What is corporate banking?

How does corporate banking compare vs. IBD like in terms of compensation, hours, job security, satisfaction, exit opportunity placement, etc?

I'm planning on going to law school, so any experience that has me doing work the requires more intelligence than that of a paralegal will be a positive, but if I'm applying to top10 law schools, which I am, I'd also be competing against guys that used to be at like McKinsey, Morgan Stanley, whatever. So yeah, hence the exit opportunity question, although it's probably rare that someone does IB or corporate banking then goes off to law school.

 

I did a search....can't find anything that answers my question....:)

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

Im from a non target school for IBanks but a ton of corporate banks come to campus here in FTWorth and recruit. Corporate banking is when you make loans to other companies. Its strictly debt issuances. Corporate banking usually has a 1 year training program where you rotate through the various divisions. IE. Real estate, small business, middle market, oil and gas (here in tx), ect... You learn how to look at a company and determine if it will be able to repay its debt obligations. You don't value a company the way IBankers do, you mearly determine if it's cashflows will enable repayment of P+I on the loan. Then you follow bankers around in the various divisons until you find the division you want to be placed in.

By this time a year has gone by and your now an Associate. You might be a small raise. Training programs usually start at 40-50k + 5k signon. You might be lucky if you get 5-10k at the end of the year. However, you work 9-5. I dont know how much of a raise you get after the first year. I think I remember my friend telling me he gets a 5-10% raise after 12 months?

Its a good career to go into if you dont have what it takes to cut it in a IBank. Plus, its pretty stable, pays decent for the hours worked, and the potential to make alot in bonuses is available once your a VP level (4 years about). Plus you get to wine and dine your clients who are usually CEOs/CFOs of middle market, small companies. So the networking potential is HUGE. The people your selling loans to are entreprenuers and you develop long lasting relationships with them. I have heard stories of corp.bankers leaving the bank to join into partnerships with their former clients because of the intense relationships you develop.

 

You are typically issuing senior debt and products to large companies in corporate banking. Middle and lower market is generally referred to as commercial banking, not corporate. There is a very large drop off from the large money center banks to more regional banks (think HSBC or Citi vs Suntrust). The latter probably only deal in middle to lower market, ie. commercial banking.

Corporate banking is actually a lot more than just debt, because you want to provide more sophisticated services that are attached to the loan. Examples: asset management, treasury advisory, foreign exchange, etc.

If you are at a "BB" corporate bank (HSBC, BofA, Citi, JPM Chase, Wells Fargo, ABN Amro, RBS) you will probably go through a 2 year analyst program and have some exposure to different groups (like asset backed, syndication, industry groups) depending on the company. Salary is probably 55k + 5k, I don't know about bonuses but it's less than IBD. Hours are a lot more than 9-5, but a lot less than IBD.

 

So assuming a top corporate bank and a good economy, as for hours and compensation, is it reasonable to expect 8-8 M-F and about $100k all in?

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

I don't expect to be in banking for three years....one or two years at most. So I guess about $75k first year, $85k second year?

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 
franklinf:
What are day to day responsibilities? Is it pitching or actual work with the products, such as credit analysis?

Bump for answers to this and:

  1. If its possible to get in from a non-target (my school is target enough for Big 4 and I believe Barcap does some stuff here but is mostly regional)?

  2. Can you get into a good MBA from corporate banking?

  3. How the compensation is going nowadays.

 

Corporate banking is easier to get into from a non target, that being said GPA and school name will be important.

Depends what you mean by "good" MBA. If you mean top 10-15 then yes, if you do well in Corp Banking and score within the range on your GMAT you will have a chance to get into those programs.

Compensation will be in the 60-70K to start.

 
  1. Corp banking is for by 1styearBanker (Senior Orangutan, 496 Points) on 1/19/10 at 7:45pm
    1. Corp banking is for losers
  2. Probably not
  3. Compensation blows. Only guy I know in corp banking can't afford to shell out his own 200 bucks for alcohol so we had to cover him at Marquee. I'm guessing he makes 55k compared to bankers making 70k + 60k.

The fact that your still going to Marquee and spending $200 for alcohol tells me you are a tool. The corp banking kid is smart not to waste $200 on that place. Also your facts are wrong. Im glad you loving working 30-40% more hours for 20-30% more bonus pay. 1st year analysts in IB and CB are generally the same base pay but not as much bonus pay (think 70k top bucket IB compared to 50k top bucket CB) in NYC.

 
SarahP:
If you're looking for commercial banking, which is for losers, you should stop visiting WSO and posting threads. Just visit your nearest bank and apply for a job.

