found quite a few posts referring to what an auditor at the Big 4 could do to make themselves enticing to bschools, but nothing about tax professionals. For the auditors, it was recommended that, after a couple of years, they should either switch service lines into something like m&a advisory or leave the firm entirely if they're able to snag an outside research or consulting job.
My question is, does the above hold true for those in tax? Is it just as possible for someone in tax to switch service lines as it is someone in audit? What service lines should a tax professional with a focus on financial services be looking at? On the other hand, if I were to choose to leave the firm after a couple of years... what exit opportunities would I be eligible for and which of them would be the most appealing to bschools?
To give you a more complete picture of my profile: I attended a top public for undergrad (Political Science major) and graduated with a 3.3. I couldn't get any job in the middle of the recession with that degree, so I decided to pursue my MS in Taxation at a relatively unknown public school. The program is short, so I'm almost finished and my graduate GPA will end up being about a 3.7. I had to take the GMAT to be accepted into the program, and I scored a 760. I've been an active volunteer throughout college, and I plan to use my Big 4's resources to be as engaged in the community as I can.
To make my path seem more coherent and logical: as an undergrad, I was a research assistant for a (poli sci/econ) professor whose work focused on the construction of infrastructure in developing Asia. From there, I grew an interest in project finance, finance in general, and an interest in the developing world. I feel these interests can best be served by a graduate business education, and (from my viewpoint as a recent poli sci grad) getting into Big 4 seemed to be the quickest and most cost-effective way of positioning myself for acceptance into bschool, while also giving me a stable and relatively lucrative career to fall back on. I know Big 4 isn't highly regarded by adcoms, but it was the best I could do in my position.
So, my most general question is: given my circumstances and background, what would you do over the next 3-5 years to make yourself as appealing as possible to bschools? On a final note, I would obviously love get a top 10 MBA... but I would also be more than satisfied with going to a Duke or even a UNC, especially if I were offered a bundle of cash. Even if I were to stay vanilla tax, what would my chances at these schools look like? Thank you in advance.
Former Big 4 turned IB here. I did a rotation in tax during audit's slow season and found that much of tax isn't transferable to other practices. We've had tax people do the opposite, either transferring or doing rotations in other groups, but they usually had to start from the bottom despite years on the job.
Silver lining is that one of my colleagues was able to switch over to our M&A tax group (I think he did this after maybe 2 years in fed tax), which while still tax focused, allowed him to see transactions occurring. I don't know too much else about the group since I'm not a tax guy, but it could provide an exit opp into the M&A group for a large corp prior to b-school. You could then weave this into a story for b-school adcoms while showing work experience a bit more exciting than what I did (few years of straight audit).
You say you want to switch over to a more appealing line of work but you don't state what. Also, while tax is technically accounting, you're hardly ever in the debits and credits so whose to say that you won't enjoy it. If you're feeling entrepreneurial, tax is an easy way to start your own practice.
It's definitely possible. One former auditor who worked at my Big4 left after 3 years to enroll at a M7 full-time MBA program. I think his case is rare though. He went to a top-50 undergrad (non-target) but he graduated summa cum laude, was the president of his university's undergrad accounting society, and is a minority. Don't know his GMAT score but given the summa cum laude status, I think it's safe to assume he got a high GMAT score. He is currently interning at a BB as an IBD summer associate.
I know another ex-auditor in my office who left after 4 years to enroll at a top-15 full-time MBA program. Not quite as impressive as the M7 guy but still good.
CPA at Big 4 to Top MBA Program? (Originally Posted: 12/03/2011)
If I became a CPA and worked at a big 4 for 2-3 years, would I have a good chance of being accepted into a top MBA? I'm asking this in case I'm not able to get into IB right out of undergraduate school and go the accounting route instead. Is this path common at all? Also, if someone was to take this path, what jobs would they be looking to accept after getting their MBA?
Pretty sure most people on this board will say that you'll first have to internally transfer to TSS group or put in more years to make Manager. Either way it's not going to be easy
You could get into a top 20 MBA program on that route. But top 5-10 will be tough.
Its not common because many people who go to big four come out with a masters in accy and get a CPA and that ends up being the extent of their schooling. Many top MBAs don't really have too many auditors applying to their programs and in my opinion that is a good thing.
DreamMonkey: maybe the manager argument has some weight, but don't think you know what your talking about relating to TSS. There's plenty of other ways to differentiate yourself, and that is what ultimately matters.
My advice: if you go big four, get your cpa and see what you think. 2-3 yrs is a little light in experience however. financial rotation programs at the right f500 company isn't a bad idea either.
Possible, but making manager (for the title/responsibility) and taking advantage of the rotational/international opportunities is a big help.
Hi g-baby1,
It is possible to pursue a CPA and then a top MBA program. Here is a case study of a Big 4 public accounting employee who did just that:
Regarding work after business school, there would be many opportunities (consulting, finance, etc.).
Best,
Conrad and the Stacy Blackman Team
I'm thinking about going this route, not sure if the cost of a good MPA program is worth it or not, though.
