Big 4 Valuation Career (entering, compensation, exit opps, etc.)

So I've been lurking on this forum and searching quite a bit on info regarding Valuation, Big 4, and CFA. I've read some good info, but I had a few questions I was hoping to get answers for.

Quick Background:

Accounting Grad student

Late 20's

Will work for Big 4 audit after graduation

Level II CFA candidate

My questions are:

1.) With CFA and ASA exams passed, good performance, and CPA license, is it reasonable to expect to move from audit ---> valuation in a Big 4 firm? If so, would it be more difficult to be promoted in the same firm, or would I have to jump to a different Big 4?

2.) What sort of valuation work will I be doing in a Big 4? I've heard conflicting info on this board. Some say the work is very varied, while others says it's all good will impairment and PPA work.

3.) From what I've seen in this board exit opps include: Corp Development in industry, Hedge Funds, P/E firms, and Boutique IB's. How long should one stay at a Big 4 to get the necessary experience to make the switch? In other words, are there any benefits of getting out after a few years versus staying quite a long time?

4.) Audit compensation is pretty well known ($50k first yr staff and so on), but I was wondering what the compensation for a 1st year Valuation Associate looks like at a Big 4? 5 years down the line?

5.) Finally, I'm just curious if anyone knows just how good the quality of valuation work is at a Big 4. Has anyone left and seen a drop off in talent? Or in contrast, has anyone made the jump to a firm that makes you feel like you're out of your league?

Thanks in advance guys/gals/monkeys......

 

1) Potentially but not a regular occurrence. Valuation groups recruit separately from audit groups, and actually don't have many auditors/CPAs any more (in my experience). Having CFA and ASA might help.

2) Almost all PPA and goodwill impairment. There're also some tax-related valuations. Depending on the structure of the firm, you might get a little more variety, but this is usually almost all of the work. On the flip side you can get a lot of varied industry experience.

3) I assume you'll be a sr. associate, and the exit opps/mobility are lesser as you get older from my experience. A common exit opp is to middle-office valuation roles on the buyside, especially PE. I would advise to leave as quickly as possible if you want to do finance. I have seen all of the exit opps you mentioned, but middle and back office is much more common than front-office.

4) First-year associates in large markets was roughly 60k when I started, sr associate and experienced hire comp is much more variable. Manager/Sr Managers as well are varied. Comp for non-partners isn't that great at the Big 4 as a rule. Overall, hours/morale/comp balance was pretty rough when I was there.

5) I look back on the work we did, and I realize it was pretty mediocre. There's a distinct lack of practical finance experience within the Big 4 since very few have ever worked for banks/financial institutions. There were some pretty major gaps in the institutional knowledge of within our group, for example ignorance about basic elements of how structured products or leveraged finance worked in the real world. I felt the same about the work by other Big 4 firms we reviewed (sometimes they were even worse), and they're a big step better than the next tier of accounting/consulting firms in terms of their work (D&P, 2nd-tier accting firms).

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

I don't have too much credibility to add, but I've done a lot of research about the Big 4. This would also be good to ask at goingconcern.com seeing how it's an accounting website. I can however give you a bit of advice towards:

1.) It's very reasonable to expect to move from audit to valuation, if you ask for it. Just say that you're interested in the work that they have been doing and ask if you can help participate in it. Also, the promotion will remain towards work performance and time in. Big 4 are well structured (Sort of like the military) and what I hear is it's basically every 2 years is a promotion (Performance can make it go faster). Jumping to a different Big 4 would not speed this process up.

3.) I asked my professor this same question (Worked for Deloitte for 8 years and got his Masters in Finance while there). He said if you want to make the jump from the Accounting world to the Finance world, after 2 years Big 4 experience would sound about right. I'd say anywhere from 2 - 4 would be about right. Don't stay too long, learn all you can in the first few years, but once you see that you're spinning your wheels. Jump ship.

This is just from what I've learned while searching forums and speaking with my accounting professors.

I think that we are all clinging to a great many piano tops...
 

Thanks for the replies guys. It's interesting about not staying too long in Big 4 valuation. On the audit side it's definitely the opposite until you hit Sr. Manager.

Kenny_Powers_CFA, any practical tips on how to stand out in that group? Any 3rd party/outside training or books/publications that might be useful in bridging that knowledge gap you mentioned in Question 5?

Also, in regards to the network at the Big 4 you were at, did it help you get your current job? (I know you mentioned it's a small world out there, so feel free to ignore this question if it's too revealing).