Wow, someone has a chip on their shoulder. Sorry we're not as holy as thou.

 

Yawn, SarahP, every thread you comment on is worthless. Dude is asking about a legitimate subject. If you have nothing to add (at the very least try and be funny) then screw off. You and UofH girl must be related.

 

If your ultimate goal is Law School. Dont put yourself through the hell of Investment Banking. I would simply get into corporate banking at a big name and work hard for 2 or 3 years. Entering into Investment Banking is like pledging a fraternity. Its not going to be worth it if your not sticking it out for the light at the end of the tunnel (i.e. VP or Managing Director). Plus, I'm thinking most law school admissions will probably give banking experience minority status regardless if it is corporate or IB.

 

lol this thread has been going on forever. Anyways corporate banking is not same as commercial banking at small groups. Corporate banking works with syndications to raise revolver and term loan capital. They keep 10% and sell of 90%. Comp for first year at my BB is 60 +25, then 80+30 and keeps going up. Out of MBA total comp for AVP is like 150k. Guys work less hours than IBD.

One really appealing part of the job is that you don't have to live in sucky run down NYC. BB have offices all over the US, but don't activley recruit and have analyst classes. Have to be lucky to find a way in, especially out of undergrad.

At this BB they hire 5-7 years experience. It kind of sucks because while I think I can run circles around the VP in my group, I'll never get promoted before her because of my years of experience. Friggen corporate culture!

 

BCbanker is spot on with this. Corporate banking is MUCH different than commercial banking. You're generally working with a syndicate of lenders arranging revolvers and first lien term loans for large-cap companies (this can be for M+A deals, new capital raises, or refinancings). It's pure credit/capital structure analysis.

I'd argue that it's just as good as 2 years in an IB group in terms of transferrable experience to PE (depending on what bank you're at). I say this because PE funds rarely use DCF models to value companies. It's almost always done on an EBITDA multiple basis - which is contingent on many factors, one of the most important being the amount of debt the company can sustain. If you can model this out and understand the nuances in a credit agreement, you're in good shape. You will get this experience in corporate banking.

 
mlamb93:
BCbanker is spot on with this. Corporate banking is MUCH different than commercial banking. You're generally working with a syndicate of lenders arranging revolvers and first lien term loans for large-cap companies (this can be for M+A deals, new capital raises, or refinancings). It's pure credit/capital structure analysis.

I'd argue that it's just as good as 2 years in an IB group in terms of transferrable experience to PE (depending on what bank you're at). I say this because PE funds rarely use DCF models to value companies. It's almost always done on an EBITDA multiple basis - which is contingent on many factors, one of the most important being the amount of debt the company can sustain. If you can model this out and understand the nuances in a credit agreement, you're in good shape. You will get this experience in corporate banking.

Could someone please confirm/elaborate on this PE exit opp outlook? I thought PE firms always look for top M&A/Sponsors/LevFin guys. I've never once heard that junior corporate bankers place into PE.

 
BCbanker:
lol this thread has been going on forever. Anyways corporate banking is not same as commercial banking at small groups. Corporate banking works with syndications to raise revolver and term loan capital. They keep 10% and sell of 90%. Comp for first year at my BB is 60 +25, then 80+30 and keeps going up. Out of MBA total comp for AVP is like 150k. Guys work less hours than IBD.

One really appealing part of the job is that you don't have to live in sucky run down NYC. BB have offices all over the US, but don't activley recruit and have analyst classes. Have to be lucky to find a way in, especially out of undergrad.

At this BB they hire 5-7 years experience. It kind of sucks because while I think I can run circles around the VP in my group, I'll never get promoted before her because of my years of experience. Friggen corporate culture!

This is untrue. BB comp for Corp Banking is NOT 85k all in and certaintly does not reach 100k all in until associate level. I dated a girl who was a compensation consultant on Wall street. The pay is more like 70k all in for NY, and goes up by 10-15k per year.

 

Can anyone offer specific insight regarding "Debt Products Analyst" positions:

Debt Products Analysts perform intensive qualitative and quantitative due diligence on industry and company factors. Analysts are called on to: · Participate in the structuring, underwriting and documentation of credit facilities designed to meet both client and investor needs as well as balance the bank's internal risk/return requirements · Research, write and present financial and industry analyses in support of company specific and portfolio level decisions · Evaluate transaction and relationship risk-adjusted profitability to facilitate the allocation of capital · Monitor all elements of the bank's credit exposure to its clients across its international network, including periodically reassessing internally assigned risk ratings · Manage credit exposure associated with the bank's broad range of products including Leasing, Commodities/Foreign Exchange, Derivatives, Treasury Management, Receivable Securitization Conduits, etc.

