Starting a small, personal Hedge fund
Just curious, how hard is it to start a one person, personal hedge fund? About how much would it cost? This has been done recently by a Wharton Grad who interned at DE Shaw. So it can be done. I recall him saying he is the President, Manager, and only investor. Something along the lines of that.
the costs are fairly high, so unless you have some genius algo to make you mil/bil lions, it seems like a stretch. I worked for a small hedge fund from a dorm this year, and made fairly good $ from it, but it went bust 1 month after me leaving.
We were using algos that behaved perfectly when back-tested, and worked well in gen for a while; but later, it fucked up. Now the kid is in debt up to his throat (it was a sole proprietorship) after all the loans he took to leverage his postn
A one-man fund with one investor is called your personal account.
That isn't a hedge fund, it's your own money you're investing into whatever you want.
The retard is strong with this one.
haha, just read the full post sober ... ya, thats not an HF lol
free to start, easy to run. the following link should walk you through it.
www.etrade.com
Is it just me or has there been an unreal influx of retards lately?
That's my line.
Make sure your investors understand the risks associated with investing in your hedge fund first, for legal purposes. There's a good chance they aren't sophisticated enough to qualify for investment in a hedge fund.
Relax with the comments guys. I didn't mean he had only 1 investor, I meant he was the only guy running the thing.
This is the article. http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-02-24/wall_street/29969326_1_i….
“Right now it’s just me,” he told Bloomberg. “I am the CEO, I am the secretary, and I am the chief marketing officer.”
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-02-24/wall_street/29969326_1_i…
.
I'm guessing fund formation was much easier back in the day. How did Ray Dalio start Bridgewater in his apartment and Ken Griffin start Citadel. Did they actually have tens of millions of dollars in seed capital at only 22 years old?
Dalio started Bridgewater as a consulting company, and the hedge fund bit came much later; Griffin six figures in seed money when he was an undergrad.
There's a long tradition of starting unofficial hedge funds when you're young. I don't know the statute of limitations on this, so no details, but: I was definitely managing some accounts for family friends back in the day, and just getting paid a piece of the assets under management. I think that's similar to the arrangement Cramer had before his fund: he just ran an account for Marty Peretz, and they split the profits--no contracts, no registration, etc.
Illegal, yes, but that's not the situation they had in mind when they made it illegal.
To answer your original question, it is needlessly difficult and virtually pointless. Just focus on trading your own money and possibly some of your family's if you have the rocks. You're probably more likely to turn into Tim Sykes by starting a fund in college than Ken Griffin.
Tim Sykes = my all time favorite WS personality http://gawker.com/302379/hedge-funder-tim-sykes-bombs-out-on-wall-street
[quote=BlackHat]Tim Sykes = my all time favorite WS personality http://gawker.com/302379/hedge-funder-tim-sykes-bombs-out-on-wall-stree…] That story is my favorite part of his whole saga. Rejected by Trader Monthly, pure gold.
The startup costs to launching a fund aren't really that prohibitive -- the hard part is landing an anchor investor who will actually be willing to be your guinea pig. The cost of starting a fund is around $20k at the low end for all legal expenses. Then you have to think about admin and audit, but if you have a decent sized initial AUM (1-2mil), you should be able to pay your expenses out of your fees.
Yeah I think that's a key part of the story.
Me and my partner are basically trying to do a similar thing (although we're quant guys, not value), except without having worked in finance before and without having people who want to bribe our fathers with millions of dollars. It's, uh, a bit harder.
I did this in college too, mine was completely under the table and not as large of an AUM. This kid pisses me off because I'd venture to guess he had/has no clue what he's doing but has a daddy who can help him out with investors. Don't take his story as a success story if you're trying to do the same thing.
WHAT THE HELL IS A HEDGE FUND AND HOW DO U START ONE (Originally Posted: 01/20/2008)
im an ambitious kid that's interested in money and economy. How do you start a hedge fund
and how does a hedge fund differ from other financial institutions in how they handle assets????
Post if you will, thanks.
lol.
www.google.com
www.wikipedia.org
------
"its the running joke now, we now have fair trade with china so they send us poisoned sea food and we send them fraudulent securities."
That has to be one of the funniest quotes I've ever seen.
A hedge fund grows shrubbery, horticulture is where the new money is at since the subprime crisis.
The reason it is so profitable is because the "fund" grows exponentially as the hedge bushes reproduce.
Stern's right.
Eventually, once the fund of hedges grows to a certain size, it can then be harvested and the biomass can then be converted into ethanol.
The real trick however lies with the hedge fund manager. A good one knows exactly how much sunlight and fertilizer each type of hedge needs and thus will yield the best result.
