Overtime Pay for FT Analysts?
It was brought to my attention that IB analysts are non-exempt employees (for overtime pay) under federal law. Meaning that all analysts who work 40+ hours per week are due a minimum of 1.5x base salary for every hour worked over 40. However, I have never heard of an analyst sue for overtime or be permitted overtime in their contract. Keep in mind that anyone who makes $100K+ (including bonus) would be exempt, so this would likely only include those people who were either underpaid or shafted on bonuses (like in 08-09). Does anyone have more info about this? You can claim or sue for unpaid overtime retroactive up to 2 years.
Here is the Dept of Labor website which contains all of the info on the topic: http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/overtimepay.htm.
Nevermind the legality of it, it's career suicide. The only person I could see suing would be somebody who's been fired already.
^^ Duly noted. But it's actually illegal and against federal law for banks to not pay overtime. Laws have changed over the past 5 years and some banks/HR depts may not even be aware that they are mistaken. I would agree that any reasonably intelligent, career conscious person would only sue after they have left a job, which is why the 2 year window is so important.
By brought to your attention, do you mean HR said you are a non exempt employee?
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_professional.pdf
Theoretically the ombuds process could be used to take care of this. I still wouldn't touch it.
There's also the fact that no regulator in his right mind is going to take action against a bank to make sure bankers get paid even more. And who told you analysts are nonexempt?
-
Wouldn't you have to be an hourly employee, not a salaried worker to qualify for overtime?
Go ahead and sue GS. They would either (a) wipe their ass with your lawsuit or (b) drag the shit out past your life expectancy just to make a point. Probably choice (a) though
If you're an analyst in building services and have joined the union, you might have a case.
the analysts in my office are exempt
I think any salaried professional job can be classified as exempt. You only have a case if your offer letter specificaly said you're non-exempt, which it wouldn't have.
agree that it would be career suicide...if you don't want to work that hard, don't take the job.
Overtime Pay Question (Originally Posted: 04/05/2010)
Im trying to budget my money for the summer and I was seeking some info on over time pay. Im working equities S&T at a BB. They said in the offer packet they pay half time for any hours over 40 a week. Now Im guessing I will work 12 hours a day on the equities desk? 6am to 6pm. So 12x5 is 60 hours per week.
Half time would be your normal salary, translated to hourly pay, 70k/52= 1346 Per Week.
1346/60= 22.43 is hourly rate X0.5 = Overtime Rate of 11.21
So pay would be 1346+(20x11.21)=1570
Just trying to see if this is a realistic projection of hours and pay, and would and should I be constantly logging that 20 hours of overtime each week? Does that look bad??
How much did uncle sam get you guys for over your summers? And how much was your subsequent tax return?
Assuming you did the basic math correctly, that is about right. I logged the hours for sure, generally about 70/wk. I paid alot originally, but got a nice Federal and NY State refund, so I can't complain too much. Just don't be too surprised when they take out 40% of your relocation bonus... if you haven't already noticed. There is no reason to really ask about other peoples tax return due to other income and exemptions, it's not going to give you a great idea.
this is not the right math. your hourly rate would be 1346/40 = 33.65 and half of that would give an overtime rate of 16.83.
Yeah sorry didn't look at that, yeah you divide by 40.
Isn't overtime traditionally "time and a half" or 1.5 times your normal hourly rate? I'm just curious, I don't think I've ever heard of "half time"...
Na, it's half time.
Yeah I got half time as well
Nope, you divide by 60, the OP had it right.
If this is the same as my firm, you take what your pro-rated salary would be and divide it by the number of hours you worked, then multiply that by .5 to get the half time, then multiply that number by the number of hours over 40 that you worked, add it to your salaried wage and theres your pay. Come on guys, its in the offer letter, your going to be in S&T and you can't even do basic algebra...
since when do they pay you less the more you work?...the answer is they dont...its always time and 1/2 - its just how overtime works everywhere... correct me if i am wrong but i mean its just counter-intuitive that more work = less pay
do summer analysts log all overtime hours or does it look bad? also, do most SA's work til 6?
You get additional pay for more work. Your salary is at 40 hours per week. If it takes you more hours to get work done, you get half-time for the additional hours. The OP's math is right on.
As far as taxes go, individual circumstances and deductions will alter the amount taken out as well as potential refunds.
