Canadian Ibanking Discussion
There's been a lot of talk about exit opps, lifestyle, etc. with respect to US banking......but lets hear some shit about Canada.
Are the hrs alot more manageable at the boutqiues/Big 6 vs. places like NY, Chicago, etc.?
Do analysts typically get promoted after their 2-3 yr stints? How many of them actually end up staying on? Is it faster to reach VP/Director in Canada vs. US? Is comp comparable at these levels relative to the US firms?
What do the exit opps look like in Canada? Do Cdn. private equity players have a high demand for analysts?
How easy is it for Cdn. ibanking analysts to lateral over to US firms (i.e. are they looked highly upon?)
Feel free to answer as many/any of the questions above...should be interesting.
It is much more common place to get promoted to associate at canadian banks. They want to retain their talent as opposed to sending them to b-school. A good portion of the senior bankers at my firm started there as analysts.
As for speed, I think it is generally the same.
Private equity is something I'm also interested in, more specifically in the west. Obviously there are big players in T.O. such as Onex.
I've browsed through the ONEX team profiles, and those guys all seem like superstars.....it almost seems like you have to be at a top US BB or boutique with a Harvard MBA to get in....
but I still think OTPP, OMERS, Borealis, etc. are somewhat respectable...I'm also pretty interested in how receptive the smaller private equity shops would be to hiring analysts and whether theres a huge demand for fresh talent (when you get access to carry would also be something id like to know more about)
lets keep the posts going.
Yeah I don't even know if Onex recruits from Canada... seems like all their guys are from HBS, etc
Hey Yung,
Just to let you know Onex recently took someone from RBC M&A. It was recently updated on the website.
move to calgary and join a o&g PE company. they're starving for talent now that the CM have dried up!!
That's a good plan... What are some good PE shops in Calgary?
arc's would be one of the largest. you should be able to find quite a few. now that the trusts are finished, lots of money.
At most firms in Canada analysts get promoted quite easily. CIBC seems to be the exception; they don’t promote anyone without a graduate degree. Generally, there is less of a difference between a senior analyst and a junior associate in Canada. Direct-promote analysts tend to make good junior associates but then make poor director/vp level bankers. Many stall at that level. That is also the level with the greatest amount of exit opportunities.
The track from associate to the next level (title depends on the firm) is the same for Canadian bank-owned dealers and U.S. firms. The boutiques in Canada promote at a far faster rate. Title at a boutique is almost meaningless and I would not recommend anyone go to a boutique.
It is not easy for Canadian analysts to lateral into U.S. firms but there are precedents. Frankly I don’t think the Canadian analysts have as rigorous a time as bulge bracket analysts. Canadian banks would generally be viewed as equivalent to U.S. boutiques by the bulge bracket. Canadian boutiques would likely not be considered at all. Even within the Canadian banks there are large differences; CIBC and RBC are (relatively) highly regarded while National would be deeply discounted.
I don’t know that much about exit opportunities; I haven’t been looking and I haven’t seen that many people leave for PE or hedge funds at the analyst level. I have seen senior associates and junior director/vp level people leave but no analysts.
As for compensation, Canadian ibanking does not pay anywhere near their U.S. counterparts. I can’t comment on analyst compensation (too far removed these days), but Canadian associate compensation is ~C$200k for the “stub†year, ~C$230k for the first full year, ~C$275k for the second full year and ~C$340k for third year associate. Comparable U.S. compensation is dramatically higher.
I heard bulge bracket firms offices in Toronto pay like $80-90k for analysts with a signing bonus of about $15k. And bonus in the $100k-$150k range.
Agree with the base pay, although the bonus number seems out of line. All-in, analysts in US BB Toronto offices did not make more than analysts in the US last year as far as I know.
RBC and CIBC (M&A) are the top shops in Canada. Likely get any interview with any PE shop in Canada with that experience. How would you all rank the tier 1 PE shops in Canada?
