Which areas in IB tend to have the best and worst work-life balances?
Compensation is not really a factor for me here (since IB in general has pretty high comp).
From what I've heard M&A tends to have it the worst, and DCM and LevFin aren't too bad?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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Varies by firm obviously, but at many places the hours in M&A and LevFin are fairly comparable.
Thank you for the insights. Would you say that M&A and LevFin are generally at the worse end of the work-life balance spectrum?
Generally the better the group is doing, the worse the hours hour, regardless of whether you're in a coverage or product group. The best thing you can do is to try to join the best group that aligns with your interests
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for your inputs.
That's the consensus, yes. But again, your mileage may vary. There are lots of boutique or regional MM M&A firms that have reasonable hours. But pretty much only banks with big balance sheets play in LevFin, and the M&A and LevFin divisions you'll see in these places are known for having long hours.
Ah, that makes sense, thanks.
Best is going to be at small MidWestern and Southern firms. Not only do those regional culture value their Sundays off but in many instances there's simply no reason to be cranking once it's in AM hours. Nobody at most small shops gives a shit if you're in the office at 1AM (because they aren't) and your clients will be usually blue collar industries in your own time zone so they sure as hell don't care if you're in the office late.
Thanks for your insights. I'm not based in the US, but I suppose small shops being more chilled is probably a universal tendency.
Usually. Part of that is simply the social dynamics. It's easier for managers to be familiar with your work at a small shop, so there simply isn't any advantage to being seen in the office late at night.....nevermind that you never actually will be seen in the office late at night because typically your directors will go home to complete their tasks near family.
At most firms, most capital markets groups (ECM, DCM, Levfin CM) will have slightly better hours than traditional coverage/product groups (M&A, Healthcare, C&R, etc...). This is because your work is more focused on markets (obviously) therefore most of your work will be done while the markets are open (typically hours more like 7am-7pm vs 9am-11pm+). I mentioned most firms and most groups because it really can vary (groups like MS ECM might see way more hours, than lets say, DB Real estate **disclaimer don't know much about either group, just a ball park estimate example*.
I think you're wrong about Levfin though... from my experience Levfin, as a traditional transaction product group, sees hours completely in line with M&A (again varies by firm)
Like others said though, the hours tend to vary with how good your group is doing - if work life balance is a bigger concern to you than compensation/exit ops/prestige, you might want to consider jobs outside IB - but if you still like the work and could find a group that fits your bill, more power to ya!
Thanks for the insight!
Groups with the least hours (Originally Posted: 09/26/2006)
I was just curious of which groups you would work the least amount of hours. Of course M&A works a lot. But are there any groups where it would at least be reasonable, like say 60-70 hours per week?
ECM/DCM
PE is 8/8
Lev Fin is usually 8:30-9:30 or 10 pm
yes sir it is. lev fin is the shit. im getting out of M&A come the end of this year, year 2. liv fin here i come.
also note, there is no ECM/DCM group. it is a product area, assuming its in IBD, not the bank in general, for thats a different job. buy yes, those in ECM/DCM in IBD works less hours.
what's ECM?
Equity capital markets. Think IPOs.
Well if you end up in lev fin I'll likely see your name on a deal. I'll have to call you and give you a hard time about the numbers. :)
"What the fuck is this dogshit adjustment?"
buyside, are the hours for lev fin as good as they appear, or are my collegues taking some work home?
Don't know about their hours, but I usually don't get emails from them after 8 EST.
wow.....in Europe lev fin is one of the hardest working departments
what about m&A in europe
also tough...I did some time in LF and am in M&A now and much prefer M&A. LF was basically a sweatshop department doing the same thing over and over again - at least there's more scope for interesting new projects in M&A*
*ummm....after the first 12-18 months, that is
There are departments in IB that let you go home BEFORE midnight?!?!?!?!
i have friends in the industrials group who go home relatively early...
Whoever said Lev Fin is smoking something, those are usually the group with the longest hours...I hear that sponsors are relatively easy.
friends of mine worked in lev fin this summer and they never saw the light of day. it's only a hair better than IB.
Product groups like structured finance, derivatives, liability management, asset backed finance, structured credit products, CMBS, etc., all offer really good pay for about 60-70 hrs/week. They're hard groups to get into, though, b/c they are small and rarely hire MBA's.
dan why the third year? no pe or grad school for ya?
that it really depends on the bank and city
i will be a 3rd year. Direct promotion. Banker For Life
NYC, UBS/CS LA >> SF >>>> Chicago in terms of hours and exit opps.
There does seem to be a direct correlation: more hours = better exit opps. Not always the case, but for the most part.
real estate has the shortest hours
What are exit ops for structured products
exit opps are basiclly hedge fund/ fi mutual fund
that are executive assistants get in at 8 and out by 5 at the latest.
IBD lifestyle depending on group... (Originally Posted: 02/08/2010)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about the different product and coverage groups and whether there is a general correlation between the respective groups and their relative hours worked/lifestyle demands compared to the other groups. So, how would you guys, especially those with experience, rank the general groups in terms of worst lifestyle/sweatshop? It would be interesting to know which groups have the best/worst lifestyle/work balance in comparison with each other.
Would the product groups, specifically LevFin and M&A, be on the high or low end of the spectrum in terms of hours worked compared to the industry coverage groups?
From what I gather, levfin and M&A have the most hours.
