Canadian Ibanking Discussion

There's been a lot of talk about exit opps, lifestyle, etc. with respect to US banking......but lets hear some shit about Canada.

Are the hrs alot more manageable at the boutqiues/Big 6 vs. places like NY, Chicago, etc.?

Do analysts typically get promoted after their 2-3 yr stints? How many of them actually end up staying on? Is it faster to reach VP/Director in Canada vs. US? Is comp comparable at these levels relative to the US firms?

What do the exit opps look like in Canada? Do Cdn. private equity players have a high demand for analysts?

How easy is it for Cdn. ibanking analysts to lateral over to US firms (i.e. are they looked highly upon?)

Feel free to answer as many/any of the questions above...should be interesting.

 

It is much more common place to get promoted to associate at canadian banks. They want to retain their talent as opposed to sending them to b-school. A good portion of the senior bankers at my firm started there as analysts.

As for speed, I think it is generally the same.

Private equity is something I'm also interested in, more specifically in the west. Obviously there are big players in T.O. such as Onex.

 

I've browsed through the ONEX team profiles, and those guys all seem like superstars.....it almost seems like you have to be at a top US BB or boutique with a Harvard MBA to get in....

but I still think OTPP, OMERS, Borealis, etc. are somewhat respectable...I'm also pretty interested in how receptive the smaller private equity shops would be to hiring analysts and whether theres a huge demand for fresh talent (when you get access to carry would also be something id like to know more about)

lets keep the posts going.

 

At most firms in Canada analysts get promoted quite easily. CIBC seems to be the exception; they don’t promote anyone without a graduate degree. Generally, there is less of a difference between a senior analyst and a junior associate in Canada. Direct-promote analysts tend to make good junior associates but then make poor director/vp level bankers. Many stall at that level. That is also the level with the greatest amount of exit opportunities.

The track from associate to the next level (title depends on the firm) is the same for Canadian bank-owned dealers and U.S. firms. The boutiques in Canada promote at a far faster rate. Title at a boutique is almost meaningless and I would not recommend anyone go to a boutique.

It is not easy for Canadian analysts to lateral into U.S. firms but there are precedents. Frankly I don’t think the Canadian analysts have as rigorous a time as bulge bracket analysts. Canadian banks would generally be viewed as equivalent to U.S. boutiques by the bulge bracket. Canadian boutiques would likely not be considered at all. Even within the Canadian banks there are large differences; CIBC and RBC are (relatively) highly regarded while National would be deeply discounted.

I don’t know that much about exit opportunities; I haven’t been looking and I haven’t seen that many people leave for PE or hedge funds at the analyst level. I have seen senior associates and junior director/vp level people leave but no analysts.

As for compensation, Canadian ibanking does not pay anywhere near their U.S. counterparts. I can’t comment on analyst compensation (too far removed these days), but Canadian associate compensation is ~C$200k for the “stub” year, ~C$230k for the first full year, ~C$275k for the second full year and ~C$340k for third year associate. Comparable U.S. compensation is dramatically higher.

 

I heard bulge bracket firms offices in Toronto pay like $80-90k for analysts with a signing bonus of about $15k. And bonus in the $100k-$150k range.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

I agree with you about RBC and CIBC M&A being tops in Canada.....how would the other members of the Big 6 compare?

Is it safe to say that M&A experience with any of the big banks will probably get you PE interviews?

Finally, how easy would it be to lateral from one of the other banks to RBC or CIBC M&A ? I'm assuming they would be pretty open to it?

 

Why would you lateral from RBC to CIBC or vice-versa...doesn't make sense to me...

if i were to rank the banks

RBC, CIBC, TD, BMO, Scotia, NBF ...and i would also add Genuity in there somewhere

general rankings are arguable as i think you'd have to compare on a sector level to make it more fair... ie., tech, industrials, mining etc

For PE, pretty much all those should get one an interview...

 

Sorry for the confusion....I was talking about jumping from one of the other banks (i.e TD, BMO, Scotia) to RBC or CIBC....any insight into how easy this is?

Also, do you guys think it even makes sense to jump to PE in Toronto for lifestyle reasons? I've heard the banking hrs are a lot better (i.e. can often get out by 10pm), although there will be occasional all-nighters......