Good Luck!
I have a 3.5 GPA and go to a non-target. What are my chances at harvesting hedges?
Man, nice job guys...nice job. Dont keep the man in the dark about how to best leverage all that high grade shrub and bush and fertiliser to augment returns now, and how to program the pruners to re-trim the hedge heights for optimal diversity in the hedge portfolio. Do continue to sprout the abundant wisdom. Treat the above posters with respect ecoe and they might let you in on a few tricks of the HF trade.
I'm surprised no one has brought up this key fact about various hedges in use. Everyone forgets about the fact that not all seeds are ripe for the hedge fund world. Are we talking about using a standard american shrubery, or a eurpean hedge? How about a nice japanese-style bonsai bloomer? Also, there are comodity hedges that make great use of proper sunlight and fertilizer which will generate non-corrolated gains to the rest of your hedges because these aren't tied into the ethanol/replant cycle.
I'm personally enamored by a nice hedge or shrub that's not too expensive but appreicates well, and fits well into my nihilistic view of the current markets.
how lazy is the OP? I mean SERIOUSLY. Look for a NYMAG article called "Above the Hedge", it explains it. If you want to start a hedge fund, you can't be lazy and dumb, both of which you are. So you can't start one.
You also need $ + credibility. Don't see either...
Haha you could always pull a Tim Sykes; invest during some bubble, make a cool million and then flaunt around how you made so much in order to get people to think you are some big shot trader. Convince these people to give you a lot of money in order to trade it into billions. Be an asshole. Lose about 35% of the money given to you, liquidate your remaining assets, and start a publishing company.
Then, start a website where you try and make a million out of your bar-mitzvah money again in order to regain some lost shred of credibility.
Glad I could help.
Make a lot of money. You start one by making a lot of money. So, sounds like you won't be starting one anytime soon.
If you do have a lot of money, though, let me know - I'll be happy to take some of yours and make more with it.
^burn!!!
I somehow got onto the tim sykes e-mailing list... and I can't unsubscribe!!!
Sue him for soliciting spam......
You know how you were told that money grows on trees, well basically everyone that told you that was wrong. Hedge funds basically raise money trees. I recommend a double major in agriculture and finance.
Right! Go to Cornell!
I appreciate everyone's concern about ecological issues (we are in the green era, after all) but I'm shocked no one mentioned the importance of animal rights activism- the hedge hogs of the world need the brightest & most driven minds fighting for their cause too! Basically a hedge fund is an activist animal rights group that raises money for the preservation of hedge hogs. Highly profitable- you wouldn't know it, but there are over 1000 separate species of hedge hogs--for instance short haired, long haired, long & sort haired etc. Consider taking zoology or biological classification courses before you graduate as well.
I seriously looked into getting a hedgehog for a while, but decided that my work schedule just wasn't condusive to the well being of any living animal.
its a shame that you all fell that way, but hey i guess thats life. Thanks for everything
don't be a baby. If you lay yourself out like that expect to get nailed.
If you want to find out about this sort of thing, start with google, wiki is good as well, or, go to a bookstore. Better yet, ask friends or parents of friends, or friends of parents of friends. Start smaller though and try to get a handle on what the stock market is, what finance is, how an investment bank works, how this is different from a retail bank, what products they offer, how companies can make money with debt products or equity products or advisory products etc. Get the basics right. I'm not trying to bollock you, but for people who have some experience, we're on here trying to add a small amount of value add to guide less experienced people through the early parts of their careers. When we see something like this...
HAHAHA some funny shit
i really wanted a hedge hog, no joke.
once i had a friend who accidentally stepped on a chipmunk and crushed it.
also, i know two football plays with chinchillas. they're cute - but kinda random...
this is one of the funniest forums on WSO by far. but seriously, what do the senior monkeys think of tim sykes - savvy investor or overrated prick?
Tim Sykes asked me to be his "friend" on facebook. I don't know the guy, yet I can't even hide from him. Tim Sykes = Big Brother?! Maybe that's what washed-up "millionaires" do with their free time...
The things I leave in the toilet every morning are mmore qualified than Sykes
http://modernyuppie.blogspot.com/ The musings and antics of a Meathead college wrestler turned asset backed securities trader.
yea you should try looking up at least basics before you post a question on the forum.
But basically a hedge fund is a group of people that manage money of very high net worth individuals. Hedging means to mitigate risk by implementing various investment strategies to offset each others risk, such as swaps, derivatives, and taking advantage of arbitrage. While some hedge funds do do this, this definition doesnt really apply to hedge funds.
