buying a rental property with a friend - how to structure?
I know this isn't a high-finance/commercial real estate question, but a friend of mine has a little bit of money and wants to buy a small rental property (a house), and he wants to do it with me. He knows I have hardly any money to bring to the table, but it'd still be a fun learning experience to do it as partners. I would "manage" it (collect rent checks, anything else I could do ... also help find the property).
So, I'm not doing it for the money. However, it just seems silly to invest my $1,000 and get $100/yr back on that, even though that's a good return. And I know there are a thousand ways of structuring this "JV", but I'm sure somebody's done this before. Any ideas?
50/50 but seriously if you contribute $1000 and he contributes the rest he must be a good friend. Don't get in debt to do that.
No disrespect, but if you put more cash into a deal you reap higher rewards. If I was your 'friend' I wouldn't give you a handout no matter how much I like you.
Haha you could always do a waterfall distribution....although that's probably overkill for a single family rental. Although if you're the manager (GP) and your friend's putting up the capital, that would make some sense...
Maybe I'm being ridiculous or selfish to think about asking for a small management fee or anything. Maybe I should consider myself lucky to participate in such a side project. Perhaps I'll just put in my $1k and accept whatever pro-rata ROI i can get out of that ...
To the posters above ... yes, we are really good friends and we'd both be doing it for the experience. Neither of us is going to get rich off this thing.
Here's an idea.
Let your friend invest his money alone. He hires professional property manager. He sees a return.
You save money. Invest in your own property later. You also hire professional property manager. You see a return.
My point: your tenants will make you or break you. You'll want to find the right ones. Either way, they're still annoying.
Essentially you're acting as the servicer so on top of your return, ask for 4% or something that you guys can agree on. Gives you more return and compensates you for your involvement in the process. Still won't be much but at least it's a little more.
Structure it either in a LLC (costs around $2000 in NY to do so) or INC ($500). It looks like you will be doing most of the leg work, so I would try to make that a point when it comes to equity distribution (if you are running the property a extra 8-10% is not crazy talk). If he is your friend, he should not be against the idea of maybe buying more shares in the future.
Just have it based on amount of cash put in, and charge a management fee ;)
5 Things You Should Know Before Buying a Rental Property (Originally Posted: 10/10/2013)
About six months ago a buddy and I thought it might be a good idea to purchase an investment property near where I live. After a few months of searching we found a great unit and decided to pull the trigger. The unit had been a rental apartment for over a decade and the interior showed it so we decided to embark on a cosmetic renovation (skimming and painting the walls, redoing the tile in the bathrooms, fixing the floors) before we rented it. While none of this is exactly earth shattering, here are things I learned during the process that are good to know before you purchase a rental property.
Our goal for this project was not to make a 30% IRR or hit a huge multiple but rather to diversify and own a real, income producing asset. While the deal did not always go smoothly and there are sure to be some landlord headaches moving forward, it was great exposure to the nuts and bolts of real estate.
I own a couple of properties right now, however I rent an apartment for myself...go figure. It sounds like you actually did pretty well for yourself, it may not have gone completely according to plan but as long as you have a tenant in there within a few weeks after renovations and the renovations were only a little over budget then you should count it as a win. You will never get rich off of rental income, unless you own the property free and clear. Rental rates don't always exceed mortgage+taxes+insurance+realtor fees+renovations. However, the overall goal of the property is to build equity and appreciate over time and you'll make the money on the back end. Congrats on your first deal, it's always the hardest regardless of how big or small.
I'm right there with you.
Why do you need that many properties for a property manager? Is that something about NYC? I don't live in NYC.
OP is speaking the truth. I've had the same problems with both of the appartments I currently own. Looking to increase my portfolio of places, but I can't decide if I want to be "first-mover" into a potential up and coming part of town.
Ive analyzed and researched SFR properties and to me - I could never come up with a respectible IRR to justify the amount of physical work you have to do.
It only ever made sense to me if you could acquire 8-10 or more houses and then get a property manager.
These days, I've found you can get greater returns in the market (via 401-K or IRA) and dont have to do anything. The upside potential might not be as great. But just owning 2 or 3 SFRs just doesnt have the returns.
