Is it crazy to take an offer from Deutsche Bank

I just received an exploding offer from DB (SA). I do not have any other offers at the moment, but have several superdays with other BBs.

If I do not want to renegotiate, should I just take this offer? I am extremeley nervous I won't get another offer. I think I would take it any other Summer, but I am very worried by the state they're in. Comments?

 

Poor advice given the current hiring climate. There's a reason people are saying to pick banks which offer the highest probability of a FT offer.

I don't have good advice to give since I don't know many people privy to Deutsche's real situation, but don't offer fucked up career advice

 

As Sil said, if you have something else take that something else. If not take the offer from DB. In my opinion it's much better to go with db and lateral if things go wrong than risking not having anything and be stuck with worse opps.

I mean DB is still a strong establishment, well recognised by the market. Just dont expect big bonuses in the short run (though some friends told me they paid market last year for juniors, its the seniors who suffered from the cost cutting)

 

Just talked to about 10 people from DB last night and they insist they're going nowhere (obviously), but pointed to liquidity being higher than ever. Germany can't allow them to fail. Also, they're highest margins are in investment banking, so economically that would be the last thing they cut as compared to their commercial side in Europe.

Plus, you are cheap labor, they aren't worried about your cost. It's the MDs and the like that they are concerned about paying.

I say take the offer unless you think you can go elsewhere.

 

The only divisions at DB that currently make money are asset management, GTB and Postbank (Retail) check the annual or quarterly reports and dont believe what IB's are telling you. The turnover of juniors is very high. IB currently drops out of all league tables and the US Gov want to decrease DB's presence in the US. YTD DB is not even top 10 anymore http://fn.dealogic.com/fn/MARank.htm

and regrding liquidity, well there is some but german government made it very clear that there is no way in hell that they help DB. next year is a new election and merkel would definitely lose if she helps the hated bankers once again....

Make Donald Drumpf again
 

I would take the offer. At the very worst, you don't get a return offer and have a prestigious firm on your resume when you look for FT work. Obviously you can still interview at other places and take those jobs if you get them, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

"There's nothing you can do if you're too scared to try." - Nickel Creek
 

Unless your OCR process penalises you for rengegging, I suggest you accept the offer, continue interviewing with other banks, then reneg on DB if you get a better offer. DB would not think twice about renegging on you if things get worse for them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

seriously? GRE monkey? are you still at the stage of preparing for your GRE? my girl friend is trying to study GRE too... any good materials to share with me? Would be appreciate it.

English man in WSO, fresh off the boat.

I think it's a risk given the hiring freeze. On the other hand DB still has some strong groups. In my space (real estate) they are a still a major player on the cap markets and lending side, albeit somewhat more constrained than they used to be.

The last act is tragic, however happy all the rest of the play is; at the last a little earth is thrown upon our head, and that is the end for ever.
 

Yes, DB's in a bad situation and that is definitely something to be wary of, however be aware that the hiring freeze is affecting IB very minimally and especially at the analyst level. They're planning on cutting their Junior SA class by 25% from the previous SA Class and even with everything going on managed to have very solid and higher than expected return-offer rate for the '16 SA Class ('17 FT), respectively greater than many BB's had this past summer (in the 80%'s depending on group). Again, something to be definitely wary of and definitely keep your options open, but its not a bad option to take if other BB's don't come your way.

 

Sorry to hear they didn't get offers. Can confirm 80%'s in NY. Obviously it varies group to group- a group like HC with virtually no deal flow/MD's had very low return % (which was the outlier) where other groups like NRG/LevFin/M&A/Ind which had 10+ interns per group had above the 80%'s. Not sure I know of a group aside from HC that got recked

 

The standard answer applies here- take it unless you have a better offer. They're going through a restructuring (that has been extended a few times) so there are a lot of unknowns going forward. I would be less concerned with pay (which will be at or near Street-level for analysts) and more with exits, which have taken a hit over the last 2 years.

I won't speculate on whether/how quickly DB will bounce back, but I think the most telling statistic is this: FT league tables for overall bonds (DB's core function, alongside loans) show a decrease of 5% in fees vs. a total increase in the bonds fee pool of 11% YTD 2017. They're still a bulge bracket bank with capital to lend out so they're going to continue getting business, but the highest performing groups in the bank are proving that they are not immune to the structural problems of the firm overall.

 

can i ask what school (or type of school) you attend? i.e. ivy, target, non-target? how did you get your internship?

s/t at DB is very good, 2nd only to GS. culture is very aggressive.

 
idkoop:
can i ask what school (or type of school) you attend? i.e. ivy, target, non-target? how did you get your internship?

s/t at DB is very good, 2nd only to GS. culture is very aggressive.

I go to a non-target, yet top-50 school in undergrad business.

you say S&T only second to GS? wow, is it THAT good?

 

good for you. But i think its a very large stretch to say DB is second in terms of ST...thats a pretty bold claim. I would not agree. But again, ST is so broad that some banks kick ass in certain products/sectors, and suck in others. DB is def not 2nd across the board though. Im sure they have some incredibly strong desks. I believe that was a biased opinion you got.

 

ok, ill be more specific: its 2nd in terms of total trading volume and profits.

OP: big congrats, its difficult to make it in even from a target as a jr. what do you think did it for you? being aggressive/persistent, connections, or serendipity?