No you do not divide by 60, the correct rate is $16.83 for 1/2 time. I'm looking at my offer letter right now and it specifically states exactly this.
Wow, why is everybody getting their panties in a knot? You're probably all right. Some banks do .5x, some 1.5x OT, some based on your fluctuating weekly hour rate, some based on hourly rate over 40 hrs per week. You cant just look at your own offer letter and claim that is what everybody is getting paid.
I don't know what bank you are specifically working at, but I know at MS it was my salary divided by 40hrs and then any additional hours at that 1/2 rate. So it would be 33.65 for first 40 hrs, and then $16.83 for every hour over 40. I personally logged all of my hours (in IBD). Typically my associate would just look at it and tell me I am working to hard, if anything at all.
Wow. Uncle Sam really screwed me over....40% taxes on my relocation bonus? Is this what it feels like to be an "Evil wall st banker"?
And obama complains about bonuses...i dont get it
If a wall st ceo makes 500k a year and geta s 10 million dollar bonus....
He'd take home 300k in salary and 6 million in bonuses... 6.3m isnt much.
So half the NBA/NFL players make more than a Wall St CEO and nobody complains.
More taxes and regulation on the way.
You'll get a lot of it back, but its still annoying.
Do YOU record Overtime Hours? First Year Analyst (Originally Posted: 09/20/2014)
Hey, first post here so sorry if topic seems off. I created an account because I had no idea where else to ask this question, and thought many of you would have some helpful answers.
Anyway, here is my scenario:
Entry-level analyst/support role for Large Commercial Real Estate Firm. I support a team of brokers for different accounts. I am paid hourly and have two 'bosses'. I come into the office no later than 7:30 AM too review accounts and work with Boss #1. I don't leave the office until about 6:00 PM since my second boss is usually out on tours and does not get back to the office until later and I like to sit and review information with him. Subtract 30 minutes to an hour for lunch and I'm working over 9 hours a day.
Do the math, that's 5 hours of overtime I am legally suppose to record. However, another hourly analyst at my office told me he REFUSES to record any overtime - and he works about the same amount of time that I do!
I did not inquire to his reasons - but I am assuming he either A) wants to impress his superiors or B) does not want to appear to be 'milking' the company for extra cash.
I took this question to a close friend of mine who works at an investment bank on wall street. He just finished his Summer Analyst position and told me the same thing - he worked over 10 hours a day but did not record any overtime!
Is this some sort of unspoken rule that I am missing? I'm not trying to rack up as much money as possible from my company but it was their decision to pay me hourly and I feel my efforts and enthusiastic work should be accounted for.
What do you guys think - have you been in this situation?
um are you on salary? then you aren't entitled to anything. If youre hourly and it doesnt seem like the protocol then you are likely to be disliked real quick by asking for 15 more dollar
OP clearly states he's paid hourly.
OP, people in IB/consulting etc don't really get overtime/record it (from what I've read/heard/seen) - whether you choose to will have to be a decision you make. However, the impression you give working the extra hours without logging overtime will definitely be different to one you give if you log every minute of overtime you work.
It's a question of exempt or non exempt employment status. I'm not an expert but in my mind if you're paid hourly youre basically non exempt and should get overtime. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong and I know there are more legal criteria for the distinctions (but they tend to bring exempt employees back to non exempt from what I've seen rather than take a non-exempt to exempt). An FT IB analyst is definitely exempt or IB's would be paying a few hundred grand a year in overtime to them. Although it could be a way of "proving" yourself to get a promotion, it's an idiotic move on the part of the company because it opens them to lawsuits and big government fines.
Never been in the situation but I would record the hours and run it through my boss, somewhat regularly via email in order to have a written record of it. In my mind it's on them for making you an hourly employee.
I also would be looking for other work if I was at a company like that. I didn't go to school to be an hourly employee, let alone an hourly employee at a company where the culture appears to be taking it in the ass on compensation you are entitled to (by their choice to structure it that way BTW).
piggybacking on this, you don't want to seem too eager to take the extra time but you also have a right to record overtime if that's standard procedure. I would just ping your supervisor an email and say "I'm at X hours right now and if I work these hours on these days, I'll have X hours of overtime. I want to work because I have XYZ going on but I just wanted to let you know so there wouldn't be any surprises."
interesting
Thanks for the comments. There seems to be different views on the issue. Some things to consider: If someone in HR or the office manager is the one reviewing hours (not necessarily your direct supervisor), it may look bad that you clock in and leave right on the dot. Then again, you don't want to be milking the company for every dime possible. Is there a middle ground?
