"Five years from now..." is a pretty good benchmark for the half-life of most business or career-related arcs (okay, maybe 5-10 years, depending on the career or industry).
As an undergrad or fresh grad, of course your undergrad matters - to you, to your peers, to recruiters, to your parents (if you have helicopter parents that is). Beyond 5 years, it doesn't.
As a b-school student and recent grad, your MBA matters for a while, but peters out within 5 years or so.
When you're in your mid- to late-30s (which to most undergrads may seem "old" but is not) - it's again what you've achieved in the last 5 years that factors into most decision-making (whether to hire you, invest in your company, etc) and far less if any what you did in your 20s.
In your 40s, no one cares what you did in your 20s or a decade before in your 30s for most cases. And so forth.
That's why the "what have you done for me lately" world is a double-edged sword: you can't rest on your laurels from long ago, but any failures are also long forgotten as well.
If there's one piece of advice I *know* from experience (and those I know) that I could give to undergrads and those who are early in their career, it's this:
Be prepared to reinvent yourself. At least a few times in your lifetime. From my own experience and those of my peers (now in their 40s and 50s), especially how the economy has sped up considerably (even more than 10-20 years ago), be prepared to start over faster than you think.
Treat every career like it's an NFL career: short-lived. You will get replaced by younger and cheaper players (and if you join the coaching staff, be prepared to be fired multiple times). And count on this happening every 5-10 (maybe 15?) years or so. Where you have to start over.
Sometimes there's no choice - it's 2008/09, you get fired from a finance job that won't return, so you start a new career.
Sometimes it's a huge change in your personal circumstances - marriage, divorce, kids, death in the family, unexpected healthcare issues with you or your loved ones.
Other times it's existential - you hate your career/life, you need a complete change, or you have some sort of wake up call, scare, or you discover a calling.
The prestige on your resume isn't going to protect you from this, nor is it going to help as much as you think - ESPECIALLY once you're in your late 30s and beyond when the world sees your 20s as "childhood" and heavily discounted.
And ask anyone who has had to do a complete 180 in their career/life - it's not easy. There's a hangover period, a transition period of sorts where you will be scared. But just know that it's an unavoidable fact of life.
Stop focusing on prestige, safety and guarantees - because it's not going to pan out. I'm not being pessimistic. It's a fact of life and the odds are stacked against it working out the way you have envisioned it in your mind. Maybe this job you've envisioned is cushy and takes you beyond b-school for the 2 years. But then what? You think you're all set up for the rest of your life? Here's what WILL happen: you will have to pivot, and pivot hard, at least a few times in your life - maybe it's by force, or by choice, but it WILL happen where you essentially have to start over. And no matter how hard you try to play God in your own life, it's unavoidable: sometimes you see your career ending like a terminal disease, other times it's sudden death.
So instead, build the skills for how to reinvent yourself. Being able to start over, reinvent yourself is going to be most important. And that comes down to one thing:
Curiosity - not many people are as curious as you think. Especially business types at a young age: obsessed with money, prestige, power and playing God in their fantasies. These folks have focused only on learning what they deem will be useful. Being truly curious means learning for the sake of learning - yes you have to balance between being a dilettante and being obsessive, but it's more a state of mind: to constantly challenge and learn about new people, experiences, etc. Learn a new instrument. A new language. Or take a cooking class, dance class, etc. And the more you can get into that habit now, the better, because as you get older and settle in, it's harder to do that. This state of mind and being willing to "be the beginner" is an important muscle that becomes crucial when you have to "be a beginner" when the stakes are higher: when you have to start over. You will find as you graduate and get into the workforce, a lot of people want to be the expert (or pretend to be), but are terrified of being a beginner, or being seen as a beginner.
When you are afraid of being a beginner, you are afraid of learning new things. When you are afraid of being a beginner, you are afraid of the small failings along the way, which only makes any large potential failing that much more terrifying.
Mod Note (Andy): Best of 2016, this post ranks #18 for the past year
+1 SB for a great post.
Do you happen to give TED talks? The "don't be afraid of being a beginner" is straight from one I attended.
Haha no TED talks, but I wouldn't be surprised if some version of this was mentioned at TED, since I don't think it's a particularly new idea. It's just something we all need to constantly remind ourselves with some version of:
And so forth. I guess it's also reinventing an old idea to make us really listen for the first time when it's said in a different way.
I can personally attest to at least 4 of these. great post!
great post
Awesome. SB'd
I agree with the basic message of your post in regards to reinventing yourself throughout your career/life, but I do not agree with the premise that your undergrad and MBA matter less as time passes. They continue to matter a great deal, although the relationship between your past education and your current status in life grows increasingly indirect as time passes. Why were you able to get into that prestigious university for your MBA? Primarily because of the undergraduate institution you attended and the job it afforded you after you graduated. Similarly, the job you obtain after receiving your MBA from [insert prestigious university here] is generally a direct result of having attended said school. The same relationship then applies to future positions.
Others that attend schools that are considered "less prestigious" simply won't have the same opportunities that someone graduating from Stanford or Harvard will have. Could two MBA graduates, one from your run-of-the-mill state school and the other from Stanford GSB, eventually end up in the same place as time passes? Sure. But I can guarantee you that it's going to be a hell of a lot harder for the former to do so.
So, yes, school prestige, for better or for worse, matters a great deal. If nothing else, it gives you optionality in life that others simply will not have.
Despite all the shits you are being thrown, this is probably true even if people don't want to hear it
.......................