Any information on pay, hours, work description etc on the position? Is this a BO role?

 

Most will go to a product group once they are inside the bank such as DCM, LevFin, Fin.Sponsors and make the transition to an MBA. Few go to PE but it is not impossible. The biggest skillset is the credit analysis and understanding credit modeling.

Also as fewer banks are willing to do bilateral PE deals, I think having syndicated experience is going to be key going to the future. Banks will want to share the risk/return profile and due diligence with other banks. You might start seeing 2-3 banks participating on financing whereas you saw 1 bank guaranteeing financing like the good old dayws.

 

If I am currently making 75k and they are keeping my base the same, I'm entering as a 2nd year analyst (I already work for the bank and am moving into corporate banking), what do you think my bonus will be?

 

Well, at those banks the corporate bankers are pretty relationship-focused. As an analyst, you cover about 10-20 companies which you get to know in depth, and the corp bankers manage all aspects of the bank's relationship with the companies. Corporate bankers essentially act as a liaison between the investment bankers, capital markets guys, etc. It sounds like a pretty interesting area to me, but I'm sure some on this board will crap all over it because it's not traditional IBD.

 
zala rules:
yeah, "acting as a liaison" sounds fascinating. Sort of like how at the end of the day Julio "acts as a liaison" between the garbage in my wastebin and the main office dumpster.

At JPM, corporate bankers are more involved in the the execution of the debt side of investment banking (Loan Syndications, Private Placements, HY Bonds, High Grade Bonds, Asset-Backed, Asset-based loans and Derivatives) than the actual "investment bankers". I have closed deals in all the categories above being in corporate banking, including all parts of the execution process. I also have been a part of M&A and equity deals, though not as often. So if you think that's working in a dumpster, maybe you should go back to your dorm room and look at your girly mags.

Yes, I work a lot less hours (avg 55-60) and get paid less than my pure IB colleagues (this year ~ 50% due to such high $ in IB), but my chance of still being around in a few years is about 5 times higher than my IB brethren who die of burnout.

 

My hours: 7am- 6:30 pm normally. Sometimes as late as 8-9, usually on Friday I get off closer to 5 or 5:30. I rarely work over 60 hour weeks. First year analyst salary is 60K with a 10k signing bonus, year end bonus range is 45-75K. I'll let you know about the exit opps in a few years though...

 

What group corporate bankers belong to? Or how are they differentiated from pure IBD? If I look at profiles on firm websites, what do I look for?

How competitive is this field? What are the chances of getting into a top MBA? And how many years do ppl spend here on average? Guess it is better then traditional IBD. Do many stay for a long time?

Do all the banks have this separate position or is it intergated into the big mass?

 

For example at Citi, the corporate bank is separate from IBD, and I believe leveraged finance is housed within debt capital markets at some banks (JPM).

Corporate banking is very different than leveraged finance and high-yield debt underwriting. CB's provide various loans (revolving facilities, term loans)to corporations for their working capital needs, capital expenses, payroll, and regular client corporate financing. These loans generally stay on the books, but may be parceled out later. It's mainly relationship focused with repeat customers, but higher ups at the big lenders typically work closely with lev fin and sponsors in arranging bridge loans, and other loans for stock buy-backs/LBO's. Most of these loans are then re-sold to other debt investors in the leveraged loan market, or may be pooled into CDO's and CLO's then resold, or if it's part of an LBO the bridge loans would be securitized into high yield debt and parcelled across the street, with the approval of the sponsor. The CLO/CDO is more on the structured products trading desk.

At large lenders, the corporate banking side may start the process off, but they generally don't have a clue where the loans may end up.. that's up to lev fin, and structured products to make money off the bank's outstanding loans.

I know a guy who was at Citi Corporate Bank, got an MBA at Wharton and joined Citi IB. I also know two top guns now at ML lev fin and Citi IBD who moved over from the corporate bank, and treasury department respectively.. It's all very possible, but requires perseverance.

 
thadonmega:
For example at Citi, the corporate bank is separate from IBD, and I believe leveraged finance is housed within debt capital markets at some banks (JPM).

