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Does buy-side have the automatic promotion as in sell-side?

Comments (52)

  • turtles's picture

    Not sure what you're asking... There is no "automatic promotion" (i.e. guaranteed to stay with the company as an analyst and associate and vp etc.) on any side. Rephrase your question.

  • bankerella's picture

    You know that "automatic promotion" is the same thing as "up or out," right?

  • In reply to bankerella
    HedgeKing's picture

    bankerella wrote:
    You know that "automatic promotion" is the same thing as "up or out," right?

    Yes. Does the buy-side have the same thing? Or one may be an associate for 10 years or more in buy-side?

    In sell-side, if you get to stay, you will automatically advance in rank after certain number of years. It seems the buy-side career doesn't work that way.

  • HFFBALLfan123's picture

    The fund will grow from the lower levels IMO, meaning if you are constantly raising funds and putting money to work you will need to hire new analysts/associates you'll play a bigger role. If this isn't the case, most leave and go to a new fund... No idiot stays an associate in PE until they are 45.

  • In reply to HFFBALLfan123
    HedgeKing's picture

    HFFBALLfan123 wrote:
    The fund will grow from the lower levels IMO, meaning if you are constantly raising funds and putting money to work you will need to hire new analysts/associates you'll play a bigger role. If this isn't the case, most leave and go to a new fund... No idiot stays an associate in PE until they are 45.

    Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    bankerella's picture

    HedgeKing wrote:

    Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

    Interesting that you say that. When I was doing my big longitudinal banker career data crawl last month, one thing I was surprised to learn is that some people do stay at the associate level for 5+ years when they bounce from firm to firm on the sellside.

  • In reply to bankerella
    HedgeKing's picture

    bankerella wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:

    Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

    Interesting that you say that. When I was doing my big longitudinal banker career data crawl last month, one thing I was surprised to learn is that some people do stay at the associate level for 5+ years when they bounce from firm to firm on the sellside.

    But that is not that common on the sell-side, and that's why you are surprised. But is that quite common on the buy-side?

  • UFOinsider's picture

    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    Get busy living

  • HedgeKing's picture

    Let's say you are an associate good at modelling. On the sell-side, because of the "up or out" system, if the firm wants to continue to use your modelling skill, they have to develop your other skills for the higher ranks too. On the buy-side, without the "up or out" system, there is no incentives for the firm to develop your other skills for higher ranks, and you may end up as an associate doing modelling all your career in the firm.

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    bankerella's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.

  • HedgeKing's picture

    The "up or out" system on the sell-side forces the firm to develop your future skills in order to continue to use your current skills. In a way, it serves as a protection for the future of the young bankers.

    On the buy-side, you lose that protection.

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    HFFBALLfan123's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

    So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.

  • In reply to bankerella
    UFOinsider's picture

    bankerella wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.


    LOL kinda like politics

    Get busy living

  • In reply to HFFBALLfan123
    UFOinsider's picture

    HFFBALLfan123 wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

    So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.


    Very interesting, thank you. Followup question: is there any benefit to a person's career to stay in one role, as described above? Aside from obviously not moving up the food chain, can becoming specialized be beneficial? Or is someone who's extremely effective at building models or some other task get looked at as an oddity?

    Get busy living

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    F. Ro Jo's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    bankerella wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.


    LOL kinda like politics

    Or consulting.

  • NewGuy's picture

    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

  • In reply to NewGuy
    HedgeKing's picture

    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    UFOinsider's picture

    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?


    add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

    Get busy living

  • In reply to Soapy.Detergent
    bankerella's picture

    Soapy.Detergent wrote:
    bankerella wrote:
    "up or out,"

    Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

    Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.

  • In reply to bankerella
    Soapy.Detergent's picture

    bankerella wrote:
    Soapy.Detergent wrote:
    bankerella wrote:
    "up or out,"

    Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

    Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.

    Cougars can't be choosers. Unless they have something exceptional to offer, which is rare. Pumas or pre-cougars have a little more leeway.

  • In reply to bankerella
    UFOinsider's picture

    bankerella wrote:
    Soapy.Detergent wrote:
    bankerella wrote:
    "up or out,"

    Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

    Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.


    Hey, what's wrong with slumming it? Ever get an itch that respectable folk just don't scratch? We can rent a caddie and troll, you want wheel or shottie?