 
Best Response

not trying to call you out, but it is NOT reasonable to expect to move from big 4 audit to valuation/FDD/TAS (most difficult to jump from audit to valuation). it is possible, but your best route is either to get out of audit right away, or spend around 2-3 years in audit and then make the jump, typically to a different firm. you can switch within your own firm, but you better have very high ratings, connections, or leverage (i.e competing offers or partners at the firm really like you) because there is no way a big 4 firm is gonna train a mediocre person for 2 years to be an auditor, only to let them change practices where they will once again need training and development.

also, the skills acquired through working as auditor might be relevant in some ways to those practice groups, but the work is very very different. I have been attempting similar moves and got the question from a recruiter at a competing big 4 firm, "what is your experience in valuation or TAS?"

 

What you mentioned about the reluctance of retraining an auditor makes sense. I was only trying to get a sense of how valuable passing the CFA and ASA exams/curriculum would be. If anything, I would imagine that commitment could serve a signal I'm interested in the field and have gathered SOME type of credibility without having to go out and get an MBA.

Also, I understand how important the network is in making the switch, so I don't think it's a common practice to do by any means. I just thought it's doable.

 

my post was more directed towards ekim.

i think it is 100% doable. I'm trying to do it right now (working with a recruiter at another firm), and have seen several people make the jump at varying levels. it is just absolutely incorrect to think it is a natural transition. it's difficult to determine the value of passing those exams, but i'm sure it would help support your cause. for now, know accounting inside and out, pass the CPA right away, and when you start work keep your ratings very high.

 

Yah I agree it's not a natural transition by any means. What kind of reception have you been getting from the recruiter? Also, would you mind sharing how you got in touch with him/her (i.e from a contact, networking event, plain old cold call email, etc.)?

 

dropped a resume online based on a posting on their website. when doing this it will help if the other parts of your resume are strong (school, GPA, extras, etc.). the recruiter has been very helpful and has submitted my information to the managers/sr managers associated with several openings. problem is getting those people to take a chance on an auditor. in a better job market this would be much easier, but that's not reality in 2011.

 

Moving within Big 4 firms is definitely possible. Although I'm probably a rare case, I was able to move from the back office to our M&A advisory group. While in the back office, I was assigned to a project that involved a rather senior advisory partner and he pretty much asked me if I wanted to join his group and the rest was history...

 

Anyone have any thoughts on when to try to make the switch? I was originally shooting to work in audit for 2 years, but it looks like 3 might be more realistic.

I guess it depends on the economy too though. I've had my eye on job postings for the last year or so, and the credentials to apply seem to be getting less stringent over the last 6 months or so (1+ years vs 3 years).

Also, if valuation is my goal, would it be worth it to go to a smaller shop for a year and then try the Big 4 again? Something like Grant Thornton or Duff & Phelps?

 
mexicant83:
Anyone have any thoughts on when to try to make the switch? I was originally shooting to work in audit for 2 years, but it looks like 3 might be more realistic.

I guess it depends on the economy too though. I've had my eye on job postings for the last year or so, and the credentials to apply seem to be getting less stringent over the last 6 months or so (1+ years vs 3 years).

Also, if valuation is my goal, would it be worth it to go to a smaller shop for a year and then try the Big 4 again? Something like Grant Thornton or Duff & Phelps?

If Valuation at the Big 4 is your end goal, sure. Otherwise stay in the Big 4. The perception of a D&P or a Grant Thornton outside the accounting world is (deservingly IMO) far below that of the Big 4.
There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

i think a better question would be which would be better experience to get into banking (...and then pe..) because it's pretty tough to make the move to pe directly from big4.

I think valuation would be better because you'd get modeling experience and also the valuation reports you write have some resemblence to offering memorandums.

These are the two main skill sets I leveraged in my banking interviews when I made the transition from big4 valuation to banking (and then eventually to pe...)

 
jon757:
Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice... I have almost 2 years experience with a Big 4 TS Valuation group and am working towards my CFA. Given I do well on my GMAT, what do you think my chances are of getting into a top MBA school, in particular London business school? Do you think staying one more year and getting promoted to senior would improve my chances than moving to a corporate development/M&A analyst position in industry? Thanks in advance.

Unless you have IB experience, you probably need more than 2 years work experience to have a competitive resume for B-School (European B Schools especially like candidates with more work experience) Take the GMAT now, work for another year, and apply then. That way, you'll have four years experience by the time you start classes.

 

I don't claim to be an expert on Big 4 TS practices. I have no exposure to Big 4 TS and I'm only a junior in college awaiting to start my IB summer analyst position, but I'll give my 2 cents based on what my friend's current TS internship entails.

