Choosing Michigan (Ross) over Wharton - shrewd? retarded?

High school senior here. (Yes, I know I should be out getting laid and not be on this website. Bear with me here).

I want to go to Michigan for undergrad for several reasons: I love the school, have many friends there, feel more comfortable there, and care a great deal about college sports (and want to follow them for the rest of my life). Most importantly, I think the entire atmosphere and feel of the place -- more laid-back, etc. -- would suit me much better than Wharton.

Cost of attendance is similar. From looking through the career reports of both schools, it looks like Ross places nearly as well as Wharton into banking and consulting. I'm confident that either would let me get the job I want come graduation, assuming I do well.

What I'm wondering is: how much will the slight "downgrade" in prestige matter after graduation? Could attending Michigan instead of Wharton mean that I will have less chance at private equity recruiting, a slightly tougher time with top b-school admissions, etc.? Will I be missing out on a really powerful network?

Basically, I am asking if making such a choice is a stupid thing to do.

Any input appreciated. Thanks very much guys.

 

If you were looking at it strictly for career-potential, then yes this decision would be retarded. However, there's more to college then "omg how can i get into IB". It sounds like you would be a lot happier at UMich and Ross is a top-notch program. It places very well into IB and Consulting. You would probably do a lot better at a school where you were comfortable and familiar rather than some random school anyway.

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.
 

^ DISAGREE

You can get a very good job from either school, but the focus of one is very different from the other - Michigan is a good school, but Wharton has a much more extensive network within finance.

What is it you want to do?

Get busy living
 

Just one more consideration for the network: chances are, a lot of people entering Ross are thinking the same way you are so you'll probably get along with people at a school you like more. This has professional and non-professional advantages as well. Its worth less having IBD/consulting all stars in your class if you don't really fit in or get along with any of them. Plus, it'll make your overall experience a lot more fun.

 

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

@ UFOinsider: I'm not sure what I'd like to do long-term. Something in business, but I don't know anything more specific than that. (Tentatively private equity, but who knows really).

I am confident that I would like to do either banking or consulting out of undergrad, though. Can't beat the options that they open up later on in a career.

 
sycamore:
Thanks for the thoughts guys.

@ UFOinsider: I'm not sure what I'd like to do long-term. Something in business, but I don't know anything more specific than that. (Tentatively private equity, but who knows really).

I am confident that I would like to do either banking or consulting out of undergrad, though. Can't beat the options that they open up later on in a career.

Take the same approach with schools........
Get busy living
 

This is a no-brainer. Wharton is far and away the BEST undergrad program for Finance. It may not seem fair or right, but the Ivy stamp really does have it perks over other schools. While Michigan may have very good networking opportunities, they don't even compare to Wharton (just wiki some of the big name financiers out there - I swear to God it's 90% wharton and HBS).

That's not to say you couldn't achieve any desired career path at michigan, you'd just make it "easier" on yourself if you went to wharton.

 

If cost of attendance is the same, you really ought to go to Wharton.

It's the equivalent of the Hawks signing Joe Johnson for as much money as Miami paid LeBron James. Sure Atlanta likes the guy and he's been there as they developed into a playoff team. Doesn't mean he needed to be paid that much money.

Likewise, sure Michigan has its plusses, but isn't the clear-cut most-respected BBA program in the world. You carry your degrees with you for life, and Wharton will at some point in you life open the door to opportunities you wouldn't really get anywhere but HYPS.

 

I'd never make the same decision, but to be honest it sounds like for you the best option would be to go to Michigan and enjoy yourself. The reality is (1) yes it substantially hurts you chances of one day being in top PE etc. (don't let anyone tell you otherwise), but that (2) you'll still be fine if you get good grades coming from Ross. You'll also get laid more in college and you'll probably be one of the smarter kids in all your classes which will make it more enjoyable and give you more confidence and so forth.

To put it another way:

If you think that memories of college and becoming a prominent alumnus at Michigan who goes to games with your old college buddies for the next 40+ years and talks football/frat legends is going to make you happy, then go to Michigan. If you think that your life simply will not be complete until you have a Netjets plan and fully staffed weekend home in the Hamptons, then you'll greatly improve your chances of success going to Wharton. To each their own.

 
International Pymp:
If you think that memories of college and becoming a prominent alumnus at Michigan who goes to games with your old college buddies for the next 40+ years and talks football/frat legends is going to make you happy, then go to Michigan. If you think that your life simply will not be complete until you have a Netjets plan and fully staffed weekend home in the Hamptons, then you'll greatly improve your chances of success going to Wharton. To each their own.

The first idea of happiness sounds so much more appealing than the second one. The first sounds like genuine happiness (aka based on friendships) and the second sounds miserable and shallow.

Still you can have a great college experience at Wharton as well as a poor one at Michigan. Tough choice: Wharton does open more doors (if you look at where their grads go it's nauseating how many get into Goldman or Blackstone out of undergrad), but if you can accept that drop in future career prospects for a potentially greater college experience (which can be so, so important) I can see why Michigan is appealing. Good luck

 

Do you really want the rest of your life to be based on the fact that you want to follow some stupid college sports teams? And you'll make new friends at Wharton, assuming you have at least some semblance of social skills.

Some things you can kiss good bye: learning more advanced material during your undergrad years, getting into the buy-side straight out of undergrad, a better alumni network, a lower probability that you will actually "need" an MBA, me actually reading your resume once I get past the "education" section. Why are you going to make things harder on yourself? You can still watch Michigan games on TV, lol. Take some summer classes in Michigan your freshman year if you're so in love with the place, lol.

If someone were a musician or dancer, and got into Juilliard, would you tell them to go to Michigan? If finance and/or consulting are your passion, then you'd have to be fucking retarded to turn down a chance to study at the best undergrad business school. I've met people from economics/business programs at various top 20 schools. Nothing even comes close to Wharton as far as an undergrad business (esp. finance) education. I know I sure as hell wouldn't be where I am today if I had gone anywhere else, even say, Harvard, MIT, etc.

At the end of the day it's your life, so do what you think makes you happy. But career-wise, this is a very stupid decision, especially if costs are the same (kinda similar to a guy going to an inferior college because he wants to stay close to his high school girlfriend (in your case, high school friends and college team) - a decision that seems good at the time, but you end up regretting in the long run). What if your career doesn't go as well as planned and you end up forever blaming it on where you went for undergrad? At least if you go to Wharton, you'll never be able to say that...

 
alexpasch:
Do you really want the rest of your life to be based on the fact that you want to follow some stupid college sports teams? And you'll make new friends at Wharton, assuming you have at least some semblance of social skills.

Some things you can kiss good bye: learning more advanced material during your undergrad years, getting into the buy-side straight out of undergrad, a better alumni network, a lower probability that you will actually "need" an MBA, me actually reading your resume once I get past the "education" section. Why are you going to make things harder on yourself? You can still watch Michigan games on TV, lol. Take some summer classes in Michigan your freshman year if you're so in love with the place, lol.

If someone were a musician or dancer, and got into Juilliard, would you tell them to go to Michigan? If finance and/or consulting are your passion, then you'd have to be fucking retarded to turn down a chance to study at the best undergrad business school. I've met people from economics/business programs at various top 20 schools. Nothing even comes close to Wharton as far as an undergrad business (esp. finance) education. I know I sure as hell wouldn't be where I am today if I had gone anywhere else, even say, Harvard, MIT, etc.

At the end of the day it's your life, so do what you think makes you happy. But career-wise, this is a very stupid decision, especially if costs are the same (kinda similar to a guy going to an inferior college because he wants to stay close to his high school girlfriend (in your case, high school friends and college team) - a decision that seems good at the time, but you end up regretting in the long run). What if your career doesn't go as well as planned and you end up forever blaming it on where you went for undergrad? At least if you go to Wharton, you'll never be able to say that...

You have the rest of your life to work man - college is the best time of your life and a place that will greatly influence you, so go to a school you will love. Upenn does have a great undergrad student body but seems like michigan is where its at for you, with the friends, sports and larger body of hot girls. I mean Michigan has one of the best finance programs in the country, so I'm not sure the Julliard analogy works here, unless Michigan also has a top notch music program. You don't need to go to Harvard, MIT or Wharton to get where you want to be - sure it will get you there faster, but if you do well in Michigan you will undoubtedly get a good job after graduation. Your parents might kill you for turning down Wharton but do what you feel is the right school for you. You are smart enough to get into Wharton and you can succeed wherever you go.

 
dayaaam:
You have the rest of your life to work man - college is the best time of your life and a place that will greatly influence you, so go to a school you will love.

Yes, you DO have the rest of your life to work, unless you make it rain at a young age and retire before 40 (that's my current plan). Wharton will increase the probability of that happening. It all depends on your personality...

And I had a great time at Penn and dated some truly gorgeous girls (just as hot as anything you'd find at Michigan, but with brains to boot). Anyone who thinks you necessarily are going to have more fun at Michigan is deluded. Are there more hot girls at Michigan? Yes. But is there also more competition for them? Yes. It all depends on who you are and who you want to be. Most everyone I know ends up really liking where they go to college, regardless of where they pick (I forget what it's called, it's a concept within psychology...)

The one thing that you can know for certain, is that Wharton will provide you with better career opportunities. Declining that because of an assumption (not a fact) that Michigan will be more "fun" is retarded.

And this kid probably hasn't even gotten acceptance letters from either school...haven't decision deadlines passed? Why is this guy wasting our time?

 
alexpasch:

Do you really want the rest of your life to be based on the fact that you want to follow some stupid college sports teams? And you'll make new friends at Wharton, assuming you have at least some semblance of social skills.

Sleep with a fire extinguisher under your pillow. You're about to be flamed to a crisp by butthurt sports fanatics.

In reality just go for whichever school offers you the best deal. You don't know which that is until you apply and get any award letters offered.

 

I go to michigan, and have good friends at wharton. The competition here for banking is much thinner as compared to wharton, where everyone wets their pants over gs tmt. at ross, plenty of people want to pursue corp dev, consulting, s&t, and even things like marketing jobs. Just saying from a competition standpoint, your chances may be better at ross. although it's obvious that wharton's network and overall environment beats that of ross.

 
the magnum:
I go to michigan, and have good friends at wharton. The competition here for banking is much thinner as compared to wharton, where everyone wets their pants over gs tmt. at ross, plenty of people want to pursue corp dev, consulting, s&t, and even things like marketing jobs. Just saying from a competition standpoint, your chances may be better at ross. although it's obvious that wharton's network and overall environment beats that of ross.

I am a Michigan grad. Granted I went to the trading side, but there will be a ton of competition for banking and trading positions. That said, the recruiting at Ross is fantastic. Put it this way - I have friends from Ross who got way better jobs than friends from Wharton, and vice versa. Do well and you cant go wrong at either school.

One game at the Big House will make your decision to go to Michigan worth it.

 

1.) If you want to land a job as a proprietary trader upon graduation, Michigan has a better brand name than Penn in Chicago. People will think you went to Penn State when you say "Penn" and when you mention "Wharton", about half the traders out there will assume it was a private HS.

2.) If you can get accepted at Wharton as a non-legacy, you can probably make it into banking from Ross. If you're paying in-state tuition, I recommend saving the money and picking Ross. But that's just me. I'm the kinda guy who would try to use a coupon on The Price Is Right.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
1.) If you want to land a job as a proprietary trader upon graduation, Michigan has a better brand name than Penn in Chicago. People will think you went to Penn State when you say "Penn" and when you mention "Wharton", about half the traders out there will assume it was a private HS.

And this is exactly why you don't want to live in the midwest. Wharton it is.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
1.) If you want to land a job as a proprietary trader upon graduation, Michigan has a better brand name than Penn in Chicago. People will think you went to Penn State when you say "Penn" and when you mention "Wharton", about half the traders out there will assume it was a private HS.

2.) If you can get accepted at Wharton as a non-legacy, you can probably make it into banking from Ross. If you're paying in-state tuition, I recommend saving the money and picking Ross. But that's just me. I'm the kinda guy who would try to use a coupon on The Price Is Right.

If your interviewers haven't heard of Penn and they are hiring, that's not a place I'd want to work at.

You might as well take Penn State over Williams or Amherst.

 
bIastoise:
If your interviewers haven't heard of Penn and they are hiring, that's not a place I'd want to work at.

You might as well take Penn State over Williams or Amherst.

Sure, but these are also the firms that pay 40-60% of net trading revenues and have a plenty of money to put up in capital for a 22 or 23 year-old. I have a few stories about kids from UIC and UW Milwaukee who retired at 28 from trading on the CBOT, but that is another story for another thread.

If you are pretty sure you're good at proprietary trading, you probably want to be in Chicago, not New York. And you do not want to graduate school with a lot of debt. It is one thing to have the opportunity to work for an investment bank; it is quite another to HAVE to work for an investment bank. Lower student debt gives you more options and makes prop trading more palatable.

Chicago pragmatism vs. New York pedrigeeism. To each their own, I guess.

@Penn vs. Amherst, you raise a good point- I'd take Penn State engineering over Amherst or Williams. There are kids graduating from those schools who are having trouble landing jobs, but from top-twenty Penn State engineering, you'll be just fine.

 

if your cost of attendance is the same i think you should do wharton. i went to uconn undergrad and although i managed to make it work (and def not on same tier of recruiting of michigan), i definitely thinlk its best to keep the doors open. plus living in a city is great.. can always go to giants games afterwards in NYC

pro football >college football anyways

 

Yah, so you sacrifice not being able to have Denard Robinson or Brady Hoke trudging the sidelines 6-weeks every fall in your own backyard, but thats why you have DirecTV and the Philadelphia Eagles. The atmosphere at Wharton in terms of kids is very similar to that of Michigan depending on the demographic you hail from. You dont pass up Wharton man.

 

You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
happypantsmcgee:
You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

and working 110 hour weeks while going out once a month? plus going out in NY/SF/Boston/LA is probably a lot more fun when you have tons of friends from college around. of course you can have a blast at wharton to. out of the top schools its one of the most "fun" experiences

 
bIastoise:
happypantsmcgee:
You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

and working 110 hour weeks while going out once a month? plus going out in NY/SF/Boston/LA is probably a lot more fun when you have tons of friends from college around. of course you can have a blast at wharton to. out of the top schools its one of the most "fun" experiences

I think people really over estimate the number of people that actually work 110 hours. Its not that many...believe me.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
happypantsmcgee:
You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

THANK YOU! Seriously.......go to the best school with the best connections that you can get into....period.

 
wfucpa:
happypantsmcgee:
You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

THANK YOU! Seriously.......go to the best school with the best connections that you can get into....period.

if you are talking about graduating then going into banking, then no that is not the best time of your life.

 
happypantsmcgee:
You won't close any doors by going to Penn. Why take the risk. Plus all this bullshit about college being the time of your life is nonsense. The best time of your life is when you graduate, are single, and have (significant?) disposable income.

Uffff, I disagree. You need a job that you can actually put out of your mind when you leave the office if you want to be able to enjoy your singledom and money. I am not rich, but as someone who will be applying to business school either this year or next year, I'll be able to afford it all without taking on debt - it has not been a fun ride to make this money, though.

That said, regrettably, what alexpasch said does carry some weight. I focused EXCLUSIVELY on having fun in college, which resulted in going to a non-target rather than a semi-target and not getting good grades. On the flip side, I can wholeheartedly say I had the time of my life: sports, banging truly gorgeous babes, travel, friends, etc.

