Canadian Undergrad: Queen's vs UBC
Hey guys,
I have offers from both Queen's Commerce and UBC Sauder Commerce. I hope to major in finance and international business at both schools, with the ultimate goal of IB after school. Which school would give me the better chance at internships during each of my summers (starting the summer after my first year)? And which school is regarded as better on Bay Street/WS? Lastly, which school would give me a better chance at living internationally (London, Sao Paulo, NY, etc.)?
Also, tuition is irrelevant (parents paying) and general atmosphere/school spirit is also pretty much a non-factor.
P.S. If you don't think I should attend either school, I am open to taking a Gap Year (as I am graduating a year early) and applying to other schools the following year. If this is the case, please recommend which schools I should apply to the following year, both international and Canadian. Just not Ivey/Western.
Don't know much about Canadian colleges from personal experience, however when looking through the WSO forums from my own college search I have seen that Queen's would appear to be a much better choice. They have a lot of alumni doing ib while being one of the top choices in Canada. They do have OCR for a variety of banks and you shouldn't be at a disadvantage from going there. Also from what I have seen UBC's business program isn't that strong and isn't really on the radar for ib.
Can't post links because of limited post count but you can look at Queen's recruiting organizations and job placement on their website.
Don't take a gap year and go to Queen's - it's the best available choice given Ivey is crossed out
Don't take a gap year. Go to Queens definitely if you want to be on Bay.
Also why not ivey?
Because Western is just too bad of a school, I feel like it I can transfer to Ivey after two years from a better uni like Queen's or UBC. Imo, if I did do Ivey AEO at Western, then that's two years at an incredibly mediocre school with almost no standards of admission (I got in without filling in an application, just sending grades).
Also, could you guys elaborate on why no gap year? I would be doing productive stuff (volunteering in Central Asia). And why Queen's over UBC? I don't really want to be on Bay.
Heres a couple points:
1) Not sure about how you got Western AEO without filling in the application, but you are much better off going to Queens. Queens is top 2 in Canada when it comes to finance recruiting, UBC is more like an accounting school unless you can get into the PMF program. Your chances of "ultimate goal" in IB will drastically decrease in UBC, just trust me on this.
2) You shouldn't take a gap year because nobody gives a shit if you volunteer in central asia.
3) If you don't want to be on Bay, where do you want to be? Wall street? Canada West Coast? Foreign cities like London? If you want to do investment banking and don't want to be on Bay Street, given the schools you have chosen (Queens and UBC), your chances are close to less than 1%. UBC PMF probably sends 3-4 people outside of Canada and Queens probably 3-5 every year. We are talking about 400 + students in each school. Your selection of school should not solely be based on these factors.
4) A word of advice for Ivey transfer: Every year there are only 1-2 people transferred to Ivey that actually do well in recruiting. The rest of the people that get good jobs are the ones that were AEOs, made networks during their first/second year at Western, and killed Ivey grades.
5) I will make an wild but reasonable assumption that you are some asian kid that lives in vancouver who cares too much about how their friends and parents think about what universities you go to. Yes, UBC and Queens are indeed better in rankings. But from what I know, Western AEO + Ivey is by far the best route to take if you want IB and work outside of Canada. That being said, if you are a true gem (top student everywhere you go), then it wouldn't make a difference about what school you go to. You will find success in UBC, Queens, or Western. However, if you are just an above average student, you will find it useful to have any help your school provides.
Because a gap year sucks, and you'll be a year behind all yoru friends. Just take a year off after your graduate. Also i think that you have no clue what your talking about (though you make think you do) and you need to do some more research. Stop reading Macleans, and go to Western or Queens if you want to work in finance. They have the strongest rep and alumni network by a mile.
What about the UBC PMF program? It seems pretty strong. Would a top 10% UBC Finance undergrad (not in PMF) really be at a disadvantage when compared to a top 10% Queen's Finance undergrad (not in QUIC)?
Just from my experience, at that of people i have talked to, Queen and UWO pretty much dominate bay. UBC might have better presence in Vancouver banking, although i'm not sure of the scene out there.
I would say in terms of presence on the street it goes: UWO/Queens >> Toronto >>>> Schulich / Laurier >> UBC / Others
From what I've seen, UBC PMF is the single strongest program in Canada. But I have no idea how admission there works and if it risks you just being stuck in "regular" UBC. Safer bet, if that is a risk, is Queens.
