The Forgotten IBD: Big 4 Corporate Finance - Q&A
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Hours?
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Are comp figures similar to traditional IB at a BB? 120k all in for first years?
Haha, is this serious...?
In general, are there good internship opportunities with these groups? I am very interested in IB, but I dont mind not being in some big BB, and I would like to go Corp Fin down the road, but if there are opportunities to begin immediately as an intern, please PM me or post. Thanks!
Intern opps are pretty good, from back when I worked in Big 4 they tend to extend a lot of return offers after junior year as long as you didn't fuck anything up too badly.
EDIT: I'm a dumbass. Ignore this. 4 years too late.
After doing a summer internship in audit and receiving a full time offer, is it possible to switch to the CF group right before starting full time, or do you need to work a year before moving internally?
I had two internships in a Big 4 advisory group (not transaction services). After expressing my interest to the recruiters and HR, I was able to interview with the TS group prior to starting full time. I am now starting full time in TS without having an internship or any other finance experience. I think it really helped that I communicated my interest in finance early on in my internships.
Do you know if the Big 4 in Europe also do not receive a lot of resumes?
Isn't most of Big 4 CF's role just doing FDD for IBs that are actually executing the deal? Do you pitch and execute your own deals? Heard work consists mostly of due diligence and not modeling.
What size transaction do you work on? What is the pitch conversion rate? Do you do a lot of pitching? Thanks!
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I could be wrong, but I'm going to call bullshit on this one. You're saying that there are people fresh out of undergrad, with no cpa or any other external qualifications who get 70k base, 10k sign on and a 24k bonus (Over 100k all in)? . And on top of that only work 55-65 hours/week?
Frankly, I'd be shocked if base was over 60 and bonus was more than 10.
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Edit: Decided my posts detract too much from an otherwise great thread.
^ Correct.
Big 4 hires armies of kids every year. You can check their pay online, family friend's son got 60k base in NYC, expect a 5k-10k bonus. No signing.
I am attending community college as an Accounting major. I am looking to transfer soon to 1 of 2 schools. Rutgers Newark Business School, or Montclair State University. I have a 4.0 (4.0 scale) gpa right now and am very confident I can maintain after I transfer. My question is which school will open up more opportunities? Does it really matter which school I attend as long as I maintain a solid GPA and obtain my CPA license? I would really like to work for a big 4 firm once I graduate and eventually work my way up.
Thank you.
Non-target BS/MSA > Big 4 Audit (1/2 a year in)> CF. How can I make this happen?
I would suggest you network internally with your CF group, demonstrate an interest, and see if you can skip the route through Transaction Services like I previously mentioned.
I'm just curious about something, and I hope I can explain this right, because your post leaves me a little buggard. You seem perplexed why your Big 4 firm (or any Big 4 firm) isn't getting near enough the attention from prospective applicants for Advisory, yet most Big 4 firms recruit from probably 10 times the number of schools as most BBs or MMs. Can it not be that your firm simply isn't sourcing enough talent from their already large talent pool?
From personal experience, no one from any of the Big 4 firms I networked with last fall ever mentioned Advisory (M&A services, Business Valuations, ect.), only tax or audit. I asked one recruiter, and it came off from him that unless you were in San Fran, New York or Chicago, Advisory groups (such as IBD) are non-existent. Is that true? If it is, wouldn't it be easier to reach out to other area/offices for potential hires than trying to source from the outside. From what I've read, doing IBD work seems hardly any more complicated or hard to teach compared to advanced or sector specific audit or tax, yet it sounds like people only laterally move into Advisory only after going into TAS, which is only after going into Tax or Audit. This is one of things that, personally, turned me off to a Big 4 Advisory. Since I'm going for an graduate accounting degree (my non-target doesn't offer a graduate level finance degree or else I'd do that), it would seem at least a 3-4 year process to even get into Advisory or your IBD group. I would have better luck trying for a target or semi-target MBA program and recruit via their network.
I guess I'm just wondering why you're wondering why no one thinks of Big 4 for an IBD analyst/associate gig. If the recruiters had offered such a thing to me (or even an SA opportunity) I probably would have jumped on it. But it never came up. I think that's one of the main reasons for the seemingly lackluster interest your group is getting. I'd love to hear your thought on that.
Edit: I see you were talking corp finance and I IBD, but as far as I know most Big 4 also have M&A services, Business Valuation, ect. My reference was to anything of that nature at would fit under the "Advisory" roof, such as Corp Fin.
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In your opinion then, what would be the best way for someone like me (non-target student, decent GPA, MACC student, wants to work in IBD/M&A/Corp Fin straight away) get into a group like yours. Do you recruit? Or have a recruiter to talk to? Do you look at pure accounting students, or just finance or acct/finance focused students?
I also get the impression that a large number of people on here see IBD as a stepping stone to better opportunities (AM, HF, PE). Do you see a lot of people jumping ship after two years for things outside the Big 4, and if so where do you see them jumping to? Or if not, why do you think that's not the case as with other banks?
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what are the chances of getting stuck in Audit? The path that you have outlined is pretty much Audit > TAS > CF, right? What happens if you don't lateral into TAS and eventually into CF? How hard is it to make those moves if you have your sights set on CF from day 1?
Are these positions only for those with some working experience or do you guys take entry-level people straight out of undergrad or MSF?
Traditionally our group only brought in experienced hires but has now expanded to on-campus recruiting
Strictly U.S. - is there a consensus on which Big 4 firms and offices are the strongest for CF?
IMO, Deloitte followed by KPMG
Do you travel alot? Any advice for Big Four Tax who is bored with tax and very intrigued by Big Four Corporate Finance?
Travel is minimal and less than Consulting and Tax/Audit. I'd say I'm out of the office traveling 2-3 days a month for pitches, kick off meetings, management presentations, etc. One nice perk is we do a number of international deals, so you do have the opportunity to travel abroad.
I would suggest you take a modeling class, see if you can access CapitalIQ within your group, etc. to demonstrate you have more than just a passing interest in M&A. Then network internally and try to get a conversation with a senior banker to demonstrate your interest. There is no hard and fast rule that you have to come through Transaction Services, so this is worth a shot.
Awesome Post... So your comp number is for Analyst or Associate pay? Do a lot of people analysts/associates/project managers/etc. have CPAs? It is an Accounting/Audit firm primarily but a finance function.. just curious
Thanks for bringing this to light. What is the timeline for FT Advisory jobs? Too late for May grads?
I came in as an experienced hire, so I'm not familiar with the hiring cycles. Our group hires year-round but that's largely cause we're smaller than the other LoS.
It'd be perfect you can tell me what LoS is, can't figure it out at all.
Given that these CF/IBD arms at Big 4 are so small (i.e. like a boutique investment banking firm), what/how would one go about breaking in at the analyst level?
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Thanks a lot for bringing up this thread. Without it we would have never known the Corp Fin of Big4.
Question: Do you think the big4 in Asia, esp. Hong Kong, would have such Corp Fin presence?
I am from Asia and all the Big 4s have CF practice here. In fact the size of CF practice here in Asia can easily match the top 3 IBs
As per my conversations, a CF practice in Big 4 can be summarized like this (At least in Asia): - At starting level base salary is about 15%-20% lower than BBs & MMs. However the gap increases as you move up. - Bonus is mostly between 15%-60%. It increases as you move up - Working hours are pretty chilled out (in IB terms). As onemanwolfpack pointed out ~55-60 hours in most of the weeks. Only few weekends you are working. Rarely alltnighters.