I've since then found a cool (slightly stressful) job that is on the more unique side of the consulting/professional services industry, but as I've considered leaving it, I've found that some folks are certain like alexpasch - the education section of your CV can still end the conversation. So there is a price to pay for all that fun. Granted, if you get a top GPA at Ross, it's a lower price to pay than what I had to.

It's up to you. I don't regret any of it, despite the headaches it has caused me. I won't say that I don't sometimes question the decision (geez, if I'd just taken that admissions offer instead and been a bit more focused, I wouldn't have to explain myself now) but I look at what I gained, and how much of a happier and optimistic person my college experience made me, and I'm glad I did what I did.

The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
 

Sounds like Michigan is offering you a much more balanced educational atmosphere than Wharton. Wharton is great, but if your able to get in, then I'm sure you're able to compete with them as well.

Go to the school you fall in love with, as your married to it for the rest of your life. Kick butt, make friends, network - and the same opportunities should open their doors to you.

I wish, in hindsight, I would have made my academic decision based on those characteristics, as opposed to simply job opportunities - which I did, and regret.

 

If you want to make it rain go to Wharton, you want to remember college as fun time go to Michigan. (This is extremely over simplified)

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 

Illini> Stop trolling. Not everyone wants to be a prop trader. Hell you aren't a prop trader. I also don't know what prop shop you are talking about where they haven't heard of Wharton. I say this from having worked at one for a few years consistently and having friends at big names all of whom recruit at all top-10s. Thirdly, dude if you have such a hard-on for prop trading and Chicago why are you working at a BB and in NYC? Walk the talk or go home (and hang glide or whatever).

OP> Go to Wharton. You aren't an athlete where big 10 football should dictate your college choice. Don't be an extreme fanboy. Penn has a great social scene with tons of frat life and good city life. I say this from going to a big name sports school. Its cool but really not that important. You aren't going to get laid just cause the football team is doing well.

And dude, if you think 4 years in the first 1/4 of your life is going to be the best it is, why live for 60 more years? After getting that piece of paper, kill yourself. Sounds ridiculous right? That's because the only people who think college is the best years of your life probably didn't achieve their goals afterwards. College should be a stepping stone, not the end game.

Only reason you should be going to Ross over Wharton is: if its cheaper or if you have a BIG family reason. As neither applies to you, decision is straightforward.

 
baddebt88:
Illini> Stop trolling. Not everyone wants to be a prop trader. Hell you aren't a prop trader. I also don't know what prop shop you are talking about where they haven't heard of Wharton. I say this from having worked at one for a few years consistently and having friends at big names all of whom recruit at all top-10s. Thirdly, dude if you have such a hard-on for prop trading and Chicago why are you working at a BB and in NYC? Walk the talk or go home (and hang glide or whatever).
I'll be the first to admit I play a very conservative game. In order for me to go for a career as a prop trader, I have to take a huge risk. That doesn't mean it won't work out for others and IMHO, there's the same upside and less risk at Ross. The only guarantee is the cost.
Only reason you should be going to Ross over Wharton is: if its cheaper or if you have a BIG family reason. As neither applies to you, decision is straightforward.
Exactly. That's my point. The cost is a huge factor here.
 
IlliniProgrammer:
He said it was similar. But that is assuming he can't get in-state tuition if he supports himself through school.

The OP also specifically stated he wants to work in banking or consulting. Neither of those is prop trading, so I don't know why you keep citing prop trading in your posts. He has also said cost was the same, I think OP is smart enough to know when in-state tuition applies...

 

Thanks for the responses guys. They've given me a lot to think about.

I'm starting to think I shouldn't have mentioned the football thing...I'm not actually going to choose my undergrad based on a sports team, I realize that is asinine. It's more that I'd like the traditional "college experience" as a whole--sports, tailgating, girls, less competitive/ambitious/toolish student body, laid-back atmosphere, a nice college town, etc. I love Ann Arbor, but am really not a big fan of West Philadelphia. And so on.

Assuming that Michigan is a better personal fit for me, I'm really just asking: How much does the name of your undergrad matter down the line, even after your first job, for things like business school admissions? Is choosing Michigan over Wharton going to have an appreciable impact on which business schools and private equity firms I can get into years from now?

 
sycamore:
I'm really just asking: How much does the name of your undergrad matter down the line, even after your first job, for things like business school admissions? Is choosing Michigan over Wharton going to have an appreciable impact on which business schools and private equity firms I can get into years from now?

It matters a lot for business school admissions and private equity firms. Go look at all the bios of PE professionals on the PE firms' web sites. How often do you see Wharton, and how often do you see Michigan? Case closed. It seems you want Wharton's education/pedigree and Michigan's social environment. I went to Wharton and only knew like 2 people going in. Everyone is there looking to make new friends, and it's really easy to avoid the tools.

It's all about what you value in life. For me, it was quite simple. My main requirement was to go to the college that would prepare me for a career in business better than any other. Since that was basically my sole criteria, I didn't think about anything else.

 

Like let me put it as plainly as possible, using some hyperbole.

If your goal is to make millions as quickly as possible, live a luxurious lifestyle in the northeast, be able to retire in your 40s, and just plain old be a baller, then Wharton is a better fit.

If your goal is to be successful, but not wildly successful, live in the midwest, work until you're 65, and just plain old be your typical "mass affluent" individual with a nice "Michigan" sports bar/room in your house, then go to Michigan.

To me, it wasn't even a choice (I did ED), I like making it rain. I love models and bottles and just plain old love finance (like actually LOVE it). I know that if I do well, I'll be able to retire in 10 years (probably won't, because I like it, but w/e). I know if I went to Michigan, that would be impossible. After going to Michigan, I would then have to go get an MBA just to get to where I was when I graduated Wharton (i.e. an analyst at a PE shop). That's a good 6 years delay to your timeline, not to mention debt from having to get an MBA.

It's about who you are and who you want to be. Judging from your posts, you strike me as someone very different from me (your dad is probably more similar to me, since at least he's smart enough to double deposit and leave the Wharton option open). Your consistent push back on this issue (it's like you're hoping that someone will just tell you what you want to hear) tells me that maybe you really would be best served in Michigan. As a Wharton alum, I sure as hell want people that go to Wharton to actually fucking want to go there, lol. If you don't value what Wharton has to offer, then don't go there.

 
alexpasch:

It's about who you are and who you want to be. Judging from your posts, you strike me as someone very different from me (your dad is probably more similar to me, since at least he's smart enough to double deposit and leave the Wharton option open). Your consistent push back on this issue (it's like you're hoping that someone will just tell you what you want to hear) tells me that maybe you really would be best served in Michigan. As a Wharton alum, I sure as hell want people that go to Wharton to actually fucking want to go there, lol. If you don't value what Wharton has to offer, then don't go there.

Haha. Pretty astute. Yes, I would like to go to Michigan because I feel I would be happier there. And I suppose I was kind of looking for some validation that making that choice wouldn't hold me back professionally. I guess it will close some doors, though. If something like middle-market PE or corporate finance is my probable end goal when I am 30, (I don't think I'd be capable of working 70-80+ hour weeks for more than a couple years), do you think Michigan would be a fair choice?

 
sycamore:
alexpasch:

It's about who you are and who you want to be. Judging from your posts, you strike me as someone very different from me (your dad is probably more similar to me, since at least he's smart enough to double deposit and leave the Wharton option open). Your consistent push back on this issue (it's like you're hoping that someone will just tell you what you want to hear) tells me that maybe you really would be best served in Michigan. As a Wharton alum, I sure as hell want people that go to Wharton to actually fucking want to go there, lol. If you don't value what Wharton has to offer, then don't go there.

Haha. Pretty astute. Yes, I would like to go to Michigan because I feel I would be happier there. And I suppose I was kind of looking for some validation that making that choice wouldn't hold me back professionally. I guess it will close some doors, though. If something like middle-market PE or corporate finance is my probable end goal when I am 30, (I don't think I'd be capable of working 70-80+ hour weeks for more than a couple years), do you think Michigan would be a fair choice?

It will be harder from Michigan than from Wharton. It's too hard to quantify just how much harder. I don't think the social trade-off is as bad as you think it is. Objectively, the social trade-off is very, very minimal, because Penn is the "party ivy" and the campus, while in the city, does have a nice open feel. There are lots of different social groups and I've found that almost everyone that went to Penn loved it. If you go there with the mindset of "oh but Michigan is so much better because of x, y, z", then I guarantee you will be miserable or at least regret your decision. If instead you go there with the mindset, "oh this is the best business school in the world...can't wait to learn and make new friends!", then I guarantee you will love it. Everything in life is about perception.

Here's a similar question. What about if 5 years from now you got a better job, but it was in a different city from where all your friends are? What would you do? You will be making trade-offs between your personal life and your career for as long as you live, so really do some soul searching and figure out who you want to be.

 

To add one more post to this:

College is what you make of it. I know kids who went to big state schools who were introverted and enjoyed staying in on weekends. I know kids (including myself) who went to a top-10 school and tried to work and play hard. Penn will give you an option to do either of those things. Don't want to get caught up in the rat race and relax your frosh and soph years of college? You can do that. Want to grind it out and get those banking internships your frosh summer? You can do that too. You have optionality at Wharton and thats why its a better choice.

 

I'm at Michigan (not even Ross, but LSA) so I'm biased, but I was able to land a PE internship as a sophomore. While Wharton may make getting a banking/PE/HF internship easier, it certainly isn't impossible or even exceptionally difficult at Michigan. That said, I think the advice to go to Wharton and transfer to Ross if you don't like it is spot on.

 
Umadbro:
I'm at Michigan (not even Ross, but LSA) so I'm biased, but I was able to land a PE internship as a sophomore. While Wharton may make getting a banking/PE/HF internship easier, it certainly isn't impossible or even exceptionally difficult at Michigan. That said, I think the advice to go to Wharton and transfer to Ross if you don't like it is spot on.

No offense, but you probably got that internship via an already existing contact and it's not a real internship. That, or it's just not a top notch firm. It's not a relevant data point for the OP.

Firm I used to work at mainly gave internships to kids of "friends of the firm" (i.e. portfolio company CEOs, LPs, personal friends of the Managing Partners, etc.). Not all of these were HYPS; more like top 25 schools. They definitely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

No way you just sent your resume to some large firm like Blackstone (or even a decent MM firm) and they said "oh yeah...a sophomore at Ross...this is what we need for the summer!" lol

 
alexpasch:
Umadbro:
I'm at Michigan (not even Ross, but LSA) so I'm biased, but I was able to land a PE internship as a sophomore. While Wharton may make getting a banking/PE/HF internship easier, it certainly isn't impossible or even exceptionally difficult at Michigan. That said, I think the advice to go to Wharton and transfer to Ross if you don't like it is spot on.

No offense, but you probably got that internship via an already existing contact and it's not a real internship. That, or it's just not a top notch firm. It's not a relevant data point for the OP.

Firm I used to work at mainly gave internships to kids of "friends of the firm" (i.e. portfolio company CEOs, LPs, personal friends of the Managing Partners, etc.). Not all of these were HYPS; more like top 25 schools. They definitely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.

No way you just sent your resume to some large firm like Blackstone (or even a decent MM firm) and they said "oh yeah...a sophomore at Ross...this is what we need for the summer!" lol

^Read again, I'm in LSA not Ross. No, it's not a large or well-known firm. In fact, they only started 6 months ago, but they are legitimate and apparently I'll be doing some modeling. I had some previous real estate experience that meshed with what they were looking for. I didn't know anyone at the firm before I saw the posting on the LSA career center, which is infinitely inferior to Ross's career center. For that reason, I thought it might be relevant for the OP. These opportunities exist at Michigan as well as at Wharton.

 

The comparisons are getting a bit out of hand. Ross sends upwards of 20% of its student body to top finance firms, the same bulge brackets that Wharton kids go to. I disagree that it is substantially easier to get an IB job at Wharton then Ross. Obviously Wharton is better academically/prestigious and sends more kids to Wall Street, but this is more a function of the person, not the school. The average person who is accepted to Wharton is smarter/more driven/more finance oriented than the average person at Ross. But anyone in Ross who is decently smart and motivated gets IB offers. You, clearly a smart kid having been accepted into Wharton, will have ZERO problem getting into banking, (not to mention you're already on WSO as a high schooler.)

True, you might not get into a PE firm like Silver Lake out of college, but I guarantee you will not find it any harder to get to the bulge brackets, where you will be working side by side with kids from Harvard, Wharton, etc. Don't be fooled into thinking that you are destined for a middle class, midwest lifestyle just because you go to Michigan, and that Wharton is going to be a ticket to riches. The truth is, they will both get you to a analyst position at a top bank - you just might have a better time along the way at Michigan.

 
latitude4310:
The comparisons are getting a bit out of hand. Ross sends upwards of 20% of its student body to top finance firms, the same bulge brackets that Wharton kids go to. I disagree that it is substantially easier to get an IB job at Wharton then Ross. Obviously Wharton is better academically/prestigious and sends more kids to Wall Street, but this is more a function of the person, not the school. The average person who is accepted to Wharton is smarter/more driven/more finance oriented than the average person at Ross. But anyone in Ross who is decently smart and motivated gets IB offers. You, clearly a smart kid having been accepted into Wharton, will have ZERO problem getting into banking, (not to mention you're already on WSO as a high schooler.)

True, you might not get into a PE firm like Silver Lake out of college, but I guarantee you will not find it any harder to get to the bulge brackets, where you will be working side by side with kids from Harvard, Wharton, etc. Don't be fooled into thinking that you are destined for a middle class, midwest lifestyle just because you go to Michigan, and that Wharton is going to be a ticket to riches. The truth is, they will both get you to a analyst position at a top bank - you just might have a better time along the way at Michigan.

You are right, but by the same token, the OP is also blowing the social difference way out of proportion.

At the end of the day, it's all about the individual person. True, you can still get the same analyst job, but some of the premier, uber exceptional opportunities will be essentially out of reach no matter how well the OP does at Ross. I do know people that went so Silver Lake out of undergrad, as well as Bain Capital, GS PIA, etc. I know people my age that have their own firms, have their own funds, etc. Sure, I also know people that just went to banking and/or consulting. If the OP strongly feels they won't be in the top 25% of Wharton, then maybe this argument is moot.

 
Best Response
latitude4310:

Don't be fooled into thinking that you are destined for a middle class, midwest lifestyle just because you go to Michigan, and that Wharton is going to be a ticket to riches. The truth is, they will both get you to a analyst position at a top bank - you just might have a better time along the way at Michigan.

This is key. I can't tell you how many of my friends went on to the top Med Schools, Law Schools, and MBA programs after undergrad. I went to UChicago; a few friends went to Stanford, one to Harvard, a few to Kellogg, a few stayed in Ann Arbor where Med / Law / MBA have all historically been top 10 (MBA has slipped a bit). Most work in either Chicago or NYC. A few in LA, San Fran, Boston, DC. One in Atlanta. One in Dubai, One in Qatar, One in Singapore, One in Kuala Lumpur. The point is, they (and me) are all over the world, doing the same high brow shit the Wharton kids are doing.

So, make your choice based on which you feel will be the best fit for you - not which one you perceive gives you a slight edge at landing a gig that you know nothing about, and have no idea that you'll be interested in when the time comes.

 

I think it's ultimately a cultural issue- whether you see yourself as no different than your cousin working at wal-mart or if you see yourself as a member of the global elite. That seems to be the difference I pick up between the east coast private school mentality and outside.