If this is your plan and you are still in undergrad I would strongly reccomend you get 150 hours while in undergrad and go straight into big 4 w/o masters degree. This will allow you to reach a more senior level at a younger age and the fact that you already have a masters degree will not be any type of drag on your MBA application (some think it may be).
The only reason not to do this would be if your GPA in undergrad was weak. This is the situtation I found myself in and I felt it would be better to get my MPA for the sole purpose of having a high GPA to show improvement (3.9 vs. 3.3 undergrad) though I also needed more hours for 150.
Big 4 --> Top MBA - Is it possible? (Originally Posted: 05/27/2013)
Hey guys,
I was curious as to how hard it would be to transition from a traditional Big 4 Auditing job to a top MBA program like Sloan, Wharton, or even as elite as Stanford or Harvard.
I have read around the previous threads but its hard to sense if many of the users are mad joking regarding the feedback or if they are serious.
As far as getting into a top MBA how much work experience would be needed to apply. Also how to MBA adcoms view Big 4 jobs? Also, I know it may not be in the echelon of IB and Consulting but is it viewed good according to them or are the traditional big 4 people (tax and auditing) looked down upon/not 'prestigious' enough for these top MBA programs?
Any feedback/advice would be appreciated!
Very hard to impossible
I don't know about HSW but Booth does take a lot of Big 4 employees. Whether they are in audit specifically I don't know.
http://poetsandquants.com/2011/10/11/top-feeder-companies-to-chicago-bo…
I know one guy from PwC audit who went to HBS and is graduating this year. He was pretty much #1 at everything he did: graduated #1 in his class (with honors), was ranked #1 among his peers during this three years with PwC, and scored in the top ~5% of all CPA test takers. I know another guy who worked in NYC for PwC audit for 7 years and then went to Booth MBA and is now an associate in GS IBD. I'm guessing both of them had top-notch GMAT, essays, and recommendations as well. It's definitely possible, but the probability (statistically speaking) is very, very low.
Lol, what a way to go ''forward''. Mind-blown. 9 years to make Associate at GS...
I personally know several ex-Big 4 guys that went to Booth
Why would HBS want folks who’ve been knee-deep in financial statements when they could take wide-eyed TFAs teaching 3rd grade math in the ghetto? (any sarcasm is intended)
Not like knowing business is important to get into business school anyways...
I know a big 4 advisory person who just graduated from CBS. I think it would be tough if you have an accounting undergrad . Accounting is very mechanical as is big 4 audit ... It looks boring to admissions. Also know a partner with a Wharton MBA. A lot of admissions ppl are ivy liberal arts ppl, accounting is seen as a trade rather than an academic pursuit
Speaking from experience, Big 4 --> Top MBA is definitely possible.
The issue is that most Big 4 students (and there are quite a few at top MBAs) did either Transaction Services or M&A at PwC. Those that did Audit/Tax (very very few) had to be absolutely fantastic at it and have amazing stats. If you aren't in TS I would strongly advise trying to transfer.
Having said that. Most of those that came from Big 4 TS and M&A/valuation landed top-notch jobs. Of 7 that I know well 3 went to MBB and 4 went to top IBD. There is a Big 4 Stigma, but after you get into a top MBA my view is that it pretty much disappears, and recruiters (maybe not your classmates) definitely look past the stigma and recognize your experience with nitty gritty numbers as a massive plus point. Also, the technical part of ibd interviews are a breeze if you did TS and have an accounting qualification.
Very possible. Harvard, Wharton, Stanford will be difficult but still completely possible. Booth/Sloan/Kellogg well within reach if everything else stacks up.
I am currently working in a Big 4 company in Europe. A Partner here (restructuring group) got into Chicago while he was doing audit and another guy got into IE (Spain). A colleague in the M&A group got into INSEAD and then moved to London (IBD in a top tier BB).
Big 4 consulting to H/S/W? Yes. Much harder than coming from M/B/B, but there's still a handful that they're not uncommon. Most of them tend to be Ivy/equivalent, plus stellar stats, strong leadership outside of work (and some were NCAA/Olympic athletes in college). At the other top 8, you'll find more Big 4 consultants with solid profiles (solid stats, decent extracurriculars).
As for Big 4 audit at H/S/W - more rare than Big 4 consulting, but not unheard of. It usually comes down to stellar stats + exceptional leadership outside of work (i.e. leadership accomplishments that tie in with their personal story). And yes, they love athletes who participated at a competitive/high level.
That's the key with b-school admissions: they prefer accomplished jocks over hard working nerds (not just literally, but in terms of sensibility/personality type).
Question for experts: Is it possible to go from audit to a T15 but not m7 school? For example, I'm looking at places like UVA, Yale, Cornell, UCLA, etc. and maybe up to the Haas/Tuck category.
Are these schools fairly doable from Big 4 (moreso than HSW/M7) or is audit just a bad background for any reasonably ranked MBA program?
Absolutely, so long as you have solid stats (GPA and GMAT that are in range - if they are exceptional, that's a bonus).
