12/5/06

I'll be an analyst at what they call a Middle Market bank (nyc) and I just wanted to hear some reasons why BB and MM differ. Obviously I know the bigger banks have more prestige and work on the biggest deals, but in terms of pay scale, what you'll learn and how hard you'll work, is there any difference?

I know I'll be working the same hours as a BB analyst based on what I was told at my interviews and will make roughly the same year-end pay. So what is the benefit of working for a BB? Is it just exit opps and resume boosting? and if its that, is it that big of a boost?

I just figure that getting into the industry is hard enough and which bank you work in really can't matter that much especially on the analyst level.

Comments (145)

12/5/06

bb will for sure get you futher in life, with the exception of a few boutiques: greenhill, evercore, blackstone

Financial Modeling

12/5/06

"bb will for sure get you futher in life"

wow...you know so little its sad

12/5/06

"wow...you know so little its sad"

Ke18, You've described the majority of the posters on this board.

IronBanker, being a middle market bank just means that the bank typically executes smaller deals (anything under $500 Million). There are plenty of reasons why working at a middle market firm will "for sure get you far in life".

Although you're sacrificing "prestige" by not working for a BB, many middle market analysts will tell you they are able to play more meaningful roles on their deal teams.

In terms of pay scale, salary will typically be the same, but bonuses won't be as large in middle market banks as in their BB peers.

Best of luck.

12/5/06

I don't buy the line that at a middle market or boutique the analysts get more "hands on" experience with modeling, client contact, etc. My friend works at Jefferies, gets staffed on doing the Kinkos print jobs, hasn't really done any modeling, and gets home at 6:00 every day. While a great quality of life, he hasn't really learned anything and will have worse exit ops than if he took his BB offer.

12/5/06
Patrick Bateman:

My friend works at Jefferies, gets staffed on doing the Kinkos print jobs, hasn't really done any modeling, and gets home at 6:00 every day.

I'm pretty sure that Jefferies analysts do not go home at 6 in the afternoon. Has your friend only been there for 3 weeks or something?

ironbanker:

I just find it hard to believe exit opps are worse

Well, the reason exit opps are limited is that the PE world is already tiny. It's not like for every single mediocre investment banking shop there is a PE fund waiting to snatch up young laterals.

6/17/16

Lol, maybe me meant 6:00 AM the next day. Jefferies was the only bank I did not pursue after an informal with two totally-tweaked-out-bloodshot-red-eyed-caffeine-and-speed-freaks who literally YELLED at me, "THE CULTURE AT JEFFERIES IS GREAT!"

Best Response
6/17/16
realjackryan:

Lol, maybe me meant 6:00 AM the next day. Jefferies was the only bank I did not pursue after an informal with two totally-tweaked-out-bloodshot-red-eyed-caffeine-and-speed-freaks who literally YELLED at me, "THE CULTURE AT Jefferies IS GREAT!"

There's "downtime" and then there's "digging up 10 year old threads on WSO" downtime.

6/17/16

ROFL didn't notice. Was looking for info on MM bonuses. Hilarious!

12/5/06

Exit ops and "prestige" aside, I would say the biggest difference between boutiques and BBs are resources. BBs have a lot more resources to allow you to concentrate on more important things.

For example, instead of having to 'google' or 'wikipedia' research materials, or hand-hold some high-school drop out at Kinkos on how to not screw up a book, BBs have research departments (outside of ER), dedicated 24/7 print shops, and graphics departments to handle time-consuming mundane work. People at BBs get to concentrate on modeling, talking to investors, making offering materials, and all the other bullshit that recruiters fed. That is what I think the biggest diffference is.

I agree with Bateman on the "hand-on" experience myth. If you look at any CIMs by Harris Williams, William Blair, HLHZ, whoever, you'll notice at least a half a dozen to a dozen deal team members on the inside cover. While GS, Citi, Lehman usually have 3 or 4.

6/17/16

i did 2 years at a mid-tiered BB but in a top industry group and now work in MM PE (to give you a sense of size, i see deals from Baird, blair, BB&T, SunTrust, HL, some smaller ones and some larger ones like JEF).

the main difference i see are the client interaction and exposure to the actual business. There's no way people can truly understand the operations of a multi billion dollar business (from PE perspective), but MM businesses? )$100-500m TEV), you can. analysts at BB will almost NEVER get direct client interaction. I'm not talking about where you can go present your model in a pitch. I mean actually in the trenches with PE associates and VPs.

i dont see why people prefer BB experience over MM except for brand name. bu t if you intend on staying in finance, Baird / blair, etc are all great names to be had on resume.

6/17/16

I don't have BB perspective but I once had lunch with someone very senior at a top BB and his thoughts on this matter centered around deal size. His (almost) exact words were 'If you work on the big deals, you can always go work on the smaller deals later in your career, nobody will question you can handle the smaller deals'. The reasoning being that the largest deals have the most complexities, thus you'll have more skills in your toolkit.

No clue if this is honestly true or how others in the industry see it though.

6/17/16

Appreciate both of your input - I think Whiskey5 offered something a little more in line with what I'm looking for. Was your BB stint an accurate indicator of the type of work you do on the buyside? Do you have any ex-MM colleagues that you've had this talk with? What is their take vs yours?