Single strongest in terms of what?? Sauder is good and all, but definitely not top.
Placement. It's basically 100% at BBs and lots of buy side shops too. And again, this is just for PMF, not Sauder generally.
UBC PMF takes only 6-7 students from about 100ish applicants. It is highly competitive and difficult to get into, I can't stress this enough. It is a risky bet but if the odds are in your favour, you're far better than the rest of the east coast schools.
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Here's another observation for QUIC (Queen's Investment Club)/WIC (Western Investment Club)/PMF (UBC's Investment Club):
QUIC consistently sends people to GS NY, CPPIB and other big 5 canadian banks/pension funds for their portfolio managers and junior analysts. About 12 people will get portfolio manager position and 6 gets junior analyst position. I have heard that they can be biased towards who they select as analysts, but either way, most of Queen's TOP jobs go to QUIC people. Most of these jobs are in Investment Banking. Another note is that other than GS NY, Queen's do not have any other recruitment outside of canada that come consistently.
WIC also have 12 analysts (junior year) and 6 analysts in sophomore year. From what I know, they have almost every BB and EB from west or east coast recruiting at the school. 2 have gone to silverlake partners this summer, which is a major breakthrough for elite PE funds to take Canadian undergrads. WIC is almost all investment banking as well with the exception of a few PE slots. More than 2/3 of the analysts will place outside of Canada.
PMF accepts around 5-6 people per year and if you read their resumes. They get significant S&T recruiting in the States. Usually 4 people will end up outside of Canada with most interning at BB S&T (IBD is less popular, but not unusual) and 2 will stay in some regional investment bank known in Vancouver.
tldr: QUIC and WIC are good for investment banking internships while PMF is more S&T oriented. Also, QUIC and WIC produce have analysts in their investment club and most importantly, the students in their respective bschools that DID NOT get into these elite finance clubs will do better on average for finance recruiting than UBC Sauder students.
Really solid post, well done. Could you talk about the "bias" in the QUIC clubs? And it seems that none of the clubs you mentioned have positions for freshmen, is that just an across the board thing and freshmen aren't expected to join clubs until second year, or are there different clubs for them?
I can tell you that QUIC is VERY political, and the exec is less about valuation skill and more about who knows who etc...
many of these clubs you start as a researcher / non exec for freshman --> 2nd year is analyst level -->3rd PM / Sector head --> 4th exec
From what I have heard, QUIC people take kids that came from their previous private schools. I am not directly involved in this so someone else can chime in on this matter.
The truth is, the selection process for these clubs are all more or less subject to bias. There are only so many spots but always more applicants applying for them. It's more like real life - no matter how hard you try, there are always going to be those that work less+better connections that get in or get ahead of you. Even if you get into these clubs and go to an interview with a BB, there will be kids in their freshman year getting offers because their dad's best friend is some MD. That being said though, you learn to play like political game early on and it is possible to get into these clubs through merit.
I think Ryerson has a lot of 'untapped' talent.. Good luck picking a school
A current Bcomm student at UBC chimed in on one of my old threads, link here for OP(username is moltke, and the post is near the bottom): http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ubc-vs-waterloo-help
To summarize his post, UBC (non PMF) has finance opportunities in the APAC region that eastern schools (Queens,Ivey, etc..) don't have.
Umm...yes and no. UBC is comprised of chinese students whose parents are likely to own/have connections to some kind of corporation of their own (non big name firms). Lots of these students go back to APAC regions to work for their parents or some unknown small shop. Same could be said about SFU
If you want to work in APAC region in investment banking, Ivey is your best shot since they have a strong alumni presence there and also an additional campus in HK.
Seems like a really flawed argument. The same can be said for Queens/Ivey, most kids are from Toronto and have parents/connections on Bay Street.
@"Lucky Charms" Alignvest is a great place. An analyst from QUIC is interning there this summer from what I know. There are good firms like Altas in Toronto that are great for internships as well. Never heard of BX in Toronto, but I doubt it will have much of a presence here in Canada (at least for advisory and PE arm)
The QUIC analyst is going into his third year, so he will do just fine in recruiting. Also no US MF recruits at Queens, so I highly doubt he has his hopes up for that.