Work is typical IB work, however you will be working on very few transactions in parallel. Additionally more people are involved in a single transaction as compared to what you would see in a BB or MM.
You will sometimes find really smart people also in a Big 4 because work-life balance is great.
I know our firm has offices in China, Japan, Vietnam, Singapore, Russia, Korea, and a Middle East office.
Hey thanks for this awesome post! I was thinking about this a lot recently. Currently in Freshman year, went to NYC for winter break with finance club, like every other guy obsessed with finance, and met with senior partners in Big 4 M&A. It seemed like they were doing sexy work, actually doing deals without acting as tax consultants to BB's which is the misconception i went in with. So summer after soph year = 2014, I'm thinking of doing this. M&A advisory at Big 4 firm. Got my in too. So how different will the internship be compared to BB and what is the emphasis on accounting over finance in these firms?
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Great thread! Question: Do you see a lot of people jumping from TS to CF within the same company and to other companies? Question: I'm looking master programs (european student here) in europe, what should I focus on and is there a preference for major (accounting, finance, (financial) management) in TS or CF?
Thanks!
I currently work for the CF department in a Big 4 company in Continental Europe. Most of the people, I would say >95%, have majored in accounting, finance, economics, management or business administration. There are always some exceptions though. However, I don't know how important the choice of the major is in the UK. In my opinion the choice of the major is more important for TS as you have to have at least a couple of accounting courses.
Regarding the other question, I can't properly answer it, as I only have been working for 6 months for this company.
Thanks. A follow-up; how much does Big 4 care about prestige of the university you attended? Any minimum requirements on grades? What's the interview process like?
TS to CF is a pretty common jump. TS still looks for accounting majors; CF is more open to a number of backgrounds.
Thanks for the thread wolfpack, I was waiting for someone to do this (almost did it myself). I am also in a Big 4 IBD group, valuations though. There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding opportunities within Big 4 firms, mostly the firm's fault. Most recruiting doesn't understand these groups and what they do. You have to be active on your own in seeking them out. They are also very small groups (usually less than 30 people per major city). Valuations doesn't do capital raising or deal sourcing, we concentrate on deal value (what is basically fairness opinions but since SOX we can't call them that) or traditional PPA's, common stock vals etc. Deal value transactions are typically in the 100m - 2b space where a buyer isn't using a bank/financing on their own cash and need a banking team. PPA's, common stocks, big tax restructuring vals are typically in the 200m - 20b+ space. You definitely see all a bulge bracket IBD banker would, and most of the time do the same work, just don't work the hours. Hope this is helpful. Cheers!
Hah, well said. My school was a major target for the Big4 and when I was going through FT recruiting. I tried asking our campus recruiters about CF opportunities and they seemed like they had no idea what I was talking about.
Anyway, my question for the thread:
Would you say there's a pretty diverse background among experienced hires, or are most from an IBD background already? I know you said your background was CB, but was that typical or more of an exception that you broke in? Great thread, appreciate it.
Within our group, we have a few former ex-commercial bankers, a few ex-investment bankers, a few college hires, and a few internal transfers from the TS group. So yes, pretty diverse group of backgrounds.
Great post! Thanks for all of the discussion so far.
Would you mind speaking about your commercial banking position and how you transitioned to where you are now?
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onemanwolfpack:
Question: Going to work for a boutique IBD firm in their TAS valuation group. What are the chances of me switching over to their IBD group within the first couple years?
Bit curious: why did you leave commercial banking and elect to go into F500. From my knowledge F500 positions pay less than CB and have slower career progression. Can you talk some more about your experience with CB and F500 and why you decided to make the transitions? What was your plan from the beginning or did you simply change industries until you found something you liked?
Had a college internship at the F500. Accepted a FT offer in commercial banking cause I liked the idea of working across a number of industries and deals. Moved into investment banking cause everyone at the CB left work at 5 and were happy with modest raises and compensation - I wanted to put more in/get more out of my career in my early years, and this has allowed me to do that in the nice medium hours/medium comp range.
I know there are CF offices in Atlanta, Austin, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, NYC, LA, and Detroit.
I misunderstood your initial post, I thought "CF analyst" meant corporate finance in F500.
What was the base salary + bonus for the CB role? Were you at a BB? The figures you are quoting for Big 4 CF sounds very similar to CB pay. I know you can make around 70k base + 10-20k bonus in corporate banking as a 1st-2nd year and around 60-65k base +10% in commercial banking.
Is it an easy transition from CB to Big 4 CF? How did you come across the opportunity, was it primarily networking?
Bit curious: why did you leave commercial banking and elect to go into F500. From my knowledge F500 positions pay less than CB and have slower career progression. Can you talk some more about your experience with CB and F500 and why you decided to make the transitions? What was your plan from the beginning or did you simply change industries until you found something you liked?
Also: what areas of the US has Big 4 CF groups? Is it just NYC or every major metro?
Continental Europe here, feel free to shoot if you want to know something about Big 4 CF in this area...
Hi,
I'm about to enter my 2nd year doing Acc&Fin at a top 5 UK Uni, and am really interested in applying for a CF internship this summer at a Big 4 firm. How did you land into CF (progression form Uni) and how have you found deal flow to be these last 6 months?
Thanks!
The deal flow, at least within my group, is pretty stable. Anyway, it is not just M&A but you do a lot of other things like valuation or business planning.
Wow, thanks for this thread for insightful. I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer.
Is the starting salary $70K straight out of undergrad, do they recruit out of undergrad?
What prior experience do you need to have if your trying make the jump to TAS or CF at big 4? Would Public Finance investment banking cut it at a boutique? I see that you do commercial banking were the skills transferable?
How is the recruiting process, is it year round, when would be the best time to look for a position at a big four? Are positions posted on companies website or Indeed, Doostang
How are the interviews like?
Thank you.
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First, great thread! I'm working in Big4 CF (Continental Europe) and there is so much BS around on WSO. This thread sheds some light.
To clarify the questions about strengths/deal number and different regions: There is no general answer which is right for all regions. Big4 CF deal flow (or in general transactions business which means M&A, Transaction Services, Valuation) and their ranking varies with different regions - heavily.
America: OP has already said everything. To benchmark US Big4 CF business: Its relatively small compared with other regions. Deloitte, KPMG and PwC same reputation IMO, but perhaps OP has better insight here when ranking Deloitte no. 1!
Europe or even EMEA: Big4 CF and whole transaction business is much bigger than in the US. Looking at league tables in terms of deal number/volume (of course not deal value) shows the difference between US and Europe. US --> You won't find Big4 CF in top 10 usually. Europe --> Since a longer period, Big4 CF is usually ranked within top 10. Top 4 often DB, MS, Rothschild and GS, then followed by PwC as no. 1 in Europe, quickly followed by KPMG and Deloitte. With some distance, but usually in top 10 as well E&Y.
Same accounts for Asian Big4 CF, position and strengths very similar to Europe.
Perhaps, OP can give some insight here: Why is the US business so small compared to Europe and Asia? I have heard that due to stricter legal rules/acts, Big4 once sold large parts of their CF business and, therefore, are much smaller today. Is this right?
Recruiting in Europe: As a consequence, European Big4 CF business is better known and has higher reputation. In Europe, recruiting straight from undergrad and M. Sc. programs is typical. We have experienced hires as well, but most "input" is via undergrad/graduate recruiting. Competition among applicants has even become stronger since BB banks or banks in general have suffered from the recent crises. Top grades/top GPA, finance or accounting major, good internships needed...not so important is target/non-target (much less important in Cont. Europe in general).
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Really helpful- thanks!