Definitely can make T15 with audit from a Big 4. Just try and get good performance ratings, good career progression etc plus a good GMAT and it should be very doable.
You'll probably have to work up to the Manager level at a minimum though (5-7 yrs, sometime more)
In my experience/observation, as I went to a top-tier MBA program, I would echo the other posts (and even the general sentiment of the board) that Big 4 accounting is perceived as pretty rote/mechanical and therefore stigmatized in terms of admissions. I would also add that in traditional accounting you are on the CPA path and thereby the skill-sets you’ve been building are geared toward that result; this can make it much harder to convince the adcom to admit you as accountants don’t have a NEED for an MBA. As such, you would have to position your application as a pretty intensive career switcher (a much harder thing to do).
However, I would add there are two exceptions that I’ve seen:
1) International Students (Developing Markets) – Many emerging geographies don’t have developed capital markets and mature industries/sectors thereby making investment banking and management consulting positions, two of the more preferred applicant profiles, relatively non-existent (though this is changing). In these cases Big-4 audit/tax is actually quite a prestigious and high-profile role. As a matter of fact, I know some ex-Big4 accountants who now work for pretty high-caliber PE firms in these markets. MBA adcoms obviously would look favorably upon such profiles.
2) Personal Background – MBA admissions are actually pretty democratic and meritocratic (at least compared to a lot of other things in life). Committees understand that not everyone gets the opportunity to work for a bulge-bracket bank or MBB. For example, maybe you’re a first generation immigrant where English isn't your first language, the first person in your family to go to college and you went to a state school where prestigious firms didn’t really recruit so you went Big4. If you’ve gone on to do great things relative to your circumstances, then adcoms aren’t going to hold that against you. You may even be looked upon more favorably than ex-bankers and consultants if you’ve overcome serious hurdles (e.g. worked two jobs in college, etc.) despite the fact your career profile may not look very prestigious.
To add to the comment about reaching manager level:
For a top 10 school you will probably need to be at manager level (although I have encountered senior associate/consultant levels, but very few), but you will have to have reached manager in much less than 5-7 years. I would say 4-5 years tops (even though normal route is around 6).
If it took you 6-7 years to make manager at a Big 4 you will really struggle to get into a top school.
For a Top 15 I don't think you'd need to have reached manager yet. Senior Associate/Consultant after 2-3 years with top performance ratings and good stats should get you through the door.
Crazy how MBB guys get in after 2 years at a junior level and Big 4 guys need to be managers. I mean if you're a fast track manager, by the time you finish the MBA you would have been close to a senior manager promotion, and after 3-4 years would have had a shot a partner (if you keep the pace).
I've seen it happen. At least for audit guys from asia. Of course working for Deloitte Consulting can heavily increase your chances.
~4 years should be a good start. The work experience is just one part of your application. Working for Big 4 certainly wouldn't put you at a disadvantage, lots of professionals started their careers there. It will be more difficult to explain why you stayed there for so long and why you did not do something else before applying to bschool. If you can get that hashed out, it will help your chances (ties in to the holistic approach mentioned above).
So if it the general feeling of people on this board that doing the Big 4 thing for 1-2 years and then doing something else is a good thing as far as b-school apps are concearned?
I actually worked in Big 4 (major market) for 18 months and had done a 'rotation' into the M&A group and was slated to go back after busy season but found a more interesting position so I jumped on it (I was entering the M&A group very early - usually have to make senior - and I was afraid of being pulled backin audit).
I now work in the finance group (bus. development, strategy, investor relations) of a well respected company. Do you think the fact that I jumped ship from Big 4 before really working in that M&A group will take away from the fact that I made it in there so early in my career (my rotation was 1.5 months)? I have good stats (700GMAT, great community service, unique story, etc.)
It will be a stretch for Big4ers to target H/S/W, but if you could position yourself well and make the essays work, you have some chances in Booth/Tuck/MIT/CBS. I studied in one of the schools in the second group and saw a bunch of Big4ers made it through.
How does a Big 4 auditor become competitive for MBA admissions? (Originally Posted: 08/07/2013)
With most top MBA programs taking in a fuck ton of bankers and consultants (kudos to you guys), how does a Big 4 auditor make himself stand out? I'm hoping to move into corporate finance (FP&A) at a F500, and hope to make Director/VP/CFO some day. I know the MBA isn't a necessity, but I want it to transition out of the core accounting/audit role and get into a new city, as well as to have a more well respected school on my resume.
I'm coming from a complete non-target state school for undergrad and Macc (~3.4 GPA), and will have finished the CPA exam before year end. Let's assume 4-6 years work experience when I apply. Not gunning for MBA business schools ">M7 schools, but programs like Ross, Darden, Kenan-Flagler, and maybe Foster or Carlson as matches/safeties. What types of ECs are valued by these programs? Any other thoughts/suggestions? Thanks in advance for any help.
I know an auditor who went to HBS but he was literally #1 in everything he did. Valedictorian of his UG business school (flagship state), #1 in his audit class for his office, top test scores, etc. Moral of the story, be the best at everything you do and have a convincing story about why you want an MBA as an auditor.
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