I have the choice between Brown, Cornell, and UVA for undergrad, but for Brown/Cornell I'd have to take around 50k in loans to be able to pay for Cornell, while Brown will be almost double that. Is it worth doing that? Or would it be better to go to McIntire at UVA and save some money?
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Save the money. Go to UVA. It's a fantastic school and you will have every opportunity. Focus on making great grades. You will get what you earn.
UVA McIntire is arguably a stronger target school than Brown / Cornell
If you can go there for much cheaper I would take that option
Agree with this.
any other input would be appreciated!
Pay the extra 50k and go to Brown/Cornell. UVA is a good school but the truth is these other two will offer you better chances of landing an offer. I never understood the concept of saving money when investing in an education; it's probably the most important thing you will buy with your money in your entire life, so why save 50k when that amount will be nothing a few years down the road when you're working in this industry
hmmm that's a good point. So the increased chance from Cornell would be worth the 50k? I heard from other people on the street that Brown isn't as good as Cornell at placing in internships/jobs, but also that it's more competitive at cornell.
I agree with JustADude that 50K in the long run is not a lot for someone who is considering working in high finance, but I disagree that you will have a lot more opportunities at a Brown/Cornell than McIntire at UVA.
No one said that Brown/Cornell offers "a lot more opportunities" than UVA. I'm saying that even if it offers marginally better chances of landing the best offer, 50k is a worthy investment.
Cornell sends more people overall to WS and has a bigger network, but you will probably have an easier time getting into banking from Brown simply because there's less competition.
I would choose Brown over Cornell.. According to linkedin, they send comparable numbers to the BB's, with Brown sending more to GS/MS than Cornell. Not to mention cornell has more than double the number of undergrads, and I'm sure more than double the percentage of people interested in finance as brown (Cornell has AEM, Hotel,Econ,Engineering who all have students trying to get IB, so competition is bound to be insane). Brown is basically a hipster liberal arts school with no grades (that happens to be an ivy) and most people dont even know what IB is, so the competition is minimal. UVA is solid too, but I think it comes down to fit. The choice should be b/w UVA and Brown though. If you're willing to take the 50k loans, don't do it for cornell.
Brown, easy choice
well......things got more complicated I guess. Brown is about 20-25k more per year than cornell so i'd be lookin at possible 90-100k loans.
DON'T take loans if you have the option not to. Plenty of people from UVA place on the street.
First off, congratulations on all of your acceptances. But, to address your question...
Brown is considered a joke in the Ivy League and pretty much in general. Especially if you have to take out 100k in loans to attend the school, immediately cross it off the list. Between Cornell and UVA (assuming McIntire), it's a bit harder to say. While UVA is likely a more enjoyable college experience, Cornell is a markedly better school. Your peers will simply be more intelligent and driven, which can really mold the type of graduate you become. In terms of recruiting, I'd say they're viewed about equally.
You are an idiot if you think that Brown is considered a joke in the ivy league.. Its acceptance rate is almost HALF of cornell and its the most selective ivy after HYPC.. There is literally not a single reason to choose Cornell over brown, but I would like to see your rationale behind your statements. Brown sends MORE people to most BB IBD despite having less than half the undergrad population PLUS significant less interest from the student body. In addition, Cornell is just a super depressing school with grade deflation, so you will be working your ass off just to get a B- after the curve in your freshman calc class of 150 people, right before walking 40 minutes up a giant hill to your dorm in 4 feet of snow. Just not a great time all around. maybe GS/MS IBD will take 8-9 from Cornell a year, but I guarantee they get at least 500-600 resume drops. OP, Honestly dont think Brown is worth 100k loans over UVA. If you're good enough to get into Brown, you will be able to thrive at UVA and place well very well. Plus you will have a great college experience
Hey man, congratulations on finishing up your freshman year at Michigan; seems like you regret turning down your decision to go to Cornell. While I don't normally deign to respond to such flawed responses, I will just to make sure people don't leave with any misconceptions.