What about restructuring in TS and specifically in Europe ? I see some internship for restructuring in the UK but in cities like Manchester or Leeds, nothing in London. Does office location matter ? What are the exit opps in Europe for someone with Big4 restructuring (or TS in general if you don't know) experience ?
Perhaps I can give you some specific information about Europe as someone working in European Big4 Transactions Business.
At first quick information how European transaction divisions of Big4 are typically organized - important to understand the following explanations: We have the typical service lines: audit, tax, advisory. In Europe, there is usually a large "transactions division" within the advisory service line. This transactions department includes 4 types of services: 1. M&A (directly called M&A, not "Corporate Finance" like in America --> doing lots of MM M&A deals), 2. Valuation (doing complex valuation for M&A, but mainly own business valuations for Fairness Opinions, Purchase Price Allocations...+ goodwill impairment --> every valuation you can imagine), 3. Transactions Services (every type of due diligence) and 4. Restructuring/Business Recovery (strategic, operational and financial restructuring for all types of firms).
Now, Restructuring is direct part of the transactions divisions - due to the very same skill set you need and tasks you have to do when restructuring a company. Restructuring departments usually exist in all "larger" cities within each European country. So, there will be restructuring in Manchester, Leeds, London, Birmingham etc.! But recruiting often takes place for specific locations directly. If you don't find application possibilities for London, you have just to wait until a new spot opens up. To put it in a nutshell: Yes, office location matters. But every larger city usually has a restructuring division. Watch out for job offers on Big4 homepages.
Recruiting for restructuring usually consists of campus recruiting/hiring undergrad/grad and a bit more experienced hires - e. g. people direclty from specific industries, because especially in operational restructuring industry knowledge is key.
Exit opps: Some go to other restructuring shops or insolvency practitioners, some go to banks (e. g. banks have own departments for distressed loans...guys with restructuring knowledge are welcome), some join the company which has been adviced recently. I have even seen a guy who did financial restructuring getting a LevFin offer from a bank. Finally, everything related to distressed investing (PE doing distressed deals etc.) is a decent exit option. Conclusion: You gain a broad skill set, therefore, exit opps are broad. In addition, there are fewer "typical exit opps/ways" than in US. You have broad options and you should use them.
Exit opps for other parts of transactions business are somewhat different.
Thanks, SB for this. Would you mind elaborate what you mean by "other restructuring shops", in your opinion is it possible to go to places like Rothschildor HLHZ ? Moreover we always say on this website that if you want to go to PE/HF you must do IB or MBB, are you saying that is it possible to do big4 restructuring => HF/PE ? Is it common ? For now on I'm not interested in PE/HF and I would like to stay in restructuring but I don't want to close too many door.
any knowledge on hiring in the uk?
would someone with solid f500 experience post graduation doing vaguely relevant work be viewed? also have dat top 5 degree
Again some direct information for/from Europe.
Recruiting/hiring differs in Europe: Usually, UK does lots of on-campus recruiting and has certain application deadlines for their programs. More "US style hiring". Continental Europe does fewer on-campus recruiting, but hires lots of undergrads/grads as well. Via typical online application etc. etc.! Usually, Cont. Europe Big4 don't have any application deadlines. They are hiring throughout the whole year, no certain deadlines etc.! Just apply if there are open positions (and there are open spots nearly every time).
Big4 is very interested in guys with industry expertise. Reason: After round about 5-7 years within Big4, you have learnt the whole M&A/DD/valuation/whatever business. After that, you start leading project groups and you do the whole "relationship management" with clients. Therefore, you specialize within one or two industries - e. g. you then focus on M&A deals within automotive or retail. --> prior industry knowledge highly appreciated!
Depending on your work experience (how much years?), you could either apply for entry level jobs ("consultant"). You usually get promoted much quicker if you have prior work experience (e. g. only one year as consultant, not the typical 2-3 years). Or you could watch out for experienced hires - but you lack some of the skills required for higher positions in transactions business..! Might be problematic.
Conclusion: Every Big4 has very good recruiting departments with info hotlines. Go to the websites, call the hotlines, describe your profile. They will give you direct information how to apply (e. g. apply for two different positions).
You mentioned something about utilizing the international offices as an opportunity to work abroad. How common is this? Is it difficult to get the company to sponsor the Visa?
This is actually quite easy to do within my firm, and is strongly encouraged. I am due to ship off to an emerging market for 2 years later this year, and we currently have a few associates abroad in other offices. This is one of the major perks of the firm, IMO.
This does really depend by the firm and the country. I am in Continental Europe and in my country my firm has around 60 people. Only 1 was able (not that every one was asking for it though) to move to another country for a secondment (12/18 months). At least where I am, it is more common and easy within Audit and Transaction Services (which is closer to Audit than to CF). I think the major problems, at least at my firm and in my country, are: - you can ask to go abroad when you are manager or above and some people after 5/6 years of CF experience just want to exit the industry or set up a family and, therefore, are not interested in moving abroad; - to go abroad, you need top valutations (1 or 2 out of 5) but if you are good the senior people working with you do not want to lose you and teach what to do to someone else...
I don't think VISA is an issue anyway. If the senior people you are working for want you to go, the company will provide it.
Does big4 IBD take laterals from sales, asset management, ER, or other non IBD/CF roles? Would they make a third year sales guy a 1st year analyst, or would they not even bother. Reason I ask, I'm three years in to sales and trying to decide between getting some experience in IBD (if possible) or just camping out where I am and getting promoted before going to bschool.
Is it feasible?
Difficult question IMO!
Laterals from ER or AM might be possible - depending on what you have been doing. Prior knowledge in analyzing companies, performing business valuation, knowledge in accounting etc. are valuable and might be the reason why Big4 become interested. One guy working with me is a former equity researcher with (round about) one year experience. He has decent knowledge about company valuation and deep industry know how - he adds value to the group and was hired as first year analyst (but will get promoted faster usually). Nevertheless, you need a good story in order to explain why you want to switch to M&A - e. g. transforming your knowledge about valuation etc. in order to give "real advice" to companies instead of a capital markets focus incl. advising investors.
Laterals from sales with more than just a year of experience are highly unlikely IMO. I have never seen or heard of a sales guy in Big4 CF/transactions up to now. What skills do you have that make you valuable? Sales skills are very specific and, in contrast to ER or AM, don't have a link to M&A or valuation business. Probably (especially in the US) going to business school, getting an MBA and then trying to restart would be the best option.
If you are from the US can you apply to work in Europe directly rather than first working at the US firm for several years and then transitioning? If so, is it a difficult process?
Can you describe the recruiting efforts for Treasury Advisory and how to join this group? Does the Big 4 look for long-term experience in treasury consulting before adding to the team? Any specific cities this group would be based from? I assume Chicago, NY, SF. How heavy of an accounting background would you need? Could the accounting background be supplemented with treasury ops, commercial underwriting, and corporate finance?
I think one thing onemanwolfpack left out is the fact that the majority of CF subs of larger CPA firms don't recruit directly out of undergrad. They may recruit MBA students, but from my conversations and exploration, they always required some type of previous work experience, whether that was on the Transaction Advisory side or previous M&A work.
Again, I am not saying it has not or will never happen, but it is far more rare. The CF teams are lean and there are fewer analyst positions from what I've seen.
He did address that to some extent earlier... and Deloitte CF did fall OCR this year for analyst positions for undergrad/MSF/MACC students. They have also been posting for off-cycle analyst position on university career websites.
Got it. I actually can't speak as much for Deloitte, even though I believe it may be the biggest group. I had experience w/KPMG, E&Y & BDO.