LBOsontheslopes, I think your source has a great point - but your response fuels my original question. I understand the general respect that comes with orchestrating multibillion dollar deals, but I'm asking what specifically it is about the BB experience that prepares you more for a career in sub $1b investments (i.e. 99.9% of portfolio companies). Your source is absolutely right that people assume you can handle it...I just wonder whether there's anything to back up that assumption.

6/17/16

Having worked at both a MM and a top BB, I can't say I agree with your "HR spiel" at all. My deal sizes at the MM were $250MM - $3Bn, however as the analyst I found my role was almost exclusively processing information. I was never giving a deal or pitchbook any original thought. It was all filtered (heavily) by an associate and ultimately completely rewritten by a VP / Director. End of the day, the only product of mine that made it into any materials was a chart or model output. As far as execution, I was involved with both buy and sell side processes, however it was clear the bank I was working at lacked significant process experience (which was somewhat concerning as an analyst) and made it a bit harder to navigate live deals that weren't capital markets. I found the deal team at the MM to be larger than BB (it was fairly common to see 2 analysts on a live deal).

At the top BB (deal sizes from $200MM - $30Bn), analysts were expected to think on their own and have opinions on a deal or proposed transaction. Analyst work consistently made it into the final materials and it was usually better put together than that of the MM. Deal teams were as lean (if not leaner) than at the MM. Analysts had more autonomy and I found skill sets developed a lot quicker given there was more ownership for the work (and a different mentality between the two places). Client exposure was about the same on live deals.

I'm not saying its standard experience, but at top BBs I've seen analysts craft better investment theses and stronger stories (as it seemed a more common practice than at the MM firm). As for buyside recruiting, I think a major player is just buy side comfort with the sell side firm and candidates from that firm. I.e. if PE fund X regularly takes Barcap analysts, they know they can expect a certain level of ability. With a MM firm who hasn't placed at that fund, its a little more of a risk (given there's no standard for quality). Firm connections can help too, in the event a Principal at a fund calls an associate, VP or MD at the bank to ask "hey, we're looking into possibly hiring analyst X, is he any good?"

These may not be industry wide standards, I'm sure it varies, but that's just what I've seen.

12/5/06

how are associate's lives at CIBC? same as most middle market banks, where analyst and associates are pretty much interchangeable? i.e. either an associate OR analyst will be staffed on a deal team, rather than both?

6/17/16

Why did you have to go and start another one of these threads... And BB don't even pay the most.

6/17/16

What prestige are you referring to exactly...

6/17/16

Don't live other people's lifestyle, decide on what you think is the best. From your other unnecessary posts, knowing you're a target student, stop sounding so dependent and think for yourself for once.

6/17/16

Thanks for the laughs..

6/17/16

I thought about laying into you, but it'd be too easy, you have a public linkedin, I know what school you go to (good school by the way), etc.

here's some serious advice.

1. read every single thread that's on the first page of the top threads all time (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/hot-topics/all-time)
2. read the WSO FAQs (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/frequently-asked-qu...)
3. take time to think about what questions you STILL have, because as you can see we don't take kindly to someone who posts 5 threads asking questions that have been answered before
4. post 1 thread at a time, and mention what you don't understand (possibly referencing prior threads)

let this be your first lesson in finance: you are not special, no one will treat you any differently than someone else because you have the gall to ask questions that have already been answered, there's no such thing as a free lunch, and only superficial dickheads really care about prestige & fashion to the tune of picking their firm based on that (great comment about it in this thread: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/young-money-pe...).

best of luck, and WA HOO WA!

"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton

"The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself." - Benjamin Graham

12/5/06

Sorry i don't start until July 2007.

Is the bonus really lower than BB. I can definitely see that since the deals aren't as large. But there are less people to pay. I've just heard and read that MM bonuses can be just as high as BB (45-65k).

I just can't believe that working for a BB can provide significantly better exit opps. Better yes, but not significant. I-banking is I-banking.

Perhaps its just wishful thinking since I'll be in a MM. But I'm also going what I've read elsewhere.

And in terms of resources, CIBC is a huge bank in Canada with just a smaller MM arm in the U.S. So the resources and research are probably just as good as a BB. But then again, CIBC isn't a boutique. Hence the MM vs. BB comparison.

12/5/06
IronBanker:

Is the bonus really lower than BB. I can definitely see that since the deals aren't as large. But there are less people to pay. I've just heard and read that MM bonuses can be just as high as BB (45-65k).

FYI, 45-65 is not street average for BBs, it's more like 70-80.

IronBanker:

I just can't believe that working for a BB can provide significantly better exit opps. Better yes, but not significant. I-banking is I-banking.

I would almost call it significant. The big difference is that your top shops have better contacts within all the top hedge funds and sponsors. Second is that most BBs are pretty active in helping analysts out by sending around internal-only job postings and having HR people dedicated to analyst exit ops.

You're signed up already, I'm not sure why you need validation from anyone else. Just go there and work your ass off, and things will fall into place on their own.

6/17/16

The hours are pretty much the same on average, the BB analysts pull a few more all nighters though I'm guessing.