    Get busy living

  • In reply to F. Ro Jo
    ladubs111's picture

    F. Ro Jo wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    bankerella wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.


    LOL kinda like politics

    Or consulting.

    Or like IR, and C-lvl execs.

  • BTbanker's picture
  • In reply to BTbanker
    Soapy.Detergent's picture

    BTbanker wrote:
    NO.

    Have you graduated from college yet?

  • In reply to Soapy.Detergent
    BTbanker's picture

    Soapy.Detergent wrote:
    BTbanker wrote:
    NO.

    Have you graduated from college yet?


    NO.

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    NewGuy's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?


    add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

    Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

    My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

  • In reply to NewGuy
    Soapy.Detergent's picture

    NewGuy wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?


    add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

    Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

    My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

    Thanks for the insight. You're one of the few respectable people still left here. Keep up the good work.

  • In reply to BTbanker
    Soapy.Detergent's picture

    BTbanker wrote:
    Soapy.Detergent wrote:
    BTbanker wrote:
    NO.

    Have you graduated from college yet?


    NO.

    Do you think maybe you can at least get some kind of diploma before you start spewing authoritative sounding answers in all-caps?

    The correct answer from someone with many years of experience is that it depends on the firm.

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    HFFBALLfan123's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    HFFBALLfan123 wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

    Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

    Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

    So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.


    Very interesting, thank you. Followup question: is there any benefit to a person's career to stay in one role, as described above? Aside from obviously not moving up the food chain, can becoming specialized be beneficial? Or is someone who's extremely effective at building models or some other task get looked at as an oddity?

    IMO, no. You don't want to be the asshole running the models your entire life, you either want to move up within the fund, move to another fund or possibly re-position yourself via b-school.

    Controling the models at a junior level and actually being the only one on the team who knows all the ins and outs of them and how they all move together is very valuable. Most funds don't want to re-train someone on all of the models and tbh, most senior guys really don't grasp the complexity behind the models.

  • In reply to NewGuy
    HedgeKing's picture

    NewGuy wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?


    add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

    Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

    My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

    So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    NewGuy's picture

    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    UFOinsider wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    NewGuy wrote:
    I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

    But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?


    add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

    Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

    My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

    So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?


    No brother

  • In reply to NewGuy
    HedgeKing's picture

    NewGuy wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:

    So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?

    No brother

    Did you pick up a new skill set in your four years at this buy-side form?

  • HedgeKing's picture

    So here is what I see as the buy-side career peril. Say you are hired as a (post-MBA) buy-side associate for your modelling skills. The firm really has no incentive and under no pressure to develop your other skills except using your modelling skills. You can end up stuck in your modelling role and not be able to move up. Sure you can contact headhunters for other buy-side opportunities. But what can you bring to the table except your modelling skills? So you will move to another buy-side firm doing modelling works again.

    Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    UFOinsider's picture

    HedgeKing wrote:
    Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

    You were close for a little, now you're just wandering off into inaccurate conjecture. Keep reading...

    Get busy living

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    HedgeKing's picture

    UFOinsider wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

    You were close for a little, now you're just wandering off into inaccurate conjecture. Keep reading...

    Many posters in WSO tried to make buy-side sound better than what it actually is.

    Anyone from the buy-side wants to defend the careers in their side?

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    HedgeKing's picture

    Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    NewGuy's picture

    HedgeKing wrote:
    Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

    Many posters are probably pro-democracy too. Is that bad too brother?

  • SirTradesaLot's picture

    I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

    adapt or die wrote:
    What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

    MY BLOG

  • In reply to NewGuy
    HedgeKing's picture

    NewGuy wrote:
    HedgeKing wrote:
    Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

    Many posters are probably pro-democracy too. Is that bad too brother?

    Pro-democracy of course is good.

  • In reply to SirTradesaLot
    HedgeKing's picture

    SirTradesaLot wrote:
    I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

    How long have you been on the buy-side? What kind of career progression you have seen on the buy-side so far?

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    SirTradesaLot's picture

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    adapt or die wrote:
    What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

    MY BLOG

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    SirTradesaLot's picture

    adapt or die wrote:
    What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

    MY BLOG

  • In reply to HedgeKing
    UFOinsider's picture

    Get busy living

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