From my understanding, you'll understand on an extremely deep level the due diligence and valuation work that's needed to make the deal go through. In terms of due diligence, I think that during an M&A transaction the investment bank dumps a bunch of client files and data into a data room and the Big 4 firm ensures that everything is correct. You'll become an expert in auditing and verifying that this information is correct, and the outcome of your analyses may affect the purchasing agreement. In terms of valuation, I hear that the Big 4 firm uses extremely detailed valuation models -- they're the ones that calculate how much things like goodwill and brands would be valued at. A TS experience will give you extreme insight into the intersection of where accounting and the law meets transactions.

Banking on the other hand allows you to participate right in the middle of the transaction. You'll be playing quarterback with buy/sell-side parties, lenders, investors, accounting, and law firms. You are the main force that compels a transaction to take place.

So in short, a TS experience if you want to be the expert on using accounting and law regulations to value things, an IB experience if you want to get well-rounded knowledge of the transaction process.

*EDITED for grammar.

 

I would take big 4 TAS, it's an understatement to say that wealth management is not growing in europe, plus I know a few persons that did this gtp in wealth management and I heard it really sucks aka you really don't learn anything, you don't have exposure to clients etc.

I don't work in IB so I can't really speak for the prestige of BIG 4 TAS, but from my understanding it's a legitimate place to start, and you have a good shot at IB down the road. You don't really have any exit opps in wealth management, so I wouldn't choose that unless you're 100% sure you want to go down that road.

To go through ur 3 points, from my understanding UBS wealth management you have (much) better hours, 0 exit opps vs. decent exit opps with BIG 4 TAS , and the salary I don't really know, I suppose you if you stay in wealth management vs. staying in BIG 4 you theoretically have more upside in wealth management if you become a relationship manager and get a lot of clients, but now is certainly not the best time to start a career as a swiss wealth manager.

Also for international transfers, you'll have a shot at going to singapore as it's becoming the main hub for private banking. I don't know about australia, but I know that most swiss banks are forbidding their wealth management employees to go to the US at the moment (with all that happened to Swiss banks and UBS in particular), so working in wealth management at UBS to eventually move to the US is not very realistic in my opinion :).

Asatar:
On number 3, they will contact previous employers for confirmation that you worked there when doing the background check (usually after you've signed the contract) and may contact any references you provide.
That's what I thought would happen. Thanks for the confirmation.
 

Any thoughts on #2 anyone? Is there anyone who actually made this switch? I thought of one more question. So, when we perform a BEV analysis, we make sure that the projections are objective and of market participant view. Is this the same in ibanking or not really?? I am trying to bridge the gap between my experience and what you guys do in ibanking so that I can explain how my skill-sets are relevant. Do you guys ever use the option pricing model to value a company?

 

Not sure how this works in the US but I've seen it done in Toronto. Having said that, guys in Valuations here have their CA (more comprehensive and difficult to obtain than CPA) and generally a CBV (not sure if the designation exists in the US). I think there is a more common transition to mid-market PE from Big 4 Valuations. I would think the key would be to keep in touch with the bankers that you work with on the deals. Transaction Advisory might be a good second option within the Big 4 though...

BayStreetBoy
 

Very doable... definitely not as much of a 'well-trod' path, but certainly within reach.

Honestly, with all the shit that's talked on these boards about target schools and working for THE Goldman Sachs, if you actually look at a lot of PE funds sites (using it as a proxy for 'success') their analysts come from all over. Sure there's a ton of guys from IBD, but there are also consistently guys and girls who have backgrounds that people on these boards would write-off as "never gonna break in". I guess my point is, not everything is going to happen in the most optimal way for everybody. If that's you, work with what you've got and grind it out...eyes on the prize.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 
BepBep12:
Very doable... definitely not as much of a 'well-trod' path, but certainly within reach.

Honestly, with all the shit that's talked on these boards about target schools and working for THE Goldman Sachs, if you actually look at a lot of PE funds sites (using it as a proxy for 'success') their analysts come from all over. Sure there's a ton of guys from IBD, but there are also consistently guys and girls who have backgrounds that people on these boards would write-off as "never gonna break in". I guess my point is, not everything is going to happen in the most optimal way for everybody. If that's you, work with what you've got and grind it out...eyes on the prize.

That may be true at the more senior level but at the associate level I've seen 90%+ IBD analyst experience and most from BBs. This is for medium to large sized funds.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.
 