This article solved my problem of being in a dilemma. A dilemma is created only when people start worry about the safest and tactical way to accomplish our lifelong goals. But in the process, many people do not enjoy totally. There should not be different attutide towards any stage of life. Clock is ticking, and if there is something we wanna achieve in the future, which is not possible yet right now, don't settle and cherish what we have now, cause somehow those dots can be connected in the future. Beliefs are most important, not the ability of maximizing the uitility of a single decision.
............
You don't get it, do you? Just because someone went to a state school doesn't mean that they're not as intelligent as someone that went to Harvard. I know this girl who went to ECU(East Carolina), and is the best programmer at her workplace. She's now been working as developer at Citadel, and she didn't even need a financial engineering degree from one of those "prestigious" schools for that. She relied on her experience, intelligence, and her degree from the STATE school. Like I've said before, you degree brand matters for the first few years, then its all you.
...................
You really seem to struggle with forming coherent, structured arguments.
School prestige absolutely matters. It is just a fact. I think it is borderline irresponsible to say otherwise. Not to knock Kelley but Harvard>>>>Kelley. The average outcome of students at Harvard blows away that of those at Kelley. It is important to, for the most part, ignore successful outliers.
Would you advise some highschool students that dropping out is okay because there are a couple of multi-millionaires out there who did so?
No. All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter where you go to school. If you got accepted into Harvard, more power to you. If you couldn't get in, and got into Rice or Kelley instead, it's not the end of the world, you should be just as excited, and happy about it.
You probably should watch Mr Nobody. I love this quote : "Every path is the right path. Everything could've been anything else. And it would have just as much meaning."
............
+1 for the quote. This is the most heated debate I've read here in awhile.
This thread is hilarious
Why is hilarious?
It is truly laughable.
The students who are accepted to Harvard and attend would arguably be just as successful as if they went to any other decent school. That is to say, predicting student success depends on a whole host of variables (GPA/SAT/ACT, Parent Education, Etc.), and a source of unknown variables (charisma? good looks?), all of which are largely formed prior to one attending university.
All else being equal and on average, of course it would be better for the same student to attend Harvard. On another note, I really derive pleasure from seeing all of the butt-hurt posters. Keep it up!
Very interesting post, thank you for the tips!
Lol this thread is why WSO is such a shit show. Guy writes a puff piece for inspiration and it turns into an unhinged, erratic and angry diatribe about outliers from mediocre schools who prove it to all those stupid privileged people holding us down.
You guys are crazy.. I didn't say the OP was wrong. I was just merely explaining why prestige doesn't matter anymore. Y'all are victims of cognitive dissonance, because it really DOESN'T matter anymore.
That's what I like about the MSF programs. It doesn't matter if they don't have a "brand name", all matters is their ability to connect you with important people in the industry.
Also, blanket, delusional statements like "prestige doesn't matter anymore" are why people are disagreeing with you. But apparently we're all crazy, so just ignore us.
Going to an elite school doesn't make success a certainty. It can be very helpful. School name certainly matters but at the end of the day it doesn't mean a thing if its all you have.
The vast majority of potential employers want kids with good educations, good experience, and a good level of talent. School prestige isn't as important to most employers as it is for those in "elite" society. If your goal is to work on wallstreet then school prestige is going to be far more important. If you want a good job paying good money at a major corporation school prestige isn't as important.
Regardless of where you goto school if you seek out opportunities and make the most of them you'll most likely be successful. Developing talent, gaining experience, being intellectually curious, and having desire are the biggest determinants of success imo.
People who are going to be successful are going to be successful regardless of the school they attend. Going to a particular school doesn't make you smart. Not going to a particular school doesn't make you dumb. Its far more complex than that. Are the absolute brightest at Harvard smarter than the average state school student...yes. They're also smarter than the average Harvard student. Variation exists everywhere.
State school guy now at HBS here. ChloeJ90 you are wrong. Prestige matters. Yes there are legacies here and across the river but they are the minority. Feel free to swing by campus some time and I can introduce you to people from both sides.
I don't trust chimps you know ;)
This thread is prosposterous. The bottom line is this. Most of the people who go to ANY "presitige" school are typipically of the same ilk, and are generally extremely intellectually competent. That doesn't mean someone from Pace or Rutgers isn't just as capable it means they merely started from a different station. In my extensive Wall Street experience I would say presitige gets you in the door because of networks and hiring managers assume you are bright - they don't have to guess. A lower echelon school hire will have to prove themselves tenfold (which usually leads to the "Harvard guys are lazy" dialogue). Within 6 months all things are equal internally and only hard work and intellect move you up the food chain. That said, without a doubt, presitige gets you an invite to the party, the same party that you are forced to hustle your way into if you come from an ancillary school - unless you have a connection at that firm. I have hired scores of not hundreds of people and I can now say I would take ANYONE who finished top of class from a top state school (NC, Berkeley, Texas, Wisconsin, et al) undergrad and ANYONE who finished from a top 10 MBA first for a wide array of different reasons predominately work ethic and intellect. Anyone who doesn't believe or understand this has never hired or managed anyone. That said once you are in a firm, regardless of what your background is, or where you came from - it is all up to you.
As a recent grad I can say I really appreciated reading this. Already bookmarked.
There are quite a few Baruch/CUNY alums at JPM and GS. The majority have high grade and a work ethic and/or story that can probably beat out a majority of kids at top tier schools. I have a friend at Baruch and tuition is like 7k for NYC residents but the majority get financial aid so they end paying a whole lot less. Plus many of them are from the city so they also save on room and board. She told me that JPM and GS hold OCR sessions all the time. She even got a 4 year rational internship program and scholarship from JPM in high school. She has met many Baruch/CUNY alums at JPM. Goes to show that sometimes where you go to school doesn't matter.
