Is S&T still a good career choice? Is there still a demand for S&T summer analysts?

I definitely see that at least for the next couple of years its not looking great. Cryan at DB sums up the general idea, a lot of people in finance get paid entrepreneurial returns for just showing up for work. The general trajectory I would expect is the top 10% rainmakers keep making bank, and people who are there to just make sure things run smoothly will get paid less. When banks struggle to generate returns of equity that equal their cost of capital, that money has to come from somewhere. At least for the next couple of years, any earnings are either going to be stolen by regulators via fines or via increased capital requirements.

The knock on effect is that as pay decreases in investment banks, pay in other parts of the financial world tend to follow. If I am a PM at an HF, I can now pay my traders less given their opportunity cost has decreased.

Read the Coalition league tables for S&T and find where banks have the most market share. These are the desks that will be relatively safe compared to others. For example, MS FICC is not their strength, equities is. Additionally, DB, Barcap, and Citi are all Rates/FX leaders. As regulation becomes stricter and ROE suffers, I believe banks will become more lean, specialized machines.

Please refer to the other 100 threads on this. Your question is not novel, and there are plenty of threads from the last 4 months. And don't tell me you wanted to ask this "in light of recent events", nothing in the last 6 months has changed the regulatory/revenue/hiring narrative other than maybe FRTB which is going to get changed dramatically anyway.

Interested.

absolutely no fucking chance, unless you picked up some OOP wizardry on the side.

Every BB still has S&T SA programs...it's not any different than it was before, regardless of whatever anyone will try to tell you. Offer rates may be down somewhat, but generally speaking the class sizes are the same. NYU should give you ample opportunities to network with alums and have desks visits. No real reason for you not to have an opportunity.

are you talking about prop trading or S&T at a bank? They are two very different professions.

BBs still hire S&T summer analysts, but conversion rates to FT employment are very low across the street.

asiamoney:

BBs still hire S&T summer analysts, but conversion rates to FT employment are very low across the street.

ya it was awful. fortunate enough to squeak by with an offer but damn. s&t is doing horrible. as monty said in the other thread trading gets boring after a while. different events affect your markets, but same ole crap day in and day out.

i am interested in prop as well. From what i've read about breaking in on places like Mergers and Inq. is that it depends on 1) networking and 2) the interview, both the tests and personality fit

good luck to the both of us.

whalesquid123:

as monty said in the other thread trading gets boring after a while. different events affect your markets, but same ole crap day in and day out.

I think the idea of doing the same thing every day actually sounds really fun. but i'm one of those weird rain man types

Doing the same thing everyday is boring to most people; the only compensation for that is hopefully youre making money most days. Becomes a lot less fun when you have a couple big drawdowns in a row. Few would willingly take on the stress and monotony of trading (referring to market making here) if it weren't for the upside $ potential. One of the trader memoirs I read mentioned that being exposed to huge amounts of risk everyday kills your libido...got to decide if its worth it to you

If your at NYU go check out QFS (Quantitative Finance Society). They will teach you a lot there and have quite a few connections to traders at BBs (Me) and some Chicago shops

in my candidates' pile, i have plenty of people with master's in fin eng from good places who are willing to grind it out in an expensive city for 50K. i have experienced trader candidates from top desks that have been let go, 3-5 years experience, willing to work for sub-100K.

can you compete with that?

They're really big on functional programming at Jane Street (also equity vs ADR arb and MMing). So brush up on your Haskell.(If that statement didn't make much sense to you , then you have a long road ahead). Ive heard their starting is crap though.

In general , for the long haul in HFT you need a Phd in some quantitative/technical discipline. The simple strategies that undergrads did 3-4 years ago are very crowded and not worth the hardware cost anymore. And to move around , many of the bigger firms will not hire researchers who don't have some advanced degree.

I've personally had enough of it because it can get quite tedious if you aren't really in love with Math/Stats. Also , the personality types it tends to attract are not the most enjoyable to work around. There are , of course , some very solid and great people in the field - but the rest generally combine a level of douchiness and social awkwardness I find exhausting.

yes... the opportunities are there, Citi and BAML had offer rates for S&T summers above 60%.