^ because Property Managers will eat damn near 100% of the profit if you only have them doing 2 or 3 houses.
If you have them doing more, you can negotiate a better fee per house.
If nearly 100% of your profit is going to property managers then the property isn't very profitable anyway, and you're wise not to buy.
Good stuff, thanks for sharing. Always assume cost overruns and delays, like with any project.
I'm curious. I own a condo which I live in currently but I graduate undergrad in May so I might be moving and looking to lease the place rather than sell it. Are you aware about tax write-offs for property owners renting out a property? Naturally, if you live in a place you can write off the mortgage interest but I'm wondering if you can count additional things to write off such as the expense of a property manager, etc.
Your profit is what is taxed. Therefore, for tax purposes it behooves you for your property to appear as least profitable as possible. It is best to consult a tax professional about the specifics though.
I believe there are a couple things we can write off or get tax breaks on. We formed a two-member LLC and we're actually meeting with an accountant in a few weeks just to make sure we're taking advantage of every break we can.
What kind of annual return are you getting on you equity right now (i.e. your operating income / your equity)? Always curious about real estate economics.
It's not a huge yield but again our goal was simply to diversify and own a real, income producing asset. However part of the reason we chose the apartment we did is that it is in a highly desirable location, high barrier to entry market in town that will hopefully be more likely to appreciate over time than a more speculative location. Our holding period for this is a long time, we're not trying to flip it. We want to build equity long-term. Also the yield will rise because we plan on raising rents each year, especially since we took a little less to get someone in quickly now (mitigated by the tenant paying the agency fee).
Is there much of a Student Housing market in the US as there is in the UK? In the right place the UK student rental market seems like it can offer strong returns if you can get into it at all. The rent I will be charged once I get off my placement year is £400 a month, bills inclusive which is worth about £32 a month. Six of us in the house = £2400 a month in rent. The average sale price on that road is £180,000.
I haven't done the maths as it's not my expertise, but all I know is my family home is a lot bigger, in a much better area and we pay a fair bit less a month as a family of 4, despite being worth 2.5-3x as much as the house in question.
GMG which area of the UK are you in? I have a BTL in London zone 1, at a 5% yield, and rent my main house (No point in buying in Chelsea when the yield are sub 1% if I ever move out...)
Your property is showing a 16% yield, that's absolutely nuts.
OP, good writeup. Yet another example on how current tenants for a property in transition can be a real pain in the ass. Thanks for sharing.
That's it? Usually, real estate investing is like a case study in Murphy's Law. Consider yourself lucky - those are common issues that rental property investors deal with.
Good insight, thanks.
threads
Good topic. But first of all person, who wants to buy a rental property need gather as much information as they can. They have to talk to other investors real estate agents and mortgage brokers who have worked with income property and ask them what owning a rental property is really like.
Figured that I might update this 3.5 years later. The property has been fully rented the entire time we've owned it. We got it re-appraised and it was about 25% higher than our purchase price. We we were able to re-finance it and take more than our initial equity out of the deal. We're continuing to chug along with our expenses paid each month by the rent and generating a little FCF.
Modeling for a Rental Property? (Originally Posted: 01/02/2016)
So in process saving up money for down payment. Will most likely be investing in a 2 or 3 unit multi family with a friend eventually moving onto bigger ones once portfolio grows and gain experience. I'm curious as in if anyone knows how a model can look for a small rental investment. I only find ones for larger properties like complexes and such.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Can you attempt to clarify your question? I'm not sure if I understand what you are asking.
You're effectively underwriting a multifamily deal. A deal for a 5, 100, 200 or more unit deal should look very similar. Albeit I'm sure you can simplify it or make it more complex depending on what you want to do.
You'd lay ground work for basic financial assumptions (purchase price, hold period, growth CAGRs, transaction costs, etc.), capital budget, revenue cash flows, operating cash flows, and etc.
Basically if anyone has links to small rental models and yes, financials to include like you stated.
Go for 5 units instead.
Eventually yes.
Are you going to be doing an owner move in? I am planning to do the same soon. I am in the SF Bay Area, the banks wont loan on anything under 5, unless you move in. Keep that in mind.