 

Non-U.S. firm hours are FAR better than bulge banks in Canada. Hours for bulge banks in Canada are significantly better than the equivalents in NYC.

As for switching between Canadian dealers; I would not recommend it. The only compelling reasons to make a move between banks are that you are leaving with a more senior and talented team (i.e., your MD and VP go and ask you to go) or you are changing platforms (moving from ECM to an industry group or moving from a Canadian bank-owned dealer to the U.S. bulge). There is no real benefit to moving for another reason. The Canadian banks are so similar in experience and structure that there will be no difference to you. In my opinion, you likely hurt yourself in that process. If you go to a TD/BMO/Scotia out of undergrad and outperform as an analyst, you will be chosen on the best deals they have. Better to be top dog at a TD/BMO/Scotia than moving to a CIBC/RBC and get on average deals (which would happen even if you are really good; you can't bring the goodwill over from the other firms and you basically have to completely reprove yourself at the new firm).

I say focus on being the best in your group and fight to get on the best, highest profile deals. You will be more successful in the long term. Moving at the analyst level is foolish as you don't get paid enough to destroy your resume (low signing bonus and low guarantee versus moving three or four years later as an associate/VP/Director).

 

You make some really good points.

Just to follow-up on this: why would you lateral from one of the Big 6 to a US Bulge in Canada? Is this even easy to do given that the US BBs have so few analysts in Toronto.

Some other questions are do US BBs in Canada get alot of execution done or is most of the work done out of the NYC office on bigger deals? Also, do Canadian firms respect the US BB branches in Toronto or do they tend to prefer analysts/associates from the bank-owned dealers? I guess I'm trying to gauge where the best IB experience can be obtained.

 

Very easy to lateral to the U.S. from RBC/CIBC but the trick will be rolling the dice when your permanent offer expires prior to full-time recruiting season.

From TD/Scotia/BMO is a little harder but no means impossible.

 

I heard from this forum numbers as high as $180k canadian. But I could have been mistaken.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 
zooblar:
Everyone I know working summer US BB in Toronto is not getting that much base pay

Not base. End of year bonus. That number was quoted in the class of 07 analysts thread.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

I’ll give you my perspective, which is not Toronto-centric but likely not too far off the mark. I came from the U.S. bulge, went to a Canadian dealer for a few years then went back to a different U.S. bulge firm.

Why move from Canadian bank-owned to U.S. bulge? Pay, profile transactions, global opportunities, prestige and strength of platform.

Do BB firms do execution in the Canadian offices or outsource to the U.S.? If you want execution, you can get all you can handle. Typically the smaller Canadian offices get overwhelmed with execution and have to call in reinforcements to maintain coverage and ensure we win the next deal. I know execution is an analysts life-blood and that this board caters to them more than any other group, but frankly bankers get paid for winning transactions, not for executing them (as in the guy that wins the deal makes more than the guys who execute it). The Canadian offices are ideal for this (especially as you get more senior) as our cost structure is relatively low and our revenues are high.

Do Canadian firms respect the US BB branches in Toronto or do they tend to prefer analysts/associates from the bank-owned dealers? Canadian firms almost never get analysts/associates from U.S. BB firms; they are expensive and often have better opportunities. When they do get the opportunity to hire them, the red carpet is often rolled out.

What about Canadian firms operating within the US/ nyc in particular? I would say these firms look a lot more like the U.S. boutiques such as FBR and others; middle market players. Rules that apply to them, apply to the U.S. division of a Canadian investment bank.

 

hey, would you fellow canadians consider a move back? I'm in London working with a monster boutique, have BB offers like crazy, intense educational background. Is it worth it to come home, or am I just flushing money down the toilet?

 

I think it is worth it to make a move from the tier2 canadian shops to an RBC/CIBC. Make sure to get into their M&A group. It will do wonders for your experience and exit opportunities. You'll have real shots at the top PE shops and great deal experience. Pay won't be top of the line, but well worth the sacrifice. A lot of people from the tier 2 shops have moved in the last 2-3 years to RBC/CIBC.

