How important is attending a target school?
How important is going to a target school?
Is it impossible without?
Can you get top investment banking jobs from semi-target or non-target school?
If so, what is nessary to do so?
How important is going to a target school?
Is it impossible without?
Can you get top investment banking jobs from semi-target or non-target school?
If so, what is nessary to do so?
+138 | Is my life over after not getting GS? | 33 | 3s | |
+73 | Best IB group on the Street | 35 | 3h | |
+66 | Thoughts and tips on how to speak like an investment banker. | 25 | 1d | |
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+49 | Tell me one good reason why Jefferies isn’t going to be a top bank in the next 5 years | 23 | 14h | |
+38 | UBS Outlook | 28 | 2d | |
+35 | How to deal with egotistical team? | 6 | 3d | |
+33 | Are you “less ambitious” for having long term goals outside of NYC | 13 | 9h | |
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Dude come on are you serious? Not only are there a million threads on this exact topic already, but the answer is obvious.
I'll tell you what I've learned from those million other threads. If you are at a "non target", it's all about networking. You have to find alumni that have broken into the industry and any other people that you can get in contact with. It's obviously easier at a "target" because banks come for OCR, which doesn't happen at "non targets". If you work harder than a student at a "target" it's possible to break in.
.
^Exactly. You can glean much more detailed and discussed information by searching for this topic, there are a million threads on it. In general though, the consensus is that networking becomes much more important at a non-target, as you do not get the name recognition or the on-campus recruiting. CompBanker, I believe, broke into IBD and PE from a non-target, so you may find some of his forum posts/blogs/qa sessions enlightening.
pretty obvious
1) Too many threads on this matter.
2) Target schools have OCR which makes things exponentially easier. Target resumes are viewed in a school-specific pile by alumni, whereas non-target resumes usually get lost in a black hole.
3) The shittier your school, the more important networking is. But if your school is really shitty, you probably can't find any alumni on Wall St anyways.
4) Please learn to use the search box on top.
Wow.... this type of post again. But I will give you a great picture. I got to meet the whole entire group of summer interns for 3 coverage group on one floor and also their analysts and associates at a BB in NYC. The 4 interns I've spoked to personally one on one in those three groups 2 from Princeton, 1 from Yale, and 1 from Norte Dame. The two from Princeton didn't network, worked in wealth management at a BB in their sophomore year broke into the BB group which is one of the stronger groups in that firm. The intern from Yale, never interned before. Very smart. Got in. One from Norte Dame, told me worked his ass off networking in order to break in. So, I think this will give you a picture that people from Targets like Ivy League schools are heavily favored.
GS(sometimes)/JPM/Citi/Jefferies recruit for FO at Brandeis but very few spots. Bentley is not much better but definitely has better alum. BU also has a very good alum resources. No matter what you didn't get into harvard/mit, so why not just pick the one you like and network your ass off.
I think you're in the wrong thread.
If you read the other threads the kid posted, they are all about the same topic. He is trying to make a decision and I just try to answer his real question :)
Just make sure you're not into that whole Yale thing.
G0tta netw0rk h@rder. pm blachhat I herd he can get you a job
How important is being from a target school? (Originally Posted: 02/17/2014)
I haven't gotten many SA interviews and no offers this year and I wonder if it's because I go to a non-target school with a GPA of only a little above 3.5. I'm in a non-target school because I started out engineering/pre-med but decided to pursue finance after freshman year; that's why my GPA sucks (It was like a 3.0 after freshman year).
I can answer technical questions well and interned at a regional boutique before.
The future importance of target schools??? (Originally Posted: 03/15/2012)
If two equally intelligent and charming candidates apply to the same job, one from a target school and other from a non-target, would the firm hire the former? How important is a degree?
Kevin Carey at the New Republic wrote an article the other day essentially questioning how long Ivies and other target schools will have a monopoly over selling education credentials.
He thinks their monopoly over higher ed is 'crumbling' and the way of the future is offering online courses for free and then having students pay a small fee to take an exam that tests whether or not they know the information.
If this happens or even begins to happen, how do you think the recruiting process for ibanks and hedge funds might change? Or will it change at all?
Article: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101620/higher-education-accreditati…
who knows. but if the article makes you feel better then just believe it
You are quite fiesty, sir.
Literally impossible to answer. How do we think a hypothetical shift in education could effect a completely unpredictable hiring environment at some unknown time in the future.
Ok, right, but the hiring environment right now is pretty predictable insofar as the likelihood of being hired as a student at a target vs. non-target school.
I guess my question is more about the importance of a prestigious degree, and how immutable that importance is for recruiters. If there are a bunch of Princeton grads at a firm, would there be a bias in favor of other Princeton applicants?