Rudi,
Thanks a lot for your insights in the thread this far, definitely appreciated. I am definitely interested in Big 4 CF roles. I would love to live in England for at least a summer and think it would be a great experience as I have only been out of the U.S. once. How abundant are internships in high finance for Big 4 (as opposed to audit, tax, advisory)?
Thanks, glad to hear that!
For internships the same differences between Cont. Europe and UK apply which I've mentioned for full time recruiting: UK is much more standardized than Cont. Europe!
This means that UK Big4 has the typical summer internship programs, while Cont. Europe has summer internships and in addition recruits interns throughout the whole year. Therefore, UK Big4 have specific deadlines for applications. They usually offer internships for the whole transactions department, this includes M&A/Corporate Finance! But entry requirements are tougher (e. g. usually at least UK 2:1 degree or comparable) and fewer intern positions are available than in audit or tax because teams are smaller. But they definitely have summer internships in M&A, Restructuring etc.!
Example from PwC UK: http://www.pwc.co.uk/careers/student/graduateopportunities/financial-ad… --> click Corporate Finance/M&A --> then especially "What we look for" and "Dates for your diary"! (visit the other Big4 websites as well!)
Conclusion: You should definitively have a chance, take a shot! But you need a solid degree, you won't have a chance if you are in your first year, prior M&A experience welcome, be aware of the deadlines! Off cycle internships are possible as well. Just call the HR department and ask for opportunities. If you have a (very) good CV, Big4 might become interested (that's how I got my first Big4 CF internship - but this is easier for Cont. Europe due to lower standardization).
This thread is almost all about the situation in Europe, can someone tell me where can I find more information about how IB business is carried out in the Big 4? How the CF in big four is ranked compared with other BBs? and what are the exit opps for those coming out of CF in Big 4?
For rankings, you can go on Thomson Reuters Deal Making Intelligence or you can use a specific database like Mergermarket if you have access to it. The exit opps really depend on the market conditions. Once upon a time, it was quite common to lateral to Investment Banking and sometime to MM PE shops. Now it is more hard since the market is shrinking but you can still find some opening all around the year for BB or boutiques targeting people coming from Big 4 (CF, Valutation, Transaction Services) who qualified (for UK they usually require you to have the ACA). Some other people end up in corporate development or FP&A (with an higher focus on strategy and planning over finance and accounting).
Funny, just the other day I went to the career fair for Deloitte Open House. I headed over to the FAS table and met someone who was in corporate finance. That person specifically worked as an M&A Intern and told me that Deloitte almost only hires from target schools for their M&A division and that it was really small. The vast majority of schools that Deloitte recruits for its FAS is mainly for valuation type jobs. I believe the guy networked really hard to get his spot.
As a current sophomore intern in the tax department of a Big 4, how would you advise getting my next internship in advisory or CF? I am a finance and accounting major
Internships for undergrads, within any transaction group, are hard to come by. I just made the move from advisory (Risk) to Valuations (TS) and I think networking was the key. During my two advisory internships I made it clear to my partner of my interest and then he connected me with partners from TS who eventually interviewed me for the job.
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great posts!
More curious about the US side than UK/Continental Europe, but, of course, any perspective is appreciated:
-How is the Corp Fin/M&A group structured? Are there product/sector lines like in a larger IBD, or are most people generalists?
-How does business break down between M&A and other services like restructuring, divestitures, IPOs or issuance?
-What are the big differences between corp fin, business valuation, asset valuation and transaction services? Some seem much more accounting oriented than others.
-What is the interaction between the Corp Fin (or more broadly, Financial Advisory) group and the rest of the firm like?
I know that is a lot of questions, so please don't feel obligated to answer all or any of them. Just looking for perspective/ideas.
Big 4 recruits like crazy at my school, but recruiters and professionals alike never bring up these opportunities/groups
In my opinion, there aren't fundamental differences regarding the actual business of Big4 CF or in broader terms transactions between US and Europe. As already mentioned, there are differences in the size of the business, the way of recruiting, the possibility to get a spot as direct undergrad/grad hire etc., but Big4 transactions has a very similar structure around the globe.
The global structure or the macro view show product lines: 1. M&A/CF, 2. Valuation, 3. Transaction Services, 4. Restructuring (or something comparable, depending on the Big4 company)
Big4 CF has industry sector lines. From Level 3-5 (manager/senior manager/partner) you start focusing on specific sector lines. Level 1 and 2 (analyst and associate) usually perform work for different senior managers and, therefore, work within far more than just one industry line. So, the higher you move up the ladder, the more industry specific your day to day business will be.
Same accounts for the other transactions groups, e. g. transaction services will usually have one group focusing on industry clients (and later on more specific specialization) and one group focusing PE clients.
US style might be somewhat different, because groups are smaller. Industry focus might be less important. Same should apply for smaller European locations like Austria or Swiss, where groups are smaller as well and people usually won't have an industry focus - they are usually generalists.
IMO, both questions are very similar.
Corporate Finance is doing classic MM M&A deals - buy-side and sell-side advisory. Like every boutique or BB, but with focus on MM. Larger deals might occur, but are rare. Business Valuation focuses on everything which is related to a transaction in combination with business valuation. Usually, they will do Fairness Opinions, Purchase Price Allocations (PPA), Goodwill Impairment, valuation for IPOs or they will help the M&A department when valuation gets more sophisticated. The business valuation guys are called "valuation generalists". Asset Valuation is a specific part of Business Valuation. When doing a PPA, you need to value all the machines, all the plants, the property etc. You need specific knowledge for these valuations. Therefore, experts perform these valuations: Machinery is usually done by engineers and property/plant by guys who have studied something in the field of real estate. As a consequence, these guys are often called "valuation specialists". Transaction Services is only doing due diligence: financial, commercial/market, operational, legal, etc.!
M&A has few accounting orientation. Valuation is somewhere between finance and accounting: Your methods mostly come from finance, but the reason why you perform analysis and in some cases the way the valuation is carried out is determined by accounting rules (e. g. within IFRS --> IFRS 36 for impairments etc.). Transaction services usually has the highest share of accounting knowledge and work...you analyse the statements and look for risks/chances of a deal, but you perform forecasts and relate all these things to company value as well. Everthing is deal based, but the accounting part is very different.
Very few interactions! Usually, M&A/CF has no interaction with the rest of the firm. Often, CF/FAS even has a different legal structure. Valuation is usually the group with most interaction to other parts of the firm, especially with Tax M&A (service line tax) and the accounting guys who transform the accounting of a client after a deal (e. g. switch from local GAAP to IFRS) because the latter need input from a PPA or impairments. And, Tax M&A in general, is the group which has the most contact to FAS/the transactions department.
For the reasons, see the posts above. US Big4 CF is smaller, has fewer analyst positions etc.!
+1 SB to you, onemanwolfpack, for making this thread and for your answers
Is the group being discussed here specifically "Corporate Finance"? because on 2/4 websites, the CF unit falls under FAS, separate from M&A (even though in the description they are doing the same thing).
I'd appreciate a PM from someone in the Big4 currently who can comment on those groups in mode detail - I'm currently within the consulting practice at a Big4 and am fine with my current role but am looking to lateral within the firm to a CF role once I am promoted to senior. I can put out feelers to folks in my organization about these roles but I don't want to express too much interest without having some more detail.
Two posts above yours is a (somewhat) detailed description of the different groups which usually fall under Big4 FAS (sometimes called "transactions" as well). Which further questions do you have which could be answered in a "non-confidential way"/available for all other users?
PM sent!