...............
If you are a NYC resident and money is an issue, you can't go wrong with Baruch. It is definitely great for rotational programs.
I wouldn't take person who asks for your "fun pics" seriously. There's nothing good about you, I can't believe Kellogg accepted you unless that's a lie too. You should be ashamed of yourself.
There have been like 2 actually good posts in this thread. Going to a "prestige school" gets you interviews that are much harder (and sometimes impossible) to get at other schools. That's an indisputable fact. That doesn't mean that the HBS guy is necessarily more capable than the CUNY guy, but the same person at either place is much more likely to have opportunities and doors open for him with HBS on his resume than he is with CUNY on his resume. If you've ever been in a hiring position in Finance, you know this is true.
Great post!
Great post! Really appreciate it, and definitely not what I thought it was going to be. Definitely helps to do a check on yourself every once in a while and put things in perspective. Cheers.
I define success as not feeling the need to participate on either side of these threads by the time you're 5 years out of school.
It's no, All i am saying is that going to a regarded School doesn't mean that they are astute compared to someone who attends a Reputed school. Only reason to attend school is to gain knowledge.
The biggest risk is doing everything right but one day the music stops and you dont have a chair. Good friend of mine did it all; Valedictorian, Ivy, Wall Street, MBA, iBanking, nipping at MD - then his bank closed that division. Then the rest of wall street cut back on those jobs. Then unemployment, then a crappier support job in banking, then faced with a move to Asia or unemployment again.
Doing everything right prepares you for everything going right. It doesn't prepare you for all the sucker punches of life.
Reinvention is like a startup. You either work on it at nights and weekends or you bootstrap through with low overhead. Like entrepreneurship, it takes either guts or desperation to get out of comfort. I've seen guys more talented than me stuck in declining wages because they couldn't cut their personal overhead or were afraid of what their wife's reaction would be.
I feel like people always miss the other side of everything. Most things that occur to us are due to our own fault and are egging us on to grow. Welcoming struggle can be the fastest way to grow and then prosper in the long-run.
I'd say if you ever went through buyside recruiting, school is 33% of the equation... Best of luck to us state school kids lol
but srs nice post agreed with most of it. Too bad finance is all competitive/presitge whoring
Thanks for the post. Gives encouragement to people who enjoy new challenges for the sake of testing themselves and wanting to avoid the Silo Effect.
Great post
great post!
I like how some people believe that HYPS grads are so far superior to their state college counterparts. I've fired multiple people from top schools who weren't worth a shit.
Thank you, you have just confirmed what most people know, it is not about where you went, it is about the attitude one takes in dealing with multiple situations. Plenty of schools jack up their tuition prices and try to justify them with the elite marquee etc.
Very sagacious words and very true, I had to reinvent myself multiple times from being a scientist, Engineer, Technologist and now trying to get into finance as a financial adviser. Things are going to change the only road kill that I often observe in my travels are the ones who hate and refuse to change. Either, it is people who refuse to change from using paper to computer based systems, to ones who refuse to follow/work on changes the company rolls out because they think it is a waste of time etc.
"When you are afraid of being a beginner, you are afraid of learning new things. When you are afraid of being a beginner, you are afraid of the small failings along the way, which only makes any large potential failing that much more terrifying." Incredibly wise words, OP.
there's an inverse relation between the importance of school prestige and who you know. Of course, the more of both, the better.
prestige isn't the most important thing but its nice to have on the resume thats for sure.
Great piece of advice OP! However, coming from a prestigious school will always give you an advantage over those who do not.
Does prestige matter more for undergrad or MBA? (Originally Posted: 08/20/2011)
Hi,
I hope one day to apply to HBS for an MBA. Not from an employment perspective, but purely in terms of "prestige", is it better to go to Harvard College or Ross/Stern/Haas undergrad + Harvard MBA?
Basically, which one of those possibilities brings the most wow factor?
Thanks
Harvard College + Harvard MBA Seriously though, very different kinds of people - Harvard college, much smarter HBS often all flash and no substance, but generally have a reputation for being very driven and ambitious if not always too bright or pleasant to deal with
prestige? of course Harvard College + Harvard MBA. Some might venture to say that Harvard College alone has higher prestige vs. Stern/Ross/Haas + Harvard MBA.
But what's the exchange rate for prestige to $? It's not as much as some people think. Confounding variable problem.
Harvard College / HBS doesn't equal a ticket to success...... sorry
^ I share the same sentiment. The idea that Ivy students are THE BEST is simply false. Yeah they were the best in regurgitating useless bs in simple exams throughout high school, but that doesn't equate to being brilliant, driven, or ambitious.
I currently attend a top undergrad business program and I know that many of my peers are going to get prestigious jobs in ibanking or consulting but a Stern/Ross/Haas degree does not have the same wow factor for the general public as HYP.
Like everyone, I care about success in the business world, and graduating from any institution does not guarantee anything, even though it's a lot easier coming form a target school. This question is only about the wow factor in the business world and in the general public.
I am a little bit surprised by some of the answers because I always thought that graduating from a good grad school was more important than undergrad but I really appreciate the comments.
How much the general public is wow'd is important. . . .
