Advice for the post MBA associate
I'm joining an M&A team shortly as a post associate MBA associate. I have experience in S&T but none IBD and although i've thought myself to model, I'm sure my skills are far from up to scratch.
I know guys like me are usually detested by analysts and are generally the first to go in a firing round, so I'm looking for advice from said analysts who've worked with these guys or else people who've gone through this track themselves. What should I avoid doing, and so forth
Based on BB experience (not sure what kind of shop you're going to, and every group has different expectations for roles and responsibilities), the most successful new associates do a few things to make sure they're staying ahead of the game (caveat, these points below assume your work is accurate and you always take the time - if permitting - to spin through your work a few extra times): 1. Stay on the good side of 2nd /3rd year analysts. They know more about the job than you do, and are generally helpful. Better to go to one of them with a question about internal processes than another associate or a VP/above. I'm not saying lean heavily on them, but they are a very helpful resource if you're unfamiliar with something. Just don't make them think you're an idiot or staffings will get interesting. 2. Get up to speed with efficiently checking work. I've seen some associates take 5 hours to check a market update book and some take 1. The ones that can efficiently (and independently) verify the analyst's work will minize headaches at the junior level. 3. Get very familiar with (very quickly) what each senior banker in your group likes to see. If they like their acc/dil displayed a certain way, make sure to know it. Associates are generally shelling out and taking a first pass (with analyst support) of the books. If a senior banker can avoid having to tell a junior guy how they specifically like to see things (in some cases for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time), then you're in good shape. 4. Get ready to position yourself for the clients you want. This involves a bit of politics and positioning within the group (and may be different than my experience on the coverage side), but I would imagine certain accounts (clients) or industries are more desirable than others, get ready to identify the ones you want (and whether or not it is possible to cover them from the associate level). Not saying barge in a take what you want, but be aware of which accounts or industries you want experience in as people tend to move around in this industry. 5. Modeling is less prevalent than most people assume occurs in the IB world. That said, know accounting as well as you can. If you can sanity check a model by being aware of tax depreciation mismatches, or the misallocation of goodwill, then you'll be in good shape. Name of the game here is knowing how to quickly audit an operating model (that will come over time as you become more familiar with what an analyst will generally screw up in certain models). But for the most part, you will be auditing and not building. Some associates will build their models, but it is usually if the analyst is slammed on other stuff, or if they want to independently verify an analyst's work.
Those are the first few things that come to mind. Again, just from my experience and perspective, I'm sure groups and firms vary pretty significantly.
If you've got more questions, feel free to send a PM.
Good question.
As someone who was an IB analyst and is now a post MBA IB associate, here's my advice with respect towards analysts. Overall, my key advice is to REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE A TEAM. Yes, analysts technically work for you but in reality you will sink or swim together - especially in your first few months. As you gain more tenure the separation between analyst and associate will naturally occur. You don't need to force it day one, and if you attempt to do so, you will likely have a harder time on your associate path.
1) Know when to get out of the way. Especially with 2nd and 3rd year analysts, they often know how the process works and at least at first, are going to be much more efficient than you. Ask their opinion often as they will know all the group-specific quirks that you need to learn ASAP.
2) Set realistic deadlines and keep them whenever possible. There's nothing worse than the shrinking deadline as an analyst. They're often overwhelmed and nothing makes that worse than an unnecessary firedrill due to a mis-stated deadline from an associate. Be honest, if something needs to be done ASAP, say it. If something needs to be done in two days, say it. If it can wait until next week, say it. There's nothing worse than saying you don't need it until Friday when you really need it Wednesday.
3) Know which way the blame rolls. Uphill. At least publicly. If something's wrong, it's your fault as the associate. You are responsible for checking the analysts' work. It sucks, I know. Of course later on you can have a chat with the analyst but in the moment don't throw them under the bus.
4) Know when (and how) to pitch in when appropriate. You don't have to be doing the analysts' work in the long-run, but especially when you are new you could gain some experience by helping out. That way, later when your analyst is slammed with work, you can just take care of a diligence question list or knock out a few slides. When you tell the analyst, "Hey, I know you're really busy so I'll handle this, let me know when you free up later today so we can discuss next steps." They will sincerely appreciate it and furthermore, they will remember it going forward. That way when you get jammed up or need something at the last minute unexpectedly, they'll be more willing to help you because you helped them when they were in a bind.