@"KimchiNoodleSoup" Yeah I've checked out the team profile of Alignvest - seems excellent. And really, you doubt BX Toronto is going to take-off? Apparently they want to source and execute Canadian deals out of Toronto - seems legit...
http://blogs.wsj.com/privateequity/2014/04/28/blackstone-goes-to-canada…
@"Lucky Charms" It's fine they do that, but the main guy is not nearly as well-connected as say firms like Altas or Acasta Capital- they have founding partners/managing directors of Onex at the top. It should be a decent option for sell-side analysts in canada though.
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canada UBC Sauder vs Queen's Commerce (Originally Posted: 07/06/2015)
I understand this is a primarily American website, but I see little alternative for us Canadian monkeys.
I have the opportunity to attend either UBC Sauder or Queen's University for Year 2 in the BCom program. I am interested in M&A Investment Banking (cliche, I know), and I'm not sure which school I should go for.
UBC Sauder - I got into a competitive commerce course, meant to set you up for Sauder's infamous PMF program, where you essentially become a research analyst and PM for a $6m+ fund. The PMF program basically walks you into Wall St (PMF alumni all appear to have very healthy careers). Although I have not entered the PMF yet (you apply at end of Year 2), I think I'd stand a decent chance (5-7 openings, ~100 applicants)
Queen's Commerce - One of the best, and well-known finance schools in Canada. They regularly place graduates on Bay St and Wall St. They do not, however, offer selective courses like UBC Sauder, which I think is a downside; less opportunity to shine. That being said. Queen's sets you up well in the Canadian capital markets unlike Sauder, and opens more doors with regards to graduate school.
Does anyone have any opinions on these two schools?
~ A brand new chimp
Sorry to break this to you, but Sauder does get a good amount of recruiting for non-PMF students. This includes all of the major Canadian banks as well as most of the BBs including Goldman Sachs. Link: https://www.facebook.com/UBCFinanceClub/posts/666824436683379?stream_re… Link: http://www.sauder.ubc.ca/~/media/Images/Careers/Icons/Newsletter-Novemb…
Less than 3 in Canada and US? Here is a list of (non-PMF) Sauder students either interning or graduating this yr with FT placements for front-office banking positions worldwide:
Goldman Sachs (New York): http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=206831423&authType=name&authTok… Goldman Sachs: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/gillianong Goldman Sachs: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/mmilhousen BlackRock: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/zhangcolin Morgan Stanley: http://www.linkedin.com/in/lucasgoh J.P. Morgan: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jasonlihx J.P. Morgan: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shane-neetichow Citigroup: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/tonyliu1 TD Securities: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/yeunglouisa BMO CM: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/chriscmwong National Bank: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rajanvirahuja CIBC WM: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/gclyne BMO CM: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/nikitaarora RBC CM: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/teddyleung RBC CM: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/danmuller2 RBC CM: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/julie-shin/19/957/955 Macquarie: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/zhangxinlu HSBC: http://hk.linkedin.com/in/zhuangkevin HSBC: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jacquelineberris Merrill Lynch: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jenniferjordache Merrill Lynch: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pthompson093
Here's a good piece of advice, don't ever make assumptions until you check your facts.
Sincerely, QC grad and brother of a Sauder student, who is one of those listed above.
Man, why do you do this to me?
Okay so UBC does get decent non-PMF recruiting. At the end of the day, the key takeaway is that it comes down to the individual. Almost any decent university in Canada will provide you with good opportunities within Canada (out of all of the people you provided, less than 3 were outside of Canada). So if anyone wants to have a good chance for US banks, go to Queens or Ivey or try your luck with UBC PMF.
QComm, not even a doubt in my mind. Sauder PMF is a maybe for you, they advertise PMF being a program highlight but they are fairly selective about their hiring and there are no guarantees. Another big point is network effect. More alumni in IBDs and closer proximity to Toronto gives you more of an opportunity create a network and increase your chances of getting hired. I'm not saying UBC is a bad school, but the QComm offering is just simply better.
I fail to see how a 5-7% chance of getting into PMF qualifies as "decent"
Do the prudent thing and go to Queens.
UBC Sauder is a great school academically, but have to agree with opinions above. Queens is better for network, proximity to Toronto.
chances of you landing a solid job from qcom > chances of you getting into pmf
replied to wrong poster, delete
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