But on the whole, if you're expecting a different experience at an MM.....don't count on it. Hours will be 100+/week, and pay will be Street for the most part.

6/17/16

I find it unusual that any banker average 100+ hours a week...mean is probably more like 85

6/17/16

I am curious as to how much variance there is between working in NYC and other locations. I've been told that there is a difference, albeit marginal, in the amount of hours worked by Associates in NYC vs being out of NYC. Can anyone comment on this?

6/17/16

Admo, there's a guy in my group who averages (yes, averages) around 115. He has been known to work 130s-140s, though.

There are also groups who average 85. It's all a matter of where you end up.

6/17/16

given there is a general "face time" culture in every company, like Mis Ind said, it's all about the group you fall in.

6/17/16

I agree with that, but if you take out all the outliers and throw in an average, 100+, in my opinion is way too high across all groups and banks. However, my roomate, now at a hedge fund, worked at Goldman FIG = DEATH, and he was much higher than myself, he was prob 100+

6/17/16

especially if there are more transactions. so, if you work for MM, chances are that your group will be small, hence you work a lot more hours.

6/17/16

my individual experience has been not 100 regularily..but more often 90+ for my team and other product groups.

6/17/16

Is there any difference in hours between NYC and another city? Such as SF? Or does it all just depend on who u work for?

6/17/16

more hours = more deal flow;
more deal flow = better experience;
better experience = better exit ops, b-school, etc.

Banking is not a lifestyle business. If hours are that much of a consideration for you, go into consulting. As an analyst, I would be worried about working with any group that doesn't average 90+.

12/5/06

I-banking is I-banking, but if your experience involves doing the mundane activities that a BB sources to internal print/research/graphics departments then you don't get as much exposure to modeling etc. and will not be able to contend for the best exit ops.

6/17/16

not 100% sure but ive heard a lot of people say wait at least a year before attempting to lateral

6/17/16

Yeah. It's always a good sign if you spend at least 24 months at your first company. You can do an internal transfer after 12 months, but stick with the same company for at least 2 years. And it's always nice to get that bonus.

If you leave after less than 18 months, your managers usually have lost money on you. So think long and hard before you do that- your manager placed a very expensive bet on you by hiring you, and you owe it to him to let that bet pay off.

Caveat: I tend to track a little more to the conservative/loyal side than a lot of folks when it comes to careers.

6/17/16
IlliniProgrammer:

Yeah. It's always a good sign if you spend at least 24 months at your first company. You can do an internal transfer after 12 months, but stick with the same company for at least 2 years. And it's always nice to get that bonus.

If you leave after less than 18 months, your managers usually have lost money on you. So think long and hard before you do that- your manager placed a very expensive bet on you by hiring you, and you owe it to him to let that bet pay off.

Caveat: I tend to track a little more to the conservative/loyal side than a lot of folks when it comes to careers.

You don't owe anyone anything, period. If you want to go join another firm, then do it; just be professional how you go about it. People leave for better jobs all the time....

Companies aren't loyal to you so you don't owe them loyalty back.

Consultant to a Fortune 50 Company

6/17/16
alexpasch:

You don't owe anyone anything, period. If you want to go join another firm, then do it; just be professional how you go about it. People leave for better jobs all the time....

Companies aren't loyal to you so you don't owe them loyalty back.

Well, companies aren't loyal but sometimes managers are. But the real question is how leaving before 12-months looks on your resume.

Companies realize that it's unprofitable to hire someone who's going to leave next month. There is also some doubt as to why you left after less than twelve months of work. Sitcking it out 18-24 months shows that somebody at firm X had the ability to evaluate your work product and decided that you were worth keeping. It also shows that you're not a job hopper and that you're not a flake.

6/17/16
alexpasch:

You don't owe anyone anything, period. If you want to go join another firm, then do it; just be professional how you go about it. People leave for better jobs all the time....

Companies aren't loyal to you so you don't owe them loyalty back.

Truth.

6/17/16

Lateralling aside, what about the initial question of middle market vs BB... will there be opportunities at BBs in the future if I stay with the MM?

6/17/16
quiksilver13a:

Lateralling aside, what about the initial question of middle market vs BB... will there be opportunities at BBs in the future if I stay with the MM?

Stick it out two years at the MM. Learn as much as you can. Get into a great business school (HBS, UChicago, Wharton, etc. etc.) in the geographic area you are trying to establish your next professional network. Then apply to all the BBs.

After you get the MBA, coupled with your 2/3 years IB experience...you shouldn't have a problem getting into a BB if you get your foot in the door. Make lots of friends in business school so you can leverage their network into your BB job.

If banking is already your decided long-term career, then why are you worried about BB vs MM as exit ops don't matter to you? You may find you really like the MM...or...you hate banking all together.

Financial Modeling

12/5/06

yes exit ops at BB are better than MM, the point is you are still far aheard of your peer group simply by doing banking. exit ops may not be better than BB but they are far and away better than any other job one can get, with the exception of top consulting gigs

6/17/16

And before anyone freaks out about not using the search function, I haven't found a very good recent thread for this

6/17/16

I would take Jefferies over UBS any day of the week.