In reality hedge funds probably take on more risk in order to have higher returns for their clients. What makes a hedge fund fundamentally different than other money managing entities is that they are highly unregulated (although this is beginning to change) and the lack of regulations allows for them to bend the rules and implement nontraditional investment strategies to increase returns.
If I am wrong somewhere feel free to correct me. You should look this stuff up to get a better handle on it and to get more detail too.
Starting at sub $1B hedge fund? (Originally Posted: 10/09/2008)
I've read on here that you generally want to work, or at least start, your career at a hedge fund with at least $1B AUM. What is the reasoning for this, and is there ever a situation where you personally would ignore this?
A unique opportunity has surfaced for me at a roughly $500M hedge fund near my hometown, which is far from NYC. On one hand, I am a bit hesitant because I don't necessarily want to go back and work in my hometown, and I am concerned that a lack of a big name on my resume will hold me back from moving on to larger funds in my career.
On the other hand, the alum that brought this opportunity to my attention started at this fund before going to his current firm in NYC, which is an extremely large and well-known multi-strat HF. He said these guys run a legit shop, have been in business for over 10 years, and are actually up YTD. Also, obviously the current hiring market is complete shit, so this may end up being a fantastic opportunity.
Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Who cares if it a sub-$1B fund in this market - I'd take it if I were you.
Unless of course you have tons of other offers to consider.
But I've heard that you might not learn as much if you start at a small shop since they won't have much of a training program. It also is a bit of a gamble, because if the fund blows up or the partners decide they don't want to mess with it anymore, it could be difficult to move somewhere else since the name wouldn't be well known. Again, this is just what I've heard, I don't know how accurate it is and am looking for other opinions.
I've heard it's always better to get a brand name on your resume, since it allows you to move anywhere and people instantly understand what kinds of training and experiences you've had ... but in this market, you take a job when you're given a job.
A brand name on your resume only gets you in the door. If working at this hedge fund would provide you with excellent experience, why wouldn't you take it.
such as what kind of position is it?
It's your standard equity junior analyst/associate gig.
they're up YTD and it's front office - take it. (also fwd my resume to them plz ... lol.) unless you have a lot of other options which i doubt in this environment.
Obviously I would take it if it ends up being my only offer, but I just wanted to see what others thought. This is exactly the type of job I want to do, but I wasn't sure if starting my career at a shop that isn't massive or a household name would hurt me in the future. But it isn't like I'm working for a guy out of his basement, as this is a legit shop that has been around for a decade and is up on the year. Thanks for the input guys!
Startup Hedge Funds (Originally Posted: 05/30/2012)
Does anyone know where I can find a list of contacts for new start up hedge funds?
thanks
Finalternatives HFMWeek Absolute Return-Alpha Opalesque
These sites post news about HF launches daily. They usually list the founder(s). From there, you can find the rest of the contacts via linkedin.
If you have a specific fund or a location, PM me and I can look into my database and see if i can help.
lodge hill capital
This site has a directory for recently launched hedge funds. Good luck! http://www.hedgetracker.com/top_2011_hedge_fund_launches.php
Start up Hedge Funds (Originally Posted: 04/30/2013)
Does anyone know of any start up hedge funds that are hiring?
If I knew I would not have told you
But you didn't know, so you did tell him?
Lumina Investments
trade your own account?
PM me if you're still interested.
I know of millions. E-trade.com, they are all wanna be HFs.
if you can raise money I'll hire you.
How to Start A Hedge Fund (Originally Posted: 06/30/2013)
On Jun. 29th, BI picked up an interview with M&I interviewing a Hetty Macintyre, who runs her own HF.
Some takeouts:
I just saw it too, link; http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-start-your-own-hedge-fund-2013-6
That ought to kill a lot of dreams.
Thank god for that. While I was in ugrad there were always those stupid, hopeless kids of rich parents majoring in economics (not an Ivy - we had a Bschool). When they said they were going to start a hedge fund you cringed, but you couldn't tell them not to or their enormous egos would explode.
Hopefully this interview will help some of those poor, lost, spoiled souls get on track (until their inheritance kicks in)
I think it's more nuanced than this. If you "can" get by on a small AUM for several, several years while you hopefully are building a track record, then things are not nearly as bleak as she makes them sound. If your goal is a few million of AUM, increasing gradually each year by a few million each year, it is entirely doable.
I am 15 and I Wish to Start a Hedge Fund (Originally Posted: 07/14/2013)
I know the initial reaction of the vast majority of people reading this post will be laughter. However, I am being completely serious and ask that any person wishing to proclaim their doubts of my seriousness refrain from doing so.
Long story short, I have found a pattern in security price breakouts, and I have not found a single counter-example. I have examined this phenomenon taking place in around 200 random securities, and all of the major indices. When ever there is an occurrence of this phenomenon the underlying security sky rockets in value in the long term.