EDIT: added ellipsis to make sarcasm a bit more evident
the average person(99%) doesn't give a fuck what school you went to and can tell who is smart and who isn't just by having a conversation
now, on a side note
I seen some users who claimed they went Ives post some trade ideas and opinions over the economy and seen there ideas get ripped to shreds 3 weeks down the rode :/
they do know how to use correct grammar though, I was quiet impressed
I guarantee you going to Harvard didn't make or break Bill Gates.
It's the whole chicken or the egg deal. The kids who go to top schools already have a proven track record. That means the odds of picking the future leaders/successful business leaders is increased by a lot.
If all the kids go to the local state university to party and Harvard is picking the best and brightest in the country than I wonder who will, on average, be more successful....
If you read the biographies of the great minds of the world, it mattered far more who they were working with rather than what credentials they had etc. It's all about performance, and the kids who go to top schools already perform well, so they will probably continue that trend. Harvard produces its fair share of screw ups. Nothing in life is perfect.
Now that's not saying you can go wherever you want, but going to aa top school matters far less than most people think, especially if you want to do something that isn't pedigreed (start a business etc.).
Just scroll down the list of Forbes billionaires... they went everywhere you can imagine.
Refer to this thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/undergrad-average-salary-is-more-…
How about Harvard undergrad, Booth grad school.
Need to get some freshwater credentials. Besides, Harvard may take in the best of the best, but Booth produces the best of the best. Once you graduate, much better to be from the same school as the current best-of-the-best than a bunch of 30-somethings who started a charity in Zimbabwe at age 22 and haven't done much since.
Good undergrad, good graduate school is how we usually approach it - most candidates we end up with go to a combination of top 10 undergrad degrees, top 6 b-school. When we recruit at b-school we end up preferring candidates with stronger undergrad background, but once the actual interview process starts it's all about the candidate rather than their undergrad. Strong undergrad gives you a leg up, but strong candidates almost always do well regardless of their undergrad.
Some PE shops only want HYP + HBS - that's a dumb approach in my view - but it does clearly gets the candidates who have been very focused on success and I see no reason to penalize those folks
It's the whole correlation vs. causation issue. It's not that any top 10/ top 5 school makes great thinkers.... it's that they get to select them from a huge group of applicants and cherry pick the best of the best. However, there is a huge difference between success in school and success in the business world / "life". There isn't any textbook on how to start your own business, only your own intuition.
These threads are stupid.
It's good to know what people are thinking (I am from a different country, where only Harvard, Yale, Berkeley and MIT are well-known)
Anyway, I am really happy at my top undergrad business program and I know that considering my personality/intellect, it was the best choice (I was also accepted at Dartmouth, Cornell and UChicago, didn't apply to HYP).
I am already the type of person who loves to read Descartes or Nietzsche. I am absolutely not a project-driven person, not just because I am lazy but because of my childhood and philosophical ideas. I hope that b-school is going to make me believe in the possiblity to have an impact/create change/act etc. instead of always thinking.
BB Ibanking to b-school: Prestige matters? (Originally Posted: 02/13/2007)
Does it matter when applying to the top 5 b-schools whether you're coming from, say, CS or MS (IBD)? Assume GMAT = 740 and a top-two ivy undergrad education.
I guess...but the main person I know who's an ibanker and currently getting his MBA @ Stanford went to a state school for pre-med before switching majors. But GMAT will defnitely matter. But I think anything above a 700 is sufficient, I think?
Does school prestige matter as much at boutique banks (Originally Posted: 03/20/2011)
I have a relative that lived in NYC, and from what i've heard it was alright but nothing amazing. I see everyone on here wanting to get into the BB banks in NYC, which of course looks at Ivies/NYU/etc. for internships.
The question is, what if my goal is a boutique bank/ regional office job in Chicago/Minneapolis/ Texas? I realize i should be going to the best school possible but do the smaller banks look at the same stuff as larger banks? Like would a upper 3 GPA from a non target undergrad in Finance be alright?
I realize i would have to network more, but do these banks even have recruiting visits to schools if they're not BB?
Generally those banks are easier to get into; they usually recruit top students from schools in their region.
alright thats what i was thinking. i would love to work in ibanking but don't really like NYC, would prefer to stay in the midwest, but would love to work in the pacific northwest
And would they more likely to recruit at top public or private schools? or just a mix of both?
If you are coming from a non-target and aiming for a regional shop, you will have a shot, but your best bet will come from networking, keeping a high GPA and having relevant coursework and a relevant major so that these boutique shops, which often don't have formal training programs, will know that you are able to hit the ground running. Here's more help for breaking in from a non-target.
PM me if you have other questions.
Also keep in mind, the greatest value for where you currently are in life is optionality. So if you wake up tomorrow and decide you no longer want to work at a boutique, will you still have the optionality of reasonably pursuing BB opportunities? If you decide you don't want to work in banking at all, what other types of jobs are you well positioned for? etc...
You will definitely have an opportunity to do so but you will have to be aggressive in your recruiting efforts (cold calling weekly). It’s going to depend a great deal on what boutique you are interested in. I was in a similar situation graduating from a non-target and looking for a boutique in Chicago. It will still be difficult to get into a more “elite” boutique such as Greenhill, Lazard, Evercore etc. but easier with other shops such as William Blair, or Robert Baird.
I think you should look into Kelly. That appears to fit your credentials the best. Kelly is a top 25 school and gets some of the big banks there and has a good relationship with JP Morgan. They also have a supposed "elite IB club." Sorry to say, I don't think Northwestern is very realistic for someone with a 27 act and 3.6 GPA. Don't know about texas, but out of any of the other if you get a high gpa you can land an MM or well now boutique.
