9/13/12

Does buy-side have the automatic promotion as in sell-side?

Comments (52)

9/13/12

Not sure what you're asking... There is no "automatic promotion" (i.e. guaranteed to stay with the company as an analyst and associate and vp etc.) on any side. Rephrase your question.

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9/13/12

You know that "automatic promotion" is the same thing as "up or out," right?

9/13/12

The fund will grow from the lower levels IMO, meaning if you are constantly raising funds and putting money to work you will need to hire new analysts/associates you'll play a bigger role. If this isn't the case, most leave and go to a new fund... No idiot stays an associate in PE until they are 45.

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:

You know that "automatic promotion" is the same thing as "up or out," right?

Yes. Does the buy-side have the same thing? Or one may be an associate for 10 years or more in buy-side?

In sell-side, if you get to stay, you will automatically advance in rank after certain number of years. It seems the buy-side career doesn't work that way.

In reply to HFFBALLfan123
9/13/12
HFFBALLfan123:

The fund will grow from the lower levels IMO, meaning if you are constantly raising funds and putting money to work you will need to hire new analysts/associates you'll play a bigger role. If this isn't the case, most leave and go to a new fund... No idiot stays an associate in PE until they are 45.

Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

In reply to HedgeKing
9/13/12
HedgeKing:

Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

Interesting that you say that. When I was doing my big longitudinal banker career data crawl last month, one thing I was surprised to learn is that some people do stay at the associate level for 5+ years when they bounce from firm to firm on the sellside.

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:
HedgeKing:

Well, they may bounce around among different funds but stay at the the rank, right?

Interesting that you say that. When I was doing my big longitudinal banker career data crawl last month, one thing I was surprised to learn is that some people do stay at the associate level for 5+ years when they bounce from firm to firm on the sellside.

But that is not that common on the sell-side, and that's why you are surprised. But is that quite common on the buy-side?

9/13/12

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

Get busy living

9/13/12

Let's say you are an associate good at modelling. On the sell-side, because of the "up or out" system, if the firm wants to continue to use your modelling skill, they have to develop your other skills for the higher ranks too. On the buy-side, without the "up or out" system, there is no incentives for the firm to develop your other skills for higher ranks, and you may end up as an associate doing modelling all your career in the firm.

In reply to UFOinsider
9/13/12
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.

9/13/12

The "up or out" system on the sell-side forces the firm to develop your future skills in order to continue to use your current skills. In a way, it serves as a protection for the future of the young bankers.

On the buy-side, you lose that protection.

In reply to UFOinsider
9/13/12
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.

LOL kinda like politics

Get busy living

In reply to HFFBALLfan123
9/13/12
HFFBALLfan123:
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.

Very interesting, thank you. Followup question: is there any benefit to a person's career to stay in one role, as described above? Aside from obviously not moving up the food chain, can becoming specialized be beneficial? Or is someone who's extremely effective at building models or some other task get looked at as an oddity?

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
9/13/12
UFOinsider:
bankerella:
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.

LOL kinda like politics

Or consulting.

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9/13/12

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

In reply to NewGuy
9/13/12
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

In reply to HedgeKing
9/13/12
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

Get busy living

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:

"up or out,"

Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

In reply to Soapy.Detergent
9/13/12
Soapy.Detergent:
bankerella:

"up or out,"

Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:
Soapy.Detergent:
bankerella:

"up or out,"

Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.

Cougars can't be choosers. Unless they have something exceptional to offer, which is rare. Pumas or pre-cougars have a little more leeway.

In reply to F. Ro Jo
9/13/12
F. Ro Jo:
UFOinsider:
bankerella:
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

When a banker doesn't want to commit to stating the answer to something, they say some smart-sounding shit that they do believe is true and which is vaguely related.

LOL kinda like politics

Or consulting.

Or like IR, and C-lvl execs.

9/13/12
In reply to BTbanker
9/13/12
BTbanker:

NO.

Have you graduated from college yet?

In reply to bankerella
9/13/12
bankerella:
Soapy.Detergent:
bankerella:

"up or out,"

Is that what you also tell your poor analysts when you're lookin' for a little afternoon delight?

Ewww. Analysts? I might as well go out to the boroughs and scoop 18-year-olds off the street.

Hey, what's wrong with slumming it? Ever get an itch that respectable folk just don't scratch? We can rent a caddie and troll, you want wheel or shottie?

