Completely lost...
I know that nobody likes to read long winded posts, so I'll keep this as short as possible. I'm looking to begin a career in finance. I think that I'd ideally prefer corporate finance but of course I'm certainly not against working at a HF or IB (though I think that's an impossibility when you read below).
I'm turning 29 this year, I have a bachelors in Communications from a private university in NYC. I graduated in 2008, a year late, with an abysmal GPA (2.3). I worked in public relations for a while, disliked it and left. I spent the next year and half working for an insurance company appraising auto claims and eventually moved onto the "other side" negotiating against insurance companies for an auto repair shop and manage it. That move was strictly for time and money. I have no coursework in finance aside from the core courses in economics and management my university require (both of which I did well in, despite my overall GPA). I will make no excuses for my terrible undergrad performance. It was simply immaturity and stupidity (not lack of intelligence just lack of care and understanding of future consequences)
I know reaching my career goals will require further education--which I'm all for. I know that the GMAT is also going to be a requirement but my worry is that even if I absolutely crush the GMAT my chances of getting into any respectable programs are slim-to-none given my embarrassing GPA and random work experience. I don't really know the best course of action. Second bachelors given my useless degree and bad GPA? Try for an MSF or MBA? I can't leave my job now for a finance related job (to build my b-school resume) because I don't have the qualifications to get hired for anything worth my time.
Any insight, direction and/or comments are much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Not to be a debbie downer, but you might be out of luck even if you kill the GMAT. First off, zero chance you get into a top 10. Your GPA and work experience are too far below the bar. Your reach schools would be something in the 15-20 range. If you absolutely crush the GMAT (>~730), I can see you get into schools like Norte Dame, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, etc. These schools certainly send people to be investment bankers, but its competitive, and you'll have a tough time on interviews when your classmates talk about being consultants or w/e, and you're talking about working at an auto repair shop (especially, unless I'm misinterpreting your blurb, since your career seems be going in a backwards trajectory).
He isnt asking for IB dude. Just finance related. Go to the best MBA school you can get into. Something like a top 20 should be enough to give you the reset you need and open up doors for many different finance roles there are (F500, PWM, AM, ER)
IMHO getting a mid-tier MBA and heading to corporate finance, fp&a type jobs is very doable for you. But it will be very costly and you need to think about cost benefit and risk/reward. You're talking two years out of work, plus ~$160k in explicit costs, at 30 years old. Best case scenario you land F500 corporate finance pulling down $100K all in? I guess it depends on what your current salary is and how much of an improvement that might be, but think carefully about it.
Sometimes you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. People will probably be retiring in their 70s when you are looking to retire, so you can start over in a new career path now and have a solid 40 years to work in it. But the finance industry values youth, and the higher level roles value experience gained as a youth.
I'll be completely honest--at this point, with your random work experience and abysmal GPA from what sounds like a random, no name college, the sun has set on your dreams of finance. You need to take a few weeks, search the internet forums high and low, talk to friends and family members and find a career path that you think you'll really like that is financially rewarding, a path that requires specialized training or apprenticeships.
As for high finance, the ship has sailed, my friend. I don't even think an 800 gmat score would get you in without a killer, killer, killer application. There are people who have gotten into elite MBA programs with very poor GPAs, but they've presented killer GMATs, amazing and relevant work experience/entrepreneurship, and a killer story and reason for wanting to obtain an MBA. I mean, I guess there's no reason not to try, but your time might be better served finding another rewarding career path--it never ceases to amaze me how many different ways there are to make a buck.
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/05/31/3268925/how-a-lafayette-high-school-…
It's possible
It's easier to become a doctor in your 30s than to break into high finance in your 30s. Although the academic process is one of the most difficult processes ever, you can literally go back to a community college and take prereqs, take the MCAT or go straight to a Caribbean school, and do well in medical school. If you're intelligent then nothing is stopping that process since there's an actual meritocratic process. With the OP's background, the chances are close to 0 that he'll be able to break into high finance. Perhaps corporate finance but after going into $200,000 in debt after quitting his job and going to a middle tier MBA program, if they'll admit him.