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

6/17/16

Overall, JEF > HL

But in LA, HL > JEF

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

6/17/16

Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

6/17/16

NormanLF:
Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

lol

6/17/16

NormanLF:
Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

You do realize that these are not MM banks? Lazard and Moelis advise on many of the largest M&A transactions.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

NorthSider:
NormanLF:
Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

You do realize that these are not MM banks? Lazard and Moelis advise on many of the largest M&A transactions.


Moelis does plenty of middle market deals (along with several high-profile, multi-billion dollar deals).

When one man, for whatever reason, has an opportunity to lead an extraordinary life, he has no right to keep it to himself.

6/17/16

NormanLF:
Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

Really? Those are MM groups now?

6/17/16

NormanLF:
Lazard/Rothschild/Moelis over anything except JPM and GS.

I may agree with this (not 100%, and would definitely include MS), but I don't think that this is the answer to the question asked.

"They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."

6/17/16

Would take HL and Rothschild restructuring offers over a lot of the BBs for exits into distressed debt funds. Other than that, I wouldn't take any MM m&a over any BB (in either their HQ or a strong regional office). Pretty sure even UBS provides better exit ops vs. any MM.

6/17/16

levered.arb:
I think the idea of taking a MM over a BB isn't too farfetched, if you actually want to work in MM going forward. This applies whether P/E or banking.

If you don't want to work in the MM space, then UBS (or insert any other "low tier" BB) would still be better due to more relevant transaction work.

Same with distressed: If you want to be in a distressed HF or PE firm, take a rx gig at any of the top boutiques.

Just my two cents

You realize UBS IBD won't exist in two years right?

6/17/16

I think the idea of taking a MM over a BB isn't too farfetched, if you actually want to work in MM going forward. This applies whether P/E or banking.

If you don't want to work in the MM space, then UBS (or insert any other "low tier" BB) would still be better due to more relevant transaction work.

Same with distressed: If you want to be in a distressed HF or PE firm, take a rx gig at any of the top boutiques.

Just my two cents

6/17/16

levered.arb:
I think the idea of taking a MM over a BB isn't too farfetched, if you actually want to work in MM going forward. This applies whether P/E or banking.

If you don't want to work in the MM space, then UBS (or insert any other "low tier" BB) would still be better due to more relevant transaction work.

Same with distressed: If you want to be in a distressed HF or PE firm, take a rx gig at any of the top boutiques.

Just my two cents

This is sound.

6/17/16

levered.arb:
I think the idea of taking a MM over a BB isn't too farfetched, if you actually want to work in MM going forward. This applies whether P/E or banking.

If you don't want to work in the MM space, then UBS (or insert any other "low tier" BB) would still be better due to more relevant transaction work.

Same with distressed: If you want to be in a distressed HF or PE firm, take a rx gig at any of the top boutiques.

Just my two cents

I agree, there are certainly strong MM banks with good dealflow that would tempt kids away from a weaker group at a BB (particularly if the end goal is MM PE).

Also,isn't this thread really just a "rank the banks" thread in disguise? i.e. "I'd pick XYZ MM banks over ABC BB's, but not CDE MM banks."

Maybe a better/more interesting question would be: Would you take a regional BB offer over a MM offer in HQ? Again, very group dependent and generalized, but then again, these questions always are.

6/17/16

thanks for the input so far!

6/17/16

Moelis & Co. is really good. They'll never be a bulge bracket because Ken wouldn't allow it. But the things they've done in five and a half years goes to show how much of investment banking is based on relationships and long-term client focus. The way that shop is run and with the resources they have, the bankers from every other firm, I would consider it 5th or 6th on a list of banks.

6/17/16

Depends entirely on office. GS, CS, MS, and JPM west coast offices are, in many cases, equal or better than the NYC offices for PE exits. Many regional offices are extremely weak though.

6/17/16

distressedmergers:
Depends entirely on office. GS, CS, MS, and JPM west coast offices are, in many cases, equal or better than the NYC offices for PE exits. Many regional offices are extremely weak though.
My understanding is that different offices are only better for very specific industries (i.e. houston-energy or chicago-industrials) across banks. However, for the most part, a good rule of thumb is that a firm's HQ city is the most reputable (which is why NYC is so sought).

So although there are small variances amongst offices, I feel that shouldn't affect the big picture.

6/17/16

black mamba22:
distressedmergers:
Depends entirely on office. GS, CS, MS, and JPM west coast offices are, in many cases, equal or better than the NYC offices for PE exits. Many regional offices are extremely weak though.
My understanding is that different offices are only better for very specific industries (i.e. houston-energy or chicago-industrials) across banks. However, for the most part, a good rule of thumb is that a firm's HQ city is the most reputable (which is why NYC is so sought).

So although there are small variances amongst offices, I feel that shouldn't affect the big picture.

Confused by your comment. Yes, the regional offices are almost exclusively coverage.

Houston: O&G
San Francisco: Technology/Healthcare
Chicago: Industrials

Coincidence or no, those groups are some of the best at GS/CS/MS/JPM, and place really well. Not really relevant that they're 'regional.' I don't think the GS TMT guy gives a shit that he's not working in 500 West when he gets his Silver Lake offer and watches his NY buddies all competing for the same 5 megafund spots at H&F.