Even if these questions can't be answered, I think it's a really cool idea
As long as groups of extremely smart and ambitious people congregate in one location there will always be an interest in recruiters to go to that location. Target schools give you the advantage of getting a first round interview or a closer look during the screening process, but there's nothing stopping non-targets right now from getting the same opportunities if they put in the necessary work.
The prestige doesn't come from the schools as much as from the people who attend them. Until you see the best students go elsewhere the reputation will not go away.
I understand the concept of concentration of smart people, but there are tons of smart people who (for whatever reason) can't attend prestigious schools, and there are also tons of knuckleheads who (for whatever reason) can & do.
This. The value of going to a target is also that it signals to employers that, for whatever reason, you were a competitive applicant who was able to beat the odds and get accepted. I also think that the alumni factor is huge. Whether or not non-traditional educational systems begin to take hold, alumni from school X will almost always have some preference in considering candidates who are also from school X.
Wait till you guys see what I have on deck for tomorrow.
Even if IBanks change their recruiting process, that doesn't mean PE firms will.
for university recruiting, you're actually protected by the school to prevent the firms from taking advantage of you (Harvard won't invite GS on campus if they always treat Harvard kids like shit)
but GS isn't going to back you up when you apply to KKR.
^but gs alum at kkr will
I can see Ivies being rivaled in prestige as there are other up and coming universities that provide stellar educations, but I don't know if I could ever see Online classes overtaking conventional classes. But, who knows?
Why does the OP of these ridiculous threads always have to belittle the IVY league( and other top 25 schools) and prop up the non targets? We know there are dickheads EVERYWHERE and just because some sweatshop full of Jews and Asians don't recruit at your school, doesn't mean your school doesn't have talent in the student body.
[quote=jillmac]If two equally intelligent and charming candidates apply to the same job, one from a target school and other from a non-target, would the firm hire the former? How important is a degree?
Kevin Carey at the New Republic wrote an article the other day essentially questioning how long Ivies and other target schools will have a monopoly over selling education credentials.
He thinks their monopoly over higher ed is 'crumbling' and the way of the future is offering online courses for free and then having students pay a small fee to take an exam that tests whether or not they know the information.
If this happens or even begins to happen, how do you think the recruiting process for ibanks and hedge funds might change? Or will it change at all?
Article: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101620/higher-education-accreditati…]
I think it's pretty obvious that the 4 year degree model is dying, albeit slower than it should because universities are sacred and protected institutions in the Western world.
It makes sense from the employers perspective as well: Why hire someone with 150k in loans and a strong sense of entitlement when you can hire someone with little to no educational debt and a demonstrated ability to do the work required of them? The former will demand an extremely high salary simply because they need one to service their debt, while the latter can be paid peanuts in comparison.
The missing link in this story is the socialization that a university education provides, but there are cheaper ways to drink, hang out with people your age, and get laid.
Anyone want to open a new testing center or develop new behavioral screening tests?
I attend a Top 25 school (according to the Times Higher Education report yesterday, it's actually a Top 5 school). I wish that higher education followed this type of model. I think the university system is the cause behind a lot of our problems, including, but not limited to:
1) Structural Unemployment:
College is too often seen as the end, not a means to an end, so you have a collection of smart kids studying useless crap, for which the demand simply isn't there. If courses were available for free, and people could pick and choose the skills they were learning, we'd have a more efficient economy, complete with employees who could actually add value. (Think Microsoft's MCITP certification.) Further, people could respond to technological changes in the economy instead of feeling handicapped by decisions they made at the age of 17.
Hell: We see it on this very website, with a bunch of people gunning for BB jobs that don't even exist anymore.
To illustrate my point, last year, roughly 50,000 people graduated with a JD, and 14,000 with a Computer Science degree.
What in the...? I don't -- I can't even...
2) Social Hierarchy:
If anyone would like to pretend that going to Harvard Westlake or New Trier doesn't boost your chances of getting into Harvard or Princeton, then I don't really care to debate the point; however, there's a subset of the population that has obviously found a way to put the education system to work for them. Public Education counteracts this to a certain extent, but if education were as open as the article wanted it become, I think it could only help social fluidity.
Of course, as someone already noted, college is popular for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is social. It's impossible to predict what's going to happen long-term, but for the short term, I think the best way we could hope for is that the traditional 4-year degree model and these next-generation education systems find a way to coexist -- i.e., college graduates use these courses to develop practical, value-add skills. Of course, employers would need to respect these certifications for that to actually be feasible.
Also: I'll go ahead and second what Buyside said and point out that it's stupid to frame a thread like this in terms of "Non-Targets v. Targets," especially when this is such a cool fucking issue in the first place. It doesn't need the lame backdrop.