At this point it's a gamble to try for finance--I would hedge and go with another career that has an objective rather than subjective path.
Dude you are so negative. The guy didnt say he was gunning for PE HF or IB. There are a million different finance roles and he is only 2 years behind the average age. There are quite a few schools in the 20-25 range like Emory, Kelley, UNC that the OP may have a shot at if he gets a great gmat score. Those schools will be fine for resetting his career.
He is unhappy with his career and trajectory, so you cant start measuring cost/benefit. The guy wants finance and won't be satisfied. No one will even know the difference between a 30 year old and a 32/33 year old when it comes time to graduate MBA school.
I'm a believer than anyone can make it, as long as you work hard enough and are realistic about your goals. HBS might be out of range for you, but if you do some of the following I would think you might have a chance at a lower tiered school, which could still get you to where you want to go.
With some of the above you might have a shot at schools like Georgetown, UNC, Vandy, etc which would all be good enough to place you into Finance.
What are you currently doing now? How much money do you have saved? It kind of seems like you're just looking at B school for a way out of a life/career that you're not happy with. This isn't going to be a quick fix and not to be an asshole, but from your grades and career path so far, it doesn't seem like you are particularly motivated to be successful the way many of the other finance/consulting types are on this board.
For you to even have a shot at a good B school, you'll probably need at least a year or two in order to get all your ducks in a row ( GMAT, Alt Transcript, Strong Application, etc) basically something that will show you're willing to turn your life around. Are you willing to do that?
What people forget about on this board is that there are business schools that exist outside of the top 20. On WSO getting into a school thats not M7 or top 10 is a death sentence, whereas in reality many different tiers of B school exist for all types of people. There are B schools that will take you, but its going to take a lot of work, which in your life so far, doesn't seem like something you have wanted to do.
^This. Also don't forget, the path will be extremely tough and you're not guaranteed anything so be prepared for setbacks, rejections and failures. As long as you work hard, keep pushing and craft your application carefully, you definitely have a shot at some schools. Crazier things have happened in this world.
It's possible... It will require really hard work and perseverance. But it can be done
Agree with what has been mentioned. But why finance?
What about taking the time/money and investing in a small business or something similar? You seem like a smart person, have a grind it out mentality, who made a few bad decisions. But you are mature enough to acknowledge them, accept the blame, and are willing to work hard to rectify your situation.
This is a series of some of the worst advice ever given. The OP is dumber for having received it.
Care to explain? Haha this is coming from the guy who recommended that the OP go back to medical school in the Caribbean? Do you know how long medical school takes bud? Medical school isn't like business school in that everyone who applies finds somewhere to go. Strength of undergrad, GPA, and MCAT scores are all really important in getting into a medical school and there are many people who literally don't get into any medical schools. It would probably take another 2 years of schooling in hard classes. This isn't the type of intelligence it takes to do simple arithmetic and to run some excel models, classes like organic chemistry and the slew of biology classes that are needed require a level of intelligence, not to mention hard work. Then 4 years of school at ~ 50k a year plus a few years of residency on top of that. I would agree that becoming a doctor is more of a safe bet in terms of finding work after and making a consistently high income, but it is a ridiculously terrible suggestion for the OP who is 29, had a 2.3 in college, and stated that he wants to get into corporate finance.
OP is trying to make a major career change and is asking how he should go about doing it. MBA are often considered as great opportunities for those who are ready to switch careers thus many have given advice on MBA programs. A 2nd bachelors will do nothing as it won't help him place into Finance, and while an MSF would be ok, if the OP is in a position to go back for an MBA, that would give him a much higher likelihood to make it into finance and more importantly to place him into a job where he can make some real money as opposed to an MSF which would most likely place him into an entry level job.