Wharton will get a driven person further, but not that much further than Michigan or certainly Chicago or Northwestern- which OP should consider as a good transfer option if he's simply rejecting the east-coast culture.

OP needs to take his parents seriously, but if he is honestly seeing this as the Gryffindor vs. Slytherin decision, it is ok for him to listen to his values more. When he gets to the street, he may look back at this decision and grit his teeth a little- along with the whole east coast culture, but I don't think he'll rue it.

 

Michigan grad here--Ross is an incredible school as is Michigan. If you're from the state you clearly understand the tradition of such an incredible institution. What do you want to do in college though? Both schools are fun. Penn might give you more exposure to rich kids. Michigan has D1 sports (so does penn but like who cares about the ivy league), a much bigger population of students in which you'll find many opportunities to make great friends and learn about yourself, and has top professors from the best schools in the country. Penn will be cut throat and arguably less fun. You should try and find ross and wharton seniors to talk to to get their perspective.

 

I went to Michigan. My old roommate went to Penn. We would both tell you to go to Michigan. It's more fun, and if you're smart enough to get into both, your opportunities will be what you make of them either way.

If you were talking MBA, you'd have to pick Wharton over Ross, but for undergrad either one will get you the opportunities you want, and Michigan will be a lot more fun.

Also, not sure how the conversation deviated to prop trading, but if you go that route, Chicago is definitely where you want to be (Getco, Jump Trading, DRW, Peak6, etc.) and an MBA means jack shit to those guys. Michigan or Penn will serve you equally well at those places, and really they look more at MFE's from UChicago, Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, etc. A lot of Computer Science hires as well, from Stanford, MIT, Illinois-Champagne, and Carnegie.

 
djfiii:
I went to Michigan. My old roommate went to Penn. We would both tell you to go to Michigan. It's more fun, and if you're smart enough to get into both, your opportunities will be what you make of them either way.

If you were talking MBA, you'd have to pick Wharton over Ross, but for undergrad either one will get you the opportunities you want, and Michigan will be a lot more fun.

There's a bit of a logical fallacy in recommending Wharton over Ross for MBA, but not for undergrad.

It should be obvious to everyone that the OP is going to go to Michigan, much to the chagrin of his parents. In 3 years we can all reply to his "Semi-target looking to break into Wall Street" thread.

 
alexpasch:
djfiii:
I went to Michigan. My old roommate went to Penn. We would both tell you to go to Michigan. It's more fun, and if you're smart enough to get into both, your opportunities will be what you make of them either way.

If you were talking MBA, you'd have to pick Wharton over Ross, but for undergrad either one will get you the opportunities you want, and Michigan will be a lot more fun.

There's a bit of a logical fallacy in recommending Wharton over Ross for MBA, but not for undergrad.

Really?

You're making an assumption that the recommendation is based solely on the perceived quality of the program, when in fact, it takes into account the reality of recruiting patterns.

The net is cast much wider for undergrads than it is for MBA's, i.e. "dream" firms in every field recruit heavily at say the top 5-7 MBA programs (which presently excludes Ross, but not Wharton), but recruit undergrads at a larger number of targets, which includes both Ross and Wharton. You could argue that on average, Wharton places a higher number / percentage of undergrads at those firms, but it's debatable how meaningful that gap is, if it exists.

Logical fallacy averted.

 
alexpasch:
djfiii:
I went to Michigan. My old roommate went to Penn. We would both tell you to go to Michigan. It's more fun, and if you're smart enough to get into both, your opportunities will be what you make of them either way.

If you were talking MBA, you'd have to pick Wharton over Ross, but for undergrad either one will get you the opportunities you want, and Michigan will be a lot more fun.

There's a bit of a logical fallacy in recommending Wharton over Ross for MBA, but not for undergrad.

It should be obvious to everyone that the OP is going to go to Michigan, much to the chagrin of his parents. In 3 years we can all reply to his "Semi-target looking to break into Wall Street" thread.

Exactly, this kid is setting himself up for potential failure.

if you can't get a BB offer by then kid, my hedge fund should be running. I'll hire you.

 

I attend Cornell, though I always wanted to go to Michigan Ross, but was rejected and never even applied to Wharton.

Here's my perspective:

A school like Cornell or Wharton or even Ross will do wonders for your career and opportunities. You will be surrounded by many talented students who are vying for similar jobs so many people on this board desire to go into (IB/S&T,PE,HF, etc...) and the competition will be stiff no matter where you go. I say this as someone who transferred schools and went to a state school before going to Cornell and can vouch for the fact that the competition is unlike anything you've experienced as a high school senior. As others have stated on this board, fit is key in your decision and what many people do not tell you or understand is that while these schools do offer incredible opportunities, you need to be competing at a level where you can take advantage of these opportunities (e.g you won't be getting into IB with a 2.3 GPA even if you attend Harvard), so you need to choose the school where you will be happy and content, so that you are mentally sound and ready to tackle the many hurdles you will face at either school...

Personally, I would attend Ross having visited Wharton & Philly and having a miserable and dangerous experience there (I got mugged there and almost was shot) and also because of the fact I always wanted to attend a school with a strong UG business program and nice social life, which Michigan along with several other schools matched excellently. Nonetheless, whatever decision you make be sure you consider your happiness and mental stability as you enter either school, because trust me you will need both to succeed in every aspect not just academically/career wise while you are a student there.

Good luck.

 
ibdreamer:
I attend Cornell, though I always wanted to go to Michigan Ross, but was rejected and never even applied to Wharton.

Here's my perspective:

A school like Cornell or Wharton or even Ross will do wonders for your career and opportunities. You will be surrounded by many talented students who are vying for similar jobs so many people on this board desire to go into (IB/S&T,PE,HF, etc...) and the competition will be stiff no matter where you go. I say this as someone who transferred schools and went to a state school before going to Cornell and can vouch for the fact that the competition is unlike anything you've experienced as a high school senior. As others have stated on this board, fit is key in your decision and what many people do not tell you or understand is that while these schools do offer incredible opportunities, you need to be competing at a level where you can take advantage of these opportunities (e.g you won't be getting into IB with a 2.3 GPA even if you attend Harvard), so you need to choose the school where you will be happy and content, so that you are mentally sound and ready to tackle the many hurdles you will face at either school...

Personally, I would attend Ross having visited Wharton & Philly and having a miserable and dangerous experience there (I got mugged there and almost was shot) and also because of the fact I always wanted to attend a school with a strong UG business program and nice social life, which Michigan along with several other schools matched excellently. Nonetheless, whatever decision you make be sure you consider your happiness and mental stability as you enter either school, because trust me you will need both to succeed in every aspect not just academically/career wise while you are a student there.

Good luck.

I agree with you. If he's going to go into Wharton with the mentality of "oh I wish I had gone to Michigan because of x,y,z", then he'll view everything through a negative lens. His unhappiness and negative attitude will actually prevent him from doing well. This will hurt his career prospects and in such a scenario he is better off going to Michigan. This kid is going to go to Michigan, it should be ultra clear to everyone by now.

 

Not really. Wharton is the best undergrad business school bar none. Every business worth its name will recruit a Wharton grad out of undergrad. The OP will have ZERO opportunity cost by going to Wharton career wise. He will lose some social opportunity cost but thats exaggerated.

I love how this board loves to tout up the non-elitist mentality of the midwest. You guys never attended the better frat parties did you? The biggest tools and wealth flaunting kids I have ever met were from a particular fraternity at Michigan (for those that attend: its the same a**holes everywhere). Stop using stereotypes. There is a reason people are bringing up non-quantifiable, touchy feely nonsense to push for Michigan. Anyone involved in this business knows Wharton will open more doors. If you don't think that is true, you are kidding yourself.

From someone that didn't attend Wharton and have friends at both Mich and Penn.

 

Just wanted to throw my two cents in here. I go to Michigan right now, and am a rising sophomore. I assume that since you are saying Ross, you must be a preferred admit to the business program. Reason I'm bringing this up is because I was one as well.

As far as the preferred admits go, they are a pretty smart group and end up doing extremely well in Ross with stats comparable to many ivies. You should not have a problem getting jobs in top firms out of college if you choose (Consulting or Banking wise, maybe even some PE like Blackstone), especially since you know what you want to do. In fact, out of a class of around 350, Ross sent about 40-50 to top BB + top boutiques in 2009-2010. In 2007, it sent 70 out of 350. Keep in mind that only 50% of Ross students major in finance (remotely interested in banking), so that's even less competition. I also know that firms such as DE Shaw and Citadel actively recruit at Michigan (Engineering and Business), as well as most of the top prop firms if you change your mind and are interested in that down the line.

One of the amazing things about Michigan is that fact that it is so well regarded in a vast majority of fields. Over 70% of Michigan degrees are ranked nationally top 10 in their respective department (with many at number 1). Not including business, this includes Music, Engineering, Architecture, Programs within the College of LSA (Liberal Arts such as Psychology, Anthropology, etc.), Law, Medicine, Social Work, Education. I'm mentioning this because other than just business, you will have the opportunity to meet a lot of different people who are great at their field, giving you a way to network with people not just interested in Business.

I went in blind, and people in my dorm hall, as freshman did amazing things (in research opportunities). For example, one of them was working on antigravity (stuff straight from science fiction), while another was doing work on satellite technology to look at climate change and the ozone layer. As a business major, you'll still get access to a great many resources and clubs. As an example, many business majors go into the Solar Car Team at Michigan which routinely comes first in North America and recently came 3rd in the world. If you decide you are interested in Entrepreneurship rather than finance down the line, as a business major you can still go to Engineering entrepreneurship center and classes and meet with some of the best engineers and programmers (http://cm.baylor.edu/ICPCWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Results%20World%20Finals%20…) in the world (a sizable minority of Ross students do this).

Obviously, as has been mentioned above, it depends on the individual person what you choose to do. But Michigan will not limit you in any way as some posters may suggest. If you choose to be actively involved then Michigan can be second to none. As people in finance, many seem to forget that they stand on the shoulders of the rest of the economy (from a lot of the posts on WSO). If you go into banking or PE, especially at the top levels it's a lot more of building relationships. With over 500,000+ alumni, you'll have Michigan alumni and friends everywhere around the world, from Tech (Apple, Google, Facebook, etc.) and the Environment (solar, wind, hydrogen etc.) to cutting edge research (CERN, Fermilab, etc.), all of which will propel future investment bankers, PE, HF, and VC firms forward in the future.

For solely business, Wharton is definitely the place to be. UPenn is also a great University, but don't be under the impression that Michigan will slow you down. It's dependent on you and what you choose to do.

Also, one more thing is that most people I've met don't have the "I'm better than you" mentality at Michigan. Not saying they do at Penn, but my objective view of Michigan from being and living there. Good luck with whatever you decide, with your options you'll be able to do whatever you want no matter what you choose.

 

Dude - please read this. Letting anonymous people on an internet message board affect a decision like where you will spend your time in college, arguably the most formative years of your life, is foolish, and when you put the question to a place like WSO, even more so. Why am I chiming in then? I'm probably a hypocrite and have no idea what I'm talking about, or maybe what I'm saying will connect with you, cuz based on your reactions so far it seems like nobody else's comments have totally resonated (not that I will either).

Schools aren't just perfect fits for people based on job opportunities they provide. You seem like you had a good start with what you were originally thinking, and now listening to these people has clouded your opinions. It's never going to be impossible to do any one thing because you chose one school over another. If you really want to do banking, consulting, PE, HF, etc., going to Ross or Wharton isn't going to stop you. The shit people like alexpasch are saying is not only wrong, it's straight up dangerous. It boils life down to things that are essentially meaningless, or at least definitely not worth forsaking another life path entirely for. If you think otherwise, the choice is easy. People on this site have this fear that not going to a place like Wharton will make it impossible/highly unlikely for them to be successful, and then they define success as having a nine figure net worth and key to a G5. That's just plain wrong, and I don't think I need to explain why.

If you take care of your shit, if you do all the things you need to do, you'll get into banking. If you still want to after that, you'll get into the buyside. Your school brand doesn't have nearly as much to do with that as your work ethic, personality, and inherent skills. There's no blueprint for anything based on other people's stories in finance. Ok cool, some (definitely not all) kids from Wharton graduated, went to GS TMT, worked at KKR, got an MBA at HBS, and returned to work in PE again. And? What happened in between? If that's all your life is defined by, isn't that kinda empty?

I try not to use personal experience if at all possible, since it likely won't apply to you, but my most enjoyable job up to this point (including a summer interning in IBD at a BB) was a job on campus that started off paying me $8.00/hr (popped to an incredible $9 by the time I graduated). I met all nearly my best friends in college through it, and it helped me develop a lot of skills I think will be really helpful in the future. Honestly, I doubt I'm gonna enjoy a job as much as that ever again, and I'm cool with that. In between entering college and graduating with a job in banking, I partied, hooked up with girls, supported my school's sports teams, went to music festivals, traveled to places just cuz I thought they'd be fun spots, and basically lived a fun ass college life. What job I was gonna get wasn't the last thing on my mind, but it definitely wasn't the first either.

You can probably enjoy any period of your life so long as you have the right frame of mind, and college isn't necessarily the best time, but it often is because there's never again going to be a place where everyone around you is of the same age and generally interested in the same things, and you can pick and choose your friends, your favorite teachers and classes, and what you do with your time. You think you're gonna have the freedom you do as a college student when you've got a wife and kids, even if you are worth a billion? Wouldn't you wanna be sure you made the most of the next four years, knowing that?

I'm not saying you should pick one school or the other. It seems like you're leaning towards Michigan, and that's fine. But seriously look at the next four years as a time to learn about yourself and prepare yourself for the future. Which school will help you get a certain job should certainly be part of it, but not as much as stuff like:

-how close you want to be to your family and friends from high school -whether you would prefer to stay in an environment similar to high school (assuming you're from Michigan or went to public high school, this would be going to Ross) or try something new (Wharton, since it will be a private school in a new place with pretty much entirely new people) -which location you like more purely for what it offers on its own -whether you'd prefer to be around a lot of the same types of people, or whether you'd like to be around all sorts of different people (not saying either is better, but some schools actively make it a point to segregate different majors, i.e. NYU has a separate orientation for Stern students)

As long as you think broad questions like this over, and you're confident you have the right answers to them, I'm sure you'll be able to make the right choice for yourself. You'll probably enjoy any school that you go to, but allowing yourself to be persuaded one way or the other because one school would give you a better chance of retiring at 40 could be the biggest mistake of your life.

I know this was long, but hopefully you read into at least some of it. Hope it helps.

 
You're retarded. This is a no brainer...go to Wharton. Unfortunately prestige and brand name matters more than you would think.
if you can't get a BB offer by then kid, my hedge fund should be running. I'll hire you.
No offense but if you choose Ross over Wharton then you are probably too dumb for banking.

I think this kid has learned more than he ever wants to know about the ugly side of the east coast mentality from this thread.

Kid, go where you feel you've got a school that stretches you but lines up with your values. I think these folks don't understand how/why someone would turn down Wharton. There's definitely a bit of a penalty for turning down Wharton, but for a bright kid, it's not that big. Something you can't quite put your finger on yet is steering you towards Michigan. Maybe it's the culture or the egalitarian values or the fact that they've got a Campus Crusade chapter. I suggest you quickly figure out what that is and whether it's worth it. Hate to say it to an 18-year old kid, but this decision is going to have a significant impact on how you turn out as an adult.

Things that you probably won't regret choosing a school for over job opportunities:

-Cultural/Religious Values -Specific professors that you've met and want to do research with

Things you will regret choosing a school for over job opportunities:

-Watching sports -Girlfriends -Being stubborn and/or unwilling to admit you were wrong.