I'm in the same boat...looking for a small investment in the Bay Area. The owner occupier route definitely has some advantages. The financing terms are much more favorable and in certain areas (Oakland, for example) you can get an exemption from rent control on the smaller buildings. Just before the holidays, I made an offer on a 4-unit in Oakland. My opening offer was 23% above ask...it went for 30% more than my offer (60% more than ask)! I didn't even get a counter. Feel toppy???
As far as modeling these smaller buildings, I like to keep it very simple. I don't do a 10-Year projection. I don't make assumptions on exit caps, growth rates, etc. I don't calculate IRRs. I spend all my energy comping out the rents and verifying/budgeting the expenses. I just look at year 1 -- going in cap, cash on cash, and debt coverage. If there are significant value add opportunities (rent control exemptions, rehab, etc.), I'll consider those, but generally speaking, I don't want to pay for that upside (which appears to be what the market is doing now). Everything else is qualitative. It's really been interesting to approach this from the lens of an owner occupier. The qualitative stuff takes on a higher level of importance when you actually picture yourself living there.
Whats the reason for that? This would be a typical personal mortgage loan? I thought if you went above 5 units you have to get a commercial loan and go the local bank route? Just wondering what you had to deal with to secure the financing..
That's good to know.
I was not planning to move in unless I find a property in good area or so.
I'm in tri state area
I own around half a dozen properties. Expect to lose money when you start out, unless you are good at fixing things. I'm in the tri-state as well and most strategies focus on appreciation with limited cash flow.
How many units you dealing with? What do you find is the thing you are fixing the most?
will have to do extneisve research!
what is best way to practice modeling a property? i know theres plenty of stuff like BIWS or REFM but would just picking a property, researching all data, then inputing my own financing/loan info. in be a way?
Your best bet is contacting your local real estate investment club if you are looking to start into the residential investment game. There are a lot of rules about tenant eviction, fair housing, rent controls, etc. that are important to understand beyond simply plugging numbers into a model. They will be able to teach you about all of that stuff, especially if you are in the tri-state area which has some of the strictest housing rules in the country.
You would be amazed at how little some people can tell you about what normal operating expenses are for a 1, 2, or 3 unit property - even people who own whole bunch of houses or duplexes. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they really don't know what to budget for. They can tell you what's insanely high and what's insanely low, but sometimes that's the best you're going to get out of them, if that.
Hard to make much in the way of positive CF on these small properties. You make your money when you buy, i.e. below market value, or add value (develop new, renovate/reposition, etc.) I don't want to open a huge can of worms but I'd be hesitant to focus on asset appreciation as my primary strategy, unless you're buying in a down market of course.
As an investment you'd probably be better off in a REIT or an index fund. They won't take up all of your time either.
Just my $.02
yankss101 Yeah, I just look at Year 1 NOI which includes vacancy. As for longer projections, I don't really see the value in them for these types of properties. It's one thing if you're looking at say an office building where you have major known events that will affect CF during the hold period (tenant roll, TI, scheduled capex, etc.), but that's not the case for this type of property. Once you get to year 1 NOI, what do you get from inflating everything linearly for 10 years? I compare year 1 cash on cash to my alternative (which is the S&P index) and run some sensitivities to make sure I have the ability to hold if things don't go as planned. It's not the most sophisticated analysis but I feel it gets you to the same conclusion without the brain damage.
coolhandlucas yes, that's what they do in the Bay Area. I moved here from Chicago a year ago. In Chicago, property is usually listed near FMV with sales occuring at modest premiums/discounts. A 60% premium to ask is unusually high even for the Bay Area. My broker says it averages around 10-15%.
sfcre I live in SF and I have not checked out Sonoma County. Interesting suggestion, though. What does your client feel is driving the upside?