6/17/16

triplectz:
black mamba22:
distressedmergers:
Depends entirely on office. GS, CS, MS, and JPM west coast offices are, in many cases, equal or better than the NYC offices for PE exits. Many regional offices are extremely weak though.
My understanding is that different offices are only better for very specific industries (i.e. houston-energy or chicago-industrials) across banks. However, for the most part, a good rule of thumb is that a firm's HQ city is the most reputable (which is why NYC is so sought).

So although there are small variances amongst offices, I feel that shouldn't affect the big picture.

Confused by your comment. Yes, the regional offices are almost exclusively coverage.

Houston: O&G
San Francisco: Technology/Healthcare
Chicago: Industrials

Coincidence or no, those groups are some of the best at GS/CS/MS/JPM, and place really well. Not really relevant that they're 'regional.' I don't think the GS TMT guy gives a shit that he's not working in 500 West when he gets his Silver Lake offer and watches his NY buddies all competing for the same 5 megafund spots at H&F.

200 West*

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

I like the blue MMs the best, the classic milk chocolate taste in every bite. But given the choice between a bag of button-shaped candies and a thick chunky candy bar, I'll just take the Snickers.

6/17/16

What about the regional middle market banks like Harris Williams, janney, Baird, etc.? are these names more in line with what the op was asking?

6/17/16

I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps

6/17/16

nardar:
I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps

Again, none of the banks listed here are MM boutiques.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

NorthSider:
nardar:
I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps

Again, none of the banks listed here are MM boutiques.

How many times does this need to be said?

6/17/16

peinvestor2012:
NorthSider:
nardar:
I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps

Again, none of the banks listed here are MM boutiques.

How many times does this need to be said?

Apparently nobody listens!

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

NorthSider:
peinvestor2012:
NorthSider:
nardar:
I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps

Again, none of the banks listed here are MM boutiques.

How many times does this need to be said?

Apparently nobody listens!

how about the ones i mentioned earlier?

"What about the regional middle market banks like Harris Williams, janney, Baird, etc.? are these names more in line with what the op was asking?"

6/17/16

skylinegtr94:
how about the ones i mentioned earlier?

"What about the regional middle market banks like Harris Williams, janney, Baird, etc.? are these names more in line with what the op was asking?"

Certainly. And although there are always exceptions, I don't think there are many that would accept an offer at one of these banks over even a low-tier BB. Motivations differ from person to person, however.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

nardar:
I think most people would consider Lazard, Evercore, Greenhill, and Moelis along with any BB offer seeing as how they offer just as much in the way of compensation/exit opps
ughhh
6/17/16

Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

6/17/16

AsianMonky:
Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

CS and BAML have tons of exits to MM PE, so I don't think that MM PE exits would be a relevant concern. Look, there are definitely exits from both, and if you have a strong preference for the team / work environment at a MM IB, by all means, go for it! However, as a practical matter, even low-tier BBs generally have more exits than MM banks. RX is an exception.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

NorthSider:
AsianMonky:
Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

CS and BAML have tons of exits to MM PE, so I don't think that MM PE exits would be a relevant concern. Look, there are definitely exits from both, and if you have a strong preference for the team / work environment at a MM IB, by all means, go for it! However, as a practical matter, even low-tier BBs generally have more exits than MM banks. RX is an exception.

I would agree with this. Especially when coming from a strong group. Lower-tier BB's still have tons of connections with PE (both mega and mm) and HF, while MM IB usually only places into MM PE.

Strong MM firms (HW, Baird, Blair, Stifel, Lincoln) all place fairly well into MM PE. However, some of the aforementioned firms (Lazard, EVR, Blackstone) all work on Mega cap deals. That means they compete against the BBs for business and thus also, to some extent, for placement in megafunds and hf.

Firms like Moelis & Rothschild (US only) do the occasional headline deal, but also pitch mm deals that the BB's and others wouldn't. They place into megafunds/hf as well as mm pe fairly often. From a quick LinkedIn search I could gather that they place more into mm pe than the BBs and less into megafunds, percentage wise. This would probably be due to the fact that their analysts are constantly working on the super-large cap deals but also dabble in the MM.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that your experience is what helps you land the next job. So if you work in mm ib ---. mm pe, more often than not. Vice-versa for larger cap deals. And a general mix for the companies that do a mix of deals.

6/17/16

levered.arb:
NorthSider:
AsianMonky:
Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

CS and BAML have tons of exits to MM PE, so I don't think that MM PE exits would be a relevant concern. Look, there are definitely exits from both, and if you have a strong preference for the team / work environment at a MM IB, by all means, go for it! However, as a practical matter, even low-tier BBs generally have more exits than MM banks. RX is an exception.

I would agree with this. Especially when coming from a strong group. Lower-tier BB's still have tons of connections with PE (both mega and mm) and HF, while MM IB usually only places into MM PE.

Strong MM firms (HW, Baird, Blair, Stifel, Lincoln) all place fairly well into MM PE. However, some of the aforementioned firms (Lazard, EVR, Blackstone) all work on Mega cap deals. That means they compete against the BBs for business and thus also, to some extent, for placement in megafunds and hf.