I went to New Trier. I can say with relative confidence that getting into Harvard out of New Trier is virtually impossible, unless you are an athlete.
Almost every single kid I knew at New Trier who went to Harvard or Princeton were star athletes who were recruited to play for varsity sports teams. We had multiple soccer, track & field, football, golf, and baseball athletes who went to play for Harvard, Yale, and Princeton's varsity teams each year, and most of these guys were no where near what I would call 'brilliant' academically.
Besides, I thought that New Trier was really, really tough academically. I think getting through New Trier's honors/ AP classes was much more rigorous/ exhausting than getting through my Ivy undergrad. In college, you have much more free time and you don't have to go to class everyday, nor do you have homework everyday. At New Trier, we had 3-4 hours of homework every fucking day, which was ridiculous amount of work for 16 year old kids, now that I look back...
Banking is, and will most likely always be, about brand.
if anything they are going to become more important in terms of screening for the most selective jobs as the workforce gets larger and more competitive, not less important
I have friends at HYP, the harvard and yale guys say the course work is 'a complete joke'. I don't really think that online degrees will ever replace brick and mortar schools, but I can see other schools overtaking the ivies in terms of reputation at some point.
How much does attending a school like Trinity, SLU, Gettysburg, Richmond, F&M, etc. undergrad hurt you? (Originally Posted: 06/04/2013)
These schools are top 100 in the country but aren't really in the same realm as targets/ivys. How much does attending a school like this undergrad hurt you in the hunt for starting analyst positions and in applying for b-school
Thanks in advance
A lot of rich kids go to those schools, so at least those schools have somewhat of a network.
They aren't all on the same level either. Look at the history and network (where grads work), not only today's rankings.
Why make life harder than it has to be? Go to a target, or go to a non-target for one-two years with the plan of transferring to a target.
A non-target school will affect your ability to get the top slots for IB out of UG; not saying it's impossible, but it will be significantly more challenging. The jobs you have out of UG (quality, firm, type of work) will affect your MBA application. It's all connected.
I went to a super non-target, it makes life a lot tougher. That said it is not impossible, get a good GPA, network and intern.
I think it sucks without an MBA
How Important is Undergrad (Originally Posted: 11/14/2014)
I'm wondering if its possible to go to a good grad school (Wharton, Stern, ...) if I didn't do great in undergrad. I went to a non-target undergrad and didn't do so well (about 3.0 overall, 3.2 major gpa in econ). However I found my way in my junior year and started killing it and became obsessed with doing well and getting into finance.
I then completed an internship at Morgan Stanley PWM and am on the next job search. Is it possible to do really well in my career positions leading up to grad school and then explain that I've developed significantly to school admission boards or will undergrad have a huge effect on their decision?
Sorry for the typos and bad grammar, this was written in a rush. Thanks!
Yes you can. just have a good story, do well in the GMAT, find out what you want to do in the future. There are a lot of posts about MBAs.
no name school and low gpa will definitely handicap you. youll want to get a high GMAT (730+) to try and make up for it and prove to the adcom you can handle the work
Your lack of research would indicate that you have no shot of getting into a top mba.
So that means no one can ask a question in a thread. What's the point of this forum?
That was a moronic statement.
I'm going to echo what Frank said but add a couple things.
Wharton is one of the most competitive b schools in the world, you'll need to get a super high GMAT and have a great story to get in. also, make sure you keep detailed records of all of the good stuff you do at your jobs as well as the results that came from it. this will help in crafting your story, which will need to be perfect given your undergrad brand + GPA.
Yes. I got into an MBA business schools">M7 and WLed at another with a sub-3.0 GPA from a top-25 school (top-10 engineering). I crushed the GMAT and worked for 7 years, which both helped.
It is doable, but you need to plan the story well. Use the optional essay part to explain why your grades are so low. You need to make sure the rest of your application (work, GMAT, recs) are on point, and then have a cohesive story as to what led to your poor performance and why you won't repeat that in b-school.