TheDefaultStates First off, he doesn't seem to the best property manager based upon the shape of his buildings. Throw all the rent control and tenant protections in the mix, and you can have a less than stellar outcome at times. Rents in Sonoma County have been raising quite high, I believe over 10% a year for the past few years. There is no rent control, but theres been grumblings off it. Cap Rates seem to hover between 5-6%. In the city you are looking at mid to high 3%. For about every unit in SF, you can purchase about 3 in Santa Rosa. However, that 1 unit in SF can make as much as 3x as the Santa Rosa unit. He believes the area is growing. Strong healthcare, winery, brewery type business. So he's planning on better cash flow since he is getting up there in age, and possible appreciation.
It's not a bad place to get 6-9 units for 1-1.5 million.
I've seen mixed things in my research of loans.. Do people typically do the standard 30 yr even for a rental property?
I would say the majority of people do. Puts more cash into your hands with a smaller debt payment. The tenants are paying the building off for you anyway.
I don't remember if you were planning to move into the property. If you go the owner occupier route, you can get an FHA loan with only 3% down. The fees are high, though...brings the effective rate 100bps+ over conventional financing (even higher the quicker you prepay). But if you find a deal you like and that's the only way to get into the game, it may be worthwhile.
Yeah I'm in SF. Most 6 units can be anywhere from 1.5-4 million dollars.
I would not live there because it's likely all I could afford is in a not so good area.
so you guys think 2 units is not profitable?
Nope. However, if that's your best chance of breaking into being a LL, do it. You'll make a little money, build some equity from the tenant, and learn to be a landlord on a small level. You just need to have a plan on how you are going to parlay this building into your next one, and get double if not more units the next time.
A 2 unit would be a stepping stone. My plan is to build off that. Need to start somewhere. Maybe even find a 3 unit. My portfolio would def. not be just 2 units.
Found a RE Investment club in my area which has meetings often. Will check it out. Can learn a lot for getting feet wet and advice from others.
Basic Rental property model (Originally Posted: 04/03/2013)
I currently have a home that I am renting out, as it still is not valued to where I can be in the black if I sold. I have tinkered with some larger scale rental property models, but was curious if anyone knew where I could find a model for a single family home. Just trying to use a model to value the property and hoping to tinker with it to see when to sell, raise rent, add improvements...etc. Any help would be great, and if anyone has any models it would be appreciated
As I can't PM -- lack of banana points -- I have a VERY BASIC Rent vs Loan excel spreadsheet. This was from one of my Undergrad Real Estate classes. Though it is not exactly what you're looking for, it might help get you started. Just PM me and I'll send you the file.
I have something, but can't PM either. In excel go to file>new> search "mortgage" - download the mortgage template and add a layer of other expenses on top of your mnthly pmt. Throw in your expected monthly rental income and your there. If you really want things to get interesting try looking at using a self directed roth ira to make a 30% down payment on a non-recourse loan.
Single family rental properties converted from a primary residence aren't really valued using models. You value them by comparing similar sales.
I am a real estate agent and i am interested in buying and selling homes and make investment on real estate homes flats, apartments on beach side also. Thanks a lot.
I agree with DCD. Whole other set of rules for Single family homes. The only time I've seen an income valuation was from a reit that specialized in buying large amounts of homes and renting them...
I have a simple model that runs your rental cash flows on a monthly basis. It sets rental cash flow against your mortgage payments and other expenses, calculates years to pay off and measures the impact of vacancies or extra pay down. It's not going to help you calculate a final sale price, but it is helpful in measuring your solvency over the life of the loan. It is also helpful measuring the impact of any additional improvements and resulting rent increases. The difficult part isn't modeling everything out, it's knowing what inputs are realistic. This can be especially difficult if you are renting a home in an area with few rentals to compare. I would find a local agent and get a sanity check on your inputs. If you want the model PM me and I'll send it. As for the value of your home, I agree with DCD.
I know I'm late....but....Would you mind shooting me that model, if you still have it?
Personal Finance: Investing in rental property (Originally Posted: 05/21/2015)
I am 25 and work full-time in Corp. Finance. I bring in a decent, stable income with very minimal expenses (single, no kids, no pets, on rotational assignments so my rent & utilities are paid by the company). I move for work frequently and do not own any property of my own.
Meanwhile, my brother (also 25) is licensed and has some experience in commercial and residential real estate. We are interested in investing in rental property to slowly build a portfolio over the rest of our lives.