Get busy living

In reply to Soapy.Detergent
9/13/12
Soapy.Detergent:
BTbanker:

NO.

Have you graduated from college yet?

NO.

In reply to UFOinsider
9/13/12
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

In reply to NewGuy
9/13/12
NewGuy:
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

Thanks for the insight. You're one of the few respectable people still left here. Keep up the good work.

In reply to BTbanker
9/13/12
BTbanker:
Soapy.Detergent:
BTbanker:

NO.

Have you graduated from college yet?

NO.

Do you think maybe you can at least get some kind of diploma before you start spewing authoritative sounding answers in all-caps?

The correct answer from someone with many years of experience is that it depends on the firm.

In reply to UFOinsider
9/13/12
UFOinsider:
HFFBALLfan123:
UFOinsider:

wow, people here can never just answer a straight question. Examples: yes. no. I don't know.

Question is: is buyside up or out like sell side?

Every single HF/PE shop is different regarding size, number of funds, number of front office employees etc. If you work for a mega fund, my guess is the career progression will be very similar to a sell side role. If you work for a sub-bilion dollar fund who is having trouble raising additional funds, you may be stuck in that role until the need to bring someone under you to relieve you and your boss, in which case talented younger employees will reach out to a headhunter.

So, as you can see the answer obviously isn't a clear yes or no.

Very interesting, thank you. Followup question: is there any benefit to a person's career to stay in one role, as described above? Aside from obviously not moving up the food chain, can becoming specialized be beneficial? Or is someone who's extremely effective at building models or some other task get looked at as an oddity?

IMO, no. You don't want to be the asshole running the models your entire life, you either want to move up within the fund, move to another fund or possibly re-position yourself via b-school.

Controling the models at a junior level and actually being the only one on the team who knows all the ins and outs of them and how they all move together is very valuable. Most funds don't want to re-train someone on all of the models and tbh, most senior guys really don't grasp the complexity behind the models.

In reply to NewGuy
9/13/12
NewGuy:
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?

In reply to HedgeKing
9/13/12
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:
NewGuy:

I still have the same title I had when I joined my fund four years ago, but I currently earn a $h*t ton more. Hope that answers your question.

But have you been in more or less the same role, just doing much better than four years ago, with the same kind of skill set?

add on question: are you doing the same thing? If so, why are they paying you more? If not...please go into detail. Your perspective is pretty valuable to us

Because when I joined, a 'conviction' pitch of mine might have earned a $50mm investment. Today, it could earn a $500mm investment.

My work is no different. My respect and preftige is. When you make very good calls, people start to listen and your value increases exponentially.

So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?

No brother

In reply to NewGuy
9/13/12
NewGuy:
HedgeKing:

So at the time when you joined the buy-side four years ago, you were already very good at your craft. Over the last four years, you have built up your track record based on this craft and perhaps enhanced your craft. But it is basically the same craft you brought to the firm four years ago, though now with your track record you are getting paid much more. Is this basically correct?

No brother

Did you pick up a new skill set in your four years at this buy-side form?

9/13/12

So here is what I see as the buy-side career peril. Say you are hired as a (post-MBA) buy-side associate for your modelling skills. The firm really has no incentive and under no pressure to develop your other skills except using your modelling skills. You can end up stuck in your modelling role and not be able to move up. Sure you can contact headhunters for other buy-side opportunities. But what can you bring to the table except your modelling skills? So you will move to another buy-side firm doing modelling works again.

Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12
HedgeKing:

Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

You were close for a little, now you're just wandering off into inaccurate conjecture. Keep reading...

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
9/14/12
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:

Is the buy-side really the "promised land" that some in this forum tried to portray? I don't think so.

You were close for a little, now you're just wandering off into inaccurate conjecture. Keep reading...

Many posters in WSO tried to make buy-side sound better than what it actually is.

Anyone from the buy-side wants to defend the careers in their side?

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12

Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12
HedgeKing:

Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

Many posters are probably pro-democracy too. Is that bad too brother?

9/14/12

I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to NewGuy
9/14/12
NewGuy:
HedgeKing:

Many posters in WSO have pro-buy-side bias. I simply point out one aspect that often gets overlooked.

Many posters are probably pro-democracy too. Is that bad too brother?

Pro-democracy of course is good.

In reply to SirTradesaLot
9/14/12
SirTradesaLot:

I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

How long have you been on the buy-side? What kind of career progression you have seen on the buy-side so far?