 

Interesting question about moving back and leaving money on the table. I wrestled with this a lot when I moved home too. Having had the experience of working for a BB overseas I was worried about the quality of people, compensation and lifestyle trade-offs. My experience was that the top 50% of the people at the Canadian bank-owned dealers are world-class bankers and are comparably as smart and talented as the middle 80% of BB bankers. The lifestyle is considerably better with a caveat; I chased the biggest, most challenging deals and therefore my life sucked. Generally however lifestyle is substantially better.

Compensation was an issue as Canadian banks pay a fairly steep discount to global comparables. If you can get the lifestyle arbitrage then you're laughing as cost of living is demonstrably less expensive in Canada (i.e., even with lower pay your standard of living will be the same or better).

In my opinion, the best play is to use one of those "BB offers like crazy" to do a short stint in London followed by a move back to their Canadian offices. The BB banks in Canada pay global scale but work you harder than a Canadian bank-owned dealer (probably more like your London boutique).

 
Best Response

Junior levels (Analyst / Associate) very similar in terms of hours and comp. Obviously answer is highly dependent on shop, team and, MOST importantly, who you actually work for. If anything, I feel like Canadian's have an (unjustified) inferiority complex.

However, U.S. headline deal size is usually bigger which adds to sex appeal.

Heard some U.S. Banks were paying well above street to attract talent. Be careful of some banks. BAML is notorious in Toronto for not extending offers from its summer program. Some U.S. offices are considered "satellite" and don't get the attention they deserve. If you are going to do finance in Canada, would recommend Toronto / Calgary (Energy) and stay with a large Canadian bank or well-known independent (GMP, Canaccord Genuity)

 

It's relatively similar, but there are some small differences, mostly at the associate level. Most banks do not require a MBA for direct promote (I know this is changing in the US as well) so a lot more analysts end up staying (there are also far fewer buy-side opportunities). So there's much less recruiting at the associate level (at my bank, the associate class was generally ~1/4 of the analyst class). Otherwise, the process is generally a bit more fair as banks cast a slightly wider net in terms of schools they target (there are also far fewer colleges in Canada) and the value of knowing someone is pretty limited.

 
mtnmmnn:
It's relatively similar, but there are some small differences, mostly at the associate level. Most banks do not require a MBA for direct promote

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, you're saying if you get in as an analyst you can move to associate without an MBA? Also, as for recruiting, where do they get these analysts? Do they get them from non-finance degrees as well?

the value of knowing someone is pretty limited

Meaning there's less nepotism/cronyism in general, or that nepotism/cronyism isn't as effective as it would be in the US?

 

Friend works at CIBC WM in IBD (M&A). He works 8-12 most days, and at least a 9-9 one weekend. I guess that works out to around 90 hours. He's told me that he's had to sleep under his desk quite a few nights though - so 90-100 to play it safe.

Another friend worked as a BMO Associate and would put in virtually identical hours - though he might come home at 9 (instead of midnight) a few nights during the week - but he'd still work at least one day (if not 2) on the weekends.

From what I hear, Canadian BBs are similar in hours and compensation to our southern neighbours.

 
CDNmonkey:
For analysts, The big 6 all pay around 60-65k + bonus. I think NBF pays a bit higher and Genuity pays a bit higher. The US BB's pay 85-90k + bonus.

Really? NBF? I wouldn't have thought.

 

You also forgot the part where you can get a decent 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto for like $1500/month, not $3500.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

What's a "Tier 3" finance hub...?

I have several friends in Canadian IB (at the analyst and associate level). The hours are as brutal as NYC - between 85-110 hours a week. While the market may not be as large as New York, analyst classes are significantly smaller.

That said, TD has the reputation of being the "easiest" and least "hardcore" of the charter banks - so you may see a slight break in hours there. Keep in mind that TD (at least reputationally) also has the worst IB of the big banks up here.

 

"Keep in mind that TD also has the worst IB of the big bangs up here."

Not sure you can conclude this, it's really group dependent. They killed it this past year for equity financings.

A 13 hour day is pretty chill though...however, I doubt banks want to advertise their employees working until 1am on the company website.

 

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