Experienced monkeys, I've been a long time lurker and now I need your wise advice.
Goal: 3-4 years of experience to get MBA business schools">M7 MBA and/or MBB
Background:
-Engineering undergrad graduating at the end of the year
-Project management w/ top 3 Oil & Gas (e.g Shell/Exxon/Chevron)
-Project Management w/ consulting engineering firm
-3 years of part-time experience in "finance" (mutual funds) while studying full time
-GPA: 3.4 at a "non-target", we don't really have this target concept in Canada
-Lots of curriculars, pro-bono strategy consulting, sits on the board of directors of two small non-profits
I am aware that GPA is considered somewhat low (some would argue not too bad in STEM, I hated what I was studying)
MBB before MBA: almost impossible given my kind of "profile" if we listen to what most guys on WSO would say (confirm?), it has been done in the past here in Canada (more competitive in the US)
I've been more than overachieving at every single place that I passed by except school due to a lack of interest (let's say I am an A employee but a B+ student)
Now I have some options/offers. Out of the following, which 3-4 years experience is best to reach MBA business schools">M7 MBA or to get into MBB beforehand:
-Engineering at top 3 Oil & Gas
-Accenture SI (best would be the strategy group I know, could hustle to make the switch)
-Technical sales at top 3 Oil & Gas
-GE Leadership Program (either Commercial or Engineering)
-Sales at Procter & Gamble or equivalent
I know that I am comparing apples to oranges, I am very versatile and always willing to get new experiences. I will choose whatever is best to get into MBB (pre or post MBA) or MBA business schools">M7 MBA.
My first choice would be to take the consulting one (hence Accenture) even if it's not strategy. Am I wrong?
Please advise !
I was in a very similar position as you except USA.. ended up having to decide between GE Engineering Program or Accenture SI. Ultimately I decided on what I thought I would enjoy doing most and the type of people I wanted to work with. My ultimate goal is also M7.
Thanks for your reply red_barge. Do you find that either of the two options that you have are aligned with your objective (M7 MBA) ?
As a current MBB-er (I've also interned at GE for what it's worth), my advice is that Accenture is absolutely the last place you want to be at out of those 5 options. Even if it was Accenture Strategy, let alone SI.
Reason is that MBB values big brand names (so that they can later market you as an expert) and industry experience (so that you really might potentially have some valuable expertise to add to the project team), which a GE program or the Big Oil will get you, but Accenture will not.
What's even more important, someone coming from Accenture is going to be viewed as a B (or even C) type person by both the M7 and the MBB. Doesn't matter if its true or fair, but that's how things work. Someone coming from GE or Big Oil, on the other hand, is going to be viewed as an A person who just happened to work in a different industry out of school.
When choosing between Big Oil and GE the question is which industry are you more interested in. Which one of the GE BUs are we talking about by the way? As far as I know, they hire LDPs into specific industry (i.e. GE Aviation Commercial, or GE O&G Engineering et cetera). Anyhow, GE's LDP is absolutely top-tier and will get you to both M7 and MBB (post-MBA) very easily. Big Oil will get you there as well. My personal bias is against the O&G industry since there's a big risk it's going to decline in the long run, and I'd rather get experience in something that's going to be growing.
When choosing between engineering (whether at GE or Oil) and commercial/sales, my inclination would be to go commercial. You're still going to develop a very good technical expertise in your industry and the product that you're selling, but at the same time obtain a more rounded business skill set. Not sure what does technical sales do at Exxon et al. (how technical is selling oil products? I thought they were more of a trader kind), but if it was an O&G service company or an equipment manufacturer, same goes for them - you're going to get a good technical understanding as well as practice business skills.
CPG sales is also okay-ish, but that depends greatly on the type of work you're going to be doing. These companies also have leadership programs, and everybody knows that. Working as a "regular sales person" is not going to be nearly as glamorous or valued as opposed to a rotational leadership development program. Also it is pretty boring. I have a friend who did a year in sales as a part of the Mars LDP, and it's pretty dreadful. You're managing low-brow sales reps that sell your candies to the department stores. If you want to do CPG, marketing is the place to be, or at least an LDP so that you can rotate out of sales once you get all the basic experience in it that you need. Sales can be interesting at a Director level or so, when you're dealing with strategic issues, not managing goblins.