I have been studying the market(s) since I was about 8, and since then have amassed a vast knowledge of it's workings.
As I said in the title, I am only 15 and I wish to start a hedge fund that utilizes the pattern I found.
Any advice?
-Thanks
..
interactivebrokers and put in your own money? Otherwise I think your chances are limited.
Dude at your age you should be focused on bedding the homecoming queen
I figured starting my own HF would boost my chances.
lol
So a 15 year old guy with access to Google Finance has discovered a 100% reliable profit making system which some of the richest companies in the world with the smartest people in the world have not stumbled across?
Where should I send my money?
Are you a qualified HF investor?
SHUT UP AND TAME MY MONEY!!!
episode of shark tank, amirite?
Cmon dude... Yahoo Finance all the way.
Yahoo Finance all the way.
lulz
actually would do more for your career no jokes
This reads like one of those e-mails from Nigeria
How do you hedge against the price movement of baseball cards?
Arbitrage.
i took the homecoming queen to prom but didn't bed her, do i still get any points for trying?
This is like saying, "I ran a half marathon"... well half-congratulations.
Are these breakouts predominately on the long side? If so, consider the possibility that your success has been a function of a very bullish market. Everything is going higher, simultaneously. Any technical pattern, that is biased long, is making $. This is not alpha.
If you truly believe you have some skill, find a prop trading firm. Don't even think about a HF unless you have wealthy family members who would be interested in losing millions by entrusting their investments to a teenager.
Ways to make money in bull market using TA lolz:
You get the point. Any long, on net, is making $. S&P is up ~20% ytd. Many higher betas in relative strength/momentum industries are killing it.
I back tested my strategy to 2000.
When did Dr. Seuss start writing about the markets? In the unlikely event that you aren't a troll, I would love to hear how lunch/recess went for you in elementary school with you trying to talk to classmates about the markets while they discuss the last episode of Spongebob and the cool videogames they just got for xmas... Please entertain us with some stories from your joyful youth
Troll logic: You can deciper a mathematical pattern literally impossible to comprehend even with the most advanced financial minds in the world, but you can't figure out how to start your own hedge fund? Sorry. No.
I'm not asking how to start one, rather if you have any advice.
From reading his post I believe that ship has sailed long ago.
If I am ambitious and smart enough to figure out a way to make huge money in the market, then I'll be also smart enough not to waste my precious time here on this pointless forum and actually go start my fucking HF. If you're serious with your plan, you should realize that there is no value spending your time on this internet forum.
trade your own account first and make it grow..show phenomenal returns..if you're good, the money will come.
You learn very quickly that there is no such thing as a 'holy grail pattern'. I would suggest you focus on getting into the best possible college instead of deluding yourself.
Dude doesn't sound like 15, more like 9...
Tell me. How much of the tech bubble can you remember? How closely did you follow the Great Rescission? How many finance and economics courses have you taken?
Here's a piece of logic that debunks the entire "I found a pattern" logic.
Correlation =/= Causation
I want you to think about this for a long, long time. Then decide if you still want to start a "hedge fund" based on having found a pattern.
If you think that you're still right, go make a billion dollars, hit Harvard for your honorary PhD, and come back to laugh at us. Until then... well, we'll be making fun of this lol.
very niz
HIS POWER LEVEL IS OVER 9,000!!!
By international standards I think that warrants a bronze medal.
Learn to drive first.
Wouldn't starting a hedge fund get in the way of your tee ball games?
Feeding the troll here...but it's likely your strategy does not scale. Is this phenomenon still going to occur when your mythical HF-run-by-a-15-year-old starts feeding large amounts of capital into a security?
Of course, I would just buy in scales.
i sold myself short; it was the prom queen not the homecoming queen, silver medal?
Best of luck to you, patternfinder...
Data mining bias. Next...
started studying at 8? .... i was watching like mister rogers when i was 8
Probably my favorite quote on this website. Ever.
Dude I am 9 years old and started my own hedge fund around 5 years ago with some leftover allowance. You can join me if you want. I buy in scales all day long
step 1: watch this video www. youtube. com /watch?v =5hfYJ sQAhl 0 step 2: take some time to think about it step 3: stay away from anything remotely related to finance for the rest of your life.
Yeah because Econ & Fin college classes totally help with trading. I heard if you take Finance 101, they have this really cool new module called asset allocation that will teach you how to return 15% annually.
http://www.luminainvestments.com/index.html
I'm sure they wouldn't mind adding a new partner. You'd fit right in.