Anyways, people will most likely disagree with some or all of these points but to this day I remember both positive and negative instances of the ideas above. Those who handled them well I still stay in touch with and will help in any way I can going forward. The others, not so much.
thanks guys, both detailed, excellent pieces of advice.
from talking to you guys and other friends it seems to come down to: getting on with everyone, having no ego and learning quickly, which I feel well equipped to do.
Joining as associate after MBA...can you still make it big? (Originally Posted: 01/08/2007)
Is it possible to still make it big in the ibanking industry (reach Managing Director or other senior positions) if you decide that you would like to join the industry after you have completed your MBA and can join as an associate?
I don't think you get a significant advantage going direct from your analyst class, other than a much easier transition into the associate job ( in terms of knowing how to do your job), a bigger savings account (because direct promotes get paid well and don't spend money on MBA), and 2 years of time.
If anything some people feel that an MBA gives you an edge vs someone without one for promotion higher positions like MD/ SVP.
I think thats a standard route....
Analyst-> MBA (skipped in rare cases) -> Associate -> VP -> ......
Most MDs aren't straight shooters
Agreed, most Managing Directors have MBAs and a great many of them hold MBAs from Top 10 MBA programs.
For fresh analysts who want to BFLs (banker for life), do most of them still need to get their MBAs?
At the bank where I work, there is a sizable number of VP/Directors who were straight promotes and don't have MBA's; this is more the exception than the rule.
Only a small percentage of associates are straight promotes and even smaller percentage of directors don't have MBA's. You need to be a real stud to be a straight shooter.
to ghosht: yeh
The opportunity cost of an MBA is huge, and it is really annoying especially if you graduate with a bba which is essentially the same classes as an mba. An MBA will cost roughly $150K from HBS or Wharton and you forgo two years of associate pay, ~$800K depending on your bonuses etc. If you want to be a "BFL" it is definitely in your favor to forgo mba, but if you think you might want to switch careers down the road, it is probably a worthwhile investment.
MBA is definitely worth it. You do have overlap with BBA in first year which is more genalist business, although the perspective is more top down management and the second year specialisation is what makes it. Additionally, a MBA's worth comes in the networking and cross-candidate learning.
That being said, not necessary for an analyst to associate transition, but it is more and more the norn for new SVP/Directors to MD's in terms of being a de facto pre-requisite, from what I've seen. I.e. not the old guard, but the up and coming bankers. The downside is that you end up as a first year associate, same as an analyst who clawed her way up through the ranks. Is necessary for a career change into banking, almost all the time. Additionally, most US banks are now making a MBA a pre-requisite for an assiciate level position and the same is true in Canada. Some have made their way through, but, this is not the norm anymore --Is still so in London though (although I don't know for how long).
I honestly believe that it is harder to make it to MD from an analyst than from n associate. I just think that many people will burn out early if they start at the bottom. I don't have that much experience, but it is my opinion that people who take a break to do their MBA, or do something else before their MBA have less of a chance of burning out
Career Progression beyond Post-MBA Associate (Originally Posted: 08/03/2008)
There seems to be little conversation about the possible career progression once someone has filled the role of Post-MBA associate for 2 or 3 years. I believe it goes something like VP to Principal to Partner. What I've heard is that the progression to Partner is not like banking where someone is likely to work there way up to MD at the same firm. Is it true that in order to make Principal or VP someone would likely need to assume a role with a portfolio company or startup for some time? I'm not specifically speaking about Mega-funds and am more interested in the middle-market. Any ideas?
I have a follow up question: what is the attrition rate like for post MBA associates? How many actually stat with their original firm and make it to MD or higher?
With MM funds, getting to the Partner position - in which you'd have carry - isn't very straightforward. Either the firm raises a new fund and gives you a stake in it, or a current Partner leaves. Current Partners aren't usually happy about giving up their carry.
I'd somewhat disagree with that statement. The best time to promote people to the partner level or give them significant amounts of carry is right before a new fund is raised. And existing partners usually aren't dumb enough to put their greed before the general good of the firm. Most of the smaller mid-markets have between 20 and 30 investment professionals, so everyone has to carry quite a bit of weight. Most partners would rather give up carry than see good partner-level investment professionals leave for another firm. On top of that, in most cases subsequent funds are larger in size than their predecessors, and a lower percentage of carry does not necessarily translate into less dollars.