 

put two scraps of paper in a bin. one that says ROSS and the other Wharton. When you randomly choose a paper and see what is written on it, you will either feel relieved or disappointed. If you feel relieved, go to that school. If you feel disappointed choose the other school.

DONE

 

This thread can be summarized as follows:

The pro-Wharton folks support the idea that every bit of edge in landing your dream job is worth sacrificing all other aspects of the decision. Wharton has the better brand, particularly in NYC, and I don't think that is up for debate in this thread.

The pro-Ross folks, while agreeing that Wharton has that edge, question whether it is substantial enough to be the critical decision maker.

If Ross only placed 2-3 kids each year out of 350, then the choice would obviously be Wharton. However, with the numbers provided above (i.e. 40-50 placements @ top BB's etc), it's reasonable (even for you pro-Wharton folks) to conclude that there is sufficient opportunity either way, and that other decision factors can come into play. If your threshold for "sufficient opportunity" is higher than 40-50 placements out of 175 finance students, then you probably aren't qualified to be criticizing this type of decision.

 

I have a friend who was accepted to both Michigan and Wharton and somehow managed to defer at Penn for a year while attending Michigan. I don't know how she worked that out, but it might be worth looking into. She ended up coming to Wharton.

I know another guy who got into HYPS and chose Michigan because he's from the Midwest, loves the sports culture, got a free ride and a ton of perks. Big fish in a small pond type of deal. He ended up transferring after freshman year. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from our conversations it seemed like being the big fish wasn't all that great and he wanted to be around more motivated peers.

Anecdotes, but some things worth considering.

 

Who is saying UMichigan is an egalitarian place with midwestern values? If you go to Ross you're gonna be surrounded by the same type of kids who went to Penn or Wharton (aka out of state kids from Westchester and Long Island who drive nice cars and care about status)

 
bIastoise:
Who is saying UMichigan is an egalitarian place with midwestern values? If you go to Ross you're gonna be surrounded by the same type of kids who went to Penn or Wharton (aka out of state kids from Westchester and Long Island who drive nice cars and care about status)

I'm not from the States and to be honest Michigan was never on my radar when applying to colleges, but from what I've heard it's basically the number one backup school for smart rich kids around the country. Good reputation and relatively easy to get into. I remember reading in the NYT that more students come from families earning 200k+ than from the bottom half of the income distribution.

 
xerrox:
bIastoise:
Who is saying UMichigan is an egalitarian place with midwestern values? If you go to Ross you're gonna be surrounded by the same type of kids who went to Penn or Wharton (aka out of state kids from Westchester and Long Island who drive nice cars and care about status)

I'm not from the States and to be honest Michigan was never on my radar when applying to colleges, but from what I've heard it's basically the number one backup school for smart rich kids around the country. Good reputation and relatively easy to get into. I remember reading in the NYT that more students come from families earning 200k+ than from the bottom half of the income distribution.

Reasons to choose Michigan over Wharton
  1. To play hockey
  2. backup plan
  3. party - this is a party school

For what it's worth, in ten years, it's unlikely you will hang out with the same people, but if you go into finance it's highly likely you'll wish you'd gone to an ivy.

Get busy living
 

Wharton will provide better opportunities than any other undergraduate business program in the country, but many people here are far overstating the drop-off in opportunities that you'll have if you choose to go to Michigan. If you want to work in banking or trading or go into consulting at MBB, then you'll have essentially the same opportunities at Michigan as you will at Wharton. They're both target schools for all the big firms that have formal on-campus recruiting programs. Where Wharton will have a large advantage is if you want to go directly to a PE firm, hedge fund, or something else that relies specifically on alumni that remain connected to their schools. Wharton has a much stronger legacy network for these types of firms because they've been putting students into these fields for a long time, whereas the history Ross alumni moving into these fields is more recent. This means that the difference in strength between the two schools is largest at the more senior roles in these types of firms. That said, Ross students still have a lot of opportunities to move directly into these fields -- it's really only in comparison to Wharton (as well as Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Stanford) that Ross students are at a disadvantage.

With that said, Accidental Banker's post above is spot on. There's a lot of dangerous information and opinions out there in this thread, and your decision on where to go to school should be based on much more than what place will provide you with the most opportunities in a business-related career. This isn't a decision between Wharton and a middling public school like Ohio State or Florida. It's a decision between two of the top schools -- and more specifically, two of the top BBA programs -- in the world.

If you'll be much happier at one school, and if you the school you want to go to will still provide you with amazing opportunities, then the decision should be easy. The schools offer much different environments, and there's nothing wrong with deciding that one of those is a much better fit for you personally than the other is. Four years at a big university in a college town will provide a much different experience than a smaller school in a major city, it certainly sounds like you'll be happier in that environment. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with people that would rather spend four years in an urban environment. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with wanting to go to a school where sports are a major part of the social experience. I'm not saying that should be the key factor in your decision, but the experience of football Saturdays or of following an NCAA tournament basketball team or Frozen Four hockey team (if hockey is your thing) can be huge parts of your college experience. If those are the types of experiences that you love, then that will be a big part of your college memories, of your friendships, and of the bonds that you'll have with your school for the rest of your life.

 
indenturedprimate:
Wharton will provide better opportunities than any other undergraduate business program in the country, but many people here are far overstating the drop-off in opportunities that you'll have if you choose to go to Michigan. If you want to work in banking or trading or go into consulting at MBB, then you'll have essentially the same opportunities at Michigan as you will at Wharton. They're both target schools for all the big firms that have formal on-campus recruiting programs. Where Wharton will have a large advantage is if you want to go directly to a PE firm, hedge fund, or something else that relies specifically on alumni that remain connected to their schools. Wharton has a much stronger legacy network for these types of firms because they've been putting students into these fields for a long time, whereas the history Ross alumni moving into these fields is more recent. This means that the difference in strength between the two schools is largest at the more senior roles in these types of firms. That said, Ross students still have a lot of opportunities to move directly into these fields -- it's really only in comparison to Wharton (as well as Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Stanford) that Ross students are at a disadvantage.

With that said, Accidental Banker's post above is spot on. There's a lot of dangerous information and opinions out there in this thread, and your decision on where to go to school should be based on much more than what place will provide you with the most opportunities in a business-related career. This isn't a decision between Wharton and a middling public school like Ohio State or Florida. It's a decision between two of the top schools -- and more specifically, two of the top BBA programs -- in the world.

If you'll be much happier at one school, and if you the school you want to go to will still provide you with amazing opportunities, then the decision should be easy. The schools offer much different environments, and there's nothing wrong with deciding that one of those is a much better fit for you personally than the other is. Four years at a big university in a college town will provide a much different experience than a smaller school in a major city, it certainly sounds like you'll be happier in that environment. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with people that would rather spend four years in an urban environment. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with wanting to go to a school where sports are a major part of the social experience. I'm not saying that should be the key factor in your decision, but the experience of football Saturdays or of following an NCAA tournament basketball team or Frozen Four hockey team (if hockey is your thing) can be huge parts of your college experience. If those are the types of experiences that you love, then that will be a big part of your college memories, of your friendships, and of the bonds that you'll have with your school for the rest of your life.

well said sir.

 

be balanced about your decision. yes, it is a no brainer to go to wharton, but also remember to keep in mind where your support system would be strongest. If u Mich Ross is a bit closer to home and you would have a more balanced life, then stay home. It all comes down to where you would excel academically AND personally/emotionally.

 
UFOinsider:
djfiii:
UFOinsider:
3. party - this is a party school

Now here's a guy talking out of his ass. Arizona State is a party school. Ohio State. Wisconsin.

But Michigan? Are you kidding? Have you ever been to Ann Arbor on a Saturday night? There are frat parties, just like at Penn and every other uni. There are bars with drunk guys and girls, just like at Penn and every other uni. There are also a few thousand nerds crammed into the libraries and computer labs.

Calling Michigan a party school is laughable. Either you've never been to Ann Arbor, or you've never been to a real party school, or both.

When compared to Arizona State, every school is serious. However, you are correct - my brain made the connection to Michigan State. MU is more relaxed than Wharton, however, and I have friends and family that went to both schools.....and Wharton is definitely more culturally 'focused' in nature.

Yes, Michigan State is definitely a party school. I routinely went up to East Lansing to visit friends when I actually wanted to have fun :)

I can buy that Wharton is a bit more academic, more competitive, and more focused. I just don't buy the conclusion that the gap is sufficiently wide that choosing Ross over Wharton makes someone retarded. Less competitive for a tiny number of very specific positions? Sure. Out of the running completely? No way.

Given the OP's stated goals, and the vagueness / fluidity of them, Ross is a perfectly reasonable choice, and will provide almost all of the same opportunities he'll get coming out of Wharton.

 

I think you should do what you want to do, which appears to be Michigan. You will get a lot of good opportunities at UM, so it will not be a career killer by any means. However, consider the fact that anywhere you go to school will afford you the opportunity to party and make friends. I turned down Wharton a long time ago to stay local and go to a good state school. I am still on track to get to where I want to be, but I personally regret not having gone to Wharton for the networking opportunities and the better caliber of education and peers in Finance than my state school gave me. The state school I went to was worse than UM, but still top 25. I had lot of fun, but I really don't stay in contact much with my friends from undergrad, and my closest friends are the ones I made in the "trenches" as an analyst along with people I've met in the city where I work. There is no right or wrong answer here. I would personally recommend going to Wharton because it is the top undergrad business program in the country and will make it easier for you to get into the top companies coming out, however you will still have a shot coming out of UM. If two identical candidates are applying for a job with the only difference being UM/Penn, the Penn guy will get the job more often than the UM guy. If you need a reason to choose between candidates, Penn will get picked over Michigan all else equal.

Good luck with whatever you choose, but I agree with Alex, I get the feeling that you will end up at UM and were really looking just for affirmation from some on here that you're not an idiot for picking UM...

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 
Something Creative:
I think you should do what you want to do, which appears to be Michigan. You will get a lot of good opportunities at UM, so it will not be a career killer by any means. However, consider the fact that anywhere you go to school will afford you the opportunity to party and make friends. I turned down Wharton a long time ago to stay local and go to a good state school. I am still on track to get to where I want to be, but I personally regret not having gone to Wharton for the networking opportunities and the better caliber of education and peers in Finance than my state school gave me. The state school I went to was worse than UM, but still top 25. I had lot of fun, but I really don't stay in contact much with my friends from undergrad, and my closest friends are the ones I made in the "trenches" as an analyst along with people I've met in the city where I work. There is no right or wrong answer here. I would personally recommend going to Wharton because it is the top undergrad business program in the country and will make it easier for you to get into the top companies coming out, however you will still have a shot coming out of UM. If two identical candidates are applying for a job with the only difference being UM/Penn, the Penn guy will get the job more often than the UM guy. If you need a reason to choose between candidates, Penn will get picked over Michigan all else equal.

Good luck with whatever you choose, but I agree with Alex, I get the feeling that you will end up at UM and were really looking just for affirmation from some on here that you're not an idiot for picking UM...

This is probably the most relevant post to the OP out of any so far, if for no other reason that you are: a) Done with college, so can give an ex-post analysis b) Went to a similar type college c) Work in finance

As you say, you are still on track to get where you want to be, but you regret not having gone to Wharton. Your experience is most like what the OP is going through. I think the OP will go to Michigan, and might end up regretting his decision once his life revolves around his career rather than a Saturday football game. The OP is greatly overestimating the social difference imo, it's not like we're talking Mich vs. UChic.

It's too hard to know everything about the OPs thinking, but I doubt he applied to Wharton for shits and giggles...if he absolutely hated it socially or culturally, he wouldn't have even applied (for example, I would never have applied to Michigan, or places like Dartmouth, because I know I didn't want that type of college). I actually liked the fact that Penn was in a big city (but had its own campus-feel, unlike BU or NYU), and the fact that it was the "party ivy" despite having little attention paid to the sports teams.

If we were talking about happiness for the next 4 years, then the decision is crystal clear, Michigan. When we're talking happiness in the next 40 years, the choice is a lot more cloudy, and basically boils down to the values and goals of the OP. Judging from his posts, it seems that he is willing to sacrifice at least some career success for enjoyment in other areas, (nothing wrong with that!) which is why I think he will end up in Michigan.

 

Wow, I never would have expected this to get so many responses....let alone lots of long, really well-thought out ones from people like Accidental Banker, indenturedprimate, dijifii and alexpasch (and many others too). Thanks guys.

This thread has, on the whole, actually made me a lot less sure of going to Michigan. But it's always good to have more things to think about and more perspectives to consider.

To some of the people downplaying the social differences, I think you might be underestimating how different the student bodies are. Sure, a lot of Michigan kids will be from Long Island (and probably in particular in Ross, like someone mentioned), but something like two-thirds of the student body is from in-state. I think there really is a big difference between the East Coast vs. Midwest vibe, as vague and hokey as that sounds. (I've also visited and talked to people at both schools).

Is the Wharton name actually valued enough that it could mean the difference between, say, getting into Harvard vs. getting into Haas/Columbia/whatever for MBA?

People say the name opens doors throughout your life, but what kind of doors could it really be opening once I am 30?

Not trying to discount Wharton here, maybe the name really does open doors, but I just can't think of how it might...but that is why I am asking people who would actually know.

I am genuinely considering Wharton, I'm not trying to waste anyone's time. Yes, I suppose this thread did start off as something of a decision-validating exercise, but now I am actually pretty torn. Thanks again for everyone's responses.

 
sycamore:
Is the Wharton name actually valued enough that it could mean the difference between, say, getting into Harvard vs. getting into Haas/Columbia/whatever for MBA?

People say the name opens doors throughout your life, but what kind of doors could it really be opening once I am 30?

All else being equal, the Wharton candidate will have a slight edge. Obviously, if you get a 4.0 in Michigan, then that's not a relevant argument. People can argue about just how big that edge is, but everyone agrees there is at least a little one.

The doors it opens depends a lot on what you want to do. I know first hand just how snobby and elitist the finance world can be. Things like raising money for a fund, will be a lot easier with Wharton on your bio, than Michigan. It's also a much, much stronger brand internationally, and among the wealthy elite (for example, my first LP is a Wharton alum) . Humans are very subtle, irrational creatures. Brand names matter. And on top of that it's not just brand name, the actual caliber of the business education is leagues better. I have met people that graduated from top 25 schools and studied business/economics. The gap between what they learned and what I learned is astounding.

Life is what you make of it. If your goal is to be the next George Soros, then you'd have to be crazy to pass up Wharton. If your goal is simply to make a lot of money in business, then Michigan will suit you well enough. Just how exceptional do you want to be? Now someone will bring up some anecdotal counterargument, and that's fine...but we are talking PROBABILITIES here...if you look up where Wharton undergrads end up 20 years post graduation...the statistics are ridiculous. Hell in my graduating class alone ('08) there are already a few self-made multi-millionaires.

 
alexpasch:
sycamore:
Is the Wharton name actually valued enough that it could mean the difference between, say, getting into Harvard vs. getting into Haas/Columbia/whatever for MBA?

People say the name opens doors throughout your life, but what kind of doors could it really be opening once I am 30?

All else being equal, the Wharton candidate will have a slight edge. Obviously, if you get a 4.0 in Michigan, then that's not a relevant argument. People can argue about just how big that edge is, but everyone agrees there is at least a little one.