Or you could always set up lots of different accounts and at least one of them should be 100%+ if you're in volatile companies.
yeah but if you're serious about getting investors, most want some kind of idea of how your strategy works -__-
I would rather be a 15 year-old asking 20-something finance shitheads about starting a hedge fund, than a 20-something finance shithead who gets a chubby picking on teenagers.
On a large sample size your bound to find some correlations. Take 3'000 monkeys and you give them 20 cut out letters and wait for them to shuffle them around. Probability says thats it's highly likely that a least 1 monkey will form a coherent sentence but that doesn't entail that said monkey is literate.
Do you also happen to be a Nigerian Prince?
Maybe this is a silly comment, but if with so many small hedge funds not being able to make ends meet because they are too small in size....why not buy a small advisor (LLC) that exists with a small amount of assets and bring your improvements to the table. That way you are in business day one.
Is there a website out there that lists "hedge funds for sale"?
Gooo on son don't let anyone stop you
Obvious Troll is being obvious.
Start-up Hedge Funds (Originally Posted: 08/12/2013)
How would you guys feel about the opportunity to join a long/short start-up hedge fund (
There's a big difference between a start-up with "
It's a $400m start-up fund started by a guy with a track record at a reputable fund. I'm worried that coming from a non-finance college background with only 2 years of banking experience, maybe I need a more structured environment than dealing just with the PM? Given the choice, would you go for a start-up fund like this or a bigger, established fund?
Unless you've got other funds knocking at your door, then this seems like a great opportunity. You're gonna only learn as much as you put into the position and it's only going to come from being passionate about investing in the first place.
What is the fund's strategy, out of curiosity?
global long/ short value equity
also depends on what your role will be...assuming an analyst.....
yes
Sounds like a great opportunity to me... I'm trying to make the move from banking finance at a BB to the hedge fund space and would jump at it. Good luck.
Starting at a new fund definitely has pros and cons. You'll get a lot of one-on-one time with the PM, which will be great in terms of learning the business. You'll get a lot more exposure to how to run a fund than another analyst would at a more established fund. If this analyst knows what he's doing, and it's clear people believe in him to the tune of $250M, then this could be a great opportunity.
I would suggest thinking long term before you accept an offer. By that, I mean try to get as much in writing as possible. Understand what you're long-term role could become within the fund, how salary and bonus will be structured, exit opps, lock in his support if you want to move to another shop/opportunity for whatever reason, etc. Also understand what his long-term goals are with the fund. Ask the questions a potential investor would so you can feel good about investing yourself in this fund. New funds are more risky for you, so there should be more upside.
If they offer you X salary and bonus, ask for 60% * X salary and bonus, and Y bps in the fund. You're young enough to take such a risk - might as well benefit from the upside.
As long as the guy has a solid track record, I would kill for an opportunity like that. Sounds like a great opportunity to learn a ton and get in on the ground floor.
Thanks a lot guys, Lots of helpful advice here.
So many things to be careful of:
Make sure you clarify that the fund HAS $400m AUM and not "is launching and I have commitments for $400m" or "I think with my track record and connections I can round up $400m".
PMs always underestimate how difficult it is to raise capital, particularly for small funds.
As mentioned above, where that AUM comes from is important too. If they are being seeded by a prominent fund (Citadel has a program like this), they aren't getting 2/20. Might be very very low fees in fact, just enough to get going and keep the lights on.
As to your original question, you learn by absorbing and doing, not through a training program. If you realistically have an opportunity at a large HF, then there's actually a debate here. But don't turn down the smaller fund position because you are concerned you might miss out on another opportunity that may or may not come along.
Great posts by valueisoverrated and grosse. I'll also add that I'm curious as to what this fund's asset base looks like from Day One. If it is launching with $400 million then that's a fantastic start, and given that there are only a handful of funds in the world that do this every year these days, it wouldn't be that hard to guess who it was. If that's the case, then it sounds like a great opportunity.
However, as noted by others there are other things that don't necessarily add up. You mentioned the PM was formerly an analyst a top hedge fund, but has he ever managed money? Even a sleve at his former fund? If not, and if he doesn't have a portable track record, then there aren't many ways this fund gets to $400 million from Day One. Not anywhere even close.
This is a very difficult fundraising environment, and you have a few questions that you need to get answers to first. On one hand, I can see why this is intriguing to get in at the "ground floor" of a fund that sounds like it has promise. On the other hand, some of these statements don't seem to align, so you should get clarification on these matters. There is a huge difference between a sub-$50 million launch and $100 million launch and of course anything above that. At $30 million and below, I think you are taking on some significant career risk and you need to make sure there's some way you can participate in the upside (whether it's asking for bps or whatever). On the other hand, you have no professional investing experience and the hedge fund manager will not feel inclined to give you any piece of the performance since there are enough people (as you can see from other commenters) out there who'd even take this role for free just to get some buy-side experience.