I agree with @archervice about it being shitty and perhaps looking for a new gig but I remember when I was first out of school I knew a couple of entry level analysts on the brokerage side (I worked in REPE so when we were buying something they were often my counterparts on the transaction) and I remember some weird hourly comp packages they had. I don't remember exact details because it was a long time ago and it wasn't me personally, but they were hourly employees who worked for a few different investment sales guy and were expected to work far more than 40 hours and not claim OT but at the end of the year or when a broker did a big deal the individual brokers would throw them bonuses. RE brokerage used to be very much this way-pay and treat the entry level guys like crap and make them earn the right to be producers-and I thought the industry had become slightly more institutional but I guess I was wrong. But a few of them advanced and have made really good money over the years.
In any case, it's still really stupid for a company to do this. It just opens up too much liability.
Relevant situation here.
Started in a position last fall 2013 (salaried). This July, the firm decided several entry level positions were non exempt, including mine. Back pay was going to be given to anyone who worked over 40 hours. I did not log over 40 hours, because I didn't think it was beneficial (to me personally at least), and will not get a dime. This isn't IB, so it's not like I was working 80+ hours a week, but in the range of 50-70. Would have been a nice check.
Now though, I record mine hours accurately and get overtime. If you are paid hourly, and will get paid in excess over 40 hours, record it. You're not working for free.
Interesting, do you work in CRE industry?
I don't have anything to add except this is BRUTAL and that truly sucks.
Take the overtime pay.
We aren't the right people to ask. Inquire with the two bosses and figure out what the office expectation is. The answer might be as simple as they expect you to book what you work and the other analyst has it totally wrong. They might not even be aware that you are working overtime. Worst that can happen is they tell you that the expectation is for you to eat a few hours a week...and at least then, you'll know.
Your bosses are not going to give a shit unless you are blatantly abusing the system
As long as you actually have work to do, I don't see how you're milking money or abusing the system. I don't think you're making $500/hour so the amount of overtime you're taking (5 hours) is nothing. The other analyst at your office is a fool that's being taken advantage of.
I say record it and see what happens. Maybe don't record 10 mins passed the hour, but when you work a full hour of overtime consistently, record it. 5 hours of overtime is not a lot. Worst case is you'll get an email or a talk along the lines of "We'd like to keep you working 40 hours or less" which means keep working as you are, but stop recording it. It could be PERFECTLY fine and you do not want to leave the money on the table.
I have employees and when they ask about overtime (they try and claim overtime "forgetting" about their unpaid lunches, usually not with bad intentions, they just don't know), I do not get upset even when they are stretching it. EVERYONE works to make money, no sense in being shy about it. I do laugh to myself afterwards though, but I also think they are the smart ones.
Overtime Pay in IBD (Originally Posted: 02/10/2014)
Got an offer from lower range BB (DB, Citi, CS, Barclays) and in the memorandum is says there is overtime pay, calculated over 40 hours. But my friends tell me banks don't pay overtime for junior SA. Wondering what the consensus is, if they say they pay overtime in offer they wouldn't lie right?
Pic related
Many of the BBs pay overtime, yes.
Is it the type of thing where you don't put as many hours as you actually work? Or am I safe to assume I can write down 90 hour weeks with huge overtime?
There are some groups where people have been encouraged to mismark their hours, but HR has generally weeded this practice out. It's safe to assume you can record a 90 hour work week.
DB pays overtime - its easy to check if you're lying FYI - not worth it for a few grand unless you're that desperate ...
Is your OT .5 base?
Generally we pay overtime to SA but not full-time employees. But don't try to put a absurd number of hours, because HR can easily weed you out if they want to. All they have to do is to check the time you swipe in and out.
Do operations positions pay overtime at the larger banks? (Originally Posted: 06/04/2015)
I would like to hear about how banks handle overtime for back office employees.
Thanks guys!
It depends on company policy, but my BB does. Non-officers would get either half time or time and half depending on their premium paid/non-premium paid status, which is really based on title. I wouldn't count on a bonus though.
I think it depend on the specific operation role as it is generally really broad. I know JPM provides OT for those in the OADP (project management)
Thanks for the responses guys. The position I am referring to is operations analyst on the trading desk (billing trades, monitoring settlements..). The research I have done tells me they usually pay .5 to 1.5 of your base hourly pay.