The doors it opens depends a lot on what you want to do. I know first hand just how snobby and elitist the finance world can be. Things like raising money for a fund, will be a lot easier with Wharton on your bio, than Michigan. It's also a much, much stronger brand internationally, and among the wealthy elite (for example, my first LP is a Wharton alum) . Humans are very subtle, irrational creatures. Brand names matter. And on top of that it's not just brand name, the actual caliber of the business education is leagues better. I have met people that graduated from top 25 schools and studied business/economics. The gap between what they learned and what I learned is astounding.

Life is what you make of it. If your goal is to be the next George Soros, then you'd have to be crazy to pass up Wharton. If your goal is simply to make a lot of money in business, then Michigan will suit you well enough. Just how exceptional do you want to be? Now someone will bring up some anecdotal counterargument, and that's fine...but we are talking PROBABILITIES here...if you look up where Wharton undergrads end up 20 years post graduation...the statistics are ridiculous. Hell in my graduating class alone ('08) there are already a few self-made multi-millionaires.

I understand that you are a Wharton alum and I think it's great to sell your alma mater, but seriously dude, you have quite the elitist attitude.

You have to be go to Wharton to be George Soros? What kind of BS is that - if you are driven and smart as shit like Soros, with some luck, you will end up where he is whether you went to Wharton, Harvard, Mich or UCLA. How do you even know this kid wants to be George Soros, maybe he just wants a comfortable life. The fact is, success will be dependent much more on the individual than the school he went to. Like you said, I know recent Wharton grads who are extremely successful, even one that is a millionaire, but I also know some Wharton guys that haven't done so well. Conversely, I know state school kids that are at the pinnacle of finance opportunities like KKR, Carlyle and SAC Capital. Obviously, if you take a large sample set of Wharton vs. the average school, Wharton kids will end up better, but I'm sure if this kid keeps his head on his shoulders, he will end up just fine.

Regarding your points on education, I don't disagree that Wharton's undergrad finance program is kick ass becasue it is, but honestly man, how much of your Wharton academia has contributed to your success as an investment banking analyst, hedge fund trader or PE job? Maybe your experience at Wharton was vastly different and you are Will Hunting, but mostly everyone I know has learned all they know on the job and in the trenches, Wharton kids included. I did not go to Wharton and did not even really major in finance, but I bet I know just as much about finance as you.

The undergradate backgrounds of HBS's incoming class would be an interesting statistic to see, but I wouldn't say that Wharton kids have a slight edge getting into HBS, especially today. First of all, HBS is trying to diversify away from finance, and I think GPA, leadership and experience carry more weight than the school you went to.

To prevent this from turning into a flame war, we all know what Wharton offers - it just doesn't help when you say shit like going to Mich over Wharton is going to ruin your career or that you won't end up where you want to be. This is an incredibly important decision for this kid and he should make it based on a lot of factors that are important to him, career included. At the end of the day, both schools will offer great career opportunities and both schools have great social scenes, but there are big differences like the student body culture, big ten football, location, proximity to family and so forth. To the OP, I would dwell on it some more, talk to your family and friends and weigh the comments on this website less to make your decision. Go where it feels right.

 
To some of the people downplaying the social differences, I think you might be underestimating how different the student bodies are. Sure, a lot of Michigan kids will be from Long Island (and probably in particular in Ross, like someone mentioned), but something like two-thirds of the student body is from in-state. I think there really is a big difference between the East Coast vs. Midwest vibe, as vague and hokey as that sounds. (I've also visited and talked to people at both schools).

This is definitely true. The other thing to keep in mind is that from a social standpoint, you're going to be spending your time with other kids from the general undergrad population, not just with other business undergrads. At Michigan, you're roommates and dorm-mates will be in LS&A, Engineering, pre-Med, etc.

Is the Wharton name actually valued enough that it could mean the difference between, say, getting into Harvard vs. getting into Haas/Columbia/whatever for MBA?

No. All of these schools tend to be well represented at HBS and Stanford GSB (as well as all the other top b-schools). As long as you do well enough in school and on the GMAT, admission to the top b-school programs will come down to how successful you've been in your career and what kind of leadership qualities you've demonstrated. This comes down to you and is not a function of where you go for undergrad. While there will be more Wharton than Ross students that matriculate at HBS in most years, that's a function of (1) Wharton's greater selectivity means there are more students of that caliber, (2) more Wharton undergrads decide to pursue a career path that includes an MBA, and (3) Wharton students are more concentrated on the east coast while UofM students split themselves more between the east coast and the midwest. Speaking as a Ross alum from about a dozen years ago (in other words, before Ross' name was on the school), I had a number of classmates that ended up at HBS. Similarly, many of my classmates went to Stanford, Wharton, Chicago (where I got my MBA), Kellogg, Columbia, etc.

People say the name opens doors throughout your life, but what kind of doors could it really be opening once I am 30?

The name of the school you went to at this point will matter far, far less than the network you've built by this point of your life. This network will include people you've remained friends with since undergrad, but will more generally be a function of the network you've built in your career. Both Wharton and Ross will provide you with the opportunity to build lifelong friendships with classmates that will be part of this network. Of course, if there is a difference in how happy you'll be at each school, then this will impact how strong of a network you build.

 

I really don't think certain Wharton alumns are doing themselves or their school any favors. OP- get used to these kinds of attitudes if you go to Wharton. Are they worth putting up with- or worse- turning into if you go there? That's for you to decide.

As you can see, a lot of folks from state schools make it to the street, and Michigan is among the best, at least in business/finance. A state school will hurt your career a little, but not enough to outweight anything more than minor concerns about culture/fit. I say the same thing about choosing between firms.

Regardless, the greatest investor in the country graduated from the University of Nebraska. So no, if you're as brilliant as George Soros, you won't be George Soros if you graduate from a state school. You'll be Warren Buffett. And you'll drive a rusty Honda. And you'll eat at Dairy Queen.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
I really don't think certain Wharton alumns are doing themselves or their school any favors. OP- get used to these kinds of attitudes if you go to Wharton. Are they worth putting up with- or worse- turning into if you go there? That's for you to decide.

As you can see, a lot of folks from state schools make it to the street, and Michigan is among the best, at least in business/finance. A state school will hurt your career a little, but not enough to outweight anything more than minor concerns about culture/fit. I say the same thing about choosing between firms.

Regardless, the greatest investor in the country graduated from the University of Nebraska. So no, if you're as brilliant as George Soros, you won't be George Soros if you graduate from a state school. You'll be Warren Buffett. And you'll drive a rusty Honda. And you'll eat at Dairy Queen.

Not trying to be elitist, simply looking at probabilities. I knew someone would bring up Buffett sooner or later. The thing is, for every Michigan grad running his own PE or HF, there are probably 10 with a Wharton degree. Like this is an easily verifiable fact...go look at a PE or HF web sites that have principal's bios and count what schools you see? You'll see Harvard, Princeton, Wharton, Stanford, etc. moreso than anything else. It's not elitist to tell the OP that if his career is his main motivation, that he would be better served at Wharton. (I don't think his career is his main motivation as far as college choice, which is why I think he will go to Michigan) For example, I hate rural environments, but if Wharton were located in bumblefuck Kansas, you can bet your ass I still would have gone there (and I wouldn't have had to ask validation from anyone - if anything, I actually had to fight my dad to let me go to Wharton). It's a question of priorities.

I'll be the first to admit that you can end up anywhere regardless of starting point. All I'm saying is that, again, if career is your main priority, that you're doing yourself a disservice by choosing one school over the other. I'm not alone in my opinion and the facts support my conclusion. I'd argue that's logic, not elitism.

PS - I have tried to, rather than diss Michigan, say why Wharton is better. I haven't even said that Wharton is better for all people. I have made clear what type of person is better suited for Wharton, and OP doesn't really strike me as that type of person. That's why I have concluded he will be going to Michigan.

PS2 - I would argue that you have a sort of "reverse elitism". I don't think people in the midwest are better or worse than me, but I think it's funny that in thread after thread, you have expressed a self-righteous attitude regarding that lifestyle. There have been times in my life where I have been very, very frugal, and other times where I was all models and bottles. Let people live their lives how they see fit without judging their character. I have not disparaged the OPs character or lifestyle in any way. I have repeatedly stated that it seems his values are different than mine and that I think that will lead him to choose Michigan (and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that).

 
PS2 - I would argue that you have a sort of "reverse elitism". I don't think people in the midwest are better or worse than me, but I think it's funny that in thread after thread, you have expressed a self-righteous attitude regarding that lifestyle. There have been times in my life where I have been very, very frugal, and other times where I was all models and bottles.
So one of us is merely misunderstood and the other is clearly understood by someone very confident in his analytical abilities and therefore is a self-righteous midwestern bumpkin. :-)
I'll be the first to admit that you can end up anywhere regardless of starting point. All I'm saying is that, again, if career is your main priority, that you're doing yourself a disservice by choosing one school over the other. I'm not alone in my opinion and the facts support my conclusion. I'd argue that's logic, not elitism.
I guess that's what I don't understand. Why are we starting with the premise that career is the sole priority here? For a lot of people- even perhaps a majority or at least a plurality in the front office, it starts with values, then their family, then getting what they want out of life, then a career. Yes, we prioritize our careers more than other people do, but it is not a sole consideration, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably isn't even a primary consideration.
 
IlliniProgrammer:
PS2 - I would argue that you have a sort of "reverse elitism". I don't think people in the midwest are better or worse than me, but I think it's funny that in thread after thread, you have expressed a self-righteous attitude regarding that lifestyle. There have been times in my life where I have been very, very frugal, and other times where I was all models and bottles. Let people live their lives how they see fit without judging their character. I have not disparaged the OPs character or lifestyle in any way.
Oh dear. You are honestly trying to justify your behavior as not being elitist and call other folks self righteous in the same paragraph. One of us is merely misunderstood and the other is clearly understood and therefore a self-righteous midwestern bumpkin. I'd laugh if you were joking, but I'm kinda worried you're serious. :D

Again, I'm not trying to be elitist, simply a realist. You have your life experiences and I have mine. Obviously we have reached different conclusions regarding this issue. The person who has posted who has actually lived through a very similar situation to what the OP went through, stated that he regretted his decision. Also, another person mentioned that someone they know went to Michigan and then transferred to Wharton. Others have posted opposing views. If we're being elitist, then you're being self-righteous. For better or worse, people use certain heuristics to arrive at decisions. While you may call that "elitist", it's also reality, and if the heuristic were useless, it wouldn't exist.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
For a lot of people- even perhaps a majority or at least a plurality in the front office, it starts with values, then their family, then getting what they want out of life, then a career. Yes, we prioritize our careers more than other people do, but it is not a sole consideration, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably isn't even a primary consideration.

Ya and I am sure the OP likes Michigan's midwest values of frugality and not the fact that he thinks Michigan girls are hotter than Penn girls. I wish there was an eye roll emoticon. Kid just graduated high school. If you think where you go to college has a big bearing on values and family priorities, you are mistaken. Not everyone who went to an elite school is from a rich WASP family. I am a minority, from a less than middle class immigrant family. Fact: The elite schools provide more diversity than your state schools. State schools I applied to (Virginia, Indiana) were a lot more homogeneous than any of the better private schools. And yes, the private schools were better - academically, student wise, career wise, and network wise.

The purpose of college is to set yourself up for your career. It helps if you can have a great time while doing so, but that is the primary purpose. If he wants to do IBD/consulting, he closes 0 doors by going to Wharton while closing the Wharton door by going to Michigan. I assure you, its a ton harder to transfer into a school of Wharton's caliber than the other way around.

I am giving the OP the same advice my mentors gave me when I went to college and what I am providing my sister as she goes to college. My education cost me as much as it would to go to my not-as-good state university and the connections I made are unbelievable. The long term value of your college, at least in this business, is the network....period. And the network at Wharton is about as good as it gets.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
I guess that's what I don't understand. Why are we starting with the premise that career is the sole priority here? For a lot of people- even perhaps a majority or at least a plurality in the front office, it starts with values, then their family, then getting what they want out of life, then a career. Yes, we prioritize our careers more than other people do, but it is not a sole consideration, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably isn't even a primary consideration.

This is a career-oriented site and the OPs question was specifically regarding career-related issues. The OP is basically trying to weigh whether the career benefit is worth the social cost. I don't think the OP is giving up as much socially as he thinks he is, but that's a decision for him to make. I never met anyone at Penn that regretted going to Penn (it's not like I sought them out either). Most people end up liking where they go for college, regardless of where they go (this is a proven psychological concept, the name escapes me...it's related, but not the same as, the proximity theory of attraction). Knowing what I know about psychology, I view the social cost as essentially nil. Because I view the social cost as essentially nil, I think he should go to Wharton. Obviously, if he goes in there with a negative attitude, that trumps the psych concept, and in such a scenario he should go to Michigan. I'd bet good money that within 2 weeks he'll be like "omg I love x professor and omg I can't wait to bang that chick in my writing seminar". People end up liking where they go regardless of where they go...but proving that to them ex-ante is impossible and obviously, it's not guaranteed either.

 
bearflatten:
IlliniProgrammer:

From what I gather, you're a tech guy/desk quant at a bank who went to Illinois - is this accurate?

Hahaha it's that easy to tell

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 

If it costs the same, go to Wharton. Honestly, you don't know shit about the world when you graduate high school (nor will you when you graduate college). You really don't know exactly what it is you want. Why close doors by going to Mich when you can keep them open by going to Wharton. I see this as a risk-reward scenario where the "payout" of not going to Wharton (you might enjoy college more at Mich than at Wharton, although you will never even find out the answer to this) is not really worth the risk of closing doors career wise by not going to Wharton.

Trust me, you don't know shit about the world, you don't know what you want, so go where you can still have fun and keep doors open. Life is about seizing the right opportunities when they come, just keep that in mind.

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
 
total:
Being in constant competition due to regionality, fuck you wharton. That being said, I cannot understand not attending wharton if you want to go into banking.

Lol the most bipolar post ever. Unfortunately, business is all about competition. Even artsy stuff is competitive. I'm sure most artists would love to sell their paintings for the same prices Picassos go for. What's your point?

 
alexpasch:
total:
Being in constant competition due to regionality, fuck you wharton. That being said, I cannot understand not attending wharton if you want to go into banking.

Lol the most bipolar post ever. Unfortunately, business is all about competition. Even artsy stuff is competitive. I'm sure most artists would love to sell their paintings for the same prices Picassos go for. What's your point?

I am acknowledging wharton as the best ugrad business school for finance. I go to a nearby school and had to constantly compete with wharton kids for summer internships. If I had the opportunity to wharton, there is no way I could pass it up.

 

The thing is though, you run into the elitist issue a lot if you work at a large "prestigious" place and you're going for the "prestigious" roles. I have run into this a few times. It doesn't always matter how hard you work. Connections and pedigree do matter and carry a lot of weight. When I was younger I didn't realize this and was always taught that hard work was all that mattered. It's not.

UM is still a really good school, it's just that Penn is better for business. That's it. It's just a matter of weighing out what's more important to you. There is not a huge drop off . It's just a matter of weighing that little bit of extra oomph against other top candidates v.s being with your friends and going to a normal state college and having that regular college experience.

I am on the right track and have progressed pretty far from where I started by going state instead of ivy, but I think I would have really been helped and gotten further faster if I had a better "pedigree". That said, I wouldn't have had my same life experiences that shaped who I am. There is no right or wrong here, it's just a matter of doing what's most important to you. For me, being further along at 30 and change with a fam, in hindsight, I would have taken a different route than I did and given myself every advantage that I could have.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 

Damn, this thread has made me feel terrible for going to a top non-US school haha.