I agree with you about RBC and CIBC M&A being tops in Canada.....how would the other members of the Big 6 compare?
Is it safe to say that M&A experience with any of the big banks will probably get you PE interviews?
Finally, how easy would it be to lateral from one of the other banks to RBC or CIBC M&A ? I'm assuming they would be pretty open to it?
Why would you lateral from RBC to CIBC or vice-versa...doesn't make sense to me...
if i were to rank the banks
RBC, CIBC, TD, BMO, Scotia, NBF ...and i would also add Genuity in there somewhere
general rankings are arguable as i think you'd have to compare on a sector level to make it more fair... ie., tech, industrials, mining etc
For PE, pretty much all those should get one an interview...
Sorry for the confusion....I was talking about jumping from one of the other banks (i.e TD, BMO, Scotia) to RBC or CIBC....any insight into how easy this is?
Also, do you guys think it even makes sense to jump to PE in Toronto for lifestyle reasons? I've heard the banking hrs are a lot better (i.e. can often get out by 10pm), although there will be occasional all-nighters......
banking hrs are alot better relative to the US.
Non-U.S. firm hours are FAR better than bulge banks in Canada. Hours for bulge banks in Canada are significantly better than the equivalents in NYC.
As for switching between Canadian dealers; I would not recommend it. The only compelling reasons to make a move between banks are that you are leaving with a more senior and talented team (i.e., your MD and VP go and ask you to go) or you are changing platforms (moving from ECM to an industry group or moving from a Canadian bank-owned dealer to the U.S. bulge). There is no real benefit to moving for another reason. The Canadian banks are so similar in experience and structure that there will be no difference to you. In my opinion, you likely hurt yourself in that process. If you go to a TD/BMO/Scotia out of undergrad and outperform as an analyst, you will be chosen on the best deals they have. Better to be top dog at a TD/BMO/Scotia than moving to a CIBC/RBC and get on average deals (which would happen even if you are really good; you can't bring the goodwill over from the other firms and you basically have to completely reprove yourself at the new firm).
I say focus on being the best in your group and fight to get on the best, highest profile deals. You will be more successful in the long term. Moving at the analyst level is foolish as you don't get paid enough to destroy your resume (low signing bonus and low guarantee versus moving three or four years later as an associate/VP/Director).
You make some really good points.
Just to follow-up on this: why would you lateral from one of the Big 6 to a US Bulge in Canada? Is this even easy to do given that the US BBs have so few analysts in Toronto.
Some other questions are do US BBs in Canada get alot of execution done or is most of the work done out of the NYC office on bigger deals? Also, do Canadian firms respect the US BB branches in Toronto or do they tend to prefer analysts/associates from the bank-owned dealers? I guess I'm trying to gauge where the best IB experience can be obtained.
How hard is it to lateral from big 6 summer (either RBC/CIBC block or TD/BMO/Scotia) to US bulge either in Canada or NY.
Very easy to lateral to the U.S. from RBC/CIBC but the trick will be rolling the dice when your permanent offer expires prior to full-time recruiting season.
From TD/Scotia/BMO is a little harder but no means impossible.
what about canadian firms operating within the US/ nyc in particular?
^what did you hear bonuses were for BB's in Toronto?
Slight discount to US. As I said, this is from just the people I know so I could be wrong, but I didn't hear of anyone that made more all-in in Canada than the US
I heard from this forum numbers as high as $180k canadian. But I could have been mistaken.
Everyone I know working summer US BB in Toronto is not getting that much base pay
Not base. End of year bonus. That number was quoted in the class of 07 analysts thread.
I’ll give you my perspective, which is not Toronto-centric but likely not too far off the mark. I came from the U.S. bulge, went to a Canadian dealer for a few years then went back to a different U.S. bulge firm.
Why move from Canadian bank-owned to U.S. bulge? Pay, profile transactions, global opportunities, prestige and strength of platform.