Members on this site rightfully complain about misinformed and naive posts by members with no work experience and no sense of reality and your post is Exhibit A. Take this from someone who graduated from HYP, is finishing up his first year of banking and will be going to a MF in a year trying to give back to a community from which I learned a lot. Keep in mind, goblue has posted countless threads that have been desecrated by comments like, "Terrible, terrible post on many levels," (DickFuld). Sample threads include: - //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/deleted-227 - So bad it was deleted - //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-best-undergrad-school-for-ib - Belief that Washington & Lee is the best school for IB
That being said, let's walk through your post step-by-step.
"Its acceptance rate is almost HALF of cornell and its the most selective ivy after HYPC." - Approximately 30,000 students apply to Brown every year and approximately 40,000 students apply to Cornell every year. You have to consider that many aspiring high school graduates choose not to apply to Brown because they understand that it is not the right professional move for a career in business. - Brown's acceptance rate might be 8.7%, but they have one college to which they accept students. Cornell's acceptance rate might be 14.2%, but they have several different schools, some of which that will lower admissions standards. - Your statement is flawed because you're not comparing populations apples to apples.
"There is literally not a single reason to choose Cornell over brown, but I would like to see your rationale behind your statements." - Thanks for the generalization.
"Brown sends MORE people to most BB IBD despite having less than half the undergrad population PLUS significant less interest from the student body." - I'm really not sure where you're getting this information from, but let's use some data. Let's assume LinkedIn is a proper proxy (which it isn't), but without career center data, it is the closest thing we have. - A search for Brown University for education and "Investment Banking" and "Venture Capital & Private Equity" as industries turns up about 931 hits. The same search for Cornell University turns up 2,085 hits. Why "Venture Capital & Private Equity?" I'm assuming you are looking to go to the buyside and it is important to look at career continuity in the search. - But let's say you disagree and only want to consider "Investment Banking." Again, Cornell wins with 1,199 hits and Brown at 465 hits. So, let's assume that ~10% of each student body is interest in investment banking and that Cornell's student body is 2x that of Brown's. It appears that Cornell comes out in front with a slight edge.
"In addition, Cornell is just a super depressing school with grade deflation, so you will be working your ass off just to get a B- after the curve in your freshman calc class of 150 people, right before walking 40 minutes up a giant hill to your dorm in 4 feet of snow." - I'll give you that, but OP has to consider 50k more in loans just to go to Brown. Is 50k+interest worth a slightly better experience for similar professional results? I'd argue no.
"OP, Honestly dont think Brown is worth 100k loans over UVA. If you're good enough to get into Brown, you will be able to thrive at UVA and place well very well. Plus you will have a great college experience" - Thanks for your only sensible contribution to this conversation.
All in all, I'll reemphasize what I've said before. 1. There are too many freshmen pretending like they know what they're talking about on these boards, so please, think about what you say before you say it. 2. OP, Brown should not even be in the decision discussion, especially with 50k in loans. The decision should be between Cornell and UVA (assuming McIntire), and should be based on culture and family ability to pay.
I don't go to Brown actually and can't believe i'm spending time arguing this. The fact is, while Cornell definitely sends people to BB IBD, perhaps even more than Brown on a purely numbers basis (not per capita) , the competition is undeniably MUCH more difficult. Just like you mentioned, Cornell does have a lot of different schools, which just means that theres ALOT more people gunning for banking.. Hotel, Econ, AEM, Engineering, hell even ILR kids all try to get into banking. And who cares if 10 people go to Goldman when you're competing against half your ivy league class for a spot. And this is IN ADDITION to the severe grade DEFLATION at Cornell. You know what the avg gpa at Cornell is? a 3.2/3.3. Average at Brown is like a 3.7, and regardless of what you say, Brown is still a well regarded ivy and i'm sure with a little bit of networking you could get interviews at any BB since most of your class doesn't even know what banking is and has no interest in it. Where do you think the AVERAGE student is better off? While Cornell can place into BBs, the odds that you are one of the TOP students at Cornell out of hundreds/thousands of your classmates is very minimal. While at Brown, you can cruise by with a 3.7, resume drop or network a little, and end up with plenty of interviews.