TL;DR:
Ranking (for M7->MBB in the future):
1) GE CLP. Also see if you can do a rotation at the strategic marketing team (which is where I've interned and subsequently got offers from 2 of the MBBs) - this is optional, the program itself is very good and will get you anywhere, be it GE leadership positions, M7, MBB or whatever.
2) GE Engineering LDP - unless you absolutely love the O&G industry, then 3) O&G Engineering | O&G Technical Sales - depending on what kind of technical sales are going to be doing (not sure what that means at an actual O&G company as opposed to service/equipment provider) ... 10) CPG Sales, especially if it's a rotational program or if they promise you can rotate to a marketing-ish role at some point ... 99) Accenture
Thanks for your input Qayin. While I understand your POV about GE Leadership programs being a good fit for M7 or MBB (industry experience), I am actually surprised that you rank Accenture so low.
I also undestand your point about MBB considering tier 2/3 consultants as B/C class candidates but is that really the case? I keep reading from MBB/ex-MBB that top25% of Accenture or Tier2 is definitely MBB caliber.
The reason that lead me to consider Accenture (even if it's SI) is to learn about consulting for the first year and try pushing to make the switch to the strategy group. I feel that overachieving for 3-4 years there would add value since it is already in the consulting industry.
While F500 engineering is very competitive and demanding, I feel that MC at top10 firms pushes someone's limits even more in terms of quantity/quality of work oriented to post-MBA/senior positions.
I would love to hear other monkeys' opinion on this !
1) IT consultants (that includes SI) are barely considered consultants at all. And by "barely" I mean "not really", by anyone in the industry. People might even take offence if you compare them to IT consultants. These jobs have literally nothing in common, besides the fact that you do projects for clients.
2) There are very good tier-2/boutique consulting shops (i.e. AT Kearney, Strategy&, LEK, Deloitte S&O...), and for them the attitude really is that some of the people are MBB caliber and that they often do interesting/relevant work. Accenture (and this time I mean its Strategy practice) is tier-3, like IBM/KPMG. Those are viewed like places for people who couldn't get in any of the above and generally do measly work.
Put these two together and you will get why I've ranked IT consulting at Accenture so low. When someone at MBB or M7 looks at your CV, instead of a "wow that's cool" factor (that a GE LDP or Big Oil would get you), it's going to be "jeez, he probably sucks balls". Do you need that?
Also, "being already in the consulting industry" is not really that big of a deal, this is not banking. At the post-MBA level MBBs would rather prefer you to have some top-tier industry experience. The attitude is that we can teach you to do consulting our way, and industry experience makes you more valuable to the team and more marketable to the clients.
I mean, it is theoretically doable (Accenture SI -> bust ass -> Accenture Strategy -> bust ass even more -> M7 or more likely top-15 -> bust ass -> MBB), but it's going to be so much harder and less likely than if you go to GE or Big Oil.
Which industry/BU is your GE LDP offer from? They have some pretty cool things going on in the high-tech segment now (e.g. what they call "industrial internet", also renewables). Not sure if they offer LDPs in those though. Out of the traditional GE industries, Aerospace and Healthcare are probably the hottest. Power Gen and Automation also good.
Take Oil if you want to do O&G in the long term (be it at MBB or later when/if you exit back to the industry), O&G engineer experience is going to be priceless in this case. I personally am biased against O&G because I see it as high-risk in the long term - there's a good chance that the industry is going to decline sharply by 2030's-ish, and those are going to be yours (and mine) prime earning/career years. Too many potential factors that could make oil obsolete by that time. I might be wrong though, but I'm just risk averse I guess. This is why I actively avoid being staffed on O&G projects.
Feel like I could perhaps add something to this thread as someone who works for Accenture Strategy.
OP, If your only goal is to get into MBB (and going to an M7 school is just a way of getting there), then I actually agree with Qayin that there is limited upside in joining Accenture ahead of some of your other offers (given that they are industries that you are interested in).
Just as Qayin said, imagine you sit within one of the MBB firms and need to sell your consultants to clients. Having someone with previous hands-on experience in an industry + consulting capabilties learned from a top tier strategy house is extremely attractive as opposed to having moved from SI/Management Consulting at another consulting company. By getting industry experience, yes, you would be pidgeonholing yourself somewhat, but if you goal is to get into MBB, it is the right way to go.