Why the focus on BB? Why not some MM shops as well

I meant prop shops, not S&T at banks. I appreciate everyone's input but getting a job as a trading analyst out of NYU CAS Econ sounds nearly impossible without an impressive Computer Science major or Math major. Although, I would still like to know if prop shops are hiring anymore at all.

And how could one prove oneself during an interview without a quantitative major but having graduated top of your class? Assuming you can even get an interview.

Are there any jobs that don't involve a CS/Engineering major in trading? To be clear: can you get a job in trading with an economics degree?

Are there any non-HFT jobs in trading?

They certainly exist. Fortunately it takes more than a pulse and an Ivy League degree to turn an internship into a full time offer now. This is nothing unusual in other industries, and honestly I hope this trend does not reverse.

Ok, not to hijack the post but...how are opportunities for a undergrad degree in CS/engineering? I understand why grad students are preferred but is that really the only route in now?

Hi,

I am interested in a trading role at a BB (not prop shop). From reading this thread & others on Quantnet etc, it seems that there has been a reduction in the number of S&T positions that BBs are hiring for.

If I am still interested in an S&T role in a BB, does it help that I have a dual degree in Math / CS ?

Looking for your suggestions. Thanks!

Volatility is easier to quantify in the markets than in a career path. As with all such questions, it depends "for whom" and "relative to what".

Understand that flow trading is less of a crapshoot then people make it out to be on some threads. You'll start as an assistant trader, and getting your own book is as much about circumstance as proving your abilities. Your desk's net profitability is an important metric for how well you do, oftentimes traders will take positions to hedge for one another or on behalf of the desk. The timing of the market, and how hot your product is represents another factor beyond your control. If your PnL is atrocious your desk head and risk will get involved before the situation gets out of hand. Flow trading is also not necessarily about investing, as it is about risk management, locking in bid/ask spreads and hedging away the risk as efficiently as possible. Apologies if this rambles, been a long night.

I think the better question is what happens to all those poor souls who get fired. Do they go on to other succesful market-related endeavors or do they go back to school/the drawing board and start a new career path.

Also interested

What are the exit ops from doing trading fresh out of college? Another trading gig and so forth?

QFT

I just emailed an upper classman (MBA program) who did a S&T internship with a major bank in Hong Kong to ask him to share his experiences because I want to do S&T as well. He told me to save myself the effort, not waste time and figure out something else to do for a career as it is a completely dying field, barely any interns are getting FT offers and everything is basically getting automated.

Its very unfortunate, but this is not the first time I heard this. The same message has been told to me by many sources from students to MD level friends.

Well here's my take: 1. S&T will need less people, so we will have an over-supply of MBA/Masters/Undergrad; competition is fierce and the standard criteria might not cut it anymore 2. Computer skills and math skills becoming more and more mandatory. 3. Exploration of non-capital intensive, high margin, repeatable business.

I would go for either (a) new initiatives that steams-line the S&T business to learn and get up there fast. (b) areas that will not get replaced that easily (High yield debt, although that's dangerous as well) (c) Structuring/deal related positions (commercial real estate, credit solutions, etc) (d) or a position that builds the broadest skillset to get out of S&T to some other job.

As an undergrad pursuing a career in trading, would a summer analyst experience at a BB in S&T still be a good option or should I focus all my effort on landing a summer internship at a prop shop or hedge fund? I'm a math and finance double major, if that helps.

I don't see commodities trading being automized any time soon (especially the physical side).

Opportunity is in the sales side

Where do I see opportunity lie in Sales and Trading?

Honestly, I see it in lying. Or, at least in stretching the truth.

would like to know as well plz. s&t folk that are still in the business are like, "it's a tough time, but it's still a great place to be. blah blah blah." are they just bs'ing us to make us sign? from all the news it doesn't look like s&t is ANYWHERE near done being hammered.

prob

ahh, i see. i just look at the cbot commodities pits, and their is no action in any futures pits. only the options has any action, and i can't imagine that will stay that way for much longer.

Very little opportunity in trading, as traditionally defined. First, floor trading is virtally extinct, with the exception of some options. Second, algos have taken over, especially in equities and futures, so if you're not a programmer, there's not much room for you.