Do BB firms do execution in the Canadian offices or outsource to the U.S.? If you want execution, you can get all you can handle. Typically the smaller Canadian offices get overwhelmed with execution and have to call in reinforcements to maintain coverage and ensure we win the next deal. I know execution is an analysts life-blood and that this board caters to them more than any other group, but frankly bankers get paid for winning transactions, not for executing them (as in the guy that wins the deal makes more than the guys who execute it). The Canadian offices are ideal for this (especially as you get more senior) as our cost structure is relatively low and our revenues are high.
Do Canadian firms respect the US BB branches in Toronto or do they tend to prefer analysts/associates from the bank-owned dealers? Canadian firms almost never get analysts/associates from U.S. BB firms; they are expensive and often have better opportunities. When they do get the opportunity to hire them, the red carpet is often rolled out.
What about Canadian firms operating within the US/ nyc in particular? I would say these firms look a lot more like the U.S. boutiques such as FBR and others; middle market players. Rules that apply to them, apply to the U.S. division of a Canadian investment bank.
Anyone know how good the top american boutiques operating in TO are ex. Lazard,Greenhill in terms of pay, exit opps and dealflow?? I know Greenhill's Toronto office was just opened a couple months ago...are they any good.
hey, would you fellow canadians consider a move back? I'm in London working with a monster boutique, have BB offers like crazy, intense educational background. Is it worth it to come home, or am I just flushing money down the toilet?
I think it is worth it to make a move from the tier2 canadian shops to an RBC/CIBC. Make sure to get into their M&A group. It will do wonders for your experience and exit opportunities. You'll have real shots at the top PE shops and great deal experience. Pay won't be top of the line, but well worth the sacrifice. A lot of people from the tier 2 shops have moved in the last 2-3 years to RBC/CIBC.
Interesting question about moving back and leaving money on the table. I wrestled with this a lot when I moved home too. Having had the experience of working for a BB overseas I was worried about the quality of people, compensation and lifestyle trade-offs. My experience was that the top 50% of the people at the Canadian bank-owned dealers are world-class bankers and are comparably as smart and talented as the middle 80% of BB bankers. The lifestyle is considerably better with a caveat; I chased the biggest, most challenging deals and therefore my life sucked. Generally however lifestyle is substantially better.
Compensation was an issue as Canadian banks pay a fairly steep discount to global comparables. If you can get the lifestyle arbitrage then you're laughing as cost of living is demonstrably less expensive in Canada (i.e., even with lower pay your standard of living will be the same or better).
In my opinion, the best play is to use one of those "BB offers like crazy" to do a short stint in London followed by a move back to their Canadian offices. The BB banks in Canada pay global scale but work you harder than a Canadian bank-owned dealer (probably more like your London boutique).
Hey guys,
Any insights into the PE arms of the Canadian banks? (ie. Size, dealflow, ease of transfer from IBD to PE, comparison with other Canadian PE firms)
How about hedge funds in Canada? I know Goldman has a branch set up in Toronto, same with Fortress but haven't heard anything else...
Canadian IBank Salaries (Originally Posted: 08/18/2006)
Does anyone know the base salary range + bonus for analysts and associates at Canadian IBanks, specifically at RBC, TD, Scotia and HSBC (yes i know this isn a canadian bank) . ALso the ranges for global banks with offices in Canada such as ML Canada, Goldman Sachs and perhaps if i'm lucky some salary ranges for boutique firms on bay street and Calgary. Thanks so much.
Yokonomo, you don't belong in finance. Have fun in marketing.
Canadian IB scene V.S American IB scene (Originally Posted: 04/15/2015)
Dear WSO:
How much different is the Canadian IB(Toronto office) scene from the American IB scene(NYC or West coast) in terms of salary, hours, and lifestyle? Is it pretty much the same?
Thanks!!
bump
bump!