I realize that my post has probably given you more questions than answers, but you need to really cover your bases here. All too often, people think "oh wow, start-up hedge fund, so this is great because I can get investing experience AND get in at the ground level!" Don't forget that the guy who is hiring you is probably really shrewd and has all his bases covered too. So, my whole point is that you need to make sure you understand the "risks" side of the equation and not look only at the "rewards." Most hedge funds under $50 million don't get to scale assets or stick around for more than a couple years, and new PM's underestimate how difficult it is to raise funds or generate alpha when they carve out on their own. Don't make that same mistake.
is it at a japanese bank by any chance in London?
they are setting up a L/S prop desk with $400m with a former guy from Eton Park.
I went there, was invited to come back to discuss my Long / Short view on Air France.
I declined for the following reasons:
1) fit with the PM was not great
2) it s currently a one man shop
3) i dont like the japanese bank. has been firing people a lot
4) i think i need better training
On the other hand, could be an amazing opportunity that you wont find in an established HF...
Starting a hedge fund - Asking for advice (Originally Posted: 01/01/2014)
Why does everybody get mad at people when they want to start a hedge fund and ask for a little advice on here?
brb getting mad
please add more info tho
I think a part of the madness stems from the fact that the people who ask didn't bother doing and due diligence on the in terms of paperwork and expect the info to be handed to them on a platter. I get it either, but I guess after answering it a few times it can get tiring?
Whiz Kid... easiest way to start a Hedge fund? (Originally Posted: 01/09/2014)
Hi, Sorry if my post sounds naive, I'd like to know what people think of my situation. I'd like to know what's the best way for me to enter the hedge fund business. I'm still quite young, 26. I have no experience working on Wall st., or working in general.
I'm a former top online poker pro. I've made probably more than 2million in poker when I was about 18 or 19. I started to trade my poker winnings in 2009 , and luckily at that time the market was bottoming and I caught in around the bottom.
Coming from a CS background, I developed my own quant strategies that , I'd say resembles high frequency strategies, but are more like intermediate-term HFT trading. I've managed to generate a 960% return in the past 5 years, about 60% a year annualized.
2009 - 120% 2010 - 16% 2011 - 68% 2012 - 50% 2013 - 72%
Right now, after taxes and everything , I've turned my initial capital into a trading account of 5MM ... plus some money invested in real estate. I look at the track records of some hedge funds, and I'm aware my track record is in fact very good to almost amazing. I want to know how do I go about attracting institutional interest. I am prepared to invest 5MM in my hedge fund.
With my pedigree, do I have a realistic shot of raising say another, 50-100MM?
Of course I can just keep doing what I"m doing but I think I"m leaving money on the table.
Thanks
Sorry to be skeptical, but if you can pm me any trade confirms/evidence I believe I can find you assets. If this is true, it shouldn't be a problem for you.
That is indeed a spectacular record! I'm curious who you are... given I spend some time on 2p2 and follow poker as a hobby. Any live binks? I'd honestly start with some of the hedge funds who are known to have managers that are enthusiastic about poker. I'm sure they'd love your story, and are more likely to give you a shot than some random quant shop. Try to get 10 minutes with David Einhorn @ Greenlight, or talk to Dan Shak. I think I've heard Citadel, QVT and Susquehanna (sell-side) have big poker playing contingents as well. Not saying it's easy to walk into any of these places, but it's worth a shot.
Eventually you're going to need some formal finance training tho... best crack open the CFA.
If you really have 5mm cash you are pretty set assuming you don't blow it on stuff and bad investments. I'm not sure how you'd reach out to some HFs (maybe some of those weird boiler room-esq prop shops) but why do you even want to? You have been a poker pro and managed your own money for like 5 years. Do you really want an office job and all the stress that comes with it? If I had 5mm in cash no way I'd be gunning for that.
I'd recommend buying small apartment buildings where you can get leverage that also cash flow. That is how you can wealth build while also having a great lifestyle. I realize this isn't really what you asked but like I said I'm not sure you'd enjoy an office setting after being independent for so long.
Also, something to think about is that doing what you did with 2-5mm is not even in the same league as doing it with 25, 50, 100, 1,000mm (granted still super impressive). Your strategy could completely implode once you tried to scale. It is a hell of a lot harder to invest massive sums of money. Something to think about before you try to go down that path.
hahaha pm me
wow boss
Is your strategy scalable? Using almost any strategy on 5MM is very different versus that same technique on large amounts of capital. You should also make sure that your algorithms aren't positioned solely for the ride up. There was a lot of beta to be had post-08, but it seems like you did ok in 2011. Unless, of course, you were up 200% until July and then lost a lot of your returns in the remainder of the year. I'm sure you've done it already, but run multi-decade backtests and see what your returns would look like on different market environments.