Firms like Moelis & Rothschild (US only) do the occasional headline deal, but also pitch mm deals that the BB's and others wouldn't. They place into megafunds/hf as well as mm pe fairly often. From a quick LinkedIn search I could gather that they place more into mm pe than the BBs and less into megafunds, percentage wise. This would probably be due to the fact that their analysts are constantly working on the super-large cap deals but also dabble in the MM.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that your experience is what helps you land the next job. So if you work in mm ib ---. mm pe, more often than not. Vice-versa for larger cap deals. And a general mix for the companies that do a mix of deals.

Great info!

So if you're at a MM, like Blair, HLHZ, Baird, in non NYC like Chicago, do you have basically have little to no chance at landing a HF position after the analyst stint?

6/17/16

AsianMonky:
Great info!

So if you're at a MM, like Blair, HLHZ, Baird, in non NYC like Chicago, do you have basically have little to no chance at landing a HF position after the analyst stint?

Things are never going to get this cut-and-dried, especially since "HF" is such a broad category. Assuming you mean a >$2bn AUM L/S fund: Is it a common exit? No. Does it happen? Absolutely.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

AsianMonky:

Great info!

So if you're at a MM, like Blair, HLHZ, Baird, in non NYC like Chicago, do you have basically have little to no chance at landing a HF position after the analyst stint?

Think about where most of the BB placements to HFs comes from. Then think about what the MM groups specialize in, sans HLHZ (RX).

As Northsider stated, it definitely happens. But, it is more rare coming from MM M&A that you'd move to a traditional L/S or Global Macro HF.

6/17/16

AsianMonky:
Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

I did the same thing. And i wanted peace of mind that i would be getting a bonus and not worry about being laid off. Call me stupid but im happy and thts what matters.

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG

6/17/16

AnalystMonkey2769:
AsianMonky:
Interesting- I know someone who took top MM offer - think HLHZ, Blair, Baird over BB offer - CS, BAML due to interest in MM PE. What do you think about that? What about if he wanted HF? Would mid to lower tier BB be better than top MM?

I did the same thing. And i wanted peace of mind that i would be getting a bonus and not worry about being laid off. Call me stupid but im happy and thts what matters.

How has your experience been at your MM so far? Do you regret not going to BB at all? Any plans for after analyst stint?

6/17/16

RX being an exception

6/17/16

I'm pretty sure HLHZ Rx places really well into distressed hf. I'm not too sure about Baird or Blair in regards to HF opportunities.

6/17/16

levered.arb:
I'm pretty sure HLHZ Rx places really well into distressed hf. I'm not too sure about Baird or Blair in regards to HF opportunities.

True, im from LA and know ppl in HL RX. HL FAS/Corp fin is pretty shitty, its sub most other MMs and only gets their name out their because its the same name as the RX arm...but yea if you're in HL RX specifically you'll get shots at HF, distressed funds and Mega Fund. An analyst in my superday specifically said he was interviewing at Carlyle lol

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG

6/17/16

AnalystMonkey2769:
levered.arb:
I'm pretty sure HLHZ Rx places really well into distressed hf. I'm not too sure about Baird or Blair in regards to HF opportunities.

True, im from LA and know ppl in HL RX. HL FAS/Corp fin is pretty shitty, its sub most other MMs and only gets their name out their because its the same name as the RX arm...but yea if you're in HL RX specifically you'll get shots at HF, distressed funds and Mega Fund. An analyst in my superday specifically said he was interviewing at Carlyle lol

HLHZ M&A out of Minneapolis has a few good deals, VPs. Can't speak for LA or anywhere else.

6/17/16

AnalystMonkey2769:
levered.arb:
I'm pretty sure HLHZ Rx places really well into distressed hf. I'm not too sure about Baird or Blair in regards to HF opportunities.

True, im from LA and know ppl in HL RX. HL FAS/Corp fin is pretty shitty, its sub most other MMs and only gets their name out their because its the same name as the RX arm...but yea if you're in HL RX specifically you'll get shots at HF, distressed funds and Mega Fund. An analyst in my superday specifically said he was interviewing at Carlyle lol

Yeah apparently some were interviewing at KKR as well lol

6/17/16

GentlePillow:
AnalystMonkey2769:
levered.arb:
I'm pretty sure HLHZ Rx places really well into distressed hf. I'm not too sure about Baird or Blair in regards to HF opportunities.

True, im from LA and know ppl in HL RX. HL FAS/Corp fin is pretty shitty, its sub most other MMs and only gets their name out their because its the same name as the RX arm...but yea if you're in HL RX specifically you'll get shots at HF, distressed funds and Mega Fund. An analyst in my superday specifically said he was interviewing at Carlyle lol

Yeah apparently some were interviewing at KKR as well lol

thts nucking futs. wow.

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG

6/17/16

My friend chose Moelis over UBS / Credit Suisse IB.

"I do not think that there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcomes almost everything, even nature."

6/17/16

Ambani:
My friend chose Moelis over UBS / Credit Suisse IB.

Again, Moelis is not a MM bank.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

NorthSider:
Ambani:
My friend chose Moelis over UBS / Credit Suisse IB.

Again, Moelis is not a MM bank.