I'm facing the same thing. I wasn't serious about school until I changed majors to finance, began taking meds for my ADHD (diagnosed at 17, didn't take meds until 27), and realized that finishing school was paramount to having any chance to succeed. I went to a community college and made bad grades (2.5 GPA), then transferred those years old credits to a non-target state school. My junior and senior classes in my major were around the 3.5 mark, including classes in derivatives (toughest class in that school's business curriculum), two semesters of a student managed investment fund, international finance, Security Analysis, and all the other "tougher" finance classes. It increased my GPA to a 3.0, and was done while working a full-time corporate job and raising two children. There were many nights where my "equity analyst" partner from that student fund and I would be working on a stock to pitch and financial models at 3 in the morning and one of my kids would wake up and need me. It was nuts, but I still managed to do well in my major. I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17,18, so I didn't enjoy school and didn't really care. It was only when I realized that I absolutely enjoyed finance and it was something I could be really good at. I'm going to have to use some of that explanation in my essays as I apply to schools, maybe not the medical part. Haven't taken the GMAT yet, but I do pretty well with standardized tests. I agree with the others here that the best way to address the limitations in your applications is to do just that, address them. Don't make excuses, just explain the negatives by pointing them out, stating what happened, what you learned from them, and explain how that will make you a better candidate than others with that school and as an alumni out in the world after you graduate.
there are probably 100's of posts about this on poets and quants...
I believe that undergrad pedigree and performance is more important than ever for two reasons.
First, our society is becoming more credential driven, especially entrance into elite jobs in finance, consulting, tech. In many ways, one can argue that access to these jobs is being outsourced to the admissions officers at our best colleges.
Second, for finance at least, the game starts SUPER EARLY. To get on the coveted path, you have to get the right job after college; this sets you up nicely for lucrative buyside gigs and if interested, admission to the elite b-schools. Now, it is true that a top MBA can be used for career transitions, but I think people overstate this. Can one get banking without relevant experience? Yes, but the most desirable and interesting finance jobs are reserved for those with relevant impressive pre-MBA background.
Is Undergrad really that important? (Originally Posted: 08/12/2011)
If i went to a decent public university (University of Nebraska), got accepted into Honors, joined iBanking club, and networked would i have any shot in Midwest banking?
Or would i be better off going to Creighton?? Kind of want to stay in state
Short version. Yes.
Im not a search Nazzi but you're about to get chewed mate.
Yes you'd have a shot. Follow in Buffet's footsteps and go to Nebraska.
what the hell is creighton?
Sure.
My aunt went to Creighton and it's a good school, but nobody has heard of it out here. Go to University Nebraska and you get credit for a flagship land grant state school. Then get a 4.0 GPA in Engineering, and you'll even have a pretty good shot on Wall Street.
For those who don't know, Creighton is the Fordham of the Midwest. Everybody in Nebraska and perhaps a few folks in Chicago have heard of Creighton and think it is a decent school, but cross the Appalachians and suddenly nobody has heard of it.
Unless the Jesuits give you money, I think the state school is the clear choice.
^^^ Then you're in the wrong industry. If you want to work in Chicago, you want to do insurance or (maybe) high frequency trading. Either way, University of Nebraska will do you just fine, but then you want to aim for Actuarial Science if you plan on working in insurance.
well i've neevr actually been to chicago, i was just saying that i dont want to go to NYC, i could deal with Houston/Chicago/Seattle and always assumed Chicago was the best for finance. I hope to go into M&A or something, not really into Trading
If you want to do M&A, you almost certainly have to go through New York.
There are a small handful of MM firms in Chicago like William Blair and RW Baird. The bigger firms have Chicago offices, but the deal gets sent off to New York to get finished.
You are still young. You will change your mind about this several times. Try and figure out, though, if you are more dead set on avoiding New York or more dead-set on doing M&A/IPO work.
yeah im just not sure if i would like trading, i have a virtual stock account and its not doing great, but i'm just kind of looking at colleges now, want to have more of a plan, i figured on studying either finance/comp science/pre-med/pre-law at Nebraska and have already been invited into the honors program, might go with that and use college money to go for a top MBA/JD/PharmD.
Extracurriculars are awful. The only reason they're valued by schools and employers is that they know if you're willing to endure that garbage to get accepted/hired, you'll accept and not whine about whatever they pile on you on the job. Which I suppose is fairly sound logic.
so am i going to have a tough time getting into a good university without many ECs?
is M&A/IPO and TMT work good in L.A., since i mean silicon valley is like a couple miles away? Just wondering
You can always lie/exaggerate about extras. I agree that they are crap that most people exaggerate anyway. ECs matter to employers only when you don't have work experience. Universities look at them as another datapoint that would allow them to ding you vs. someone else as they already have enough qualified applicants that look very similar.
Undergrad Matter? (Originally Posted: 11/05/2009)
Does where you went to school still matter to MM PE firms if you have great experience from a top MM IB and had excellent grades, but went to a completely unheard of non-target?
I've heard of elite PE turning down post-banking Analysts because of non-target/semi-target backgrounds. Never heard of MM PE turning down great candidates because of non-target background.
P.S.: I also know one complete non-target who is at top PE. So I guess there are always exceptions
..