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12
HedgeKing:
SirTradesaLot:

I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

How long have you been on the buy-side? What kind of career progression you have seen on the buy-side so far?

I'll be intentionally vague by saying 'over 5 years'. I started a hedge fund/asset mgt firm a few years back as well. More info here:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/qa-interview-w...

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to SirTradesaLot
9/14/12
SirTradesaLot:
HedgeKing:
SirTradesaLot:

I prefer the buy side. Instead of trying to rip the face off my clients, I can try to rip the face off of banks and other professional investors.

How long have you been on the buy-side? What kind of career progression you have seen on the buy-side so far?

I'll be intentionally vague by saying 'over 5 years'. I started a hedge fund/asset mgt firm a few years back as well. More info here:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/qa-interview-w...

So you already climbed to senior management position at large investment bank and asset manager before starting your own hedge fund/asset manager. That's different from the situation I am discussing here. I am talking about young bankers jumping to the buy-side at very junior level. I think they are making a career mistake. That's totally different from your situation.

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12
HedgeKing:

I think they are making a career mistake.

Didn't see that. Why do you think so?

adapt or die:
What would P.T. Barnum say about you?

MY BLOG

In reply to SirTradesaLot
9/14/12
SirTradesaLot:
HedgeKing:

I think they are making a career mistake.

Didn't see that. Why do you think so?

In a typical PE/HF, without the "up or out" system, the firm has neither the structure nor the incentive to develop a young associate skills other than the skills he/she is hired for. One can end up in the same role for years. Of course, mega funds and large asset managers are exceptions.

In reply to HedgeKing
9/14/12
HedgeKing:
SirTradesaLot:
HedgeKing:

I think they are making a career mistake.

Didn't see that. Why do you think so?

In a typical PE/HF, without the "up or out" system, the firm has neither the structure nor the incentive to develop a young associate skills other than the skills he/she is hired for. One can end up in the same role for years. Of course, mega funds and large asset managers are exceptions.

I think you misunderstand how these shops work, and sell side as well. Sell side doesn't make a huge effort to develop you...either YOU develop or you're booted out. It's not done to help you, it's done to ensure that the most proactive and productive people stick around and the slackers are cut.

If you're in a shop where they'll keep you around as long as you're useful, then you actually have more of a luxury to (1) get extremely good at something and (2) have a longer time horizen to network your way over to an area you want / start assuming responsibility for your own career progression. Given the forced advancement method vs the thinking of "you're welcome here as long as you do this task and if you want to do extra, then more power to you" kind of shop. That's just me though.

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
9/14/12
UFOinsider:
HedgeKing:
SirTradesaLot:
HedgeKing:

I think they are making a career mistake.

Didn't see that. Why do you think so?

In a typical PE/HF, without the "up or out" system, the firm has neither the structure nor the incentive to develop a young associate skills other than the skills he/she is hired for. One can end up in the same role for years. Of course, mega funds and large asset managers are exceptions.

I think you misunderstand how these shops work, and sell side as well. Sell side doesn't make a huge effort to develop you...either YOU develop or you're booted out. It's not done to help you, it's done to ensure that the most proactive and productive people stick around and the slackers are cut.

If you're in a shop where they'll keep you around as long as you're useful, then you actually have more of a luxury to (1) get extremely good at something and (2) have a longer time horizen to network your way over to an area you want / start assuming responsibility for your own career progression. Given the forced advancement method vs the thinking of "you're welcome here as long as you do this task and if you want to do extra, then more power to you" kind of shop. That's just me though.

The sell-side though would not make a huge effort to develop your other skills, it would at least make the opportunities available to those they want to keep. Those opportunities are not that abundant in a typical PE/HF.

Would like to hear some personal experiences from those on the buy-side.

9/14/12

You're talking nonsense brother

9/15/12

There definitely is no automatic promotion at most hedge funds. One thing that is misunderstood by the majority of WSO posters is that at a hedge fund you are hired to do a job, not to join some training program. So if you are hired to be an analyst in research that is where you will stay...you may get a raise if you do a good job and occasionally you see people "graduate" to more senior roles but more often portfolio managers and other senior hires come from outside the firm and are experienced hires. Investors dont invest in hedge funds so that they can develop the careers of younger people, so no, nothing is automatic in terms of promotion.

In reply to Bondarb
9/19/12

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In reply to HFFBALLfan123
9/19/12
In reply to Soapy.Detergent
2/20/15

Fortes fortuna adiuvat.

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