If your strat is real, and you want institutional investors, you'll also have to analyze your volatility. Most of these large funds don't have too much of a stomach for vol in the years following 2008. Returns speak volumes, especially over a 5 year period, but if you have an insane amount of vol, it could be tougher to sell to clients.
After you have yourself set up as a proper HF (have PBs, administrators, etc.), you could also try a few FoHFs out there. Sometimes they'll seed you, (they most likely won't), but they may also know institutional investors (clients of theirs, that they want to please) who may be looking for a small quant shop and could pass your name along.
Interested in learning more about your story!
You could crowd fund it from http://www.kickstarter.com/ or http://www.indiegogo.com/ and give people a guide for playing better poker. I think that's pretty creative, although some unforeseen technical detail could be an issue.
Regarding your strategy, you say that it resembles HFT, but what does that mean? Do you have HFT infrastructure?
Thanks for the comments.
I trade three uncorrelated strategies I've developed over the years. The most profitable one of them is not super scalable, because it has shorter holding time. The other 2 are to a degree. Is that a big issue? It will have diminishing returns as AUM increases but isn't this expected? I wrote computer algos to calculate what / when / how much to buy, and how to execute. It has no HFT structure because it doesn't need to compete on speed. Also, after 2009 , I made a personal decision to make all trading market neutral. So the returns have a beta of maybe 0.1 to the stock market.
I've already given up on poker, since it is much harder to make money there. The games are much harder now than before, and there isn't much dead money as before. Plus the government shut it down in 2011.
I do have real estate investments, mostly cheap single family houses. The returns on these are not high enough for me to buy more. I considered the commercial thing, but I still think its better to leave money in my trading account.
Can you guys give me an idea how easy/hard it is to raise money with a hedge fund marketer type who charge a % on the money they bring in? Has anyone had experience working with them? Realistically, I would like to appeal to larger investors/institutions. I've visited a few of those self fund websites, and most can only draw a few hundred K here and there. I don't want to manage my own money plus ten others investing 500k.
Big respect, bro! I have some friends with a similar problem, they're working with liquidity-based strats. Last thing I heard was that they're talking to some swiss-based managers to bring in funds. I don't know how that's going yet, but if you're interested I can get an update, I'm seeing them regularly for related stuff anyway. I'd be interested in a technical aspect: what systems are you using to implement your strats? Sth like Metatrader C++ API?
Start-up Quant Hedge Fund looking for advice and feedback (Originally Posted: 01/12/2014)
New here on WSO so I'll keep this short and sweet. I'm currently a senior in undergrad and over the past few months have been working on starting a quantitative hedge fund with several of my peers. We have a trading algorithm that returns in the 10-12% a year range with little to no correlation to the markets. The algorithm is very good, safe to say we are all confident it's the real deal. That being said we are still in the very early stages and haven't raised a dollar yet.
If anyone on here that has ever started a HF or currently works at one and would be willing to help provide some advice and feedback please reach out. Would appreciate even the smallest bit of advice.
Currently located in Boston if anyone wants to grab a beer always looking to expand the network. Thanks everyone and glad to be a part of WSO.
And google says what?
http://icg.Citi.com/transactionservices/home/demo/tutorials29/HedgeFundStartUpGuide_Jan2012/#/6/
TT
What do you guys trade? If it is exclusively focused on global futures, futures options and/or spot FX, you might want to approach it by starting a CTA and using managed accounts - the economics of it works out a lot better with no minimum capital barrier, particularly when starting out, but requires more mundane operational efforts. Of course such a set-up works best for macro type funds (both quant and discretionary), many of which were started under such a structure and still maintain it.
Out of curiosity, what type of strategy are you employing?
It is a VERY VERY tough environment at the moment to start anything. Best of luck to you!
Best advice I can give you is to have, or partner with somebody who has, a prodigiously rich father. Alternatively, just take this model to millenium, rentech, etc, and get jobs that don't require you to build a new business from scratch. There's almost no point in even trying to start your own firm at this stage of the game... partially due to your age, but mostly due to the fact that the market has evolved away from allowing hedge fund start ups, no matter how good, to raise meaningful capital.
Above advice is probably the most realistic thing to do, and given your age working at another shop is good advice anyway, but capital raising is not completely impossible. It's just improbable from your starting point.