Junior levels (Analyst / Associate) very similar in terms of hours and comp. Obviously answer is highly dependent on shop, team and, MOST importantly, who you actually work for. If anything, I feel like Canadian's have an (unjustified) inferiority complex.
However, U.S. headline deal size is usually bigger which adds to sex appeal.
Heard some U.S. Banks were paying well above street to attract talent. Be careful of some banks. BAML is notorious in Toronto for not extending offers from its summer program. Some U.S. offices are considered "satellite" and don't get the attention they deserve. If you are going to do finance in Canada, would recommend Toronto / Calgary (Energy) and stay with a large Canadian bank or well-known independent (GMP, Canaccord Genuity)
Thanks for the insight!
Canadians in IB; how is the route to get into IB different in Canada compared to our Southern neighbors? (Originally Posted: 02/06/2016)
Is it still relatively the same path (i.e., MBA, etc)?
Bump
It's relatively similar, but there are some small differences, mostly at the associate level. Most banks do not require a MBA for direct promote (I know this is changing in the US as well) so a lot more analysts end up staying (there are also far fewer buy-side opportunities). So there's much less recruiting at the associate level (at my bank, the associate class was generally ~1/4 of the analyst class). Otherwise, the process is generally a bit more fair as banks cast a slightly wider net in terms of schools they target (there are also far fewer colleges in Canada) and the value of knowing someone is pretty limited.
Just to make sure I understand this correctly, you're saying if you get in as an analyst you can move to associate without an MBA? Also, as for recruiting, where do they get these analysts? Do they get them from non-finance degrees as well?
Meaning there's less nepotism/cronyism in general, or that nepotism/cronyism isn't as effective as it would be in the US?
Canadian Office I-Banking Hours (Originally Posted: 10/26/2011)
What are the hours like per week in Canada at the: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary offices at one of the big six Canadian banks?
Friend works at CIBC WM in IBD (M&A). He works 8-12 most days, and at least a 9-9 one weekend. I guess that works out to around 90 hours. He's told me that he's had to sleep under his desk quite a few nights though - so 90-100 to play it safe.
Another friend worked as a BMO Associate and would put in virtually identical hours - though he might come home at 9 (instead of midnight) a few nights during the week - but he'd still work at least one day (if not 2) on the weekends.
From what I hear, Canadian BBs are similar in hours and compensation to our southern neighbours.
80 hr weeks and sunday is the new monday. thats whythe 2 yr lifespan for the majority of monkeys.
How's the vancouver office hours?
i didnt kno monkeys only live 2 years...is it just for chimps or like other monkeys too?
Canadian IBanking Compensation (Originally Posted: 03/29/2007)
I have been searching through the forum and have not been able to find good comp numbers for the Canadian IB industry. Does anyone have any numbers (salary/bonus) for Canadian IBanks as well as what the differences are between the Big 6 bank owned dealers, US and foreign firms and Canadian boutiques (Canaccord, GMP, Genuity) in terms of comp levels for analysts, associates and VPs?
Leave Canada. Thats the best help you will get anywhere.
Lol
For analysts, The big 6 all pay around 60-65k + bonus. I think NBF pays a bit higher and Genuity pays a bit higher. The US BB's pay 85-90k + bonus.
Really? NBF? I wouldn't have thought.
How about top Boutiques? or MM? or Lazard/Greenhill TO? any clue?
and what is range of bonus?
thanks
Most of the Canadian banks are on 70k prorated for this summer.
NBF has to pay more to attract talent. They paid more last year, but may now just be at 70k like other banks.
Associate comp?
You also forgot the part where you can get a decent 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto for like $1500/month, not $3500.