Alex, it's interesting that you discuss pedigree given you're (I assume from the LP/Soros comments) running a HF. The investing world, from a fund management perspective, is barely about pedigree and completely about you as an individual. It isn't as if you can only get capital from Wharton alumni...any school with rich students/alumni will yield opportunities for a startup. Beyond that, it's your track record. I'm not dismissing your other arguments at all (I think they're certainly correct), but for the particular path that you're following, I don't think it was Wharton or bust.

 
ibdhopeful:
Damn, this thread has made me feel terrible for going to a top non-US school haha.

Alex, it's interesting that you discuss pedigree given you're (I assume from the LP/Soros comments) running a HF. The investing world, from a fund management perspective, is barely about pedigree and completely about you as an individual. It isn't as if you can only get capital from Wharton alumni...any school with rich students/alumni will yield opportunities for a startup. Beyond that, it's your track record. I'm not dismissing your other arguments at all (I think they're certainly correct), but for the particular path that you're following, I don't think it was Wharton or bust.

The answer is yes and no. Keep in mind I'm 25. At least for the time being, my track record is short. Having Wharton in my bio helps. Having a relatively famous finance professor on my advisory board helps. Wharton also helped as far as getting seed money (i.e. the alumni and my contacts made while there - not saying Wharton is the only school with wealthy alumni, but the school is known for finance so for financial ventures you have a big edge). Also, I learned everything I could while at Wharton. I was taking extra finance classes so I could learn as much as possible. Most schools wouldn't even teach me some of the stuff I learned, they just don't have the courses. Not every kid at Wharton takes advantage of this stuff, but if you really want to milk it for all it's worth, there's no end to how much the school will offer you. And, obviously I'm biased, but to make it sound as if going to Wharton is like social death is just ridiculous. I slept with some ridiculously attractive girls while there, and had tons of friends. I also wasn't studying 24/7, went to tons of great parties and hosted more than my fair share. Penn is incredibly diverse, and I'm sure there will be a midwest, college-sports-following clique the OP can become a part of if he so desires.

Yes, obviously in 5+ years no one will care about pedigree, only returns, but you need to be able to make it to the 5 years and Wharton education and network has been key in allowing me to do that, especially given my age. And even then, pedigree still matters somewhat. You're more likely to get the benefit of the doubt the better your pedigree. Trust me, pedigree matters. Go try and raise some money and meet with some prospective LPs...it matters a ton. Until you've actually gone and tried to raise money, you can live in this utopia that "only results/hard work matters". I didn't write the rules, I just play the game.

 

OP - You have to realize who you surround yourself with defines your college experience. I'm a Wharton alum and I definitely learned and developed more from talking with other interesting and intelligent students (both in and outside of Wharton) than I did in class. You'll find them more easily at Penn than you will at UMich. I'm sure your high school friends are great but you will really be missing out on the unique opportunity of exploring what you've never known by going to UMich, a less diverse and less challenging school.

 

Damn... kinda disappointed that I'm destined to be a normal midwest guy with a normal finance job that will have an easier time climbing Mount Everest naked than rising to the levels of a prestigious Wharton grad.

Oh well... In-state tuition bitches!

Honestly, I think not going to Wharton is going to close some doors but will it really be that much? Especially considering you could have made it in there in the first place.

Does anybody think that Paulson/Soros/etc. wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their alma mater? Or that maybe Paulson/Soros/etc. are taking over a job that somebody from a lesser school should have (that doesn't because of the few doors that were closed?)? I dunno. Saying that if you want to become one of the global elite, you should go to Wharton just seems really weird... I think if you're going to make it to that level, it doesn't really matter where you went to school.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 
scottj19x89:
Damn... kinda disappointed that I'm destined to be a normal midwest guy with a normal finance job that will have an easier time climbing Mount Everest naked than rising to the levels of a prestigious Wharton grad.

Oh well... In-state tuition bitches!

Honestly, I think not going to Wharton is going to close some doors but will it really be that much? Especially considering you could have made it in there in the first place.

Does anybody think that Paulson/Soros/etc. wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their alma mater? Or that maybe Paulson/Soros/etc. are taking over a job that somebody from a lesser school should have (that doesn't because of the few doors that were closed?)? I dunno. Saying that if you want to become one of the global elite, you should go to Wharton just seems really weird... I think if you're going to make it to that level, it doesn't really matter where you went to school.

I'm not directing this at the manages your named but in general: A lof of fund managers and senior managers at banks and F500 companies would not be able to get interviews for entry level jobs at their respective firms (utilizing their college level resumes of course).

Times have changed and company maturity leads to an increase in necessary credentials. The whole look at (insert under-educated executive) argument is flawed.

 
Lord Blankfein:
scottj19x89:
Damn... kinda disappointed that I'm destined to be a normal midwest guy with a normal finance job that will have an easier time climbing Mount Everest naked than rising to the levels of a prestigious Wharton grad.

Oh well... In-state tuition bitches!

Honestly, I think not going to Wharton is going to close some doors but will it really be that much? Especially considering you could have made it in there in the first place.

Does anybody think that Paulson/Soros/etc. wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their alma mater? Or that maybe Paulson/Soros/etc. are taking over a job that somebody from a lesser school should have (that doesn't because of the few doors that were closed?)? I dunno. Saying that if you want to become one of the global elite, you should go to Wharton just seems really weird... I think if you're going to make it to that level, it doesn't really matter where you went to school.

I'm not directing this at the manages your named but in general: A lof of fund managers and senior managers at banks and F500 companies would not be able to get interviews for entry level jobs at their respective firms (utilizing their college level resumes of course).

Times have changed and company maturity leads to an increase in necessary credentials. The whole look at (insert under-educated executive) argument is flawed.

Speaking of flawed.... this vague argument in favor of Wharton over Ross has already been debunked. The only placement stats tossed out in this thread clearly demonstrated a heavy concentration of Ross placements at top firms. Sure, Wharton enjoys even heavier placement, but to suggest that because times are tough, Wharton == "necessary credentails" and Ross does not, is a load of crap. If 25% of finance majors from Ross are landing spots at top firms, on what basis are you making the assertion that Ross does not provide tons of opportunity?

If anyone can settle on a conclusion using empirical evidence rather than conjecture, it's a forum full of finance nerds.

 

Maybe not entry level jobs, but something tells me that they would have gotten to the same place regardless.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 
scottj19x89:
Maybe not entry level jobs, but something tells me that they would have gotten to the same place regardless.

People say that all the time but I honestly don't think so. My dad wanted me to go to UF (would've had an essentially free ride, FL resident at the time). I just don't think I'd end up at the same place. Not saying I would end up at a bad place, but definitely a different one. Who knows, maybe I fucked my life up. Maybe I'd be married to a 10 and be gladly working at an F500 in a mid-level position in their finance division. lol

 
alexpasch:
scottj19x89:
Maybe not entry level jobs, but something tells me that they would have gotten to the same place regardless.

People say that all the time but I honestly don't think so. My dad wanted me to go to UF (would've had an essentially free ride, FL resident at the time). I just don't think I'd end up at the same place. Not saying I would end up at a bad place, but definitely a different one. Who knows, maybe I fucked my life up. Maybe I'd be married to a 10 and be gladly working at an F500 in a mid-level position in their finance division. lol

I can't argue with your experience -- there's no doubt that the opportunities coming out of the University of Florida are markedly different than those coming out of Wharton, but that is a much, much different thing than the difference in opportunities at Wharton vs. Michigan. Florida is a solid state university, but it's nowhere close to Michigan in reputation and the doors that it opens up. This is especially true when you're talking about opportunities coming out of Ross.

 

To the OP, whatever decision you make, the most important thing is to not second guess yourself - just go balls to the wall (socially/academically/etc.) whichever place you choose and you'll be fine. You are fortunate because both of your options are excellent choices.

The one thing I offer is less relevant to career stuff, but more just relates to your overall academic experience. If you are intellectually curious at all and would like exposure to some of the infinitely interesting shit that is to be learned outside of finance/business/investing/whatever, I recommend going to Penn, simply because being at an Ivy will expose you to stuff you might not have even thought you were interested in, whether it comes via friends/guest speakers/non-Wharton classes, etc. Based on what some Michigan people have posted, these opportunities definitely exist at Michigan, but simply by Penn being Penn, they will be undeniably more abundant and of a greater quality there. If you think you'd prefer to just learn the finance shit (based on Michigan's stats, you'd learn it plenty well) you need to get a top gig out of college while also having the option of kickin it with your hometown bros and tailgating, then it sounds like Michigan will be the tits for you.

So, aside from the Wharton factor, don't underestimate the experience of being at a place with the breadth and depth of Penn as an entire university. If you decide you don't give a fuck about being an ibanking analyst 2 years in, you'll definitely be happier you are at Penn.

 

Btw, one important thing might be whether the OP has lived in the same place forever and has been with his friends since he was like 5 years old. Don't let your friends be your ball and chain if that's the case. Making new friends is easy, especially at an Ivy where everyone is going there from all across the country/globe. (Sorry if incorrect with this assumption...just something that occurred to me).

 

If we want to go with anecdotes and experiences...

I heard of a kid at Ross who was running a 900k fund right out of college from his apartment (and he didn't get this money from connections). Apparently he came from Pakistan with a few grand and built it up from there. If you're telling me this guy's not going to get exits because he was at Ross instead of Wharton...

Sure, it doesn't happen everyday, may not have happened ever before at Michigan. But I don't think "Ross" is going to limit him or his exit opps. And if people refuse him because he is from "Ross" rather than "Wharton," then perhaps I would question their logic at the very least.

Not saying it doesn't happen at Wharton, but genius isn't given to you by an institution.

 

This is getting out of hand. Look dude, go to Wharton and if you don't like it, transfer wherever the fuck you want. This shit is ridiculous. It's your life but at the end of the day you don't want to close doors so give it a shot and if you hate it, move on.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

First off, I'll start by stating (like almost everyone else on this board), that if your sole goal is getting the most exclusive finance gigs right out of undergrad, then Wharton is the definite choice. Ross is awesome, but it is no Wharton.

However, I think a lot of you guys who went to Ivies feel like they have a monopoly on interesting opportunities. In the most respected worldwide ranking, Michigan is ranked 15th in the world. Yes overall, Umich isn't as selective as Upenn primarily because it has more than double the seats for undergrads, and therefore has a slightly weaker student body, but if you're smart, you will hang out with smart people. Not to mention all of the different clubs and programs (such as the Honors Programs, where the students are of ivy league quality) that bring smart and intellectually curious people together.

You over-estimate the social difference. When I was with my buddies at Upenn, I had a great time. It's for sure a fun school (though I've heard Wharton is super competitive).

So it's been fairly well established, that Michigan will close doors (at least straight out of undergrad and maybe up to 4-5 years into the future). Sure it won't be tremendous (statistically doing well at Umich will land you the same place had you gone to Penn) but it's there. That being said, Michigan will open some options that Penn won't. Umich has a top notch engineering program, and therefore if you're interested in entrepreneurship in the tech space, you'll have the opportunity to work and network with some amazing engineers. I mean Steve Ballmer got his gig at Microsoft because he met Gates as hall mates. Plus the amount of money Umich pours into research coup coupled with tremendous undergrad access to research opportunities means there are plenty of great ideas floating around.

I don't think you should make this choice based on how good of buyside placement you'll have after you graduate. Both schools provide plenty of opportunity and experiences with Michigan giving you a marginally more-rounded experience, and Wharton giving you marginally better placement.

 

I am currently a student at Ross, and though I love it, I wonder if I would have been better off pushing for a better school. I am in Sao Paulo, Brazil and here school creds aren't as important as personal connections so for me it was a no brainer (I got a 100% scholarship to Ross while Wharton and Kellogg would have cost me a bunch). I do enjoy the fact that Ross seems to has more flexible academics and I have opportunities here in IB, Marketing, and pretty much anything else I want to do.

Costs being the same, I would say go to the best school possible. That is however if you are going to do anything and everything to get into IB. It is a very hard racket to get into, so your Michigan experience might offer you other open doors in case IB isn't for you. I would love to be in IB and have my own jet and blow millions just for the hell of it, but I preferred to have a wife and three kids and barbecues on the weekend. So in the end, do what makes you happy!

 
thehardcorps:
I am currently a student at Ross, and though I love it, I wonder if I would have been better off pushing for a better school. I am in Sao Paulo, Brazil and here school creds aren't as important as personal connections so for me it was a no brainer (I got a 100% scholarship to Ross while Wharton and Kellogg would have cost me a bunch). I do enjoy the fact that Ross seems to has more flexible academics and I have opportunities here in IB, Marketing, and pretty much anything else I want to do.

Costs being the same, I would say go to the best school possible. That is however if you are going to do anything and everything to get into IB. It is a very hard racket to get into, so your Michigan experience might offer you other open doors in case IB isn't for you. I would love to be in IB and have my own jet and blow millions just for the hell of it, but I preferred to have a wife and three kids and barbecues on the weekend. So in the end, do what makes you happy!

Just to be clear, this thread is about deciding between the BBA programs at Ross at Wharton, whereas your experience is as an MBA student. For MBA programs, I'm a big advocate of going to the best school you get into, with the caveat that going to a slightly lower ranked school can be justified if it is located in the same place you want to be post-MBA. The difference in culture and personal experiences you'll have across top MBA programs is far less pronounced than it is at the undergraduate level.

 

In my opinion go to the school where you know you will be comfortable. At the end of the day GPA is the end all be all of getting your resume dumped and if you are at a place you do not enjoy IDK how you could perform well. The only reason most of these people are telling you to take Wharton is because they are social elitists who don't understand a person who might want to have great experiences before entering the work force. If it is an uphill battle to get into banking from Ross (which how much of an uphill battle is it really, UofM is one of the top ranked schools in the nation), then that fight to the top will only help you once you do break into the field. End of the day pick the school your heart desires and not the one that people say is the right choice. That is the only way to live your life without regret.

 

Go to UM, keep your grades up and go to Wharton for your MBA. College is about having fun and never again in your life will you have the opportunity to experience such freedom with your friends.

group think leads to mediocrity
 
whatwhatwhat:
How many people repeating the "college is the best time of your life" mantra still in college or slaving through analyst hell?

Funny, I've kinda wondered the same thing. Undergrad was fun, but you will have plenty of fun throughout your twenties, especially if you're somewhat successful and can afford to take fun trips with your buddies and do things a successful career affords you. The impromptu trips to vegas for a weekend, checking out the kentucky derby (if you're not from the South), taking your GF/wife on a surprise trip somewhere nice, basically being able to do whatever because you just can. I would trade in all my fraternity party days for more of the former. I still got some of the former, but not as much as I (personally) could have.

I still think UM is a great school and you can be very successful going there. As a matter of fact, I wanted to go to UM since I was 4, but it was crazy expensive for out of state tuition as a public school. I would have gone to Cal or Penn if I was going to pay that much (turned down both), and I went state mainly for cost.

OP, you're definitely not killing your career by going to UM instead of Penn. Just don't buy the whole "it's the time of your life" bullshit. College will be a blast or suck no matter where you go because it's what you choose to do while there that makes it a blast or suck. I think the time you can have in your mid to late twenties is way better than the time you spend in undergrad.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 

Wharton is very investment banking focused. All of the people that I've talked to at Ross agree that they don't feel that at Ross. Both schools obviously have people that are dead set on banking and both schools do great with placing students into finance, but the numbers are far greater at Wharton compared to Ross. There is also a difference in curriculum--it's a 4 year program at Wharton compared to a 3 year program at Ross. It's up to you to decide which you would prefer. Geographically speaking, Chicago and the Midwest recruit at Ross more, and New York recruits from Wharton more.