I'd love to hear from anyone else that may have some insight. Thanks.
Do you actually get paid Overtime? (Originally Posted: 07/08/2008)
Alright So I'm starting with Goldman Sachs,full time, on the 17th. I'm over at 85 broad as an operations analyst.
It states in my contract that "for every hour worked over 40 the overtime premium is equal to one-half your weekly salary divided by 40" That comes out to 35.
My question is how do they track the hours you are working?? My friend over at Citi says there is no check in/check out so how would they know I'm pulling 60 hours a week?
Thanks,
I'm a newbie.
i work at a mid market ibank and theres no clock in or out either, everything is on the honors system. however after submitting our time logs an admin approves it.. generally they will know if you are stretching the hours or not. be able to back up the hours with proof, obviously if you get asked... but more than likely it will not happen.
one intern was questioned for working much later than the rest of the interns for a pay cycle but things were cleared up relatively easy..
and yes we do get 1.5x base hourly salary
ethically, just don't put down more hours than you really worked. a couple of bucks here or there may add up short term, but long term its not worth the risk.
Cool Thanks a lot man! BTW Perhaps I should have clarified, but I'm not interning I am full time salary based.
Thanks again
Someone at GS tried telling me some of their ops work banker hours... if so... they'd be pulling over 150k a yr.... and thats assuming a 1st yr's base salary.
Non-administrative employees actually get 1/2 hourly salary for overtime, not 1.5x. If someone in Ops indeed worked banker hours, that would put them around 100k, not 150k which is more reasonable.
Nah, my friend working there said sometimes you will stay to 9, but that's it.
65 hours/wk tops as an ops analyst.
Does overtime pay matter??? (Originally Posted: 09/13/2007)
I was told that don't accept an offer if the firm doesn't have overtime.
Would you sign on with the company even though they don't have overtime? Thanks.
Is this an investment banking job? If so, yeah! Most jobs are salaried anyways.
I think we would need a few more details to give you a fair assessment of the opportunity.
wow..wouldn't that be a novel concept. If investment banks paid overtime they'd be broke! It would be insane to pay overtime to any role where management knows ahead of time there will be loads of work.
Overtime BB AM (Originally Posted: 05/08/2012)
hey guys, just finished my first week, and i haven't really been putting in 100 hours. My boss tells me to go home and finish the work the next day. been working 9-6 everyday, will it get busier or should i just put in the hours?
One of 2.
Yeah, are you serious? You thought AM would be 100 hours/week?
AM is generally out the door by 6pm, 8 at worst.
8 everyday, 10 earning season, i dont know then meaning of 100 hour week in AM.....heaven
^Normal people don't know the meaning of 100 hour work weeks either.
i am a quant at a top AM shop and my day is pretty much 8 to 6 on the worst days...
Im in at 8 and out at 5...doesnt get much better than that.. (with an hour lunch to go to the gym every day)
Salaries+ Overtime question (Originally Posted: 06/11/2011)
I am reading on the forums of people saying the work 70 hours for $50k , or like IB 80-90 hours for $100k+, what I was wondering is, is there overtime pay for you? Like I am currently s summer analyst in risk managment and I receive my salary based on 40 hours, if i go over I get overtime pay, if you take this into consideration, im working an average of 50 hour weeks.
For those doing ridiculous hours is your pay flat rate with no overtime, or your not taking it into account, also how do bonuses work for analysts.
You do not claim overtime. The bonus takes care of your hours.
Why do you not claim overtime? I do not understand this. Overtime+Bonus would make you very happy considering the ridiculous hours. I mean for now they want me to log my hours into a online software. I put my hours in as I work. I obv will not be getting a bonus, but will this impact a full time offer?
Buddy, in the real world when you work on salary you are exploited by your boss and/or company. Get used to it.
Thanks for posting this, I was about to start throwing monkey shit around here.
When in doubt, ask someone slightly more senior than you what the protocol is for this.
Compensation is a bit different from your SA to FT positions. SA you get overtime. FT you get a bonus. /endthread
Thanks
No such a thing as overtime in IB.
FT no overtime. Not even in my bus dev position. The bonus kind of replaces overtime.
Overtime? (Originally Posted: 08/14/2010)
First post; I've been reading and enjoying the forums from the sidelines for a couple weeks.