 

Thanks all for your comments. Yeah I didn't think it was second in S&T overall. But it's definitely top 10, and that's good enough for me!

Yes, I got it through SEO. I got into the program in early January but they didn't assign us a firm until today. I know a lot of people here will discredit the achievement just because of SEO, but believe me, getting into SEO is no walk in the park.

 
dpiderit:
I know a lot of people here will discredit the achievement just because of SEO, but believe me, getting into SEO is no walk in the park.

The hard part for SEO kids is getting an offer to return from their firm (you shouldn't have a problem this summer though since you are a soph).

 
dpa38d2u:
hey, how long did they give you to accept the SEO offer?

I don't get your question... I got my SEO offer in early january and accepted right away, why would I think about it? I'm sure they have a dateline for accepting but if you go through the whole process, I can't see anybody getting in and then having second thougths...

 

DB IS second or third in trading revenue globally (MS may have surpassed them recently, but it is close). I am not sure of a much more objective and publicly available measure of ranking a trading operation. Its not like anyone cares about trading floor prestige.

 
cafe_apple:
DB S&T is awesome. What specifically are you doing?Their FICC is good I hear.

Their IBD is also good in a lot of places... maybe except the US. Are you doing S&T in US?

Yes, S&T in U.S.

Can you elaborate on why is it awesome? Thanks!

 
Jimbo:
uhh...go where you like the people?

obvious answer that I didn't even think about lol.

But I mean like performance based, which desks are the most well known. I head it was derivatives in general and exchange rates/ currencies?

 

How did you get the internship? Does DB offer a program for sophomores, did you have a connection, or did you just drop your resume with the rest of the juniors?

 

SEO. You have to be a minority to do the program. It'd be very difficult to get a trading job at an investment bank from UMiami otherwise (even with a 3.9 GPA, no offence). "Top 50 undergrad business school" is pretty bad - most banks only recruit at Top 10 OVERALL colleges.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here about SEO, but I just think dpiderit should definitely be very upfront here about how he got the internship (not that he hasn't so far), since I don't want everyone out there with a 3.9 from an okay school to start thinking they're going to get a trading job at an investment bank - because 99.9% of them will not even get interviewed.

 

It's a good firm and it has some pretty good leadership. DB also took some Merrill FIG guys recently. They seem to have a good future ahead of them. They also have better compensation potential than their fellow american banks particularly because they have no restrictions placed on them. That said, DB New York doesn't get its hands on as many deals as other banks do. The Asian and European offices are very good though.

 

well I can't really comment on IB side because i'm not that familiar with it. But heres what I understand about the S&T side.

In terms of S&T, I think DB's really extremely strong. They're top for FX trading/structuring(with 21+% mkt share) around the world, and before Boaz Weinstein left they were top notch for the credit sphere as well(even in NY). Its lower profile in NY than other firms(I realize a lot of undergrads dont really think much about them in US, but a lot of top MBA school people want to head for Deutsche London), but they're really considered one of the top houses in London and Asia. if it matters to you, I encountered quite few interviewers in other houses i.e JP, GS etc that all started/worked in Deutsche sometime in their career.

So bottomline, i think you should look out for which product the bank is strong in and try to aim for that. Even though places like GS and JP may seem very attractive for the firm name, sometimes it may pan out better if you work for the top area in a bank (i.e Deutsche for FX and credit, UBS for equities and FX, Barclays for commods etc)

Just my 2 cents worth, hope it didnt deviate too much from the OP's message

 
undefined:

Most of the layoffs are in non-IBD areas so its mainly trimming down excess. should be beneficial to long run profitability. I wouldn't be surprised if bonuses are more conservative this year but should be back to normal thereafter.

Correct and Wrong.

Correct in that majority of the layoffs will be in the markets (S&T) side of the business, particularly in fixed income.

Wrong in the sense that IBD will all be unaffected - with the current losses that DB is facing (remember they had a 6.2 billion writedown in 3Q, not to mention all the pending lawsuits going on, particularly the one related to doing business in Russia, which will likely end up with a huge fine), all divisions will get affected, although IBD lesser so that S&T. Comp at DB is shrinking by 1/3 and unless you are firmwide-acknowledged as a rainmaker, your comp will be affected in one way or another. The only exception is at the analyst level just because comp at the analyst level is insignificant (relatively speaking) but expect comp start to decrease (relative to peer BBs) starting at the 2nd year associate level.

 

Their only chance is to split business. Save the good divisions, scrap the rest. Otherwise it'll all go down in shambles. The stock isn't even interesting to short it.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
 

They tried to turn around the bank by taking a huge exposure in derivatives, because that's what the human mind tells you when things go bad: take more risk. The strategy kept the afloat for a while, but it failed to reshape the bank's future. Two CEOs already jumped the ship, that should tell you more than any financial statement.

It'll be interesting to see how Germans will react when they have to bail out that colossus of crap.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.
 

At no point did the article say that any Deutsche Bank employees are embarrassed to put the bank's name on their resume. That is a ridiculous Dealbreaker clickbait title and you should be embarrassed to further it.

The Bloomberg article's actual title is "Deutsche Bank Survey Finds Most Staff Aren’t Proud to Work There," and predictably, what the article does say is that over half of the employees "aren't proud" to work there. That's a bad figure, sure, but it doesn't mean what Dealbreaker and you say it does. Not being proud does not equal so embarrassed you can't put it on your resume.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

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