 

Coming from a non-target, I've found that the main disparity when comparing Ivy/very top-tier to non-Ivy is that (all things being equal) the name can help you get the first interview/foot in the door, and the rest is all on you. Go wherever you will be happiest and if you network in either case, the opportunities will be equivalent.

Only time I ever got shut down being from a non-target (though this wouldn't happen at UMich, which is definitely a target), was when I applied to BCG they wouldn't even look at my résumé because they said "we are only considering those applicants from target schools."

Comes down to the usual of having a strong academic record, quality work experience, and student leadership. Do these things at a Michigan or Penn and you'll have similar opportunities.

 

I'm from Ann Arbor, MI originally and went to Wharton over a full-ride from Michigan (I think it actually ended up paying me $1.5k per semester to go but it's been a while) so hopefully I can give a different perspective from the other people here.

I have two questions for you: 1) Are you in-state or out-of-state for Umich? 2) How focused are you on finance?

1) If you're out-of-state, i.e. tuition is the same or approximately the same, then go to Wharton. The chicks at Penn aren't that great, but you can always date some Bryn Mawr or Temple girls who are higher-grade. I'll be honest, I didn't give a crap about the "Ivy League" sports. The competitiveness of Wharton is overrated as well, NYU Stern is definitely more of a vicious place than Wharton is, and from comparing my HS friends experiences it seems like everything is pretty much the same in terms of how vicious people are (which they usually aren't).

If you're in-state, your decision becomes much harder due to Umich's lower tuition costs. They're also much more accepting of high-school AP credits, so to put it into context, i could've graduated in 3 years with a moderate courseload at Umich, or 2 years if I'd wanted to "be intense". Don't recommend going less than four, but a point to keep in mind depending on how much hardship you and your family will undergo to finance college.

Basically, your decision in my mind should be Umich financing costs vs. any "oomph" from Wharton for going in your career.

2) The real "oomph" of Wharton over Umich comes for two kinds of people, the insane over-achievers who are at the top of everything, and people who are by nature slackers but have skated through high school bc they're naturally smart and don't really work that much in college.

If you're a guy with moderate social skills and an impressive GPA + Work Experience, then it's definitely easier to land a gig out of undergrad at Cerberus, Silver Point, Bessemer, etc. There are big buy-side shops (BX comes to mind) that recruit out of undergrad at Umich as well, but there are flat-out more at Wharton.

If you're a "slacker" type like I was, the "oomph" is that even with a crappy GPA (3.3 - 3.5) and almost no networking (but some solid W/E), I was able to get interviews at every bulge-bracket bank as well as 2 out of 3 of the top consulting firms. Additionally, the friends I had from drinking tended to be much more hard-working than I was and pushed me for interviews on both an internship and full-time basis (obviously, they were 1 - 2 years ahead of me).

Either way, it's not like you're shooting yourself in the foot with either decision but hopefully some added points that'll help you.

 

Remember back about 50-75 posts when people said to go to Wharton and transfer to UMich if you didn't like it?

That should tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about this decision.

A Wharton kid can get into UMich as a transfer, no question. A UMich kid trying to get into Wharton after 2 years will NOT get in. I can almost guarantee it (they have like 5 spots for more than a thousand+ candidates and networking won't help you).

 
no homo:
Remember back about 50-75 posts when people said to go to Wharton and transfer to UMich if you didn't like it?

That should tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about this decision.

A Wharton kid can get into UMich as a transfer, no question. A UMich kid trying to get into Wharton after 2 years will NOT get in. I can almost guarantee it (they have like 5 spots for more than a thousand+ candidates and networking won't help you).

By UMich do you mean Ross or just UMich?... Either way, I don't see why it's impossible for somebody from Michigan to transfer into Wharton. It may be quite harder than going the other way, but you act like both situations' outcomes are so definite. It's pretty misleading.

If you're talking about Ross... transfer students only make up 1% of the class (rounded up? rounded down? dunno).

I guess what I'm really trying to say is... you're saying shit like it's the absolute truth when it's not.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 
scottj19x89:
no homo:
Remember back about 50-75 posts when people said to go to Wharton and transfer to UMich if you didn't like it?

That should tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about this decision.

A Wharton kid can get into UMich as a transfer, no question. A UMich kid trying to get into Wharton after 2 years will NOT get in. I can almost guarantee it (they have like 5 spots for more than a thousand+ candidates and networking won't help you).

By UMich do you mean Ross or just UMich?... Either way, I don't see why it's impossible for somebody from Michigan to transfer into Wharton. It may be quite harder than going the other way, but you act like both situations' outcomes are so definite. It's pretty misleading.

If you're talking about Ross... transfer students only make up 1% of the class (rounded up? rounded down? dunno).

I guess what I'm really trying to say is... you're saying shit like it's the absolute truth when it's not.

I know two people that transferred into Wharton. In both cases they had applied to Wharton but got waitlisted and declined. It really shows you want to go there that you would keep on trying and apply to transfer. If Wharton already accepted you, and you then change your mind, I think that actually hurts you a little as far as transferring (and it's uber hard as is, the ones that got waitlisted at the other schools made damn sure they got 4.0s first semester). Meanwhile, since the OP lives in Michigan, he could always make up some BS about "oh I want to be closer to my family" and get the transfer. In the OPs case, it's easier to transfer from Wharton to Ross than the other way around.

 

I didn't read any of the three pages of posts because I'm going to give my opinion regardless. Go where you'll be happy. But here's my take (and I had an almost identical situation when picking a school.) Michigan's social scene is better by magnitudes of 10. Tailgating, Big Ten sports, big school....you get it. Will you enjoy yourself more at Michigan? probably. Just keep in mind when making your decision that you'll have to be a top student at Michigan to get the opportunities you'd get being a 75th percentile student at Penn. Realistically, this means you're going to have to pass up a lot more social opportunities at Michigan. So if you're the type of person that will be too tempted to drink 5 nights a week and only get mediocre grades, 4 years later you're going to wish you picked Penn.

 

Wow... this thing's almost 150 posts. I guess ultimately it's a question of whether you want to have a better time in school vs. having greater probability at landing top firm offers. Which one has more value to you?

Personally, I would take Wharton and if I don't like it, transfer to Ross (like several people have mentioned). Because of the opportunities, and doing the reverse (Ross ---> Wharton transfer) is definitely harder. Michigan's more fun, but really, if you put yourself out there, you'll make friends and have fun at Penn.

Though whichever way you go, I doubt you'll go through the hassle of transferring from one school to the other. Because while Ross is not in the same tier as Wharton, it's not a rinky dink non-target with1-2 measly meaningful job posts per cycle. And you're gonna establish ties, friends, comfort, etc at both places, so I doubt you'd make the move either way - you would have to be really unhappy at one location to consider it.

 

I'm finding this thread really interesting and thought I'd weigh in with some brutally honest perspective.

This is totally anecdotal but one observation I've made is that there are the same number of Wharton kids as there are Ross kids in the incoming class at my elite boutique. I'm by no means trying to argue that the odds of breaking in are the same at both places, but it would appear that Ross isn't necessarily closing doors if you really are a top candidate. You can make it from either place and Ross is a top notch school, regardless of what people are babbling about on this thread.

I went to an elite non-ivy school in the Northeast. I don't regret the decision at all, but I can tell you flat out that those places are not for everybody. The majority of kids are rich, white New England or California prep school kids or under-represented minorities from the very same prep schools. Middle class kids from Catholic schools in the outerboroughs of New York City, for example, have very little in common with either of these demographics. I was open to broadening my horizons and happy I went there, but I can see why some people would be miserable and a lot of the kids who I shared some background with were indeed pretty miserable.

Even though, as I said, I enjoyed my time in college very much, things I saw rubbed me the wrong way and I can relate to what Illini Programmer has been arguing in this thread. The devastatingly thorough insecurity of the typical elite New England social climber/future yuppie is something you need to be ready to deal with on a daily basis at these schools. Being mocked because you can't afford the same clothes as the prep school kids is sticks and stones at the end of the day, but that and other things remind you on a daily basis that you are not one of them. Think about how you would feel when you tell your friends you need a suit for an interview, that you're going to Jos A. Bank for a sale because that's where your dad has always gotten his work clothes, and then they ridicule you. Think about what it would feel like to be mocked for being Christian, conservative, blue-collar, shopping at Macy's or any other description that may apply. Can you deal with that? Only you know who you are, what's important to you, and how you will respond to people who very well might not respect those things.

At the end of the day, you know yourself a lot better than anyone on this anonymous forum does. Go where you think you will be most HAPPY (notice I didn't say "most rich", which is what a lot of people on WSO seem to confuse with "most successful"-- there is an enormous difference) and don't look back. I feel terrible for the loser who thinks KKR or Blackstone or a bespoke suit is going to bring him happiness or meaning in life. That's pathetic. Yuppies who think life is about acquiring the most toys are pathetic. I think your gut is telling you that and, let me assure you, your gut is right. Be as successful as anybody, but don't let the hollow allure of prestige allow you to lose sight of the things that YOU have always thought are most important.

Also, you've had the pleasure of listening to a particularly outspoken Wharton alum on this thread who seems to have himself a very financially lucrative PE career. Do you want to hang out with that guy? Do you want to be that guy? Think long and hard about that question, even though, you may find that you don't need to think about it very long at all...

 
jimbo_slice:
I'm finding this thread really interesting and thought I'd weigh in with some brutally honest perspective.

This is totally anecdotal but one observation I've made is that there are the same number of Wharton kids as there are Ross kids in the incoming class at my elite boutique. I'm by no means trying to argue that the odds of breaking in are the same at both places, but it would appear that Ross isn't necessarily closing doors if you really are a top candidate. You can make it from either place and Ross is a top notch school, regardless of what people are babbling about on this thread.

I went to an elite non-ivy school in the Northeast. I don't regret the decision at all, but I can tell you flat out that those places are not for everybody. The majority of kids are rich, white New England or California prep school kids or under-represented minorities from the very same prep schools. Middle class kids from Catholic schools in the outerboroughs of New York City, for example, have very little in common with either of these demographics. I was open to broadening my horizons and happy I went there, but I can see why some people would be miserable and a lot of the kids who I shared some background with were indeed pretty miserable.

Even though, as I said, I enjoyed my time in college very much, things I saw rubbed me the wrong way and I can relate to what Illini Programmer has been arguing in this thread. The devastatingly thorough insecurity of the typical elite New England social climber/future yuppie is something you need to be ready to deal with on a daily basis at these schools. Being mocked because you can't afford the same clothes as the prep school kids is sticks and stones at the end of the day, but that and other things remind you on a daily basis that you are not one of them. Think about how you would feel when you tell your friends you need a suit for an interview, that you're going to Jos A. Bank for a sale because that's where your dad has always gotten his work clothes, and then they ridicule you. Think about what it would feel like to be mocked for being Christian, conservative, blue-collar, shopping at Macy's or any other description that may apply. Can you deal with that? Only you know who you are, what's important to you, and how you will respond to people who very well might not respect those things.

At the end of the day, you know yourself a lot better than anyone on this anonymous forum does. Go where you think you will be most HAPPY (notice I didn't say "most rich", which is what a lot of people on WSO seem to confuse with "most successful"-- there is an enormous difference) and don't look back. I feel terrible for the loser who thinks KKR or Blackstone or a bespoke suit is going to bring him happiness or meaning in life. That's pathetic. Yuppies who think life is about acquiring the most toys are pathetic. I think your gut is telling you that and, let me assure you, your gut is right. Be as successful as anybody, but don't let the hollow allure of prestige allow you to lose sight of the things that YOU have always thought are most important.

Also, you've had the pleasure of listening to a particularly outspoken Wharton alum on this thread who seems to have himself a very financially lucrative PE career. Do you want to hang out with that guy? Do you want to be that guy? Think long and hard about that question, even though, you may find that you don't need to think about it very long at all...

Penn has a lot of uber wealthy kids but it also has a ton of normal kids from middle class or even lower class backgrounds. No one will ever mock you if you can't afford nice clothes. In fact, the student body, if anything, is even more diverse than Michigan's. I don't know what school you went to, but it probably had a much less diverse student body than Penn and was far more WASPy and elitist. There are definitely WASPy, elitist cliques within Penn, but you can easily avoid them and they are a minority (there is no majority group...so many different people go to Penn...look up the statistics). It's not a fair comparison you're making. You know, it's funny, for someone who claims to dislike elitism so much, you sure go out of your way to say you're at an "elite boutique" and attended an "elite non-Ivy school". Btw, you're also pursuing a career notorious for maximizing wealth and minimizing happiness. How are the 80+ hour weeks treating you? Your post reeks of hypocrisy on so many levels...

I can't tell if you're trying to diss me or not. I may be outspoken and have strong opinions on certain things, but I can guarantee you that if the OP (or you) hung out with me, you'd have a damn good time. He doesn't have to want to "be me" (and if he did, he'd definitely know from reading my posts in other threads that I only do what makes me happy...I don't care how much money I make...I guarantee you that I am currently taking a pay cut relative to other opportunities I have (KKR, Blackstone, etc. as you say), because I value my free time and lifestyle). Like you know what I did today? I woke up late, watched TV, fooled around online, worked a grand total of 3 hours, and then chatted with a fuck buddy (she comes back into town on Wednesday, yay!). The funny part is, I still made money today (this month's been great for me). Yesterday I ended work early to go out with a friend of mine to a charity event hosted by some Eagles players (you were probably still chugging away on some pitch book). I don't think "maximizing happiness" is the best argument here for you, lol. It is my personal opinion that Wharton was a key part of me being able to get to where I am today, so that's why I give the advice I give. The OP doesn't have to take my advice, it has absolutely zero impact on me one way or the other. Just like you provide him with your advice based on your life experiences I am free to provide him with mine.

PS - I don't work in PE (I used to), I have a small HF

 

I'm talking about kids fitting in with and/or liking the people they go to college with. The problem is that a lot of kids at elite schools are delusional on an almost clinical scale and do not realize how annoying they can be to the other 98% of the world. They lack all self awareness. Look at all the WSO threads on Morgan Stanley vs. Goldman, whether Ferragamo loafers are appropriate as an analyst, whether MS M&A or Goldman TMT is more of a target for mega funds. It quite literally does not get any more pathetic than that; I cringe reading some of these threads. This kid's misgivings are not irrational; he may or may not have a more enjoyable time at Michigan, where most kids are not going to be obsessed with this Wall St. nonsense 24/7 and/or obsessed with the other things that make arrogant New England prep schoolers tick. It may come as a shock to a lot of monkeys here but the extra career opportunities at Wharton (which really are quite marginal in the grand scheme of things) do not outweigh all other considerations. There is more to college than the potential for an offer from Silver Lake, one of the many, many prestigious firms 99.9% of the population has neither heard of nor cares about. That's right: no one cares about Silver Lake or the offer you got from them. That includes attractive women who, believe it or not, tend to prefer men who can, among other things, 1) carry on a conversation about something interesting (no, Silver Lake and the spreadsheets you've put together for them don't fit under the "interesting" category) 2) work less than 80 hours so you can actually go on dates 3) work less than 80 hours so you can maintain a physique more aesthetic than that of a sea lion. Believe me: a rude awakening is coming for a lot of people on this site.