I'm definitely leaning to McIntyre right now, but just waiting on the financial aid appeal and going to visit Cornell soon.
also good job with the linkedin analysis with completely irrelevant results. Just filter for class of 2015 at both schools and then see. Cornell sent 42 to Goldman last year, but if you dig a little deeper you can see that most of them are in Human Capital Management (HR), Tech, or (GASP) Operations! Brown only sent 12 but every single one is in IBD/AM
If i could get Brown to around Cornell's price, it seems the opportunities are around similar right? I feel Brown's environment/people are much more relaxed and fun than if I went to Cornell.
this is a great problem to have at your age.
UVA: from a cost standpoint, this is just fantastic. McIntire has a great program and it's definitely a target (some might argue it's a semi-target but I really don't believe that). I personally know a handful of people who graduated and are doing very well. If you're smart, you should be able to get the same opportunities here as you would at Brown and Cornell (and you hopefully are smart since you got into these schools). Will have to hustle a bit more since you aren't at an Ivy. But that extra hustle is worth graduating debt free in my opinion. Also, the women there are hotter.
Cornell: second best from a cost standpoint. Opportunities will probably be better since you're at an Ivy, but you'll have debt hanging over your head. Do you want that/are you ready for that? Also, I hear Ithaca sucks. Idk where you're from but if you're not from the Northeast/Midwest you'll probably want to jump off a cliff during the winter. It really does suck. That being said, not everyone has a chance to go to an Ivy League...so it may be worth it for you.
Brown: great school, but simply not worth it given your situation. Why go to Brown when you can go to Cornell for half the price and UVA for free (right?)? What's the value-add in Brown, besides the fact that Providence is a better college town than Ithaca and probably a bit more laid back? You can listen to that BS a few posts above this one and argue that Brown places better in IBD than Cornell or whatever they're bitching about, but at the end of the day if you're smart, you'll get noticed and you'll get a great job.
These 3 schools will give you pretty much the exact same chances of getting into banking and any marginal advantage that Cornell/Brown has over UVA is deminimis. Go to whichever one you think you'd fit in best socially because one, you'll have a better time there and two, you'll have a better shot at banking.
Nearly everyone who gets into IBD from this tier of schools is involved in either a business fraternity or a social fraternity or, more often than not, both. Obviously you need to click well with a large group of people to be a part of such organizations. So go visit all 3 schools and figure out which one you think you'll fit in best at and go with that one. Don't underestimate the importance of socializing in the context of recruiting.
If you want hard numbers, here's what my reliable friend said about Cornell.
GS/BAML/Barclays each take like 10 kids for IBD (30 total), JPM/UBS/Guggenheim/RBC each take like 5 or so (20 total) and the rest of the BBs/MMs each take like 2 or 3 (20 total). Lazard/Moelis/Evercore/PWP each take 2 kids (8 total) pretty consistently every year. So about 80 kids will get banking jobs every year and we can probably round this up to 90 if you account for the couple who work at random boutiques.
Brown actually came back today and offered essentially the same amount as Cornell. I'm glad they did, but i guess it makes choosing all that much harder.
I'd go with Brown. Alternatively, I'd go with UVA if you would like to study Finance/Business as an undergrad. Brown does not have much competition for its IB spots but is still well recruited by GS and all the other top BBs.
I read this thread twice while the shitstorm unfolded.
Seeing your update about the financial aid match from Brown, I'm going to chime in. Go to Brown. UVA is a fantastic school; I almost went there. The academics are top-notch, the weather is great (you experience all four seasons but none too intensely), the campus life is superb (fantastic Greeklife, great basketball, football that's okay), and the recruiting is very solid. Every BB and most of the EBs recruit there. The alumni network is broad and active.