Why is prestige of your college so important to IB recruiters? (Originally Posted: 05/27/2013)
Given the degree of randomness in college admissions, why do IB recruiters place so much emphasis on the name of your undergraduate institution?
The difference between attending Harvard and a state school like Michigan could come down to whether or not one particular undergrad admissions officer liked you and advocated for you.
Students who are fortunate enough to attend major targets like Harvard have the luxury in majoring in whatever they want to, while students who end up at semi-targets like Michigan have to put their intellectual interests aside and bust their asses off in a preprofessional school like Ross just to get the same opportunities. As I stated earlier, undergraduate admissions are incredibly random.
So why is success in IB recruiting so heavily predicated on the name of one's undergraduate institution?
Well, IMO admissions isn't as random as you're making it out to be. The very top students more often than not end up in the top target schools, and any stories otherwise are usually anecdotal and not the norm.
IB is basically a prestige machine, and since they get so many applicants it's easier for them to just limit their choices to "top x" schools.
Dean Fitzsimmons of Harvard once said that he could fill one class of Harvard students several times over with no measurable difference in quality. What I don't understand is why, then, top BBs place so much emphasis on your college's name.
that's just PC BS.
if that was possible, but they still managed to pick a limited number, there must be a way of distinguishing the good from the best.
The other several times over goes to YPS, the rest of the ivies, etc. not to random non-targets
I think it largely depends on the fact that recruiters see it as some sort of guarantee of quality. The recruiter knows that the candidate from a target has been subject to top quality education and been fostered in an environment that on average is a bit more professional than at a non-target university. They are basically playing it safe.
Your comment about randomness in college admission is probably quite accurate and the whole system with extra-curriculum, sport skills, racial quotas etc as means to get accepted to US universities is quite baffling for some Europeans. Where I come from it's simple your GPA and SAT that matters, which to a pretty large extent (but not entirely) removes any arbitrariness in the admission process.
You don't honestly believe that do you? Financial needs/personal preferences aside, do you really think someone who was competitive with the average Harvard student would, because of college admissions randomness, end up with nothing better than Michigan? The probability of a student that smart getting rejected by every single target school is pretty slim.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The schools these days don't even focus on grades/sats since so many people have 4.0s/2400s, they care about the essays and why you want to attend each college. it's not like you just apply to every one of the ivies, with the expectation of your stats getting you in, because "fit" matters most. The applications have to be perfect, very unique, individualized, thought provoking and even if they are, if you're asian, well tough luck.
I never bought that college admissions was random. All the amazing kids I know got admitted to almost every ivy and the kids that were pretty good got admitted to all the middle ivies and maybe scraped one HYP, etc. Even if it is true that there is some randomness in the process (and I agree there probably is some), it's not like you apply to Harvard and if you don't get in you end up at community college. There are eight ivies and a lot of other amazing schools like Standard, MIT, and Duke where you can go. Does that mean there aren't smart kids at state schools, obviously not. But, as a previous poster said, banks like ivies just because its a kind of "guarantee" that all the kids will be quality.
Also, with regard to Michigan, because you referenced it as a school that doesn't get recruited as heavily as Harvard, I can tell you that now that the banks are listing all the applicants they accepted into the investment banking, my friends and I who are going to a lot of the "good banks" are really blown away with just how well schools that some people don't mention in the same breaths as Harvard and Wharton are doing. I think Notre Dame, Michigan, NYU, and Georgetown (schools with UG business schools) almost certainly place every bit as well as some of the more mid-level ivies. Of course, there are probably more kids gunning for spots in banking at those places as well, but I still was really impressed.
One point that might not have been mentioned is that employees at banks are biased and so the alums of certain schools will consistently pick/recommend students from their alma mater. It's self perpetuating, to some extent.
I definitely admit that in general/more times than not a randomly picked Ivy student will be better than a randomly picked other student, but to say it is anywhere near a "guarantee" is ridiculous. Not saying this out of jealousy, but seriously, the amount of crap that gets mixed in at Ivies is crazy. And even among the Ivy students who aren't what I consider crap, there are still students who just plain can't do finance despite their amazing academic abilities and work ethic.
I am assuming that the posters above were just trying to explain how banks/firms justify their decisions and cutting of corners (in a sense, since they aren't doing the best looking over of each candidate), but it is important to realize how inaccurate of a generalization it is to say that target means a "guarantee."
I have spent a lot of time in both target/non-target environments, so I am just saying how amazing the variety is at an Ivy. You get a number of brilliant people, but then you get plenty of duds who are being given similar opportunities as those who are significantly more deserving from that Ivy.
For such incredibly smart people at the Ivy Leagues there are an amazing number of socialists and communists or far leftist students at these schools who reject capitalism. I've always been astonished how such intelligent people could reject human psychology 101, mathematics 101, and history 101, all which lead to the conclusion that capitalism and free markets are successful and that centralized planning is largely a failure.
My brother is one of those hyper intelligent people who is incredible at math and can do literally anything he sets his mind to, and yet he thinks finance, capitalism and the free market are wicked concoctions of man and should be and can be replaced with utopian thoughts and systems. Unbelievable that these hyper intelligent people don't understand basic human psychology or the basic and simple rules of supply and demand. I'll never understand how someone can crush the SAT and yet not understand, for example, how government imposed price controls cause supply shortages or how raising taxes can create labor disincentives or how a complicated and expensive tax code can create an environment of mass tax avoidance or how liberally issuing college debt can cause the cost of college to rise at a clip 4 times that of inflation. Painfully obvious and basic concepts some of the smartest people I know reject. Mind numbing.
there is little randomness in college admissions given a student applies intelligently. Meaning the guy who didn't get into hypsw but is SOLID will get into another strong but not top-5 target school. Sure random people might get into H but get denied by ypsw but the guy who got into H and not ypsw also got into (say) georgetown. Get it?