I'm curious as to what is the most respected group within the broad umbrella of Transactions Services? (Valuation, M&A, Restructuring, CF??) Also which one of these roles is going to give an analyst the best skill set for a prospective move into IBD?
A more interesting thing - from my perspective - is: What makes the guys of the different departments valuable? Valuation is known for guys with impressive technical + practical knowledge about valuation, building models, ability to review business plans and industry knowledge in order to review company forecasts. In addition, they have a solid understanding how a deal is done. M&A and transaction services are the "sweat shops" within Big4. People who are willing to go the extra mile and having massive cojones. ;-) Transactions Services is sometimes called "audit group of the transactions department" because lots of work when doing a due diligence is standardized, means tiking lists, and includes lots of accounting.
If you would force me to give a ranking, I would put valuation + M&A at the top, followed by transactions services with some distance. This excludes restructuring, because restructuring business isn't really comparable to the other three truly deal oriented groups.
IMO, the perfect skill set with multiple exit opps would get created if you spend some time in M&A, some time in valuation and some time in transaction services. After these stations you would have gained a perfect understanding of a complete deal from different perspectives and you would have gathered a ton of valuable knowledge. But managing to work at all groups within 2-4 years is usually difficult...but theoretically possible (and sometimes even forced by Big4 via structured programs or secondments at other transactions groups).
Thank you to all for the insights and perspectives. Very applicable to my situation and definitely an angle I hadn't considered before.
Anyone who says WSO has gotten less helpful just isn't asking the right people/questions.
Could anyone illustrate pointers to bring up in a big 4 interview regarding why big 4 corporate finance over working with corp finance at a bank (IBD)? In general, how would one demonstrate preferences working in big 4 corporate finance instead of IBD in a bank?
Based on the information others have provided: -Maybe talk about middle market space (more exposure to a deal/process) -Consistent client flow from audit/tax? -Not being as much of a brutal/sweatshop environment (if you are junior) -All the big 4 are a network of offices, so maybe talk about international opportunities (or their large euro presence) -If you've met any Big 4 people, talk about how you liked them much more than their BB IBD counterparts (true or not is up to you...)
I would be curious to hear what answers people with experience might have.
I'd say this is pretty accurate. I'd go with:
-Opportunity for the close deal interaction of a boutique with the resources of a global firm -International deal exposure and opportunity to work abroad -Ability to build a network across multiple lines of services and offices -Work hours is true, but I'd be careful bringing this up in an interview
During my interviews this question was asked many times. If you have the CV and credentials to chose between BB IBD and Big4 CF, be prepared that this question will come up. Big4 CF is aware of the "war for talents" and the massive competition from BB and boutiques when getting the smartest guys. They don't want to hire people who failed at BB interviews and, as a consequence, need Big4 as 2nd choice. They are looking for people who understand what makes Big4 different from BBs. They want people who fit into the culture.
There has already been some very good advice, but this question is so important in interviews that you should give an answer which impresses the interviewer and fits into your story! It's a dealbreaker...
To give a good answer, you have to consider some points:
Integrity: You have to believe in the words you're going to say. So, if you believe that Big4 IBD or transactions is bullshit in comparison with BB or elite boutique IBD, most interviewers will realize this. This usually means "autoding", because you can't make a bigger mistake than making someone believe that you don't respect what he's doing. On the other hand, convincing Big4 CF guys that you truly believe that they do a great job as well will put you ahead of most other candidates - people like to be "loved"/liked.
Realize who you are interviewing with: Usually, Big4 interviews are done by senior managers or partners (so the most seinor people). Apart from technicals, these guys fit into Big4 culture perfectly. It becomes even more important to have a good story which automatically answers your posted question.
Understand what makes Big4 CF/transactions different: 3a) hard facts: Very good advice in the two posts above, perhaps some additions (IMO the most important point on the hard fact side):
- Remember Big4 transactions divisions mentioned wihtin this thread (M&A/CF, Valuation, Transaction Services, Restructuring). Especially when competing against MM boutiques but also when comparing with BB, Big4 are able to deliver all services along the deal value chain: strategic advisory before the deal (other advisory group), advising during the deal (M&A), performing DD (Transactions Services), doing all important valuations like FO or PPA + goodwill impairments in the following years (Valuation), Post Merger Integration (Transaction Services), and help in case of financial distress (Restructuring). Plus, there are accounting guys who often transform the clients financial accounting from local GAAP to IFRS or integrate the accounting systems of the buyer and seller. One company can offer all services which might create synergies, e. g. if the same firm which has done the Buyer DD carries out the post merger integration, thereby using all the knowledge about risks and chances from the DD to set up a perfect "100 day plan" for integration etc. etc.!
3b) soft facts: - Besides adding value to the client, the above enables you to "work along" the whole deal value and work with experts for every step when making a deal happen. You could stress that there all options for a long term career in Big4 transactions because ot these broad options, secondments etc.! KEY DIFFERENCE is that you aren't just hired for a two year analyst program. Usually, Big4 transactions programs aren't limited in time. You don't have do to a MBA or something comparable after the first two years. When doing a good job, you will get promoted. It's about loyality, no short term thinking.
I "used" this tactic in my fit interviews and this worked out very well. This shows that you understand the organisation of the company, that you fit into the culture AND that you keep adding value for the client in mind. These facts make you the perfect candidate (besides knowing technicals).
Great response- very thorough and definitely appreciated. Couple questions:
Is that 3A hard fact advantage (value along the whole transaction process and across client needs) constrained at all by regulatory issues (like not being able to do deal work if you are also consulting or doing audit)?
How often do people at the junior level get to work on different aspects of the deal? I guess my question is how often do your CorpFin/M&A guys do work with Transaction Services or valuation?
Thanks again Rudi!
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One other point to note during interviews is the ability to gain access to nearly every company in the U.S. Between the audit/tax/advisory relationships, I very rarely ever come across a company whom I cannot reach directly via a relationship in the firm. This is something the BBs cannot offer.
Thanks wolf pack. Career week just ended at my school, and I finally had something interesting to sat to Big 4 recruiters that I have known for 1+ years. I am not particularly optimistic about an internship, but it is at least something to keep in mind & pursue.
What are the stats on big4 CorpFin taking people from consulting at different firms, especially smaller ones? Is there a bias towards their own people? What percent of folks are trying to get to consulting from CF vs people trying to get from consulting -> CF?
Also: how is transferability across big4 CF, say from PWC->E&Y or vice versa?
This thread is almost all about the situation in Europe, can someone tell me where can I find more information about Asia as in how IB business is carried out in the Big 4 in that region? How the CF in big four is ranked compared with other BBs? and what are the exit opps for those coming out of CF in Big 4? I am from Asia and currently looking for the opportunities here
Hi guys,
Let me start by saying that this was such a great thread/post that I ended up making an account on WSO just to build on this discussion. This is a topic that's been driving me nuts for more than just a couple days (we're talkin years here). Normally I'd be concise, but I feel like I should give quite the back-story first.