That being said, it isn't an Ivy League school. I faced a choice similar to yours and picked the non-Ivy. My career's unfolded very well, but let me tell you first-hand how many times I realized I was sweating harder trying to get the look I would've gotten easily with an Ivy at the top of my resume. That's not to say an Ivy degree guarantees you anything; you still need to work hard in the classroom, know your shit for recruiting, network effectively and appropriately, and maintain a humble attitude. Given a candidate who's internalized all that and executing on it, however, and the chances of success at a strong non-Ivy target (UVA, Stern, Ross, Berkeley, etc.) are simply lower than at an Ivy.
Michael Spence won the Nobel for his work on the field of signaling. People are dumb. At a cocktail event you can say you went to Dartmouth and people automatically think you're worth listening to. Instead of judging you by your conduct, character, or intellect, people 'thin slice' to make fast judgments about you. Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink" is all about this.
The Ivy League degree will open doors for you for the rest of your life. Right now, you're (rightly) thinking about banking recruiting. Once in banking, it'll quickly turn to buy-side recruiting. Once in the vaunted halls of a private equity or hedge fund, it'll turn to the MBA application cycle. A decade after that and it's about board seats on major nonprofits, political appointments, and the like.
If the cost differential between the two Ivy schools just disappeared, this is now a simpler question of 'pay for school' vs. 'don't pay for school'.
The comments above describing Cornell's depressing physical campus are accurate. Slope Day is a great tradition, but if you care about weather, fun, and shiny college memories, Cornell is not the place to go. The comments about the cutthroat recruiting environment are also true. Every major firm shows up, but the competition across all the various business schools within the university means your odds aren't favorable.
Brown, on the other hand, has a better physical environment, more attractive women, a vastly more easy-going culture (I'm sure you've read about the grading system and academic scheme), and simply put, way less people interested in the corporate world.
That means you get a killer combination: the chance to be a big fish in a highly-regarded small pond. If you only have to pay $50k for that, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
Your total first-year income as a banking analyst is almost guaranteed to be north of $175k for the class of 2020. Assume $25k signing bonus, $85k base, $80k bonus (those are very real numbers from today, so that's almost a bear-case assumption given that Street figures should be higher by then). As long as you live moderately, you could conceivably crush your entire student loan balance in your first year out of school. If you wanted to live less moderately, you could do it so, so easily in your second year.
Think of it like a trade: are you willing to price your future implied earnings at ~$50k in loans that are deferrable for ~2 years after undergrad if you somehow stumble?
If anecdotal data is helpful, I personally know five Brown grads across different classes. Three are GS/MS alumni (placed into Carlyle, TPG, and a large HF I don't want to name for the sake of his anonymity) and another two are currently at similarly elite banking groups (haven't talked to recently enough to know placement).
Hope this is helpful.
While I agree with your analysis on Brown, if you believe these payment figures will continue, you're mistaken. That being said, I'd personally still take Brown. Great school. I know a lot of jaded Cornell grads, and it's very sad how many have come to resent the school.
80k bonus lol
Thanks APAE! Your post has definitely played a large role in my committing to Brown. Sorry to bug everyone with another college question, but If (big if!) I get off the waitlist from Duke, should I take that offer if similar cost? Duke's culture/climate seems much more my style and fun, but i'd like to know if brown's recruiting is signficantly better to warrant the parts of Brown that I don't like.
From what I've read by perusing WSO in the past, Brown's placement on the street is a polarizing topic. One half says Brown is amazing; the other says, not so much. Not much of an in between, and this is coming from a rising sophomore at Brown. I know I didn't answer your question, but keep that in mind when looking at other forums.
I am a rising junior at Harvard and have a few friends at Brown. Here are my 2cents on Brown recruiting: not a ton of kids are interested in finance but the ones that are into it end up doing really well in recruiting. Typically 5-6 kids to classical IB at GS (a couple extra to product groups). 2-4 at MS, 2-4 JPM, 3-5 BAML, around 10 for other BBs, 1-3 for EBs (was told that this summer 1 went to Centerview and 1 to PJT RSSG, 1 to BX M&A a couple years ago, 1 to Lazard around the same time frame). I would recommend to simply connect with your alumni network.
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