Moelis is undoubtedly strong but I think this is a misleading statement.
Moelis dabbles in large deals but the bulk of their work involves (pitching) the MM

*source: roommate summered there and will be returning FT

6/17/16

leigh:
Moelis is undoubtedly strong but I think this is a misleading statement.
Moelis dabbles in large deals but the bulk of their work involves (pitching) the MM

*source: roommate summered there and will be returning FT

This is undoubtedly true, but for the purposes of this discussion, I doubt many on this site would put Moelis in the same group as HLHZ or JEF.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

6/17/16

Maybe we need to create a thread reminding what MM banks are? That really escalated quickly...

6/17/16

It really depends on the city. In Toronto for example, I would much rather work at a Canadian MM an a bulge bracket. RBC, CIBC, BMO > GS,CS, MS, BAML >>>> UBS

12/5/06

You got an extraordinarily tough job to get. CIBC is very solid. Don't get caught up in masturbating to BB or MM as many on this site and in college do. Just get there and perform. The money will come in and the opportunities will follow. But for right now, just feel blessed to be set already and have a damn good job.

And be sure to crack open a beer as well, nothing like partying on a Tuesday night when you've got a job already.

"To Know Me Is To Love Me"-Jebus Price

6/17/16

Can I be an engineer if I went to college for engineering?

Yus.

12/5/06

I'm drinkin one now

6/17/16

only if ur in ecm

how about top MM vs lower bb?

6/17/16

to clarify, mm is m&a and bb is coverage ibd (#1 on league table). problem is i like ppl from both groups and there are difft selling points:

mm
-only m&a, stronger dealflow per employee
-strong placement into mm pe

bb
-pitching, pitching pitching
-ohter products (some ECM/DCM)
-strong dealflow
-big big group

6/17/16

people is a huge factor. I'm guessing the top MM is WB? anyways I think having people who like you and will stick their neck out for you is a big factor, definitely makes the analyst life style less painful.

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

6/17/16

jimbojones96, William Blair is definitely a well respected shop in the middle market.

To the original poster -- decide whether you're interested in working on large cap deals or MM deals and then go from there.

CompBanker

6/17/16

well jimbo if WB is not top, which firms are top?

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

6/17/16

I chose BB but it's up to the person. It seems like op is already decided on mm though based on his pro and con list.

6/17/16

what are the top MM? Harris Williams, HLHZ, etc?

6/17/16

It seems to me that you might tend to get a little more involved in a deal at a MM firm than at a BB, but I could be completely wrong. First year analysts at my bank and a comparable MM firms are brought to every pitch (and actually asked to speak fairly often), they handle ALL of the modeling, they are actually able to voice their ideas for the main themes in marketing materials, they attend all management presentations, they are on the phone with potential buyers, etc.

For those of you at a BB, are you getting the same level of involvement?

6/17/16

thanks for the opinions guys.

in response to compbanker, i think all else equal, no one would choose midcap deals over large cap deals. i think the main selling point of the mm is the more comprehensive analyst experience (some of what longshot listed).

i was hoping that a bb analyst in a group that handles its own modelling could comment on the type of experience they got.

the reason i'm partial to the mm is cuz i think the numbers/models are all generally bullshit.

12/5/06

Don't worry about the pay CIBC pays street.

Exit opps are quite different, but who cares... don't get caught up in exit opps unless u don't like banking 12 months in. I am rounding out a third year thought I'd stay to associate, but decided to head for opps

--
Interview Guides
GMAT Tutors

WSO Resume Review

Current:
Senior Analyst - Hedge Fund
Past:
Associate - Tech Buyout
Analyst - Morgan St

6/17/16

Are MM boutique banks easier to get offers at versus a big name NYC bank?

6/17/16

the boutique bank she got an offer in recruits in only 3-4 schools, so it's harder to get in if you arent a target. some people go there because they couldn't get BB, some just like it

  • movetofinance
  •  6/17/16

ive seen a couple of posts from you. seems like you have a lot of friends who have a lot of decisions about banking/finance who come to you. interesting.

6/17/16

Yea, my friends talk about stuff like this a lot - generally we're not really happy about our internships. Thought it would be easier to ask a question instead of everyone sign up for accounts. Your thoughts on the offers?

6/17/16

Capital Markets, period. IB sucks bizalls. Even with the promise of POSSIBLY making it rain cash working in PE, IB still sucks. S&T all day every day.

6/17/16

question: if you intern at say a top bb/respected MM bank your junior year, and say realize you dont want to do IB, do you have the option/feasibility of getting into S&T, and more specifically a sales desk?

6/17/16

yes waltersobchek you can. now don't hijack my thread :)

6/17/16

also, i heard GCM at MS allows ppl to move from GCM to IBD if they want (or vice versa).

Which is better for exit opps?

6/17/16

markets are cooling. take the top BB offer.

if the market hits the floor the big guys' mds will pitch against the boutique's mds.

if you ran a firm and you're ipo'ing. do you want GS or Thomas Weisel left lead. even though it costs more, you want GS.

hedge yourself.

plus the weaker market means better hours if your group is legit.

6/17/16

dude, boutique's are gaining big market share in invesmtment banking...dont underestimate them

6/17/16

I would say if you have both options, you should go to a BB. You can never go wrong going to a BB in my opinion. I did an internship with a MM before. I observed analysts getting to run the deals by himself...