So I'm a 3rd year undergrad at a "target" school, located in CANADA (yes up north with the eskimos and polar bears - I kid, its in Toronto), but was initially interested in audit & assurance. I was in the accounting specialist program in my school, got an internship with the Canada Revenue Agency (canadian equivalent of the IRS - US), worked as an income tax auditor last summer, and it was during that period I realized that audit was not what i thought it was (although I really enjoyed the CRA as it was more detective work with a bit of authority). Well, it was really around second year (exposure to actual fin. acct courses) that made me really think of what it meant to be a public auditor (ie. making the statements, not really analyzing comps/industries, etc.). Being hesitant of straying from this big 4 audit path, I made "SEVERAL" connections with the Big 4 in their audit & assurance groups, and was under the impression that audit could take you anywhere automatically (ie. banking, buyside, etc etc). Well, it wasnt until the summer that I sobered up and made the switch to finance, not necessarily to get into IB or PE, HF, etc (rather am trying to avoid that) but primarily because i wanted to be in a position to analyze businesses/industries/sectors on the job and develop sound business acumen (but attempt to avoid those 100 hr workweeks every week in IB at a BB). While I was networking for audit, I always came across deals/CF with the Big 4, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, NO ONE i talked to knew much about it. They were always certain that there was opportunity to move around, but never really gave specifics, so I took it at face value and assumed the same. After going through the internship with the CRA and talkin to a bunch of buds who are pursuing IB/Buy-side Fin., I realized how limited in scope acct was in terms of what I was really interested in, and I decided it was time to make the switch. Now this was also in time of the merger of the 3 separate accounting bodies in Canada (For those unaware, the Canadian Accounting Industry had 3 separate designations, the CA, CMA, and CGA, which are now being consolidated into the CPA). Prior to the merger, the CA (which I was pursuing) had A LOT** of prestige (relative to the US*) and seemed to have better exit opps into finance (given enrollment in CFA/networking, etc). With the merger, the accounting designation (IMO) is approaching dilution in the near future, as only target schools initially offered a direct path to the CA (while non-direct/college level programs now offer a longer path to it).
All this being said, I have known from the start of my 2nd year that I wanted to use the CA to move internally within the Big 4 into consulting/deals/CF. I later realized that a lot of audit hires tended to get stuck in audit with limited scopes of moving around (especially with the CPA merger complete) and decided more pressure = more motivation. But now* I'm confident that I want the finance route in, and am wondering how feasible it is to do so. I have a very close family friend whos been in PwC for 7+ years, great (entry to manager level) connections in EY, (ok-good) connections in KPMG (entry-manager again), and the remainder (so-so) with Deloitte (--note: these are all in audit except PwC). I've been out of touch with some connections since last summer, but do have their contact info and can easily cold-email them.
Having landed an internship with GE's FMP for this summer, with an 80-83% CGPA, enrollment in the CFA for june (which i knowingly expect to fail, but am doing so to gain experience and show commitment -- with full out plans on finishing it down the road), how feasible does the community think it is to get in as a recent grad/intern? I understand that the US has an extremely small team while the UK has a predominantly larger one but what are everyone's thoughts on Canada? I know they don't advertise on campus here, but they have rotational programs (2 yr internships) and direct entry programs listed on their website for consulting & deals/CF (ie. PwC, KPMG). Am I at an advantage with GE's FMP + CRA on my resume? What else should I do? (Note: I have significant extracurriculars ontop of all these, 2-3 this year, 1+ part time job last year). Is there a recruiting cycle for CF like there is for Audit? If so when is it? I
And my buddy from PwC wanted me to figure out exactly what route I wanted to go through before connecting me with people in either audit or CF (depending on what path I wanted to take) and recommended writing the CFA first. Sorry if this post was ridiculously long, I really want your opinions as the Big 4 has always appealed to me, and knowing that there's room for careers aside from audit (primarily CF) actually gives me hope with this ballsy career switch. Cheers!
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I guess a fair deal of that interest with big 4 advisory was routed in a bit of perceived stability, and the opportunity to do a cpa without getting stuck in audit really (if there was a possibility to jump right in from undergrad). It appeals to me the most as the work (im sure you could agree) appears to be insanely more interesting than audit, and the hours seem a bit more humane than traditional banking roles. But the more i look into it, the less likely it seems that they're willing to hire to these groups straight out of school. And yeah you're right, the internal competition from audit is quite discouraging to say the least.
I'm looking forward to GE, it's a summer position for now but you're right, a good role could provide great experience. Also ,would you happen to know if this internship could be leveraged to get into commercial/corporate banking as well at an undergraduate level? (As you mentioned working in commercial banking earlier)
@"onemanwolfpack" What are the prospects for someone who works in in the Valuation Services group of a mid sized accounting firm (ranked in the top 20 in the region), being considered for a CF role?
Does your title in your resume can be: "Investment Banking Analyst" or it will be "corporate finance Analyst"?
Great thread :)
Can you expound on the case pitch and final interview? I can prepare for brain teasers and technicals, but I have little experience in case study and valuation pitches. Is there a resource you would suggest for these interviews? Thanks!
Hey onemanwolfpack,
Thanks for the thread. I will be coming from a similar background (commercial banking analyst). I do have a few questions regarding corporate finance for the big 4 now that it is a few years after the original thread. Are most of the statements you made about comp, hours, working abroad the same today? Is it still realistic to go directly from CB analyst to the CF analyst role?
Thanks again for any help.
I'm considering to do an internal transfer from consulting to corporate finance. Any advice/suggestions? Thanks!
bump
corporate finance at Big 4 (Originally Posted: 06/21/2007)
What exactly do corporate finance people do at the Big 4 accounting firms. Why is this generally considered more "prestigious" than other Big 4 functions?
I can't really tell you what they do because I don't know.
The reason why it's more prestigious is because it's harder to get into and there are a lot less Corp. Fin. people than auditors and tax folks which is what most of the big 4 people are. Every year, the big 4 hire thousands of new auditors and tax people while they may hire only like a 1/10 of that for Corp. Fin.
EY hired at least 2000 auditors I believe in their last survey, so 200 is a exclusive lot. Not in my opinion. Multiply that times 4 and you've still got 800 positions available minimum.
I think it is probably more like 2-3%. Depends though, Big 4 Corp Fin is small in the US but huge in Britain from what I've heard.
A Big 4 Corp Fin departmant does work that is very similar to a middle market Ibank. The only difference that I would say is that its more diversified, at a middle market Ibank one would be assigned to a specific group such as M&A, but usually Big 4 advisory works on a bunch of different stuff.
Did work at a Big4 Corp Fin group for a while.
Out of about 180 auditors in my city (for my firm), we were about 8-9 people in corp finance, so it's more like 5% of the whole workforce
I have worked in a big 4 corp fin group and now I work in corporate development. The big 4 corp fin groups typically will assist companies from an accounting due dilligence perspective. For example, they may be engaged to sift through whatever publicly available information is out there looking for accounting red flags that good be a problem once the target is acquired.
Although the big for corp fin guys like to try and make everyone else in their firm think they that our out there "doing deals" deep down they know that they are really just working in an accounting function.
What is the interview process like for Big 4 corporate finance?
which actually calls it their I Banking division. Its a small mid mirket unit.Its based mainly in Detroit and Chicago from what I remember. People were a little more chilled out but I had to do a DCF ona laptop they agve me plus go through some accting statements to pick whats wrong. Hours didn't seem that bad.
How much was the pay at Deloitte? I've seen their business analyst program and have always wondered how much they make.
we recruited one (as a new analyst) after he spent a year in a big4 corporate finance team. from talking to him and others I know in big4 CF, it appears they do a lot of DCF and valuation work which are transferrable skills to Ibanking. hours pretty good, pay slightly above auditors/tax (which means its not very good).
so he came in as a first year?
Are business analysts the equivalent of corporate finance people at other Big 4?
I don't think they are. Business analysts are in Deloitte Consulting (which is a seperate firm from Deloitte & Touche) and are consultants. I believe that Deloitte's Corp. Finance falls under Deloitte & Touche (the accounting side). All the big 4 Corp. Finance falls under the accounting side as well.
is transaction services the same thing?
transaction services fall under the accounting side.