Now, I do not agree wholeheartedly with Qayin's portrayal of Accenture. There is plenty of good work going around within the company (even within the strategy space) and I would say that some of our top-performers have gotten into great MBA schools and later on moved into strong industry jobs or an MBB. It is no surprise that graduates who come into Accenture were perhaps looking to get into an MBB firm and ultimately failed, but when you are comparing very qualified candidates in the first place, you still end up with a solid employee base.
I agree that some of the bad projects at Accenture Strategy is work that an MBB would never touch, but Accenture is slowly getting more and more interesting work and as a top-performer, you actually get to work on some very high-profile strategic projects - the challenge is to become one of those lucky few.
If your end goal had been a good post-consulting job - I think Accenture would still have been worth your consideration. Our office has recently seen a handful of colleauges move into MM PE, corporate strategy/development at large corporates and other senior positions in industry ahead of interview candidates from MBB/Deloitte/PwC.
I'm sure that you're right, but I should reiterate that I was talking about perceptions. Perceptions are not always correct or fair, but they do shape outcomes. And the prevailing perception at the MBBs is what I've described.
And don't forget that the OP's offer is from SI, not strategy. Sure he might be able to switch (operating word being "might"), but that means that at the very least some of his experience is going to be useless, not to mention the "IT consultant" stigma.
Yes, I completely agree with that.
Even within Accenture, which is famous for technology and outsourcing, the people in the Strategy practice have a tendency to view "IT consultants" in a negative way (which is ironic but understandable to a certain degree)
I just wanted to convey the message that if the ultimate outcome is industry, working hard at Accenture (SI --> Strategy --> MBA (or no MBA depending on personal preference) --> industry) might not be as prestigious as MBB, but still a good option.
If the end goal is MBB I completely agree with your comments in your previous posts.
The thing that I learned the most about Accenture out of this thread is the fact that their strategy group is suffering from the overall presence of the firm in the IT sector.
I would be curious to know what do you guys think of Accenture strategy vs Roland Berger (in the US, I know that in Europe they compete with MBB in some countries) ?
I have no idea what's going on with RB in the US, as I'm myself in Europe. They indeed used to be pretty strong here, but lately (last 3-5 years) have been loosing ground and seem to be going through some kind of trouble period. They were almost (on the verge of) acquired by Deloitte a couple years ago, but didn't go through with it. Lost a large number of top consultants and partners to other firms (incl. MBB) in some countries as well.
I do not think I can give an accurate view on the Accenture Strategy vs RB discussion as I am not too familar with the specific work that RB does (I've heard its a lot of CDD for PE firms).
Now, does the strategy group suffer from the overall "IT branding" of Accenture as a whole? Yes and No.
No: Accenture has extremely strong links with FTSE100, S&P500 etc clients all over the world through its existing IT and outsorcing deals. This provides a direct channel to senior employees of client organsations, providing the opportunity for Accenture to sell its MC/Strategy type services. The brand name "Accenture" is associated with IT, but it is still a very recognisable name which provides reassurance to clients.
Yes: From an employee perspective: Because Accenture has a large association with IT, some people in the MC/Strategy practice do sicken of being asked in interviews if they are glorified IT consultants. It is not the biggest deal in the world, but it often takes a detailed explanation of what you actually do on a day to day basis for interviewers to be reassured that your work is actually management consulting (like Qayin said, perception is everything). Also, from a comp and performance management perspective, the organisation is structured to tailor for the IT practice since they are the vast majority of the employees. I personally think the pay gap of someone in MC/Strategy vs IT should be higher as the former usually put in more hours a week, are usually better qualified and have higher margin on the projects.
From a strategy practice perspective: In my mind, in order for Accenture to legitimise itself in the "Strategy space", it needs to do more interesting work. If the top client companies rely on MBB, Accenture needs to be able to show some credentials to compete for the work - even if this means working with smaller clients (which is something people are trying to do). However, because Accenture Strategy is not a standalone company and has other group-interests (selling large scale implementation work) there's not really an abundance of super-interesting projects. They do exist, but there needs to be more.
Overall, I do think Accenture Strategy can establish itself as a good consulting firm in the future, but that will not be possible unless the company's mentality, internal processes and incentives are more aligned with a traditional consulting firm, not an IT Outsourcing company.