I would second GT's comments. I would also disagree with the original statement that promotion to partner is less straight forward in a PE firm vs. a bank. I would say it's the opposite. Quite easy to move around in banking but in PE its more rare to jump around. The vesting of carry makes it more difficult to do so. It is quite common to start at sr. associate and make your way up in the same firm. Sometimes splinter groups forming new firms is an opportunity to move up/make partner, but this isn't quite switching firms altogether.
Ibleedexcel and Gametheory,
So your saying that is is reasonably possible for a post-mba to make it to partner without ever leaving the fund? And if so, what have you seen as the length of time it takes to go from 1st year post-mba to partner? 8 years? 12 years? I guess the real key is finding a fund which offers carry to the lower level associates, thus indicating a tendancy to keep employees longer and promote from within the fund.
Yes, you can make partner without ever leaving the fund. Length? - it varies. 2-3 years as a sr. associate, 2-3 yrs as a VP, 2-4 yrs as a principle = 6-10 yrs to make partner, with closer to 10 being more common than closer to 6. This would be a "junior" partner position. It could take several additional years to become a "managing" partner, which entails higher carry.
If you can source and execute your own successful deals and make money for the firm you are adding value and you will be paid and promoted to stick around. If you are helping to grow the pie that you are taking a larger and larger portion of, you are not necessarily taking any skin off others' backs. That is the model of a successful/growing firm.
You can always check the bio pages at some MM PE firms and figure out how many places the Partners have been to...
Never really done that myself but I've definitely checked up to VP/Director and it seems that those people started off as Associates, were sent to get their MBA and came back.
Coming in as an associate after MBA (Originally Posted: 07/13/2006)
I'm considering changing careers and going into ibanking. I have several years experience in public accounting with a CPA, CMA, CIA and EA (basically all your accounting certifications). I plan on getting my MBA from an Ivy or a top 20 school. I'll be about 28 by the time I graduate with a MBA. My question is will there be any stigma or some sort of resentment from my co-workers if I come in as an associate without any prior ibanking experience?
Also, what is the normal age of those who get promoted to associate? Will I be that much older than those guys?
I don't think there can be any resentment, many people seem to join after an MBA having done something else before.
I will be 30 when I graduate with an MBA. Is that too old to be and IB first year associate? Is there a cut off
I am going to be 36 and an Associate.....who cares.
The age doesn't matter so much as your attitude. As long as you don't leave your analysts hanging our to dry and try to help out as much as possible there won't be any resentment. If you expect to leave the office by 7pm every night then there may be a problem. A lot of Associates say theya re ready to work the hours or "whatever it takes," but when they actually start working they realize what a bitch this is. I would say that in the first 6 months or so, work really late and make sure you are always available. There was this guy back at my old firm that did Consulting pre MBA, came over to banking post MBA (out of TOP school) and was fired in 6 months bc he was dropping out of the office to go to the gym at 6pm, debating w the VP over what the right way to do X, Y and Z and generally ostracizing (sp?) himself to his superiors and analysts.
so don't do that -- as an associate, you can't play dumb anymore, but don't feel like bc you have an MBA you have this sense of entitlement and that you know more than the VP that has been doing this for 10 years (wo an MBA). because you don't. good luck.
Very sensible and informative advice. Thanks.
To be honest I am not sure I want to forfit my nights and Sundays indefinitely.
Do VPs work during the weekends? I am London, is it any better than New York in general?
Thanks for the great insight. Anyone else have any comments on coming in as an associate with no prior ibanking experience?
I am finishing my MBA and I am glad to hear most new associates don't have much prior experience since this is the boat that I am in.
post MBA Associate (Originally Posted: 04/20/2007)
do prior ibanking Associates who landed that position before getting their MBA start as a 2nd year Associate post MBA? i know a lot of biz schools prefer matriculating Associates because they recognize that Associates have the required skillset to take on much more responsibility....
bump
I am curious to know about this too since I will soon be this position.
I'm sure it's happened before, but it would be highly unusual.
Therefore, nobody is responding to this thread, because there is little to be said about it.
People use the MBA to become an Associate. If you are already an Associate and want to stay in banking, there's not much point in leaving to get an MBA.
I would imagine the only reason an Associate would get an MBA would be if he wanted to change careers.
In the realm of theory, I would assume that if an Associate left to get an MBA and come back into banking his experience would count. But I think most banks would question why he left to get an MBA in the first place.
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