Harris Williams? You should be ok but perhaps try a top MBA first. That will cancel your ugrad.
HW has 100% placement into MM PE. Freaking insane. MDs go to bat for their Analysts big time.
It will be mostly based on your deal experience. If you have good experience and your MD has the right contacts, you'll be fine. It is certainly not unheard of - go look at the websites of MM PE firms and you'll see plenty of kids from MM IBs.
^ Oh yeah I know, I thought he meant he wanted top PE. I wouldn't say 100% though, I'm sure someone gets into an accident now and then or decides to change careers (aka nurse or something, hahaha).
What about one of those mega PE funds (Silver Lake, Carlyle, Blackstone).
Do they still consider undergraduate institution, GPA, etc? I don't have a stellar GPA and I'm from a non-target. Would it be necessary to go get an MBA even after banking experience?
Yes (A LOT), yes (a bit). But then again, if well-known MD goes to bat for Analyst, everything can happen.
It's nearly impossible to get into banks that lead to mega PE funds with non-stellar GPA and non-target background.
im from a no-target and will be starting ft at a top BB. talking to alumnus from my school who work at the firm, they all were top analysts who had trouble getting top PE/HFinterviews because of the school they went to. the 2nd tier analysts in their groups got better interviews than them and it was based solely on the network of their undergrad institutions...
guess networking will be more important for us
How important is your undergrad institute? (Originally Posted: 01/09/2013)
Hello all,
Just looking for some guidance. I've started post-secondary rather late in life and would like to accelerate my progress as fast as possible. The one way I have found to do this is by enrolling in a "lower-level" (but accredited) university and complete an undergrad degree online, taking as many courses as possible per semester, and then enroll in an MBA/MSF program at a target school. My question is this: how important is the brand of your undergraduate institution? Obviously "classier" universities are more attractive, but do marks ever take precedent over status?
Thanks for any help or suggestions in advance.
Since i went to a semi-target public undergrad, I can tell you from personal experience that its very tough to break into a target grad school. Unless you can pull a super high GMAT score and have awesome experience, very very hard to break into a target grad school. Also, look into CFA...will definitely increase ur odds with grad school but see if its worth it given your goals and current status.
but overall yes from personal experience, brand of undergad does matter. not overwhelming but a big factor I would say.
-
Extremely.
Acer,
Is this specifically for finance? What if you're looking for an MBA in another discipline, such as technology.
I don't know about MBA, but I got into a top MFE program and I went to a non-target public school.
My suggestion, worry about things you can control (recommendation letters, essays, work experience, GPA, GMAT score). You can't control the brand name of your undergrad institution because you already started it and the brand name is not great. The GMAT + application fees is just a minor investment... you never know what the people on the other side think... Plus, if you are a minority add a few more points for your application...
yes if you are a fresh graduate, less so as you progress with you career. well, that's if you can break into the industry in the first place.
Very important. If you want to go to a target MBA program, you need to enroll, at a bare minimum, in a university people will recognize, such as a major state a school. If you look at top MBA programs, they filled largely with people that have strong academic pedigree.
From what I understand it's somewhat important. However I know several people from Baruch College (not sure if it counts as low-level though?) who got into target MBA programs such as HBS, Wharton, Columbia, Booth, etc
I wouldn't necessarily consider Baruch as a low-level institution. I know a few people from Baruch and a small number actually get FO gigs.
does where i get my undergrad from really matter (Originally Posted: 04/01/2013)
hello everyone, i am currently at Southern Illinois University, and i know its not a target school for I-banks. I was a direct admit into the Kelly school of business at Indiana University, but SIU gave me a full scholarship, so i enrolled there. But now, I'm wondering if i made the wrong choice of school, with the highly competitive world of i-banking. i have a high gpa, i am involved in the community, and i have started to network.
i dream of working in Chicago, New York, or LA, and eventually making a move over to VC.
Your opportunities will definitely be better at Kelley.
Transfer to Kelley, and aim for NYC. It will offer you the best opportunities going forward.
To be honest, yeah you made the wrong choice. That doesn't mean you still can't reach your goals, but it's going to be a lot harder coming from SIU than Kelley.
would you recommend that i finish my generals at siu, since it doesn't cost me anything, then transfer, since IU's out of state tuition is high. or transfer as soon as possible
There are people with 3.7 GPAs at Princeton who didn't even get interviews this cycle for SA at BBs. You are drastically underestimating how competitive this industry is. I definitely suggest transferring to most prestigious UG possible, so long as you graduate with
People like that not even getting interviews probably stems from a lack of internship experience or extracurriculars..
I used to live in the dale. Your chance of getting on the street is very slim. Transfer asap.