I don't know how it works in NYC, but in London it may happen. Just check efinancialcareers for reference and you will find a lot of openings that are looking for people from Big 4 TAS/CF/Valuation with their ACA (CPA equivalent I think) to join as associate. Once, during and interview at Deutsche Bank, I was also told that the only way to break in as an associate was with a top MBA or after 3/4 yrs in Big 4 and with your ACA (or equivalent). Obv. this was more common years ago when PE were massively recruiting banking analysts and these banks needed people to refill their associates classes and it used to be a common path in 90s (just check Andrew Donovan at EVR or Luca Ferrari at Greenhill or Luca Pietrantoni at Morgan Stanley or Ferruccio Rossi at Ferretti Group) Finally, if you use linkedin and google you will find some people who made the switch and you can understand how they did it.

About the HR thing, they will contact your current HRs only after you have signed a contract to check that you have worked there as stated on you CV. They will not contact them before (personal experience).

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

What are the banking analyst needs like in the west coast(LA/SF primarily)? From what I can gather from limited sources, there were some lay-offs at the senior level but not so much at the analyst level.

Any insight would be appreciated. Enjoy your weekend.

 

Why don't u try getting into audit and then internally transfer to the advisory department?

Anyways, audit does suck (trust me, I've been there for 2 years) but Big 4 name does carry some weight if you have no better options right now.

For me, I did audit for two years in 1 of the 4, and then move to another 1/4 in the advisory department without going down a level.

 
overmind:
Why don't u try getting into audit and then internally transfer to the advisory department?

Anyways, audit does suck (trust me, I've been there for 2 years) but Big 4 name does carry some weight if you have no better options right now.

For me, I did audit for two years in 1 of the 4, and then move to another 1/4 in the advisory department without going down a level.

Well again that's where this uncertainty comes in. Wouldn't I have a more marketable skill set for Advisory/IB/CorpFin if I was a Valuation analyst? As opposed to an Audit associate?

I would have the CPA in both cases, maybe even the ABV(For the valuation job)? Even for there Valuation practices, the Big 4 want 2+ years audit experience for internal transfers, but I'm assuming that they'll take someone with 2 years val experience in as a senior but send the audit guy in as a 1st year analyst.

 

I'd go with audit. I just quit Big 4 audit after 1.5 years and during that time was able to transfer to advisory (hard to do). I just landed a job in business development / finance role in the exact type of company I was targeting. They appreciated audit for one reason - they know you are able to work your ass off and put in long hours & they recognize the name. Other than that, I had to teach myself about the industry I was targeting, financial modeling, etc.

Audit is awful - I will testify to that. But, it can lead to some great places (not sure I think FP&A is the best place to go).

 

Do not do audit. MistaBooks said it himself, the transfer to advisory was hard to do (1.5 years). Also, from what I've gathered from the Val guys at KPMG and E&Y, the workload is "audit support heavy." I personally could not see myself running goodwill impairments for the audit guys all day, or reaffirming what they already mostly know through support valuations.

Working for a boutique IB/val shop in val gives you the opportunity to internally transfer to IB if you want a bigger challenge. Plus the diversity in workload is much more attractive than in a big 4 val department. PM me with any questions, very interested to hear what you do.

 

Just one follow up question. Is there any advantage to try making this move in the fall when campus recruiting is happening, the winter when there are less full-time applications, etc?

 

I used to work in Pub Fin and just got an offer for Big 4 Valuation.. Honestly I would stay away from Pub Fin entirely..

Most people that have worked in pub fin and are looking to get out would say the same. Valuation may not be "banking" and may not have the same exit opps, but there are virtually no exit opps for Pub Fin except to other Pub Fin related things. Pub Fin is super niche and specialized

 

Your Valuation offer will prepare you better for a PE/Corpdev role (think about the job function for a moment...) And contrary to popular belief, Big 4 places surprisingly well into MBA if you have a solid story to back it up.

Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 

Valuation on clients who are large public companies, you will need to be somewhat of a market junkie, as valuation will depend on many market metrics/comps. For smaller companies and startups, not so much...

For corp dev, a background in valuation is necessary; to prove your "value add" in a corp dev role, you will need to be more industry specific with your valuation skill set (i.e. our company is health IT/med-device specific, so I'm very narrow with my valuation metrics when performing company comps).

 
  1. Difference is at Big 4 you have a lot of audit clients for which you'll do valuation review work (essentially reviewing the valuation by D&P and other B4 firms).

  2. I'd say B4... better brand name, larger reach. A

  3. Can't speak to D&P since I was in B4. They obviously do more actual (non-audit related) valuation work compared to the B4, so I think the work is better there. But the brand name, not so much.

 

Thank you so much for your reply jckund! Really appreciate it.

What is usually the exit opportunity for a valuation analyst/associate? Do you happen to know what the minimum requirement for an entry level position at these valuation departments? How feasible is the jump from Big 4 Audit to Big 4 Valuation or D&P Valuation?