I'm interested to hear from employees/those in the know if any BB PWM/AM firms are currently paying overtime for entry level (or slightly above) analysts, etc...
A friend of mine (recent JD) has told me that many BB PWM/AM divisions now pay overtime to non-managerial employees as a result of previous unpaid wages-type lawsuits. Any credibility to this?
I have a few friends doing AM at a few BBs and they've told me you're supposed to log your hours and get your overtime BUT no one really does this as there is a fear your bonus will correlate negatively to your OT
so yeah, technically, some BBs have started offering OT - but most people don't take it
Never heard of anyone getting OT hours at my BB while I was there.
Hello
Even i have never heard from my cousin if he is getting Ot for hid induced hours .
Thanks http://www.fintel.us/
most people don't take it
GS IBD Overtime Pay? (Originally Posted: 11/05/2013)
Hey guys,
I know GS IBD is 70k prorated plus 1k housing, but I was wondering if they also pay overtime, and if so, what that would be? Thanks. I know some other BB banks do, but I was told GS might not.
GS does not, at least not in NYC.
How do they get away with that, if some other banks do? Does it not affect their recruiting?
lol how much can they save on a broader picture for underpaying interns?
lol that is lame.
Probably a few hundred thousand dollars per summer at least...
Ratione commodi necessitatibus omnis reprehenderit omnis nam aut. Sint ut beatae accusamus est hic ut qui. Sequi sint error dolores quam vel.
Nam nemo qui dignissimos sunt. Ducimus assumenda dolorem magni nulla cum voluptates. Velit at eum est ut ea. Eaque quasi esse ex molestias sed est rerum.
Vero eligendi soluta quisquam unde. Aut est magni ut voluptate sapiente aut. Ea ullam reprehenderit nisi voluptas laborum.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Eligendi eius eos aut doloribus. Autem nam nulla quia ut. Dolor aut blanditiis possimus earum dolorem aliquam. Ut iusto modi ea odio aut nisi voluptas alias. Atque est debitis quibusdam et qui quisquam eveniet.
Aut modi ex et dolore cumque occaecati qui. Quia sed nesciunt illo. Itaque cupiditate voluptatum molestiae qui omnis nihil. Aut eveniet voluptas itaque dolor quia quis a.
Illum quia sed officia omnis et ipsa eius eius. Quas omnis omnis voluptate ratione quibusdam. Consequuntur voluptas nemo dolorem nihil molestiae modi.
Aliquam voluptas cupiditate in quo minus repellendus. Repellendus repellat sint dolore id ut similique. Accusamus autem impedit nostrum beatae dolor numquam facere. Ad autem alias quisquam exercitationem. Accusantium voluptatem quasi et.
Nihil numquam eius praesentium. Commodi aut iste placeat delectus rem. Cupiditate molestias rerum error corrupti corporis perferendis aut blanditiis. Et ut vel incidunt dignissimos mollitia eveniet et harum. Quia officia temporibus tempora quasi ea dolores ratione. Asperiores qui iure numquam eius.
Est nisi et ut possimus illo deleniti molestiae aut. Hic sequi accusantium est debitis. Voluptate qui odit hic nihil excepturi velit ut tenetur. Quia nam dolorem porro rerum excepturi alias. Et omnis excepturi laboriosam earum nulla dolorem. Soluta et occaecati quas illo sint qui et. Et deleniti magni ut saepe non ipsum et sunt.
Blanditiis voluptatem voluptas ut numquam nisi laudantium provident. Sint et mollitia repellat. Repudiandae nobis omnis in laudantium dolor voluptas.
Omnis labore qui praesentium enim optio libero quam similique. Quis corporis enim voluptatem incidunt dolorem.
Eum recusandae aut et. Magni placeat sit consequuntur architecto. Qui aliquid soluta ut officia cumque. Est voluptatem est rerum et minima quia molestiae quis.
Qui neque ut dignissimos suscipit. Consequatur dicta pariatur excepturi fugit. Vel pariatur reprehenderit repellat qui sunt.
Reiciendis at ut suscipit dignissimos et dolore rerum sit. Deleniti molestiae eveniet repudiandae corrupti. Eveniet ut at ratione porro blanditiis. Vel labore alias accusantium accusamus est repudiandae voluptas. Fuga fugit consequuntur laborum amet corporis.