Now if some idiot (who was book smart) applied to only H and Umich then he fucked himself frankly.
Importance of Prestige of Business School (Originally Posted: 10/30/2011)
Hello all,
I am an undergraduate at the Kelley School of Business, and am considering transferring. I know Kelley is a good business program, but it does not carry the same prestige as many other business programs on Wall Street.
How much does where you go matter after you get your first job? I will be graduating amongst the top in my class here so I think I can land a solid job on Wall Street (again, i THINK). Would I be better off graduating near the top at Kelley, or be merely average at Stern (IF I am accepted as a transfer).
Ten years down the road, is it going to matter how prestigious my business school was?
do the investment banking workshop at Kelley and youll be fine
kelley undergrad is a decent b-school. It may be tough to land a top BB group coming out of there, but you can get a decent BB gig in Chicago or something else and then leverage that into getting into a top MBA program, which is what's really important.
it'll matter quite a bit for quite a while. not only do banks care for on-campus recruiting, but PE and HFs and their headhunters definitely care significantly about the school you went to. so even if you land a great banking job out of college, you might find it harder to get a PE job.
of course, it's still possible and you can definitely get to the best jobs with kelley, but just know it will hurt for a long time. in addition a 4.0 from kelley might look better (for both banking and buy side) than a 3.5 from NYU stern, but i can't comment from the specifics of that at all.
Purely for investment banking purposes, there are only a few other state schools that would give you a better chance than IU (Michigan, UVA, but the difference is minimal esp. if you're in-state for IU)
If you transfer, the only schools you should consider should be the ones with a significantly better academic reputation and at least a decent party scene, which pretty much only leaves places like Wharton, Duke, or Gtown
It matters until the end of your life. First, your sexual life will suffer - you won't be able to pick up chicks by whispering in their ear, 'I went to Kelley!' On the other hand, if you went to Harvard for example, you would be able to spread your genes pretty much everywhere in Boston (and in the US for that matter) and thus contribute to evolution. Also, if you go to a better school (Harvard again!), you are pretty much guaranteed to marry a hot chick and your children will also be hot. Otherwise, you'd be stuck with some 4 or 5 at best and your children would be at high risk of being ugly and unhappy their entire life. And that just because you didn't transfer when you could. Think about it.
You would absolutely be better off being near the top of your class from IU over middle of the class at Stern.
You may not be able to land the absolutely killer megafund job coming out of undergrad, but with those grades you'll be in good position to land a job and then after a top MBA you will be on the same playing field. You wouldn't land the whale coming out of Stern with average grades either.
^^I agree with the above post. I actually graduated from IU's arch rival and I contemplated a similar transfer when I was a junior...but looking back, I'm glad I stayed put.
I'm not sure what year you are (freshman/sophomore/etc.), but I would focus on the long term. If you graduate near the top of your class at IU, you should be able to land a good job. You won't have access to recruiters like you would at a top 20 undergrad, but you should be able to land a good job nonetheless.
Then, as long as you are strategic for the 3-5 years following graduation, you shouldn't have a problem landing a spot in a top 10 MBA program. And from there you'll be on the same playing field as everyone else at the top programs.
My advice is to keep at the top of your class and get your hands on as much leadership experience as possible. Graduating at the top of the class at Kelley is much better than graduating average at Stern!
School Brand Name vs. Academics - Which is more important? (Originally Posted: 09/29/2011)
I have been doing some extensive research on which schools to apply.
Some students of general management program of a top school (can't name them or the school, its a top 10 US b-school) say that their programs are not that great academically and they are taught quite less but the school has an excellent alumni base and a great brand name, especially in the US.
One student went on to say that what you study in school is half as important as where did you go to school. Whatever you need to know will be taught by the company you join.
Now, my dilemma is that I am Business Management Graduate, and I am still applying to those schools because they have the attributes I mentioned above.
BUT! I am somewhat sure that I won't learn much out there, academically. I expect to network a lot and probably get a good job and also a strong brand name on my CV for the rest of my life.
On the other hand, I also plan to apply to some Masters in Finance programs but not the likes of MIT or Princeton and rather some relatively lesser known schools such as the Simon Rochester, Olin, Owen, McKenna, Warwick.
I might not have the strongest brand name on my CV but I expect to learn a hell lot from these programs because I suck at finance, even being a business grad.
So what do the experienced guys think ? Brand name? or Academics? What would you have done in my place ?
Brand name but most importantly make sure you know what Recruiters pull there, some schools are more recruiting heavy on consulting while certain others are for investment management etc. Why don't you just name the school you're talking about?
Well, I can say that top recruiters come there. Lets say I get into the program and then into a BB investment banking. Hypothetically.
Won't I be better off getting a Masters in Finance than a Generalist Masters ?
Sorry if the questions are naive, I am new at this.
Just name the school you dork. Speaking in vague generalities doesn't help anyone with anything.
Duke MMS. There is a reason I wasnt naming it. Your comment was really uncalled for.
Now some help here please ?
Grow some balls dude.