Big 4 CF is basically mid market M&A advisory like in a boutique. Very high deal flow but all smaller deals.
It is definitely considered more prestigious than audit. The pay / learning possibilities are also (slightly) better.
Im in a Big4 corporate finance dept, mostly its business valuations, capital raising(debt equity) theres lots of modelling involved but in this market they dont get paid better than the auditors
Big 4 Transaction (Corporate Finance)-> IB (Originally Posted: 10/05/2007)
Just want to know if this is possible. Have anyone had experience on this or heard any successful stories? Thanks.
Is this in reference to KPMG job posting?
Big 4 corporate finance - Transaction Services? (Originally Posted: 06/28/2009)
I've heard Big 4 corporate finance brought up on here a few different times, but I am only aware of one (Deloitte) that has a corporate finance practice. Or at least that is all I could find online.
Is corporate finance a practice under the Transaction Services umbrella? And if not, could someone post a link to a Big 4 corporate finance website?
Thanks in advance.
corporate finance = Financial Advisory = Transaction Advisory = Transaction Services...and a bunch of other names depending on the firm/region.
not exactly, there are two different things. 1)Where the accounting firm actually tries to advise on the transaction. 2)Where they advise strictly on tax aspects of a corporate finance activity. Depending on the firm, there will be different names, but you likely want to be in group 1.
Small corporate finance/Mgt. Consulting Group vs Big 4 Financial Advisory (Originally Posted: 05/18/2010)
At this point my two summer internship options are either a small corporate finance / mgt consulting group located in Berlin, GE that does capital market consulting, due diligence and M&A work or one of Big 4 financial advisory groups focusing on M&A in Sydney, AU. My ultimate goal is work for MBB upon graduation. What would give me the best experience, prep and resume builder for interviews for full-time in the Fall?
Not sure. But they are worlds apart. so let that be a big factor, do you want to be in berlin or sydney?
For me the name of the big 4 I think would appear to be more beneficial, that a small firm in germany cant give although the work may be more beneficial and interesting in the german firm.
So basically you have to weigh up besides location, whats more important, the name, or the type of work.
brand name internships are important for MBB from what i've heard i think the big 4 wil go much further
then again, if you know at the smaller firm you'll actually do important stuff with responsibility and be able to take the initiative in a way that would ornament your CV, that might be even more impressive.
BIG 4
Difference Between Big 4 Corp Finance and IB (Originally Posted: 07/27/2010)
Can someone please lay out for me the major differences between the corporate finance arms of the Big 4 and BB and Boutique Investment Banks?
Also The Difference Between Big 4 Transaction Advisory Services & Big 4 corporate finance.
Thanks Alot Guys
the pay
BB IBD http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2416/2273200482_803199a4ba.jpg
BIG 4 CF http://www.realestate43.com/credits/cache/2819664901_fef737887e.jpg
^ This guy has been reading too much LSO.
Having done 2 of the 3 I can tell you that big 4 corporate finance is the broker-dealer subsidiaries of the the larger accounting firms. As registered broker-dealers they act in the same manner as any other investment bank however, because of their ties with the parent which engages in auditing, the firms are usually completely independent and thus don't do any financing and with that usually they don't touch IPOs. Other than that, the Big 4 corporate finance arms act as leading middle market investment banks (which I'm sure people on here will debate, and this is due largely in part because there are several definitions on what middle market is). In which case for example, KPMG corporate finance routinely is a top the league tables on a volume / worldwide basis. These subs do everything from buy-side/sell-side M&A, ESOPS, debt advisory, restructuring etc. Plain and simple they are investment banks.
Big 4 TS takes a more of a consultant angle by usually offering due diligence services i.e.) a strategic/financial buyers is looking to acquire and they need to hire consultants who can perform due diligence on the target which usually involves accounting adjustments to earnings (which the purchase price is based off of) and adjustments to working capital (affects the amount of cash forked over by either the buyer of seller depending on the final situation). The due diligence aspect takes a considerably amount of business analysis. Also, within Big 4 TS is usually a more technical accounting aspect involving the actual accounting of transaction based situations i.e.) carve-outs, fresh-start accounting, combination accounting issues. This "group" within the group is usually involves a person more of the traditional accounting mindset. Furthermore, this group will do sell-side due diligence, M&A integration, and due diligence for commercial lenders. All of which are groups within the group and involve an professional who may be more or less an accountant and or consultant.
As far as the difference between the BBs and Big 4 Corp fin is that BBs obviously take on bigger transactions and can provide financing, otherwise its the same work just on larger scale, or more zeros on the end of number if you will. The big 4 corporate finance groups are usually middle market focused so they are the same as a boutique firm other than transaction size as boutique and regionals may do even smaller transactions. Big 4 TS is just another advisor in the transaction process however usually not the lead advisor but none the less a very important role.
Hope this helps.
What are the salaries like for first years in corporate finance at "big 4" in NY and how is spending a couple of years there perceived for exit opportunities?
Exit Ops/Salaries for Big 4 corporate finance (Originally Posted: 07/28/2010)
Does anyone have any idea what salaries are like for the "big 4" in NY for the corporate finance groups? What kind of exit ops are there if you spend a couple of years there?
base of around 70k (can range from 65 to 82 though at least for first years at least in one Big 4 I am familiar with). Bonuses are pretty small. Hours are a lot better than working for a BB. Exit opps are b-school, a better paying bank, etc.
The base range that Mitt quotes is accurate. To get more specific ranges and salaries by firm, go to glassdoor.com... thay will have the breakdown by firm / level / and assurance vs. tax. Think you need to register to see the data, but it's simple and only takes a few minutes.
Big 4 corporate finance - Undergrad? (Originally Posted: 11/08/2011)
Hi guys,
Does anyone know that the corporate finance groups at Big 4 hire undergrad or MS without much experience? I got FT offers from their TS groups. Wonder if I can be transferred before I start. Thanks in advance for your comment.
Anyone??
I believe they generally look for experienced hires in the corp fin groups, given that the Big 4 generally don't have the typical "2 years Analyst then up or out/MBA" programs that the banks have. That being said, if big 4 corp fin is what you want, you may be able to do it after a year of TS type work.
I know for a fact, PwC and EY do not take undergrad hires - I contacted them directly about it. Im not completely sure about KPMG, but i feel that they are the same, in regards to only taking experiences hires. However, I believe that Deloitte does accept undergrads, but again, im not completely sure.
If it helps, the best way to transfer into those groups would be to put a yr in the TS, specifically Valuation if you can, and then transferring into the CF group of your company. Ive heard of a few ppl doing that, and its much easier than trying to transfer to other MM banks.
Big 4 - Valuations (corporate finance department) (Originally Posted: 02/11/2012)
Hi guys,
I'll be graduating this year but I wasn't able to secure a good (front office) position at a bank, so I applied for a starting position in corporate finance at the big 4. (I live in continental Europe)
I've received an offer at one of the big 4 in Valuations (corporate finance), and I will be asked to study for the CFA.
1)Would you guys say that this is a solid plan B (assuming I can't get anything good in banking)? I've had some valuations courses at uni, and it is something that I enjoy doing..
2)But what I would really like to know is what are the REALISTIC exit opps for someone coming from Valuations? (is equity research a realistic exit opp for example?) and after how many years would it be best for me to leave?
3)Also, within the big 4, is it difficult to move from Valuations to the M&A team? I suppose it can be done, as apparently they work together quite a lot but could you confirm...
Thanks for your input guys,
cheers!