Thanks!

 
  1. Exit is usually Corporate Development or PE in their valuation groups... I got a significant number of headhunter emails for the latter during my time ther.

  2. Not sure what you mean by minimum requirements, but both groups hire people right out of college at some schools so there really isn't much of a background needed. You'll do all of your learning on the job, although knowing basic modeling (DCFs/Comps) really helps.

  3. I've seen it happen at PwC but surprisingly not as often as it should happen. We didn't have many switch into Valuation from audit, although I know there was a huge list of interested candidates. Shoot me a PM if you're in the NYC area.

 
  1. At the Big 4 a good time of your work will be re-creating valuation analyses performed by firms like D&P and Houlihan. As in, they will give you a report and you go in and re-create it, and write questions as to why certain assumptions were chosen.

  2. Doesn't matter, but I would argue that going into D&P for valuation will be better for anything other than corporate exit opportunities.

  3. Duff over Big 4 within finance. Big 4 for corporate accounting roles.

 

I have a friend who recently joined AQR from big 4 valuation so that's definitely workable. But you need to work extra hard and constantly be on the lookout for opportunity.

You don't realize how valuable a thing is, until the second you lose it.
 
Wild Fox:

I have a friend who recently joined AQR from big 4 valuation so that's definitely workable. But you need to work extra hard and constantly be on the lookout for opportunity.

Definitely agree. During your time there, you will value a lot of assets for hedge funds. Be sure to develop some contacts with the mid level guys there and keep your ear out for job openings.

Pennies from JcPenny
 

Not sure why you think you would be better suited for PE/VC. Without deal experience, which Big 4 valuation does not offer, your best bet to move to the buy side would be to specialize in derivative valuation, commodity valuation, etc. Plain vanilla business valuation will not get it done because it is highly academic in nature vs. what tends to be used in the trenches by I-bankers and PE investors.

ER is probably your best path IMO and not a bad career.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/company/trilantic-north-america>TNA</a></span>:

Leverage into banking and then go PE.

uhhh no... Don't listen to this tard.

I know someone who went from Big 4 Valuation directly to a HF. It sounds weird, but it is easier to try moving from Valuation to PE/HF with a lean towards HF than it is to IB.

IB is entirely deal execution so you need deal execution experience, and when in interviews the people you are interviewing against for lateral roles are actual laterals which have a skillset you can't compete with.

PE and HF interviews see people from different backgrounds and there are actual PE funds that recruit from Big 4 Audit. And all Big 4, Consultant, and IB kids are trying to get into PE which makes everyone a "career changer" and is going into a new industry. Granted, getting these interviews are NOT easy, but its doable.

 

Thanks for all the responses so far. I have accepted the offer and I am optimistic about my future exit to the buy side. I know it will be difficult, but I am confident in my abilities to pull it off. Any last opinions on exit options?

 

Zendro, I'm in the exact same position as you. Realized I wanted to get into ibanking/ PE a little too late to get an SA position so valuation seemed to be the next best option.

Are you planning to get out as soon as possible or stick around, build your network and then try to make a move?

 

Interesting, I'm hoping others like yourself are finding this thread useful. I have a pretty established plan now. Valuation for 2-3 years (enough time to build a network) ---> ER ---> HF/Buy Side. I may replace or prolong one of the steps with an MBA. I'm not necessarily in a rush to leave valuation, as it actually sounds pretty interesting, but I bet it will grow stagnant in 2-3 years, and so that seems like a good time horizon. Personally, I have little interest in IB. I really value my time off work and as I'm involved in entrepreneurial endeavors. ER and maybe even HF might still crush me on hours but I'm definitely aiming to not have that happen. Corp Dev may be an appealing option at some point as well. Anyways, ya from my pov, valuation seems to be super flexible and with lower hours. I'm really grateful for the position now. I know it takes some luck and networking to get out but I'm not really that worried about that. I know how to get along. Furthermore, I intend to get my CFA during the 2-3 year stint, which would be significantly harder in an IB type role, and arguably more useful to have in trying to get to the buy side. I'm sure IB has its prestige, but the CFA is such a standard. This is my young, but researched opinion. Hopefully, someone else can validate (or criticize) my thought process.

 

The important missing piece of information is what your job would be at the hedge fund. If it's a middle/back-office job, it may still be a push/preferable to the Big 4 firm; if you'd be the kitchen manager less so.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

I was wondering the same thing myself. Initially, I was told I would have to interview for the spot, but I know of some fellow interns (in audit) who received their full time offers in advisory within my big4 without even having to interview.

 

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98.9
8
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
9
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
10
numi's picture
numi
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”