Yes, internships and extracurriculars would definitely help those kids get interviews. But a lot of it is just the level of competition.
Think about it: 9 BB IBD programs each take 5 kids from a target school for 45 total. But how many were minorities, women, varsity athletes, and the very well connected? Half? More than half? At the end of the day, white/asian males without sports/connections need to do everything right if they are going to break in.
I actually have one other question, and I have decided to transfer to one of the schools I originally got into as a freshman, just haven't decided which one yet (Indiana university, Illinois university, or northwestern, I like the big 10). But would interning at Raymond James help out. I know its not a huge firm but they do have an ivestment banking division, and my high school girlfriend's father is a higher up there and said he can help get me an internship helping out with their investment bankers.
... Wait a minute, you got into Northwestern too? That's a huge target for Chicago offices.
And yes, an internship will definitely help you out as it'll show that you're hungry and interested in breaking into the industry.
NU is the best of those schools and a semi target for BB NYC offices as well.
Dude, what were you thinking when you chose SIU over Indiana?
And why didn't you mention Northwestern the first time?
I'm starting to get the idea that you didn't do your homework on investment banking recruiting.
I got a full ride to siu and my parents aren't helping much with college, and talked me into going to siu against my wishes. I never wanted to apply there in the first place, I just did it to see what kind of scholarships I would get. Also I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was between finance and engineering until the summer between my senior year and freshman year of school. I started reading financial articles and watching financial television programs and finance began to really appeal to me. But at that point it was too late
Yeah, and Chicago is where i want to work, since i love the city and I'm from Illinois so it's closer to my family but I don't want to be 100000 in debt and not being able to get a job, that's why I went siu. And northwestern only accepts about 8% of transfers, so I'm not sure if I'd get in since I dont have a 4.0, I missed a 4.0 by .54% in one class and the TA wouldn't give me a break. So IU and U of I are my top choices, and I'll apply to transfer to michigan while I'm at it.
Holy shit, kid
I really appreciate the all of the advice, I just wish I would of know about this forum a year ago when I was choosing a school. I guess I really have to reevaluate my education. And I got some aid the last time but not nearly enough since my parents do ok, and I'm a white male so aid discriminates against me.
Don't you worry, don't you worry child. See heaven's got a plan for you...
You can overcome your background. Transfer to a better school and it won't matter. Just keep your grades up.
Did I screw myself out of the industry? (Originally Posted: 03/15/2011)
Looking to get into a consulting firm, but I feel like I screwed myself.
I graduated from a small private school in PA about 5 years ago. I have about 4 years of experience in financial services, which I am on an internal consulting team working on system conversations, outsourcing, and shared service implementation. Recently, I completed my MBA at a lower-tiered school because they had a good professional program (so I could work through the program). Also, I come from a family of entrepreneurs with 3 successful family businesses that I have played a role in building/growing.
Did I screw myself with my school choices? Thoughts and suggestions?
Thank you in advance for any insight.
.
Way too vague buddy, clarify your position and game plan for getting into consulting. Your background definitely doesn't sound like McKinsey partners are going to come begging you to work for them, if that's what you're asking...
Current position = Business Analyst in an Investment Management Services company - we provide outsourced services for Asset Managers, which is correct that is it operational strategy.
Education = MBA from state university with a 3.7 GPA; BS in Business from a small private school (not well known for Business outside of PA) --- I understand that I do not have an MBA from a top-tier firm
you sort of did
Try for Accenture SI with your background
Does your school or background matter for getting a full-time offer? (Originally Posted: 07/28/2012)
my thoughts are if one candidate comes in with a 3.9 from Harvard or Wharton their first staffings tend to be more substantive, they might get the benefit of the doubt for being smart if they mess up the first time, whereas someone with so-so grades from a state school might be held to a higher standard. unfortunately its really unfair, but does anyone get that impression from your firms, or is it 100% meritocratic?
obviously there are 10 weeks to prove yourself, and a great intern from indiana will get an offer over an ok one from harvard, but can you see it making a difference for a candidate on the fence?
the indiana kid will have to prove that he is not stupid, not a rube, and doesn't have a grating chip on his shoulder. this is in addition to all the basic stuff the harvard kid is going to have to prove. this is advantage #407 of going to a top target.
melvvvar, your reply is ridiculous - clearly neither of you has worked in IBD. If you're a non target student, noone will assume you are inferior to the others and you will be given a shot just like everyone else. There are plenty of target people who suck and don't get return offers. Work hard, show your competency (assuming you worked your way to a BB from a non target, I assume you're a reasonably good, hardworking candidate) and have a good attitude. You'll be fine.
Unfortunately Mel is more on point.