Duke MMS is a money-maker for the school. You do it to get the Duke name (and alumni, recruiting, etc.) on your resume, they get your tuition dollars.
Brand matters more.
Your company will train you on whatever you need to know for that position. Only exception will be the interviews: if you're interviewing for IB, you'll have to be sufficient technically to pass the interviews. But you don't have to be a finance mastermind to do the job.
Take a look at the analysts the BB IBs hire, or the analysts MBB hire in consulting. Lots of liberal arts kids from brand-name schools. These kids probably have never taken a finance class in their lives. They study enough to do the interviews, then get trained on the job.
So brand definitely matters more. But as the poster above said, ask to see where students from previous years placed. You want to make sure that the companies for which you want to work are actually recruiting at the institution you choose to attend.
Because it doesn't matter if you know everything if you cantget hired at the top firms and stop being all stealth mode and o no the school will find out I'm asking omg!!'1
okay!
Its not about school finding out, its something else.
Anyway, How do the job opportunities look for internationals out there?
I think people who do MMS here do fine. A lot of the info sessions I've been to this year had an MMS student as one of the recent hires. That said, I can't imagine the program is great on the academics, but like the posters above said..you have Duke OCR. And MMS uses the same platform as undergrad, so you're getting a top 10 undergrad recruiting platform as well. Most jobs are for Senior, Masters, and maybe Alumnus.
Use the search function and read up on the schools don't come here asking us to be your magic 8 ball
I got a general consensus from this forum that Simon MSF is not worth it. Is it so? or did I misapprehend ?
You did not misaprehend I don't think. Not really sure since that isn't a word but if you can get into Duke, don't bother with Simon (Where/what is that by the way)
I meant University of Rochester: Simon GSB Masters in Finance - Quite expensive as well - 65k$ for 1 year
University of Rochester's B-School
I think I've misapprehended this thread.
PM me. A friend of mine goes to Duke's MMS. The program is great and the brand name is obviously the strong suit. I don't know how much you will learn though. At this time it is hard to find an MSF with the rep that Duke has.
Have you looked at MIT's MSF?
@ANT I will pm you.
I did checkout MIT Columbia UCLA and all such programs, but MFE might not be for me as I am a business grad and am not that proficient in advanced math.
Not to mention MIT is very expensive!
Brand -- it follows you for life. No one cares what you studied in college. It's, "So where did you go to school?" No one asks, "So what kind of process improvement work did you do after college?" It's, "So where did you work?"
Makes sense!
I absolutely agree! Go for Brand name. Also, its not like these colleges do not teach at all! Companies will train you further.
The question is: What can get you a job, today, tomorrow, and in 5 years. A recession will kick the tires on the resilience of your chosen school. Take HBS vs. Stanford vs. Wharton vs. Sloan, Booth, Tuck at 2009 unemployment levels vs. other Top 25 MBA programs. Case method aside, brilliant finance professor Jeremy Siegel, VC Galore, E-lab -- the rest of the schools teach you the same thing.
Finance isn't fucking rocket science, go for the brand name. Why does every prestige related post on here end up under "Hot Topics"?
Brand name, as long as you're talking about the specific program, and not the broader university (for example, I would choose Haas over Yale SOM).
Or you can do a good job on your apps and go to a school that offers both.
What if I say - Duke MMS vs. Simon MSF or WUSTL MSF or Claremont MSF
Essentially - General Program from Duke vs. MS Fin programs.
Which one should I pursue ? - for a career in finance, preferably iBanking ?
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on MS Fin programs, but I've worked at two bulge-brackets and don't know of any MSF grads in IBD.
MSF is probably better positioned for a trading position. MBA is better positioned for IBD.
dont think i agree with either of what you guys said?
That's fine. I'm strictly speaking from my own experience. I work in IBD (used to be in S&T) and have yet to meet a single person in my current division with an MSF.
As a side note, I'm not sure why you punctuated that sentence with a question mark.
because im not 100 percent sure but im pretty sure most msf doesnt feed snt unless its princeton or mit. im sure duke n vandy nova etc place bankers
In the MMS program now...what I can say is this:
Academics - Top Notch, taught by the MBA professors. Rigorous course work; I think of it like taking the MBA core courses in a very short period of time. If you don't believe me, look at the 1st year MBA's, they are taking nearly identical courses, using the same text books, taught by almost all of the same professors. Shit is legit.
Recruiting - Yes it is a little more consulting heavy. If you network from the get-go you will be in good shape for landing IB interviews. A lot of my classmates have landed interviews at some BBs, many MMs, and boutique/regional MM shops.
But the program itself, it is fucking tough. 15 hr school days are NOT out of the ordinary. 3 comprehensive courses in 6 weeks x 5 times. The MMS academic staff have said themselves the hours and demanding workload are put in place to replicate careers in consulting and finance.
Don't expect to skate by in this program, its tough (and i'm not just saying that). Only the top 25% of the class gets above a 3.5 in any one course.
Good luck with your search!
What is your background like ? and what are u targeting for recruiting?
and whats the scene like for internationals ?
Do you know if any of the kids getting IBD interviews came in with previous experience/internships prior to the MMS program? I've been really interested in it, but would like to know what the odds of getting a solid finance gig are.
I seriously NEED an IBD related internship before I graduate, even if it's unpaid.
Chicago has a very strong MFM program, and the added benefit that you can take a class or two at Booth if you interested in some of the MBA Finance classes.
this thread is giving me a headache. honestly, i get that the guy is a foreign national, etc. but some people just don't get it and never will. imagine the next set of questions when he has to figure out what courses to take, what firms to apply to, what his interview story should be, what offer to accept, what desk to join, etc. etc.