I am looking for any advice from people who have made similar investment decisions: what were your financial constraints, what sort of rates could you get on mortgages or business loans, what geographical areas were you investing in, what types of insurance or other rental expenses did you incur, what did it take to remain profitable, etc?
Any stories or advice, positive or negative experiences would be appreciated.
I had a contact at a PE firm (very small family office). The firm wanted to get some exposure into real estate and I mentioned I had been looking to invest. After some talks they offered to put up 75% of the required equity and put their name on the loan. I grouped together a bunch of friends and got them to pitch in some money. I already had contacts in the CRE industry so I called up a few brokers and asked them to keep me in mind when new properties came up.
We only looked at properties in strong markets in large cities (D.C., Denver, Chicago, Dallas etc.). A few months later we came across a nice value add 20ish unit multifamily opportunity in a nice part of town. We performed some light rehab and rented the units out at a nice premium to the rent levels we acquired the property at. For financing we used Fannie Mae's small loan program, rates were very low.
If your brother has the right contacts, there is always the option of going in on a deal with a REPE company. Most of the properties my company buys are bought by ownership groups where no one member owns much more than 10%. Looking at one right now where about 1.5% would cost you $75,000 upfront and get you a very nice monthly return and then a solid check when it sells in a few years.
Now of course, you need to know the right people, but that’s real estate in general.
picklemonkey CRE thanks to both of you for the input. I never received notifications that anyone commented on this post, sorry it took so long to get back to you. Much obliged, I will look into your suggestions.
It's tough to give advice without being able to see your full financial picture. What CRE suggested is certainly a great route, but if you two do not have the contacts, you may need to start smaller.
As I'm sure you realize, Real Estate, especially residential real estate, can gives locals an upper hand (hence everyone saying you need to know the right people) but, if you choose to invest in an area you are familiar with, and you have help from your brother (advice and monetary) , it's VERY possible to build a handsome portfolio of properties over your life time, as well as generate pretty decent income.
Inbox me, and I can go over specifics about rates, terms, and give some suggestions!
**Background: I'm a mortgage loan officer, and my wife is a Realtor, we own a few properties already, I'm 28 and she's 25
Buying Rental Property Before You Own Your Home (Originally Posted: 01/12/2014)
Anybody done this? Thoughts on pros/cons? I'm thinking of buying a single fam home in a lower priced metro (1,000 miles away) and waiting for the social media bubble to pop before I buy in the SF Bay. What is a good return hurdle for rentals? Are the tax benefits better for rental or owner occupied?
So buying rental property and owning/managing it directly tends to make more sense if you live near it.
I am all for geographic diversification, but when the toilet clogs up, or a renter stops paying, you don't want to be 1000 miles away. In order to sue for pay or quit, you either need to hire a lawyer or show up in court. It's bad enough if you have to take a day off go to municipal court in NJ, but if you have to go to North Carolina, that's a nightmare.
One of my former coworkers bought a rental condo in Philly (he works in NYC). So far as I know, he hasn't had any issues, but he can get there in 2 hours on Amtrak if he has to.
It makes a lot of sense to own your own home when you consider the fact that rental payments you'd have to make but avoid are tax-free income. It just makes less sense to own and manage real estate, especially when it's thousands of miles away. Better to stick that money into your IRA and buy residential REITs, or better to save that money for a down payment on your own home.
Where I am moving, I work for a company that pays well in an otherwise rather inexpensive city. I'm probably going to live there for a year but buy a condo after that. If I remain frugal, I may be able to buy a nice place without needing a mortgage. But then I will have to worry about property taxes and crime- something renters only need to care about for less than 12 months. Cap rates where I'll be moving are around 6-8%, though, so it seems like not a terrible price level to buy at.
Also, I suspect that while there may be a bit of a bubble in tech, Google, Twitter, Apple, and Silicon Valley are as much of a silly fad as computers were 20 years ago. It's also impossible to build anything in California. I suspect that prices will remain elevated in San Francisco for some time, at least until interest rates begin to rise.