Corporate banking is very different than leveraged finance and high-yield debt underwriting. CB's provide various loans (revolving facilities, term loans)to corporations for their working capital needs, capital expenses, payroll, and regular client corporate financing. These loans generally stay on the books, but may be parceled out later. It's mainly relationship focused with repeat customers, but higher ups at the big lenders typically work closely with lev fin and sponsors in arranging bridge loans, and other loans for stock buy-backs/LBO's. Most of these loans are then re-sold to other debt investors in the leveraged loan market, or may be pooled into CDO's and CLO's then resold, or if it's part of an LBO the bridge loans would be securitized into high yield debt and parcelled across the street, with the approval of the sponsor. The CLO/CDO is more on the structured products trading desk.

At large lenders, the corporate banking side may start the process off, but they generally don't have a clue where the loans may end up.. that's up to lev fin, and structured products to make money off the bank's outstanding loans.

I know a guy who was at Citi Corporate Bank, got an MBA at Wharton and joined Citi IB. I also know two top guns now at ML lev fin and Citi IBD who moved over from the corporate bank, and treasury department respectively.. It's all very possible, but requires perseverance.

Thank you for the great insight!

  1. Do all IBs have this type of corporate banking? Or only those who also have a commercial banking arm? Do pure commercial banks have this department? Like Wells Fargo. Or can this actually be called a separate department?

  2. How attractive is this job to undergrads? Is there a fierce competition for this position?

  3. How exactly is corporate banknig called at banks? I am thinking of like M&A is usually called corporate finance "officially". How do I look for it on websites if I wanna get more info?

  4. For how long do ppl generaly tend to stay in this job, compared to the 2-3 years on average in pure IBanking? I guess it is longer, because the hours are less. Can most people do this for a long time (like 15 years or so...)?

THANKS FOR THE HELP!!!

 

a friend of mine is working at Citi Corporate Bank, his group works almost as many hrs as ibd and they basically do M&A transactions and deals that are on the debt side. i don't think all banks are structured like this. Citi's corporate bank doesn't carry as much prestige as it should but i guess once you hear corporate banking, you instantly think of loans and the teller!

On the bright side, his modelling skills are almost as good as mine but i know everything about an equity transaction, he's a debt transaction master.

 

JPM - has had significant organizations in the past 9 12 months. Corporate Banking was part renamed client credit management, there was a following reorg that renamed ccm to c risk management. this group is on the deal team whenever jpm will have exposure. the group is on th sidelines for the deals, only later to create packages of approval for internal credit executives. most of the work is non dealflow dictated work, and has to do with the maintenance of the portfolio of outstanding exposure.

 

Yes, same thing, it's the "sales" function in lending. Job is to go out and win new business and maintain existing business (i.e. gain more $ commitments and don't lose existing ones).

Edit: it's way more than that, and the best ones are the ones that have a good feeling for the credit market, understand it, know what will get done and know how to structure it.

 

I see, I wonder if that holds true for most banks. Would you essentially be at the level of a first year analyst, having to go through the traditional two year route (therefore extending your path to something like PE to four years), or do you come in equal to maybe a second year?

Thanks for the insight.

1st Year Corporate Banker - hi.
 

Just wondering: why do you want to quit the job? Corp banking offers good pay + work-life balance. Sure you dont make as much as IBD but can still make a 200-300k 10years on the job working a ~50 hour week. Pay in corp banking would definitely be better than F500 CF.

Lev. Fin & M&A would definitely be higher paying roles + better pedigree but hours would be much worse than what you are used to. What are your career plans beyond that, perhaps you would be able to skip IBD and go straight into your desired role.

From what I heard CB makes the easiest transitions into Lev. Fin and credit funds are very possible.

 

Im in corp banking at WF; had many opportunities to transition into LevFin, sponsors, and rx internally & externally. Turned down several offers because the modest compensation increase wasnt worth moving to NYC and paying double for everything, while hating my life making pitchbooks. The internal levfin transition would have actually paid me a lower salary...lol.

Currently focused on credit fund interviews. Going well, but MUCH harder and require MUCH deeper knowledge of credit/investing/distressed. Hope to convert at least one in the near future.

Array
 

There are a few threads about where the money is and the places people have ended up. Generally, in terms of money, the more money you bring in- the more money you make.

Career paths I have seen many post about credit funds, and leveraged finance. There was even a post about a person that made the transition into Investment Banking.

If your still a student and trying to figure out what to do you can browse linkedin and ask people these questions, including what they get payed and how their banks are structured.