Canadian IB Hours (Originally Posted: 03/16/2012)
So i've been looking at "a day in the life of" for an analyst that is posted on the TD website in their careers section. http://www.tdsecurities.com/tds/content/Car_InvestmentBankingAnalyst1?l…
My question is: Is it realistic to expect to work the 13 hour days that they are suggesting on their website because Toronto seems to be more of a tier 3 finance hub? or is this merely an example of a really light day and the hours are comparable to NYC firms
If anyone working in Toronto or has knowledge of IB in Canada could shed some light on the topic that would be great.
Also, I am curious of Toronto vs. NYC salaries for analysts, associates etc.
What's a "Tier 3" finance hub...?
I have several friends in Canadian IB (at the analyst and associate level). The hours are as brutal as NYC - between 85-110 hours a week. While the market may not be as large as New York, analyst classes are significantly smaller.
That said, TD has the reputation of being the "easiest" and least "hardcore" of the charter banks - so you may see a slight break in hours there. Keep in mind that TD (at least reputationally) also has the worst IB of the big banks up here.
thanks for your insight, I forgot to add the link to the site that I was looking at, i'll add that in now.
"Keep in mind that TD also has the worst IB of the big bangs up here."
Not sure you can conclude this, it's really group dependent. They killed it this past year for equity financings.
A 13 hour day is pretty chill though...however, I doubt banks want to advertise their employees working until 1am on the company website.
Voluptates dolor et ut maiores. Accusantium modi aut et reiciendis quas eligendi nulla rerum. Et similique tenetur dolorum dignissimos voluptatem blanditiis. Illo velit ratione error et sit beatae quis.
Eos cumque et error omnis aliquam. Est sit eveniet similique nam et provident voluptas. Eos et unde fuga sint. Accusamus animi eos neque ipsam dolorem dolor. Ipsam labore itaque aliquam voluptatum nihil. A nisi ad molestias officiis qui voluptas et.
Perferendis in at consequatur blanditiis quos. Dignissimos minima delectus cum qui eligendi ea.
Atque porro aut sed ut magni in voluptatem. Accusamus cum delectus illo reprehenderit. Velit cupiditate vel eum vel esse dicta. Nobis et labore consequuntur magni dolores perspiciatis a. Amet magnam nemo at. Sunt adipisci aut dolor ipsa nostrum aut libero.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quod at quaerat in cupiditate. Quas explicabo magnam omnis nam. Et fugiat necessitatibus maxime exercitationem consequuntur quisquam qui necessitatibus.
Commodi nesciunt aut veritatis dolores est et vero ut. Eum ut omnis sint perferendis vero id exercitationem. Facilis in qui et numquam velit quam.
In pariatur nesciunt et porro vel repellendus aliquid. Maxime quia aliquid quis sit beatae consequatur rerum. Fugiat doloribus temporibus quia et voluptate consequuntur. Dicta recusandae blanditiis dolorum non. Vel unde corporis ratione nulla.
Eum qui et et minima. Et culpa aliquid distinctio quae vel porro dolorum.
Suscipit voluptatem nihil suscipit. Veniam eos delectus consequatur quas et repellendus aspernatur. Totam sint similique tenetur quidem quo suscipit ullam incidunt. Doloremque repellat animi unde soluta blanditiis consectetur tenetur. Eum id similique quaerat velit blanditiis consectetur culpa.
Eos molestiae quo sed aut et. Omnis temporibus veritatis soluta sint nam dolorem. Nostrum accusantium illum iusto incidunt autem veritatis. Nisi quia est laborum qui.
Placeat est omnis voluptatum perferendis adipisci sit culpa possimus. Voluptatem voluptate aut nisi quas eveniet officiis natus dolores. Aperiam occaecati dolore quia. Magni expedita esse et suscipit autem. Quo error cum alias est et illum enim.
Aliquid iure fugiat amet veniam saepe ut dolor. Inventore soluta dicta expedita et velit. Vel eos asperiores enim repudiandae aspernatur hic voluptas. Et accusantium exercitationem at nihil quod quis minus. Sequi consectetur necessitatibus eos dicta magni fugiat saepe.