I would say that with the exception of your poor advice, everyone on here has been pretty on point. Basically everyone said it might be doable and that the time and cost should be well considered, but that the OP would have a solid chance at a 15-20th ranked school should he decide to actively pursue an MBA.
Are you fucking kidding me? Do you even know how to read? I said it's EASIER to become a doctor in your 30s than to break into finance. This is objective fact. I obviously wasn't recommending that he do that, which is clear to anyone with half a brain who can read.
BTW, how in God's name do people come on here and say the OP has a good shot at a top 20 MBA program? He has horrible work experience and a low GPA. Unless he demolishes the GMAT and puts together an absolutely phenomenal application, he doesn't have a great shot at a top 30 MBA program. My co-worker is 28 with a 720 GMAT , had a 3.8+ GPA, and was promoted about 10 years ahead of her age; she got into Georgetown, and that's basically it. The OP, on the other hand, was appraising insurance claims after receiving a 2.3 GPA from a no-name school in NY. I mean, seriously. Get a freakin' grip, people.
The advice here is utterly moronic. He in no way should be trying to break into finance now. The OP needs to be considering other careers that have objective career paths that aren't youth obsessed.
Your one antidotal data point of your coworker is throwing off your perception. 3.8 gpa and 720 is about the median and she should have been able to get into better schools with the right execution. Also georgetown is a great school to get into - dont discount the top 25 programs.
Taken from their website: Georgetown mean gpa is 3.34 and mean GMAT is 688. Your coworker obviously limited his/her options. Stop giving terrible advice.
I have to go with @"td12". Why go for finance at all? The chances of IB or anything along those lines are slim and a finance job within a company would be a good paying job but after going deep into debt for bschool and skipping two years of income, the salary may not be high enough to justify the debt and opportunity cost.
Go the entrepreneurial route in something that you know and by that I don't mean try for the next billion dollar tech idea. Or look into franchise opportunities. The $150k+ you'd spend on an MBA could be put into something that you could own, can grow and have direct control over, unlike a job in corporate America. I have a few friends that I grew up with who went to no-name colleges, or didn't even graduate, spun their wheels aimlessly in their 20's and started or bought businesses/franchises and make very good money now. And I'm talking about simple businesses.
I highly doubt a guy working at an auto body repair shop could get into a place like Georgetown. Particularly given the grades maintained in college. Some people are assuming he has a shot if he gets a 750+ GMAT, but what makes anyone believe that is attainable for the OP?
Most are making this too complicated.
You can get into a lower-tier MBA school for a one year(3 semester) program, get above a 3.2, network and realistically still get a good corporate finance gig. The biggest thing I would say is be very specific about where you want to go company wise, then target schools that they recruit from.
My best advice would be to go to a school like that, do well and target getting a job at an insurance company in their corporate headquarters. You could spin most of your experiences into helping you excel in corporate finance there.
There's a difference between something that is possible, and something that is probable. You guys know finance, and should understand the concept of expected return. Spending months studying for the GMAT, paying $$$ to go to a 3rd/4th tier business school while not working for a year or two is a huge cost. From start to finish, there is a CHANCE things will work out and he'll find a decent corp fin job, but in all likelihood he'll be out time and money. There's way better options out there for someone like him. As Dickfuld mentioned, I don't think too many 2.7 state school kids are pulling a 750 GMAT, so in more likelihood he'll be a mid-600 GMATTER getting into a school outside the top-50 when he applies.
Maybe I'm getting older and cynical, but "You can do anything you put your heart to! :)" type of philosophy has caused so many of my friends to be waiting tables sattled with debt in their late 20's, and we should give the OP realistic advice/feedback.
agree with others saying while anything is possible, it's not likely and the amount of work you'd have to put forth for the potential return you could get would make me want to look elsewhere.
if it were me, I'd have informational interviews with people in the industry to help me decide if I really wanted to go into finance, or if it's just a pipe dream. then I'd ask their advice.