It's a decent plan B. Definitely better than say MO or BO at a large bank. You're building relevant valuations and possibly modeling skills. THE guy to ask on exit opps from Big 4 vals is Kenny_Powers_CFA.
There's also an article on M&I that illustrated a Big4 type transition to IB.
If you do well in your job, get yourself on a variety of projects to build your resume... coupled with good networking, you could potentially switch into a decent IB shop. Or a good MM IB. But again, this is dependent on if opportunities open up (as a lateral analyst)
Not a bad Plan B at all. Find a partner in the firm that you really connect with and let him know what you are thinking / your goals and I'm sure they will help you out.
I would not talk to a partner and let them know what your true goals are. No way, make your connections outside of work and when you're gone, you're gone. Otherwise, why will they truly want to invest money in training you and passing on knowledge to you so you can go use that knowledge for somebody else? Just seems like bad form to me to be so transparent on what you really want, no offense to the previous poster. It's just my opinion.
1) Yes, that is a good plan B, especially considering Big 4 gets more respect in Europe than it does in other markets. You will also pick up quite a few relevant skills.
2) You should honestly leave as soon as you can. The longer you wait to move, the worse your chances are going to be in breaking into ibanking specifically. Don't wait longer than 3 years. Realistic exit ops are corporate finance gigs, PE middle office, anything in the IBD of a bank, equity research (never heard of anyone actually doing this personally), or more school. Don't let people tell you that you must work at a small shop or something if you really want to work at a big bank.
3) Once you start in Valuation, it might be difficult to move over to M&A. There are hybrid programs here in the states at some firms where you can do both Valuation and M&A. Keep in mind that in those "M&A" positions, you do get to work on pre-deal work, but it is essentially financial due diligence which I've heard described as an "audit on steroids" and does not involve any valuation work. Ask about the possibility of a hybrid program so you can get exposure to both. If you don't have any financial modeling experience I would lean towards vals if the choice came down to one or the other. There are pros and cons of both.
Agree with TD Swim for the most part though you should note that this is based on a US perspective.
A pretty universal truth is that you shouldn't tell your boss that you view not only your job but the whole industry as a stepping stone. It's one thing for a bank analyst who's expected to be 2-and-done to talk about wanting to work in PE or what have you, but Big 4 view their associates as potential long-term employees and future partners-telling a partner that you view Big 4 work as a runner up/plan B seems unlikely to go over well.
1: I view Big 4 valuation as a pretty solid plan B, but it's important to realize that it is not a sure ticket into finance. For every person who moves from valuation to a front-office job there are a lot more who want to but don't. The hours are pretty bad (or mine were anyway) and the pay isn't very good (or mine wasn't anyway.). The fact that you're in Europe is pretty important-the prestige profile of the Big 4 is much better than in the US for a number of reasons and the mandate of Big 4 valuation and corp fin groups is broader.
2 I agree with as well. The most common finance exit I've seen in the US is to middle-office valuation roles at a PE firm or a trading desk. Those who moved to front-office most often did so by joining banking analyst programs and you don't want to be a 26-year-old 1st year analyst.
3 is true for the US where M&A groups mostly do a) pre-deal financial due diligence b) post-deal financial reporting integration/adjustments and c) transactional tax stuff (and often a "corp-fin/investment banking" team that's a micro-cap IB/fairness opinion shop but is in a different legal entity), but I am hesitant to give advice on the EU set-up since I'm not sure how the groups are structured.
how would you guys compare that opportunity in valuations & business modeling (corporate finance) in a Big4 to a "business & analysis planning graduate position" at Exxon? The business & analysis position would mainly be in reporting for 2 years and then they say i could move to treasury or other departments.. Sounds like it would be a bit too accounting related for me...
and also how would you compare those opps with a credit analyst graduate position at the European Investment Bank?
Thanks for your input once again ;-)
Not crazy about the idea of the Exxon role. For some companies, treasury can be pretty cool because you manage interest rate, currency, commodity exposure etc but I imagine that for a company like Exxon most of that happens in a dedicated trading group. Rotational programs are also an easy way to promise things that may never have to be delivered upon.
Credit analyst can be about a million different things so it's tough to say. If it's a credit research analyst that's good. If it's a credit underwriter for a commercial lending group that could be pretty solid too. If it's a middle-office credit risk management-type role then it's more of a toss-up with the Big 4 in my eyes.
Again this is based on US perception/exit options so ymmv.
Hi guys,
I noticed this thread and it's almost exactly the topic that I need adivce on. I hope you don't mind me chiming in.
I'm attending SBS at Oxford for my MBA which is a one-year program. My background is a CA from PwC Toronto, CFA level 2 coming up in June. I was hoping to jump into an associate role in IB but London has proved a tough nut to crack with no modelling experience and just under 3 years work experience as an auditor. So I have begun looking at other options and the Big 4 is an easy play for me, having come from PwC.
I'm in discussions with an experienced hire HR person at Deloitte and we have been talking about what roles they are currently recruiting for. I told her that I was most interested in the following groups which are all under the heading of corporate finance Adivsory, which is a group within Corproate Finance: -Lead Advisory -PE -Valuations
She has passed my information along to a team within Lead Advisory but the Valuations group got back to her first, asking for an interview with me. I'm struggling to determine whether Lead Advisory or Valuations is the right way to go, as I've gathered from the HR person that if I want Lead Advisory, I should pass on the Valuations interview and I will get my chance to interview for Lead Advisory.
You guys surprised me my backing Valuations, as I've spoken to people in Toronto Office at Deloitte and they say that Lead Advisory is by far more like IB. They said that it would be hard to get on the better mandates in Valuations and that I wouldn't end up doing any IB type valuation work. What do you guys think? I'd love to get into leveraged finance, mid-market IB at a Boutique, or private equity as soon as I can. Is Lead Advisory at Deloitte going to help me get there?
Hi jbishop021 - I wonder how you went (after your earlier post - which appears exactly where I am 2 years later!) - did you get into CF or have found other passions? Please let me know as I am sure your jounral will be a insightful one to be shared! Thanks!
Jurisdiction matters; Big 4 corporate finance is much more active/respected outside of the US. That said, one advantage to valuation is that you get more of a "pure" modeling and valuation skill-set. Take for example the linked D&T lead advisory transaction:
That's pretty much the ideal transaction from D&T's standpoint, but the first part helping prepare pro-forma historical financials and projections is much more reflective of the typical Big 4 corporate finance engagement.
Considering Big 4 Corp Finance (M&A, restructuring) (Originally Posted: 10/13/2013)
What do you guys think of Big 4 Corp Finance (M&A, restructuring)?
Pros&Cons?
What about exit opp, pay, hours, colleagues, networking, skills set?
How does it compare to buy side or other front office jobs? Does it even count as front office experience?
Thanks in advance!
Why don't you use the search function?
That`s what I just did.... I spent time searchin for about 30 min. Nothing. Its all TSA, audit, valuation...
Anybody?
Looks like you're in business school, either coming from or going to PE. Why are you even interested in Big 4 Corp Fin?
Alright,
Thanks guys I ran another search and this time I found the perfect thread to get my answers.
peinvestor2012: I don't know if I should think that I'll never make it when it comes from someone that made 2 posts and failed to demonstrate the very people skills that seems to be required to make it in IB. Sorry buddy.
Haha, @peinvestor2012, you are just too harsh.
Hey so I know this guy was a tard... but I have a similar question but directly ONLY to the Restructuring groups of the big 4.. I know they fall under Corp Fin. Do they ever get people out into distressed shops?
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