That's what I would think, but then again, I would think the industry coverage groups have the endless amount of pitchbooks to keep them at the office longer...anyone with first-hand knowledge care to weigh in on this?
There are no hard rules but in general, M&A groups as well as Restructuring groups are known to ride their analysts pretty hard. Same with Healthcare groups and consolidated TMT groups.
Also..
-Obviously, the more dealflow a group has, the more they are working..
-Some groups will have their associates produce more actual product instead of just checking it = better for you
-If a group has MDs that are single.. watch out!
-Groups that do full execution in-house will work more..
It varies from bank to bank. That said, M&A and Lev Fin groups are generally known to have very long hours. This is largely because they are product, rather than coverage groups, which means that they are doing work for coverage groups, so if a coverage group is busy and needs work done then they will be busy.
I wonder what the variance between hours actually is between the different groups. That would really be an interesting statistic to see. Wouldn't the coverage groups be working like dogs because of the endless pitchbooks?
I think it depends on the bank. It's like asking which major works the hardest. If you're at MIT, it's probably harder than at texas A&M.
Terrible example guy, especially considering you can indeed make generalizations about majors and their relative difficulty in relation to other majors, regardless of the college.
In general if you are looking for groups with the fewest hours I would probably say ECM or DCM
Anyone else with experience care to chime in?
M&A and LevFin will usually have crazy hours.... Now, for the coverage group...
HC is a long hour group at every single shop... Way too many companies to cover... and those companies like to acquire each other as well.
Power & Utility is relatively decent. Limited ECM and M&A executions. Plenty of DCM execution and some LBO deals as well. But not too bad in overall.
Cannot really comment on the rest of the coverage group as I have always heard different stories...
Desk Cultures (No this is not another which desk is better thread) (Originally Posted: 03/21/2011)
Hello, Im gonna be starting a S&T summer analyst gig at a BB. I have sort of an idea which desks I would want to rotate on but I wanted to know about the specific culture on each desk. My goal is to make my experience as diverse as possible and try out desks which have totally different kinds of ppl (from the ones which have people on the desk going out together everynight or regularly compared to a desk where people tend to do their own thing after office hours apart from the occasional thing). Id personally like to be on each kind of desk and really see for myself where I feel most comfortable and I was wondering if any of you who have dont BB S&T internships or are working their currently could shed some light onto which desks you think are both the most 'social' and the least. Thanks!
I am not in S&T, but this has been answered in many previous threads.
Desks vary by bank. Is the average structured products guy more likely to have studied math/comsci than the guy trading cash? Yes, but only slightly.
The desks vary way too much to make any generalizations as to culture. You can't really say that one desk has a certain type of person. I am sure there is a structured products desk populated by lax frat bros somewhere, just as I am sure there is a cash desk that stays in the office to play Warcraft together after work.
Groups witht the least amount of hours? (Originally Posted: 10/04/2006)
These are the groups I know of off the top of my head. Out of these, maybe you guys could rank the hours? Number one being the group with the least hours. M&A Lev Fin Sponsors (can somebody define that) ECM DCM what else, maybe a derivatives group or something?
Dan, there is another thread from a week or so ago addressing the same topic. I would take a look at that.
Actually my name is Yi. I would like some of the more serious posters to respond. Which groups are the best, for hours that is?
Oh, well thank you very much. Hurl insulting names my way and don't answer my question. Look man, if you think I am Dan Bush than feel free to express it elsewhere. I created a forum topic because I will be interviewing come January and I would like to know everything possible about the job. So fine, for the WastingTime and flasbag people, I am Dan Bush. Just pretend in your little Dan Bush obessed world that I am him. But for the others, the earnest posters that have not been consumed by this Dan Bush, I am Yi from Connecticut. Hi.
If you are trying to enter this industry with the mentality of finding a group with "GOOD" hours then I would seriously reconsider. No matter what group at the BB's you are in, you will face harsh hours that require understanding and committment. Overall group hours vary by deal cycle and the culture at the respective firms.
Forget about banking with a 2.7, no bank will look at that.
If you go to a non-target school they wouldn't look at it, but if you're coming from Yale then yeah they'll look at it.
I understand that, but I was just curious. Do you have any insight?
I go to Princeton. And I think they will look at it. I know 3 people in the 2s at Goldman, granted they were eng majors.
It depends on the bank and the group... but let me give you a great tip... When interviewing, look at the guys' ring fingers. You do not want to work for unmarried guys in ibanking because they will stay late and you, by extension will stay later. Married managers get out around 8 when there is nothing pressing to be done (generally, and may not be true for everyone). Cause you know, parents want to see their kids every now and then. This'll give you an opportunity to slip out after them when workload is ligher. Good thing to think about.
are M&A (90-110) by far, unless you work for a group like UBS HC. On average, Lev. Fin (60-70) at most banks is on lower end along with ECM/DCM. Sponsors depends on the deal flow, but hours (80-100) are in range with most industry groups. Of course, these hours are for analysts/associates
what is "sponsors" and can you expound upon the duties of leveraged finance bankers?
Groups with least amount of hours (Originally Posted: 11/08/2006)
Which groups in the IBD have the least amount of hours? I was thinking the equity or debt underwriters.
hi Dan Bush.....
Hi Dan. It's nice to see you again. I guess you have a new name, still old tricks though.
least hours ever.
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