Certainly the assumptions made about your intelligence hold true, but I would say there is also the second disadvantage of having fewer alum at the bank.
I know Harvard, Wharton, etc. kids get invitations to mixers, dinners, and other networking events with alum at banks that don't happen for non-target school kids (just by the sheer fact of there being fewer numbers and those that are there seem to take the attitude on the most part that they had to work extra hard to get to where they are and expect others to do the same). I have known of a couple kids who find mentors or even are able to network their way into other positions at the bank if they think a return offer is unlikely at these sorts of events.
In general though, you shouldn't underestimate the power of good work. If you do an awesome job (more than slightly better than the target kids), I think you get more respect (since you've "beaten the expectation").
Don't be bitter. The situation is what it is. Ultimately, I still think it is easier to be a non-target guy at one of these places than a woman from any school, target or not.
Target Schools: essential to success....? (Originally Posted: 04/19/2017)
Before you read this, I know there are articles out there relating to this topic. However, my difference is that I'm not sure what I want to do in finance yet. PE, IB, etc.. are all interests of mine and my current goal is to get an MBA in finance and minor in entrepreneurship. I am a college freshman, and I'm just beginning to learn about all aspects of the financial world. I'm reading books such as "Working on the Street" to form a better understanding of what I actually want to do in this field, so I feel that I am close to figuring out my goals, but fear that not attending a top school will limit my options.
My main question to all of you is: is it vital to be in a target school in order to eventually land a successful job in finance? I know this question is broad, but like I said I am just starting out. I currently go to a SEC school that doesn't really have many opportunities available for me to expand and grow, so I am transferring to a school in a big city that has a great finance program. The school isn't exactly top-tier, but by no means is a bad school. If I'm a hard-worker, proactive in networking, upping my resume with internships, and am doing all that I can based on my current situation to ensure success in the future. Any thoughts about this question, or general advice for my next steps would be appreciated. Thanks.
If the question is Target or bust, then no you can always make it big without a target UG.
With that said, you have to be top talent at your marginal school. If you grind hard enough, meet the right people and are prepared for the opportunities that come your way you can pull it off.
To go into more detail, top talent is defined as very high GPA, very involved....etc? Or are there key parts that most UGs miss when going through school? Thanks for the response.
Benefits of a target school? (Originally Posted: 09/11/2013)
I'm a ways off from directly benefiting from this information but I can't find many posts that speak to the less obvious benefits of a target school. (Looking mainly for MBA but for the sake of the information, UG information is good too).
I know that target schools benefit from on-campus recruiting and interviews from the majority of firms in a given industry. I attended a top national Big 4 target. I was an average student (on paper) compared to my peers but landed a "competitive" Big 4 offer with relative ease.
On the other hand, only the elite students (again, on paper, though some probably were legitimately elite) landed MBB/BB offers.
Obviously the elites at a target will land their offers. But what is the competition like for the masses? At a given MBA business schools">M7 target, what might be the offer to application rate for MBB or BB? Compared to semi- or non-target?
Can anyone offer insight as to other benefits of a target school besides those mentioned above?
Preftige.
If you have to ask...
^ Sums it up
It means that when some guy who studied English and played Tennis at Yale tells you that UT Austin or UIUC or UMich isn't a real school, you can tell them that English isn't a real major and tennis isn't a real sport- and put them in their fucking place.
If you went to a public Ivy and landed at a Big Four, you've done well for yourself. Making partner there and having Wharton Accy majors work for you should be enough to convince folks you're as good and prestigious as anybody, but some people out there have REALLY thick skulls. So the one last perk of an elite graduate degree is that the last few idiots finally shut up.
The downside is that if you go to a school like HBS, you can no longer be the UT Austin kid trolling the Columbia alumns. As the UT Austin kid, you were kinda funny- as the HBS MBA, you're a douchebag.
In terms of actual grad school advice, the substance of why you want to go has to be about what the program has to offer. Not sure if Big Four means CPA or consulting. But either way if you want to be a CFO, or if the consulting firm is paying for it and says you have to do this to advance, it makes a lot of sense. Some of the time you'll get a return offer, and if it's free tuition, it's kinda hard to say no to. A consulting background could set you up well for a BB or even in some cases a PE offer depending on your consulting roles, but I'm a quant from an MFE program, not a banker.
Oftentimes a top tier MBA is also a way to solidify/lock in your career success if you come from a state school. It is also a mild signal that there's a cap on how well your career is going- otherwise why would you spend two years in grad school? (I say this as a 2nd year grad student). But it also helps keep a lot of doors propped open to you that could otherwise one day close if your career doesn't work out exactly as planned.