**How is my grammar? Drop me a note with any errors you see!**
 

I'm in "corp banking" (I'm not at a BB, and my group does work more analogous with lev fin than typical BB corp banking). I've put in 80 hrs this week so far, which is more than average. 9am to 7 or 8pm is pretty standard in my group. I've rarely ever left before 7PM, but some other groups leave at at 6PM or earlier. Also - you can get buyside interviews out of corp banking, such as at BDC's and some hedgefunds. PE I'm not sure, but it's likely very difficult.

 
sdumb:
I'm in "corp banking" (I'm not at a BB, and my group does work more analogous with lev fin than typical BB corp banking). I've put in 80 hrs this week so far, which is more than average. 9am to 7 or 8pm is pretty standard in my group. I've rarely ever left before 7PM, but some other groups leave at at 6PM or earlier. Also - you can get buyside interviews out of corp banking, such as at BDC's and some hedgefunds. PE I'm not sure, but it's likely very difficult.

Would you mind sharing which MBA programs are considered "targets" for corp banking at your firm?

 
THBanker:
Im a little confused as to the difference between Corporate Banking/Commercial Banking. Aren't they basically the same?

Depends on the bank, but generally Corporate Banking is lending to $1B+ clients and it pushes additional services (Treasury & Cash Mgmt, Global/Int'l Transaction Services, etc.)

Commercial Banking is more along the lines of pure lending to companies between $100mm and $1B.

Just a rule of thumb. Each bank is going to have its own tweak or spin on each and might move the needle one way or the other in terms of size under the umbrella for the respective units/focus (i.e. Corporate Banking may start at $500mm for some banks and commercial lending could go down as low as $50mm).

 

The largest banks in this space (JPM, BOA, WF) will offer a variety of debt financing to large corporations with more sophisticated capital structures (over $750MM - $1B).. Term loans, revolvers, high yield, mezzanine debt, etc. The groups will usually work very closely with certain IB groups. However, the hours are a little less, and so is the pay.

 

Capital markets product groups are very similar between CB and IB. Coverage is where you see the biggest difference. IB Coverage is more focused on M&A connectivity with clients while CB Coverage is more focused on general capital raising especially bank debt.

In both cases, the capital markets groups are more concerned with origination and syndication of capital. The coverage groups are more concerned with advising on capital raising and M&A.

 

Commercial banking usually serves companies up to $1B-$2B in revenue (for example, JP Morgan's "commercial banking" services go up to $2B/rev companies).

Corporate banking is just commercial banking services for companies above the bank's commercial banking range (for example, JP Morgan Corporate Banking will serve clients with $2.5B+ annual revenue). It's the same services, but there might be more complexities involved.

Another illustration is Wells Fargo. Their Commercial Banking goes up to $500M/rev clients, whereas their Corporate Banking is $500M+.

 

Corporate banking is more for ledning towards large public traded companies. Commercial is towards middle market. In terms of products and services, there is nothing different, one just simply has larger deal sizes.

Array
 

The real question is you are comparing it with what other opportunities?

If it's between this or nothing, take it obviously (you will be 'viewed more positively' than if you have nothing)... while in Corp Bank, take on as close to a credit analyst role as possible.

But if you are choosing between "BB Corp Bank" vs "MM/Boutique M&A", take the MM/Boutique - you will actually have relevant experience and deals to talk about.

 

I'd just be prepared for a very typical interview - nothing out of the ordinary. I had a second round with Citi commerical banking in Dallas and was only asked behavioral and resume-based questions.

However, corporate may be a lot different than commercial

 
Dallasite787:

I'd just be prepared for a very typical interview - nothing out of the ordinary. I had a second round with Citi commerical banking in Dallas and was only asked behavioral and resume-based questions.

However, corporate may be a lot different than commercial

Corporate =/= commercial @ Citi. They're two different animals.

Know your corporate banking products and why corporate vs IB.

Calm down.
 

wouldn't expect anything too crazy corporate banking is very relationship oriented, so if you have any client facing experience, make sure you can speak about it well.

“Success means having the courage, the determination, and the will to become the person you believe you were meant to be”
 

As you are lateraling, surely your deal experience will dictate obvious opportunities. However assuming you have looked primarily at general purpose revolvers for investment grade companies, I'd imagine you have developed good credit analysis skills. These skills would be useful for any debt advisor, project financier or debt fund as you mentioned. However if you have had exposure to other products as well, you may be able to sell this (for example, DCM, LevFin). I imagine you also have some degree of valuations experience when calculating loss given default? Leverage this for a role in M&A.

My advice would be work out where you want to go first and then work backwards. Perhaps you need another six months in your role to help on a sub-investment grade DCM issuance so you can make yourself attractive to a hedge fund. Overall, you have banking experience which is a big plus, but the more directly relatable you can make it to the job you want the better.

 

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Calm down.
 

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16 IB Interviews Notes

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From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”