Hello? Has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't taken any courses in finance?
He writes
OP! Take some courses in finance! Economics is completely different, and management courses don't even count. Decide if you like finance courses and if they speak to you. Take more than one, but become fluent in finance before saying that you want to join the business. Otherwise, the whole idea doesn't make any sense. I'd also highly recommend taking some accounting courses too, because no matter what, they will help you in any career you choose, but particularly in finance or financial services biz.
@"Betsy massar"
Do you think the OP has a reasonable chance of getting into a top 25-ish business school, considering the information given?
Not until he takes some finance classes. Otherwise, no one -- no potential employers -- nor business school admissions peeps will see any reason to take seriously this goal:
I wonder if he is winding us up?
Thank you @"Betsy Massar". Sometimes what should be obvious needs to be pointed out by an authority figure (that's you, in case you were wondering), in order to become apparent. I 100% agree with you.
I'm going to take a contrarian view and say that unlike most of the robots on here, the M7 is mostly full of people who went to crappy UG, fluffed their resume and want to rebrand. Wish I had a $1 every time I meet a Wharton or HBS grad who went to U of Crapola and used B school to rebrand. I find it hilarious that this website constantly portrays this idea that you need a great GPA to get into the M7; every top MBA friend has a sub 3.5 GPA and some with even sub 3.0. A former roommate of mine went to CBS and he couldn't manage himself out of a paper bag; if he can go to a M7 school, then anyone can.
Start small, build an alternative transcript and do well in those classes, do well on GMAT and anything is possible. You want an opportunity to rebrand then show some effort, build an alternative transcript with quantitative and finance courses.
@ivyleaguevet Couldn't disagree more. Here's the median GPA at the Top 25 programs. Most are at or above 3.5, none are even close to 3.0. In fact, aside from Cornell, the BOTTOM TENTH PERCENTILE is above 3.0 at all the top 15 schools.
http://poetsandquants.com/2012/03/27/gpas-gmats-what-you-need-to-get-in…
People certainly get in from non-target schools, but top 25/50 undergrad colleges make up a large number of students. People from non-name target schools who gain admissions have great GPA's and great work experience.
GPA is less important than GMAT and work experience, but the top 20, and especially M-7, aren't letting in many people with sub 3.0 GPA's, especially from a bad college with bad work experience.
Yes, my friends are lying about their sub 3.5-3.0 GPAs and my attendance at their Thursday night mixers was a ghost. CBS, HBS, and Wharton are haunted!!!
My friends must have lied about their GPAs and my attendance at their Thursday night mixers was a ghost. CBS, HBS, and Wharton are haunted!!!
@ivyleaguevet so are you accusing all the business schools of lying about their reported GPA averages and bottom-10 percentile figures?Just trying to understand what your argument is. Below 3.5 is fine, plenty of people with 3.3-3.4 in business school, but below 3.0 is very very rare in the M7.
No, I'm saying simple arthimetic can account for 10% of your class having sub 3.0.
Ex. Look at CBS' class stats, 80% of its class has a range of 3.1-3.8
You really think that the other 20% is made up of 3.8+?! 10% on high end and 10% on low end of GPA scale. 10% of 750 enrollees is 75.
I'm merely trying to dispelled this idea that you can't have a sub 3.0 GPA and get into a M7 school; know plenty who went to HBS, CBS, Wharton, etc etc with sub 3.0. Is it the norm? No! Is it a rarity? No!
How many people do you know who went to a good business school who worked in an auto shop?
@"drew0716" If you have a good app, crush the GMAT (think 740+) and also do another exam or two (CFA level 1 would a good option), then you can definitely get into a good school. Definitely seen it happen before. Plus you can get away with going to an Emory or a Carnegie Mellon for Corp. Fin (unlike IBD).
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