However, deal sizes are smaller, and the training at BB is top class, compared to a MM.

6/17/16

BB, especially if you can get into one of the BB's strong regional offices. In such a case, you're guaranteed good deal flow and you get to avoid the frat rush-esque process of New York group selection and risk ending up in a crappy group. By "crappy group," I mean one that will not open doors for PE (assuming that's your goal).

MMs are a crapshoot. If you're talking about Jefferies, Baird, certain groups in Piper, and the like, you'll have some decent exit opps. Bear in mind, however, that PE shops, even MM ones, go after the BBs first.

You could end up at a bank that claims to be MM on its website, but is actually quite shitty and won't give you good experience.

6/17/16

if you are comparing something between DB,WF,etc to jef,Baird,hw,. It will really depend on which group you will be placed in because they have the same rep to PE guys' eyes.

As whateveritatakes stated, if you are in a good regional group (say...db tech, Barclays NRG), then by all means take the BB. But if you in a good MM group (jef tech, jef healthcare, jef lefin or hw richmond, Baird chicago) compared to a crapshoot to some nyc group, i would take the MM spot

6/17/16

It seems the group is very important and there are some MMs that will give you more experience than a BB but you'll sacrifice on training. Good question though!

6/17/16

You all kidding right? I talked with a number of ex-BB analysts who lateraled to boutiques (both MM and elite). They all say that the experience at boutiques blows BB experience out of water. That being said, you cannot go wrong with a brand name.

There is literally no difference between a $25MM M&A deal and a $1BB M&A deal.

whateverittakes has no idea wtf he is talking about.

6/17/16

No, I do. I'm at a BB, and in a good group.

You're not always guaranteed superior experience at a MM.

Literally no difference between a small and a large M&A deal? Based on the sheer amount of components of a larger company's operating model (e.g. more stores, more unique business units, etc.), I'd argue differently.

No need for the hyperbole.

6/17/16

To be honest you're putting the cart before the horse here. The job market is tough right now and no undergrad student is in a position to be excluding a company from their job/interview search because it might put them at a disadvantage when it comes to applying for an MBA at least three years from now. Being unemployed kills your MBA chances, not working at a MM vs. a BB.

When you have offers from both is when you think about stuff like this, and yes more often than not people will go with the BB because of stronger name recognition/network. Right now you should be focusing on putting as many high quality applications out there as possible, studying hard for finals, and practicing your interviews.

MM IB -> TMT Corporate Development

6/17/16

SECfinance:

When you have offers from both is when you think about stuff like this, and yes more often than not people will go with the BB because of stronger name recognition/network. Right now you should be focusing on putting as many high quality applications out there as possible, studying hard for finals, and practicing your interviews.

Definitely agreed with the above. I know more than a few people (all from semi-target undergrads) who did stints at well-known MM shops and have gone on to HBS and then respectable PE stints. Much of it has to do with the quality of the work experience you get, your undergraduate background, what organizations/activities you devote your time to outside of work, and the GMAT.

6/17/16

FutureAnalyst:
SECfinance:

When you have offers from both is when you think about stuff like this, and yes more often than not people will go with the BB because of stronger name recognition/network. Right now you should be focusing on putting as many high quality applications out there as possible, studying hard for finals, and practicing your interviews.

Definitely agreed with the above. I know more than a few people (all from semi-target undergrads) who did stints at well-known MM shops and have gone on to HBS and then respectable PE stints. Much of it has to do with the quality of the work experience you get, your undergraduate background, what organizations/activities you devote your time to outside of work, and the GMAT.


I completely agree with this. Most of the people I know in the industry worked at respectable MM shops. They all ended up at HBS / Stanford / Wharton / Booth / Kellogg.

CompBanker

6/17/16

Thanks for the advice. I was actually asking because I have been fortunate enough to land an offer at a well known MM where I loved the culture and the people. I just wanted to know if taking an internship and hopefully job there would seriously hurt my chances of making it to at a top tier business school. Thanks again.

6/17/16

how would a top MM firm like HW/Jefferies fare in terms of MBA chances vs a lower tier BB? this is very broad base question so assume all else equal, only difference would be name on resume.

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG

6/17/16

It's tough to say. If your ultimate goal is PE, both paths will give you the opportunity to get there. Choose the one you're most interested in or like the people the most. Also, in the current environment, you may want to place a heavy emphasis on job security and surviving your two years.

I work at a middle market M&A shop and our placement into PE was nearly 100% until recently as a lot of PE shops love M&A bankers.

~~~~~~~~~~~
CompBanker

CompBanker

6/17/16

I interned for a pretty good sized PE fund last summer when they where raising a round of funding & looking for junior people. I helped the admin sort the resumes (we got a flood of them): m&a/referenced on one pile & pretty much everything else into the not getting a phone interview pile. We then sorted them into deal size worked on & educational background. If you can get down range on some good deals at this shop go for it.

6/17/16

westfald, just out of curiosity, how did you sort them based on educational bg? what were the groupings like?

6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
6/17/16
Add a Comment
WallStreet Prep Master Financial Modeling