If you have a lot of money in excess of a 10% or 20% down payment saved up, you may want to go for a smaller home (maybe a studio apartment) in a walkable neighborhood close to lots of transportation that hopefully hasn't seen the same price runup as stuff that would be more attractive for Google employees- nothing fancy. When the bubble bursts, you sell it and then move into something bigger and more speculative.
Also remember that Cali is a non-recourse state on your primary mortgage (first mortgage only in a house that you live in). That is, you can walk away from the down payment and loan if you're willing to take the hit on your credit. So in California, a home with a mortgage works a bit more like an option than a leveraged position.
There's probably better things to do with your money
Everyone has such a short term view with rental property. Huge proponent of this if you plan on owning for perpetuity. There's nothing better than paying down debt with someone else's money.
Don't buy for income and/or appreciation. Consider the property a savings account. You can find plenty of duplex/triplex properties in tertiary markets trading at 10 - 15% cap rates, just have to be patient. Use all excess cash flow for capital reserves and/or to pay down your mortgage more quickly. Hire a good management company and you will be surprised at how well they perform and what they can take care of.
Yes, in the short run you may be losing money because certain situations come up (you have to hire a lawyer to evict, as IP said, your roof goes to shit, etc.) Unless you buy in an area where you honestly think there is a good chance your property loses 75% of its value you will be very happy when you refinance your 15% LTV duplex in 10 - 15 years.
Rinse and repeat and add to the portfolio to magnify returns. There's a reason why most HNW people allocate a significant portion of their wealth to property.
Edit: For clarification, own property ~2K miles from where I currently live.
Both @"reLA" and @"IlliniProgrammer" make some good points. If you can swing it--obviously depending on your current living situation / cash reserve / etc -- I would consider trying to get into a duplex or something now. Live in one of the units, take on some roomates, and rent out the other one. You can live rent free, build up equity, and still be nearby if something goes wrong. Not to mention people are a lot less likely to trash the place with the landlord living next door.
For a first rental, I definitely wouldn't recommend something 1k miles away. Most people I have talked to agree that you should learn the ropes managing (other than possible using a leasing agent) before you start adding geographic diversification. Maybe manage it yourself for a few years, and once you move out, refinance, use the cash for your new place, and then hire someone to manage it.
Just my 2 cents.
Do you have a car and what is the cap rate on parking spots in San Francisco? Given the Google Bus fiasco, one would think parking spots might not be as overpriced as the apartment market. Plus if the bubble continues getting more ridiculous and rents get bad enough, you could rent a spot to someone living in his car.
Guys - thanks for all the feedback. Helpful perspectives on both sides. I should've clarified this, but I'm planning to buy in a small town where I have several family members that live locally. I have family who work in construction and should be able to help with any maintenance issues, property management etc. I'm getting to about a 12% IRR at 80% occupancy, which seems decent for a single-family home rental. Ultimately, I do think there's likely more home price appreciation potential in this market than there is in SF/Peninsula, but i'm not baking that into my estimates. Lots of CA retirees moving up there as well as new jobs going in which should drive strength/prevent downside in the housing market.
I guess the trick will be keeping it rented out and finding good tenants. There are a few idiosyncratic things about this particular market that make me think I can find pretty good families to rent there. Ultimately, I guess I'm just looking to lock in a mortgage at relatively attractive rates... that, and I can't bear to pay the $700-800,000 for a 1,000sq ft condo here on the Peninsula. It will suck to keep shelling out $35k/yr in rent, but what can you do...
Now, if you were LIVING in this house, it would be a very, very compelling investment.
So don't. Pay $300K for a 450 square foot alcove studio and avoid the rent hikes that are likely coming. I'm all for conspicuous consumption, but you don't need 1000 square feet to be happy. Also, remember that San Francisco is a non-recourse state on the first mortgage on your primary home , so the only thing at stake in your apartment is the down-payment.Dont be a puppet of "The Man!" Don't feel that you have to own a home at all. Fight the power!
Yeah, I had done this process. In recent times, I purchased condos from Ottawa. This is most wonderful in Canada. This purpose only, I had taken apartments from there. Also, I can get huge amount when I sell this apartment in online. Indeed, the residence rate never decreases than rise.
did anyone else unconsciously read this comment in a russian accent?
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