^^^ what am I not getting ??
You either get it or you don't.
thats exactly what everyone is saying. dig around for info on your own and come to a conclusion then make targeted posts, dont ask for everyone to be your advisor every step of the way
Do top investment banks only value school's brand name not my major? (Originally Posted: 04/09/2013)
Hi everyone!
I am a third year bachelor student from Sweden. I have a problem of deciding which master programs to go and below is my offer: 1. MSF, Brandeis University 2. Master in Innovation and Entrepreneurship Management, London school of Economics (LSE)
I want to work in a top IB after my master graduation such as GS and UBS. I am wondering what top IB values the most. Do they really care about my major (such as that mgt program in LSE)? Or they value school's name much more than my major?
Please tell me which one is more important and which program should I choose.
Thank you so much!
Sed dolorem nihil modi reprehenderit. Quis culpa accusantium voluptatem ullam doloremque enim neque placeat. Vero eligendi suscipit dolorem a.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Consequatur dignissimos omnis consequatur sunt in sequi commodi. Ea sint consequatur corrupti et est. Temporibus earum architecto voluptas eveniet. Optio nulla cum dolorem corporis voluptatum qui ducimus.
Quod soluta sint impedit officia aut. Reiciendis eos expedita et illum modi. Animi rerum facere sit enim tempora repellat officiis ea. Maiores magnam dolorem odio et optio.
Ea fuga ducimus aut vel. Et rerum odio accusamus officiis commodi.
Eum dolorum doloremque optio ut explicabo ut cupiditate molestiae. Et repudiandae est eos sed voluptatem. Voluptas est dicta quas ut consequatur. Quod voluptatem rerum similique dolor. Qui voluptatem voluptatum nihil omnis enim.
Quae sint velit quaerat pariatur. Eos nam eaque est. Id perspiciatis et ea tenetur recusandae quia. Ad veniam rem libero rerum est. Dolorem quia nobis autem numquam. Consectetur consequatur ut consectetur.
Et officiis dolorum quaerat provident. Dignissimos assumenda reiciendis dignissimos facilis sit quod fuga. Odio dolorem aut ex voluptatem vero dolor quaerat.
Ea quia quos aut harum. Sapiente saepe dolor praesentium non ipsam saepe expedita. Voluptates quia dolore in sint autem. Explicabo nostrum reprehenderit rem sed. Molestiae commodi quod nihil velit ipsum neque.
Voluptatibus temporibus aut voluptate iure aut repellat. Est dolor eos corporis dolor delectus nisi quia. Voluptas voluptas recusandae qui eum saepe consequatur ea eos. Quo eveniet provident ipsum sed. Aut veritatis ut porro sit aut aut voluptas. Provident necessitatibus quidem blanditiis iste ad. Nemo rerum placeat autem minima accusantium.
Esse error autem unde commodi quo. Sunt non qui magni dolorem nostrum. Odio voluptatem explicabo dolorem ut. Atque nulla incidunt consequatur provident iste labore deleniti. Ullam et sunt nesciunt iure sed et. Ipsum autem iste voluptates voluptatem.
Occaecati quas illo dolorum harum quo iusto. Fugiat et vero atque rem est. Dicta delectus officiis nobis enim dolorem corporis. Assumenda aspernatur voluptatum occaecati.
Neque dolorem vero officia et quia facilis ducimus in. Tempore reprehenderit enim rem sunt ipsum sit. Natus et veritatis ad ullam quam dolorem delectus odit.
Reprehenderit incidunt velit itaque qui sed quis nulla mollitia. Eum repudiandae et ratione at amet. Nihil accusantium blanditiis impedit nobis et tempore impedit. Vel optio officiis reprehenderit doloremque saepe. Est fugiat cumque dolores possimus. Maiores consequuntur qui autem non et minus necessitatibus et.
Quo est voluptates fugit explicabo. Quas omnis inventore accusamus qui odio velit. Quo culpa consequatur suscipit debitis numquam voluptatibus et error. Amet ut quo ipsum minima nobis.
Aut porro voluptatem est odit. Aut veritatis ut iure ipsam omnis et voluptas.
Nisi iste neque et dolorem accusamus inventore. Ut adipisci itaque neque est. Eaque delectus enim id non. Qui aut est quia sunt est eos labore. Corrupti aut officiis quo iusto laudantium sint praesentium. Aut perspiciatis ut omnis tenetur. Iusto maxime qui quasi laborum tempora doloribus nobis.
Quis est vitae voluptas dicta repudiandae. Atque commodi suscipit voluptas quam dolorem similique eum. Quaerat ipsa inventore velit aut. Molestias ducimus doloribus sint odio quaerat.
Veritatis exercitationem ut minima nihil vero beatae iusto. Cupiditate dicta error consequuntur. Perspiciatis exercitationem voluptas error iusto quidem perferendis.
Sint sed laudantium et et sed. Provident dolor alias iste possimus.
Perspiciatis debitis ullam eius numquam deserunt deleniti. Laudantium adipisci qui veritatis a amet. Repellat qui quas delectus hic voluptates officia possimus.
Provident at sint error id. Ea at aut laboriosam a nam quae perspiciatis sint. Vitae ullam error adipisci voluptates magnam. Ex corrupti et itaque et. Reiciendis amet maiores aperiam consequatur. Perferendis harum at asperiores voluptates sunt.