Qayin you are right about the perception that MBBs have towards tier3 consultants vs top industry candidates, this is also the feelling that I had when speaking with a few McK consultants.
One thing that I've noticed though is that top industry candidates (F500 12 hours a day + weekends because I wanted to 100% secure a full-time offer (which I did).
In Canada, this is how I would classify typical new grads quality (this is based on my close circle and also what I see on LinkedIn, again in Canada):
GE Leadership progams or equivalent: above 3.2 GPA, 1to2 internships in a good eng./commercial firm (doesn't have to be F500), few ECs Big Oil: same as above Accenture Strategy or Tier3: around 3.5 GPA, 1to3 F500 internships, many ECs (VP Student Assoc., etc.), Startups/ pro-bono consulting Tier 2: above 3.5 GPA, Academic Awards, 1to3 F500 internships, study or experience abroad, lots of ECs (President of MC Club,etc.), Startups/pro-bono consulting Tier 3: a stronger Tier 2 candidate
Now during the first 3 years of their career, I would say that an eng. employee will work 50hrs/ week on average while top10 MC would be around 65hrs. The kind of work is also different, while in engineering it is technical most of the time, in MC it demands a broader range of skills (technical, presentation, varierty of indsutries, etc.). For these two reasons, I generally rate MC candidates (with
Fellow Canadian here. I actually happen to have friends in all those roles you are currently considering.
Out of all the them, the two sales ones would provide you the least "ideal" experience for M7 and MBB.
Both M7 and MBB love engineers and and I would rank GE higher than big Oil (also oil in canada is shrinking right now)
Accenture is great and even thought you are in SI I hear Accenture is soon going to have a staffing model where all juniors can be staffed on projects across diff practice (friends at Accenture told me this, not sure about the details though).
There really isn't a "best" choice that will guarantee M7 and MBB after. It really depends on which one you actually enjoy the work and people and which one you think you can make the most out of. So if you love engineering, take GE. If you know you want to focus on energy later in consulting, take big Oil. I would maybe shy away from the sales roles but they are still good brand names.
At the end of the day rmb you are picking from a bundle of good options and if you put solid work into it you can make any of them shine in M7/ MBB apps.
Hope this helps!
I have to disagree pretty strongly with this. GE CLP is an excellent program for M7, people do it all the time (CLP -> top MBA). And though it is "commercial" it's not just "sales" in the stereotypical "used car salesman" way. B2B sales at high-profile technical companies are different, you need to understand the product and your client's industry technical stuff very well, you do a lot of project management, you deal with market analysis et cetera.
I'm speaking from both my experience in GE and later in MBB. I.e. in one of my projects we've worked for one of the largest F500 electric equipment manufacturers (GE's direct competitor, though it's not a major business for GE). As one part of project we did organizational design for their commercial function (sales/business development people) - org.structure, target setting, motivation systems, resource reallocation, that type of thing. So naturally I had a lot of interaction with their sales people and got a pretty good picture of what they do. These guys have to be really sharp technically, most (if not all) have engineering backgrounds, and they have to understand both their equipment (in that case, electrical) and their assigned client segment (i.e. O&G or Power or Mining etc) - and I mean all the processes from the engineering POV to be able to suggest appropriate solutions, track all new projects to scout for opportunities to sell their equipment, participate in the installation once the equipment is sold (project management) et cetera. They have a P&L as well as operating margin responsibilities, and once you get a couple promotions you have a number of these sales people under you, and you're responsible for the overall profitability, so you need to allocate, train and motivate your people properly to generate cashflow for the company. And you do still have clients of your own (usually the most important accounts), so client relationship building is very important as well. All these skills are very valuable to consulting (especially if you specialize in the same industry). They also have the potential to earn a fuckton of money if they're successful, as well as to rise to the top executive positions in the organization - these companies are very much sales-centric, unlike i.e. CPG that is marketing-centric or consumer tech that is product-centric. Engineers do rise to the top as well, but usually after switching to a commercial position (which is pretty common).
On top of that, GE's CLPs get great executive exposure, they get training (including class-based) in all sorts of business skills, and the branding is very strong. You can do rotations in marketing and/or even strategy-type positions in addition to the obligatory sales rotations.
I probably sound like I'm a recruiter for GE by now, but it's just an honest advice.
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