Also, it's one thing to get blasted by your employer for screwing up a pitch book. It's a whole different story getting looked down on by some toolbox because you have to go to Citi instead of JP Morgan for your summer analyst program or because you got your polo at Macy's, not Brooks Brothers.

 
jimbo_slice:
I'm talking about kids fitting in with and/or liking the people they go to college with. The problem is that a lot of kids at elite schools are delusional on an almost clinical scale and do not realize how annoying they can be to the other 98% of the world. They lack all self awareness. Look at all the WSO threads on Morgan Stanley vs. Goldman, whether Ferragamo loafers are appropriate as an analyst, whether MS M&A or Goldman TMT is more of a target for mega funds. It quite literally does not get any more pathetic than that; I cringe reading some of these threads. This kid's misgivings are not irrational; he may or may not have a more enjoyable time at Michigan, where most kids are not going to be obsessed with this Wall St. nonsense 24/7 and/or obsessed with the other things that make arrogant New England prep schoolers tick. It may come as a shock to a lot of monkeys here but the extra career opportunities at Wharton (which really are quite marginal in the grand scheme of things) do not outweigh all other considerations. There is more to college than the potential for an offer from Silver Lake, one of the many, many prestigious firms 99.9% of the population has neither heard of nor cares about. That's right: no one cares about Silver Lake or the offer you got from them. That includes attractive women who, believe it or not, tend to prefer men who can, among other things, 1) carry on a conversation about something interesting (no, Silver Lake and the spreadsheets you've put together for them don't fit under the "interesting" category) 2) work less than 80 hours so you can actually go on dates 3) work less than 80 hours so you can maintain a physique more aesthetic than that of a sea lion. Believe me: a rude awakening is coming for a lot of people on this site.

Also, it's one thing to get blasted by your employer for screwing up a pitch book. It's a whole different story getting looked down on by some toolbox because you have to go to Citi instead of JP Morgan for your summer analyst program or because you got your polo at Macy's, not Brooks Brothers.

I agree with everything you said, but you seem to have some serious issues because of your personal history. You see the world through a prism shaped by your own beliefs and experiences, and you (somewhat unfairly imo) see elitism everywhere.

For example, I bet you think I'm elitist, here are some facts: A) I never applied to a single bulge bracket for a full-time position, preferring to apply instead to small "no-name" shops B) I wear a t-shirt and jeans everyday unless I have to go meet with a client C) I resigned from a lucrative job so I could do my own thing and not work so many hours, hang out with friends, and fuck chicks D) How much money someone has or what they do has zero bearing on whether I like them. I have friends that are super entitled sons of hectomillionaires, and I also have friends who struggle to pay their rent and have parents that have basically disowned them.

But no, I guess I'm elitist solely because I recommend he go to Wharton...right (rolls eyes)

If you hate this lifestyle/culture so much, why don't you quit your job, go work for a F500 firm based out of some midwestern town, work less hours but still make good money, and never have to deal with any Wall Street types? Seems like you'd be a lot happier doing that, Mr. Maximizing Happiness.

 
alexpasch:
jimbo_slice:
I'm talking about kids fitting in with and/or liking the people they go to college with. The problem is that a lot of kids at elite schools are delusional on an almost clinical scale and do not realize how annoying they can be to the other 98% of the world. They lack all self awareness. Look at all the WSO threads on Morgan Stanley vs. Goldman, whether Ferragamo loafers are appropriate as an analyst, whether MS M&A or Goldman TMT is more of a target for mega funds. It quite literally does not get any more pathetic than that; I cringe reading some of these threads. This kid's misgivings are not irrational; he may or may not have a more enjoyable time at Michigan, where most kids are not going to be obsessed with this Wall St. nonsense 24/7 and/or obsessed with the other things that make arrogant New England prep schoolers tick. It may come as a shock to a lot of monkeys here but the extra career opportunities at Wharton (which really are quite marginal in the grand scheme of things) do not outweigh all other considerations. There is more to college than the potential for an offer from Silver Lake, one of the many, many prestigious firms 99.9% of the population has neither heard of nor cares about. That's right: no one cares about Silver Lake or the offer you got from them. That includes attractive women who, believe it or not, tend to prefer men who can, among other things, 1) carry on a conversation about something interesting (no, Silver Lake and the spreadsheets you've put together for them don't fit under the "interesting" category) 2) work less than 80 hours so you can actually go on dates 3) work less than 80 hours so you can maintain a physique more aesthetic than that of a sea lion. Believe me: a rude awakening is coming for a lot of people on this site.

Also, it's one thing to get blasted by your employer for screwing up a pitch book. It's a whole different story getting looked down on by some toolbox because you have to go to Citi instead of JP Morgan for your summer analyst program or because you got your polo at Macy's, not Brooks Brothers.

I agree with everything you said, but you seem to have some serious issues because of your personal history. You see the world through a prism shaped by your own beliefs and experiences, and you (somewhat unfairly imo) see elitism everywhere.

For example, I bet you think I'm elitist, here are some facts: A) I never applied to a single bulge bracket for a full-time position, preferring to apply instead to small "no-name" shops B) I wear a t-shirt and jeans everyday unless I have to go meet with a client C) I resigned from a lucrative job so I could do my own thing and not work so many hours, hang out with friends, and fuck chicks D) How much money someone has or what they do has zero bearing on whether I like them. I have friends that are super entitled sons of hectomillionaires, and I also have friends who struggle to pay their rent and have parents that have basically disowned them.

But no, I guess I'm elitist solely because I recommend he go to Wharton...right (rolls eyes)

If you hate this lifestyle/culture so much, why don't you quit your job, go work for a F500 firm based out of some midwestern town, work less hours but still make good money, and never have to deal with any Wall Street types? Seems like you'd be a lot happier doing that, Mr. Maximizing Happiness.

@Alex: I'm really not trying to diss you at all; you probably are a cool guy and I've found your posts on WSO to be very insightful. I'm just critical of the mentality that, in my opinion, seemed to color your first posts on this thread. That mentality appeared to me to be something along the lines of (and I know these were not your exact words, just the general tenor of the posts) "If you want to be a middle management non-entity in some Michigan suburb, go to Ross; if you want to be a rockstar (of sorts, to be sure) who gets Silver Lake offers right out of undergrad, go to Wharton." And, when the kid is worried that the priority most Whartonites place on banking, banking, banking will make his social life less fulfilling, I just felt that the way in which you totally dismissed the idea of going to Ross for social reasons (a fantastic undergrad b-school, by any measure) should send up a red flag that perhaps too much emphasis is being placed on career opportunities. And, to be perfectly honest, I thought your scornful dismissal of Michigan as a school was arrogant. You may, however, be the least arrogant guy in the world. I'm referring only to that post and not to you as a person.

The only reason I mentioned that I'm at an elite boutique is to use it as an example of Ross kids doing seemingly just as well as Wharton kids. The only reason I mention that I went to an "elite non-ivy" is to show that I am speaking from some experience. But, as I also said, I didn't personally have a problem with any of the douchebaggery I encountered in college. That doesn't mean I didn't notice it and identify it as douchebaggery. It also doesn't mean that I didn't encounter a lot of kids who were made bitter in that environment. To take just one example, a close friend of mine, a very religious and very politically conservative kid from the South, started espousing openly Marxist viewpoints after a couple years. He was eventually arguing that income taxes on the wealthy should be double what they are now and that inheritances should be taxed almost 100 percent so that the world could churn out a few less spoiled brats. No joke.

I'm doing investment banking at an elite firm because I want the challenge and want to see if it might be a long-term career for me. Period. I have no illusions about what banking is going to do for me. The problem is that 99% of young people are in investment banking so they can say they are in investment banking, so they can feel cool about themselves for the first time in their life, so they can have better toys than the next guy. When they realize they aren't any cooler than they were before they got their bulge bracket offer, probably even less cool, that's when the disappointment sets in. So they jump to PE after 2 years and once again realize they are never going to be Henry Kravis. So they go to b-school thinking that will help them become Henry Kravis. But eventually they wake up and once again realize they are not Henry Kravis. If they managed to only waste 10 years chasing prestige, they're the lucky ones. I'm not saying that's you, Alex, but I do think the "go to Wharton/career opps trump everything" mentality is more likely to lead to disappointment than a very sober perspective on Wharton and an appreciation of how important social life is in college.

Ultimately, my advice is to go to the place where you think you will have the best overall college experience because you are not going to miss out on the chance to be Henry Kravis by not going to Wharton.

And, once again Alex, I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you personally. I just disagree with some of your early posts in this thread. Nothing more.

 
jimbo_slice:
I'm talking about kids fitting in with and/or liking the people they go to college with. The problem is that a lot of kids at elite schools are delusional on an almost clinical scale and do not realize how annoying they can be to the other 98% of the world. They lack all self awareness. Look at all the WSO threads on Morgan Stanley vs. Goldman, whether Ferragamo loafers are appropriate as an analyst, whether MS M&A or Goldman TMT is more of a target for mega funds. It quite literally does not get any more pathetic than that; I cringe reading some of these threads. This kid's misgivings are not irrational; he may or may not have a more enjoyable time at Michigan, where most kids are not going to be obsessed with this Wall St. nonsense 24/7 and/or obsessed with the other things that make arrogant New England prep schoolers tick. It may come as a shock to a lot of monkeys here but the extra career opportunities at Wharton (which really are quite marginal in the grand scheme of things) do not outweigh all other considerations. There is more to college than the potential for an offer from Silver Lake, one of the many, many prestigious firms 99.9% of the population has neither heard of nor cares about. That's right: no one cares about Silver Lake or the offer you got from them. That includes attractive women who, believe it or not, tend to prefer men who can, among other things, 1) carry on a conversation about something interesting (no, Silver Lake and the spreadsheets you've put together for them don't fit under the "interesting" category) 2) work less than 80 hours so you can actually go on dates 3) work less than 80 hours so you can maintain a physique more aesthetic than that of a sea lion. Believe me: a rude awakening is coming for a lot of people on this site.

Also, it's one thing to get blasted by your employer for screwing up a pitch book. It's a whole different story getting looked down on by some toolbox because you have to go to Citi instead of JP Morgan for your summer analyst program or because you got your polo at Macy's, not Brooks Brothers.

I am sorry you come from an underpriviliged background,

Now please proceed to stfu and stop being bitter and irritating.

to OP, you come across as a kid and totally clueless in terms of what you want to do with your life. You have correctly identified that banking and consulting gives the most exit options.

Use the same consistency for your university choice.

When you are young is the time to create options, later on in life they will slowly but surely be taken away from you.

If you ever want to work outside the US the name wharton will carry you alot further. Outside the US people will go "wtf is michigan?".

 

As somebody who's going to Michigan in the fall, I'd agree that you should try to go to Wharton and transfer if it ends up that unbearable. My reason: There will probably be more job ops for you (how much? I have no idea) at Wharton and that's it really... If it ends up being a shitty place to go to school for you, you can always transfer n come hang out with me haha. Ann Arbor's a fun city and weed is decriminalized if that's your thing (first three offenses are only tickets)... If you get your medical card, you won't even have to pay a ticket and there's a dispensary/head shop right across the street from the campus!

Note: don't let the weed thing influence your decision haha

I've heard of some really douchey kids at Michigan. There's obviously gonna be the douchey, conservative, rich guys, but I've noticed some really liberal douches too... Michigan's kind of a liberal state. All in all though, I think you'll have a great time at Michigan (just ordered my season tickets for football :D).

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

Do the people with certain negative stereotypes about Wharton (rich, elitist, WASP, cutthroat) realize that Ross is looked upon in the EXACT SAME WAY by non-Ross students at Michigan? The culture and make-up at Ross and Wharton is very, very similar (minus the football of course).

If cost is the same, go to Wharton. After freshmen year, if you are not happy, transfer to Ross. If you kept your grades up, I guarantee that you will be accepted by spinning the reasons people have cited here.

End thread.

 

This thread ended up getting way bigger than I ever expected. I want to thank everyone for their opinions.

Like someone said, a message board is not the place to go to for life advice. But a lot of the great comments on here have really given me some more stuff to think about in the next couple weeks.

Thanks a lot guys.

 

Looks like I'm a little late to the party, but I'll throw in my opinion as a non-target, PE guy.

First, I think the social differences between Michigan and Wharton are vastly overstated. The truth is that your college social experience will be as fun or as dull as YOU choose to make it. I've lived in three VASTLY different cities since graduating, two of which I had never been to before. Making new friends and having fun is entirely about having the right attitude. In college, you're surrounded by people looking to make friends and enjoy themselves, it doesn't matter where you go. Both schools will have an abundance of people that you wish to befriend and an abundance of people that you don't care to associate with. The "typical student" doesn't matter -- you're only going to hang out with the select few dozen people you actually like.

Second, the value of Wharton's undergrad reputation is very real and will be an important factor for the rest of your career (should you pursue IB/PE). This will manifest itself through everything ranging from the knowledge that will make you "good at your job" to the relationships and perception of you by your clients/LPs/whoever. People WILL treat you differently. It's pathetic, but the same words spoken from a pedigreed individual will be more respected than those by someone with less impressive credential. I've done a ton of work in the mid-west and this holds true no matter where you are.

Thirdly, and probably most importantly, your personality and maturity are still developing. People change drastically in college and again their first few years out of college. I graduated more than four years ago and have observed nearly all of my peers maturing significantly. The ones with the biggest regrets are those who didn't focus on their careers. They enter the workforce and find it difficult to achieve their goals because they didn't take the right classes or, potentially in your case, choose the right school. At age 18 it is likely that your values and ambitions are going to change multiple times before you graduate and there is a lot of value in leaving as many doors open as possible.

Fourthly, similar to point three, as you change the types of people you enjoy associating with will change. I no longer keep in touch with some of my closest friends in high school while some of my high school acquaintances have become regularly drinking buddies. This is completely normal and as a result, you're taking a risk by choosing a school based on where you friends are going. Similarly, I'd never advise for someone to choose a school based on their girlfriend -- this almost never works out.

Finally, and I'm going to show a little arrogance here, I think for people to say that college is the best four years of your life is complete BS. Don't get me wrong, college is fantastic and should be enjoyed, but it is also a tool for setting you up for your career. If you are hard working/smart/lucky enough to achieve your current goal of getting into PE, I think you'll find that "adult life" far exceeds college life.

Ultimately the people on this board are only able to present you with their observations, anecdotes, and opinions. It is up to you to determine how to apply the advice to your own situation.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 
CompBanker:

Finally, and I'm going to show a little arrogance here, I think for people to say that college is the best four years of your life is complete BS. Don't get me wrong, college is fantastic and should be enjoyed, but it is also a tool for setting you up for your career. If you are hard working/smart/lucky enough to achieve your current goal of getting into PE, I think you'll find that "adult life" far exceeds college life..

I thought the day would never come, but I did find intelligent life capable of critical reflection on WSO.

Id give you an SB if I could, looking into buying some credits to be able to deliver.

Rest of your post is also excellent, did not want to spam thread.

 
CompBanker:
Finally, and I'm going to show a little arrogance here, I think for people to say that college is the best four years of your life is complete BS. Don't get me wrong, college is fantastic and should be enjoyed, but it is also a tool for setting you up for your career. If you are hard working/smart/lucky enough to achieve your current goal of getting into PE, I think you'll find that "adult life" far exceeds college life..
I've said this before and been shouted down. Glad someone agrees with me.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

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If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

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