As a state school kid, you will always carry a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Some folks who don't know better will disparage that chip, but it's really a good thing. It's a good thing to want to prove yourself- it's a good thing to want to write better code or build better excel models than the kid from Columbia. It's good to let yourself think that he thinks he's better than you. (Just please have some compassion for your future self and don't do this to state school undergrads who went back to grad school- they honestly think you're at their level.) It's good to spend a few extra hours getting that project done while everyone else relaxes because you've got to prove yourself to the people from the private schools. And as you run circles around them, the smart ones and the people that count will begin to respect you, the momentum will build, and your career will advance faster than someone from a top target. Then one day three or four years from now, you will think again about grad school and determine whether it's a good business decision or not.
Good luck to you. Hope you counter-troll the "preftige" trolls well. (Maybe an ivy league institution could teach them how to spell prestige? Just a thought.)
Well said, and thank you for the advice. I couldn't agree more and when I am at an MBA business schools">M7 grad school, I'll remember your advice and pay it forward.
Based on my research (as an applicant and from a semi-target private undergrad), the bottom line is that a "M7 Target" as you called it, you WILL get a job offer from OCR, should you go that route. Am I exaggerating? Probably a bit, but seriously, if you go to Booth, for example, you're going to get a job. Maybe not the PE job that you pursued, and maybe not even MBB/BB, but you'll get Tier 2 consulting or MM Banking or Fortune 500 Corp. Development somewhere.
To me, that's huge, because it takes a lot of the risk factor out of the equation. Offer to application rate is so hard to determine, for a number of reasons. One, I would be much more concerned with interview to application rate, since I really think that things are relatively equal once you get an interview. More people will get interviews at Wharton tha will at Darden, and most likely, more of those interviews will turn into jobs. That is obviously for a reason, since a lot of the characteristics that MBB will look for are what Wharton looked for in the first place (thus, more people from the better school will get interviews, and then do well in them).
But really, if you're not a douche, and want to go back to school for things other than "prestige", like to change industries, re-enter recruiting pool at MBB/BB, build a network, maybe learn something (!!), target schools just offer you tons of chances to achieve your goal. Illini commented more on the prestige side of things, but seriously, if you work in Big 4 consulting now, and you want to go be an investment banker, target schools will help...
Thanks again for your advice, as always. You summed it up for me there. It makes sense that the hoops you jump through to get MBA business schools">M7 synergize with what MBB is looking for.
Definitely not looking solely for prestige, but a huge, effective career reset so I can do something where being an individual and innovating are more encouraged, like consulting.
What's the advantage of going to a target school? (Originally Posted: 07/24/2011)
Maybe this is a stupid question, by why exactly is it so important to go to a target school? I've heard a few reasons so far:
Are there others?
I'm asking because I'm currently in a Ph.D. in philosophy at a top 20 school and big target regionally, but I'm thinking of doing a MSF at a non-target state school (perhaps concurrently with the PH.D.) and I'm wondering to what degree my affiliation with the target school will be helpful in getting finance jobs.
So you're a phd candidate in philosophy who wants to work in finance? How did that happen?
How sure are you that it did happen.... ;)
The basic story is that I realized I don't want to be a professor and even if I did, there aren't really many professor jobs, plus that lifestyle gives you little geographic choice over where you work and little financial incentive.
I'm interested in finance through a part-time job I had as a poker player during school. I became fascinated with using my logic abilities and some self-taught risk management and equity evaluation techniques to make smarter, more profitable poker decisions. So I started researching finance and now I'm here.
Thanks for the information. Law school is not really an option for me and I think law school is a bad idea in general. The law market is more or less abysmal right now even for graduates of top schools.
I know going to a target school is better. I'm asking because there are no target schools for finance in my area and my current school does not offer an MSF (they offer an MBA but I can't do that because of lack of work experience). I'm asking if the affiliation with the target school (albeit in an unrelated major) will help me get a finance job.
I haven't started on the actual dissertation yet. I went to the school to do ethics, but if I think another area would be more helpful I might switch areas.
^^ That'd be my first, and probably last, question during an interview. My guess is you want money and realize that teaching bored state school undergrads the intricacies of the Cartesian Circle, and the accompanying $50k salary, just wasn't worth the 9 years of your life?
At least do law school where your years of reading impossibly dense texts might be useful. I'm assuming you are 25-27 years old. You'd definitely be on the older end of the MSF spectrum at most schools.
To answer the other part of your question: what else do you need? Target schools give you access to firms that actually want to hire you. OCR = gold. Target school students also command higher salaries.
For example, I know some F500 firms will pay a top 10 MBA grad a significant premium, plus a higher signing bonus, than they will for a 30s ranked MBA student (I've experienced this firsthand, in fact).
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