Allocators want to see a track record. You're too young to have a resume to speak for you, so you need to show that you can make money by making money. Especially for a quant strategy, you need to show that your approach actually works in live markets, not just backtesting. And has an acceptable risk profile, scales well, etc. If you're determined to go the start up route, get registered, manage friends and family and your own money in managed accounts, and see if you can actually put up a couple years of good performance. Unfortunately that's just table stakes before you start to have serious conversations about capital raising, but at that point you'd at least be able to get your foot in the door with family offices and HNW individuals. Where the capital raising environment has gotten closer to impossible for small managers is with endowments and the like. But for smaller investors you'd have a shot, and after a few years you'd have some decent brokerage relationships that could help with cap intro.
Good luck!
Hi. A HF quant with three years of experience to offer some advice. I've seen a lot of automated strategies so I can roughly validate the success of your model. Perhaps that will be of help should you wish to bring up your model to investors.
You mentioned you are a senior in undergrad. So I'm assuming you have not seen enough of quant investing to know whether a model actually works. I'm assuming your results are backtested. Seeing 10% to 12% returns in a year in Matlab doesn't mean anything unless you substantiate the results accordingly.
If you want my opinion, answer these questions first.
I don't mean to boast my knowledge on this field. I've worked long enough to know when one claims to have a profitable strategy and when one actually has a profitable strategy. If you want to be taken serious in the quant investing HF business, you at least need to know answers to the above five questions.
Start-up hedge fund (Originally Posted: 05/05/2014)
I'm thinking of joining a hf of about 100 mil but as a partner. I'll forgo any salary to get the % of aum. However, what do you guys think given I probably won't be bringing in any clients for the next year or so as I adjust myself into hf. They want me on as a hedge investment guy, but surely I could do that and still be a partner and be cheaper, in the beginning, as a partner than as a salaried guy?
Any advice would be appreciated. HF is not my area. I'm coming from a BB and haven't seen outside the echo-chamber yet.
What type of HF is it?
Sorry for not mentioning it, it's part family office, part long-short macro
Tough call. What is your position at your BB if you don't mind me asking?
fixed income researcher, so not sales, not a trader, just an ideas guy
Super risky, your value-add from the start will be close to zero unless you have a solid client list at your bank which you know would join you at the HF and can generate solid ideas for the traders.
Could be a good opportunity, assuming you generated good investment ideas in your previous job. I would structure a compensation structure where you would not receive the greater of X or Y% of AUM (in case AUM drop). Can they kick you out of the partnership if things don't work out?
Sorry, I rejected it. They moved the goal posts of the obj. for the fund.
Start-Up / new Hedge Funds (Originally Posted: 11/28/2014)
Does anyone know where one can see currently founded start-up hedge funds? Does Preqin track this?
Thanks
Here you can find info about lists of the top Emerging Hedge Fund Managers - I hope this is helpful:
http://www.hedgetracker.com/article/The-rise-of-Corvex-Management-Corve…
This is already very helpful, thank you.
Does anyone have access to the paid content of HedgeTracker? If so, please PM.
Does one need a college degree to start a Hedge Fund or become a Portfolio Manager ? (Originally Posted: 09/18/2015)
Does one need a college degree to start a hedge fund or become a Portfolio Manager, Given he is a successful Trader / Investor and have consistently above average good returns.
What are your returns and for how long?
If they are solid and you have proof of it just go and contact as many SMALL BUT WELL-CONNECTED (AUM doesn't really matter, but you want you want is almost no employees (5 maximum) portfolio managers in YOUR NICHE ONLY (deep value/long short/quant/global macro/etc) thru whatever means possible for an internship and/or full time job. If they refuse ask for unpaid work (go to college) and tilt the incentives. Most of them will happily give you a job after some nagging or at least refer you to their colleagues. Accept the offer if you like the PM and he likes you back (emphasis on likability and fit here, not just salary).
If they are extraordinary and you have personal contacts you may skip college however you won't have anything to fall back on if fund fails later (and they do quite often).
Yes, small funds are a dime a dozen, but as long as they have been existing for a long time and run by reputable and well-connected portfolio managers you should be safe from HF collapsing. Stay in the firm for 2-3 years and befriend the PM (wont be hard if fund is small). After those 2-3 years ask him for help into launching your own fund (if you did befriend the PM he is going to help) and funding or alternatively just stay in firm if it has grown substantially over the years (since you'll be in line for a fat promotion).
If you check the bios of many HF managers, this is by far the most common path. Except that there is no OCR, no formal process and no one gives (too much) of a shit for prestige as long as you've got returns and passion.
Note that most of what is written here doesn't apply for mega-funds who operate much more like ibanking firms. And College never hurts especially given how easy it is.
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