Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Is Not Guilty?

I am not advocating his innocence. But remember:
History is written by the victor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2313303/Disgusting-Facebook-gro…

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/21/online-supporters-rush-to-declare-tsa…

Edit: People, please read carefully. I am editing this post to stop people from making assumptions regarding my motives for said post.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Is Not Guilty? does not equal Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Is Not Guilty. I am not saying he is innocent. He is not. I was curious to see what WSO had to say on the blogs and their "evidence" of his innocence, and also wanted to remind everyone that there are always two sides to a story.

 
Battleship:
he (they) is not guilty, but people wont buy it

media is so damn effective, its impressive... manipulation at its best not much they can do, people are slaves fed with crap

So when they release the video of them placing the bombs -- will that be enough for you?

 
bengigi:
Here we go with the conspiracy theories...

sure, mark it as one, but why not contribute and say what is it they are wrong at? or is it always just a bunch of lunatics around that search for conspiracies

 
animalz:
bengigi:
Here we go with the conspiracy theories...

sure, mark it as one, but why not contribute and say what they are wrong? or is it always just a bunch of lunatics around that search for conspiracies

The latter seems about right.
 

Say I'm part of a shady, underground, military corporation tasked to carry out a false flag bombing of a public event filled with cameras and CCTV, reckon I'd wear my company's hat?

"#1: I want a Times New Roman in the streets but a Wingdings in the sheets."
 
TierOne:
Say I'm part of a shady, underground, military corporation tasked to carry out a false flag bombing of a public event filled with cameras and CCTV, reckon I'd wear my company's hat?

This is what gets me with the outlandish claims. So people believe the government is up to no good. I get that and I'm not sure I would entirely dispute that. The problem is, with events like this and Sandy Hook, where the "victims" were really government pawns used to further gun control...so they were relocated and not killed...how do you get a whole entire town to just pick up their lives and willing take part in all of it? Or in this case, how do you have the foresight to plan such an elaborate event, but forget to give the patsies the right backpacks? And how do you have the trained mercenaries show up in their work outfit? Would you put them in civilian attire show they don't show up in all of the photos around the scene? And who goes on the Internet and tells people about a conspiracy but then says they can't alert authorities because they could get in trouble, lose their job or be imprisoned? You would think divulging that sensitive information to strangers on the Internet would also qualify for that purported jail time, etc.

Look, part of me says there is more to what is going on than meets the smell test. I have questions surrounding the first 'person of interest' in the case and would be curious to find out where he is, etc. There are some very curious events surrounding that guy and his connections with this event, potential terrorism and his student status here in the states...among other things. I've questioned since the first day or so if there wasn't more to his situation than what we've been told. It was being reported that he was being detained and the FBI raided his houses, leaving with a few things. Then later we were told by the authorities that he was not a suspect or person of interest, but just a victim. Some sources told news outlets he was going to be deported but the government came out and said that it was a different Saudi student that was being deported.

Who knows, maybe it's a huge coincidence that the first guy is a Saudi national, purportedly a member of a prominent Saudi family that has ties to terrorism. Maybe it's also a coincidence that Kerry and Obama separately met with the Saudi Foreign Minister on Tuesday and Wednesday, respectively. And maybe it's a coincidence that another Saudi student was issued a deportation order around the same time. Who knows?

What I do know is that at any given time, the government has it's hands in a ton of potentially shady stuff with the intent of promoting our national interests abroad. As history and time has shown us, we sometimes end up on the wrong end because we haven't be able to master the law of unintended consequences.

I will admit that the trusted flyer status brokered for certain Saudi students struck me as very odd.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

Guys, you don't need a cospiracies. USA started wars saying that someone who barely had guns and pistols was a threat and had nuclear bombs. C'mon, what will be the point? If a school tragedy with so many dead children was not enough to change your arms rules, you will need a lot more than two steamer bombs in Boston. And you don't even need to invade Chechnya.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 
cruel3a:
Guys, you don't need a cospiracies. USA started wars saying that someone who barely had guns and pistols was a threat and had nuclear bombs. C'mon, what will be the point? If a school tragedy with so many dead children was not enough to change your arms rules, you will need a lot more than two steamer bombs in Boston. And you don't even need to invade Chechnya.

You're clueless.

 

Lets answer the "why were there covert operatives/pmc contractors there in the first place?" question whilst we're at it. Errrr because if you're organising a mass public event there is a real risk of terrorism (as we evidently saw) and it's your job to mitigate that risk the best way possible. If it were me in charge, guess who I'd call, the guys from Blackwater, Craft et al.; it really should be no surprise that those kind of individuals were present at this sort of event. And guess what it's ok to do if you're protecting an event in this kind of capacity... wear your company's branded clothes.

"#1: I want a Times New Roman in the streets but a Wingdings in the sheets."
 
TierOne:
Lets answer the "why were there covert operatives/pmc contractors there in the first place?" question whilst we're at it. Errrr because if you're organising a mass public event there is a real risk of terrorism (as we evidently saw) and it's your job to mitigate that risk the best way possible. If it were me in charge, guess who I'd call, the guys from Blackwater, Craft et al.; it really should be no surprise that those kind of individuals were present at this sort of event. And guess what it's ok to do if you're protecting an event in this kind of capacity... wear your company's branded clothes.

I dont think private security forces are allowed to patrol domestically unless requested. And if requested, why not just clarify and put these idiots to bed?

 
WhiteMamba:
TierOne:
Lets answer the "why were there covert operatives/pmc contractors there in the first place?" question whilst we're at it. Errrr because if you're organising a mass public event there is a real risk of terrorism (as we evidently saw) and it's your job to mitigate that risk the best way possible. If it were me in charge, guess who I'd call, the guys from Blackwater, Craft et al.; it really should be no surprise that those kind of individuals were present at this sort of event. And guess what it's ok to do if you're protecting an event in this kind of capacity... wear your company's branded clothes.

I dont think private security forces are allowed to patrol domestically unless requested. And if requested, why not just clarify and put these idiots to bed?

(Covert Operatives? They're called security guards.)

 

It seems pretty clear that these guys did it. I like conspiracy theories, they're good mental excercise. Sometimes they're true: uhm, can you say Iraq War? Often they're not: no, the lizard people didn't run 911, the CIA didn't kill their favorite president(Kennedy), and yes dammit we landed on the moon, so .

Thing is, until there's any proof, it's just a theory. Until then, theorize away. The truth actually IS out there and a healthy dose of skepticism is just part of life for thinking people. Just....don't get too attached to a particular theory or forsake the concensus view just to do it, Alex Jones has already cornered that market :)

Get busy living
 
animalz:
bengigi:
Here we go with the conspiracy theories...

sure, mark it as one, but why not contribute and say what is it they are wrong at? or is it always just a bunch of lunatics around that search for conspiracies

yeahright:
Conspiracy? They were throwing grenades out the window during the car chase. Do innocent people do that?
 
holla_back:
UFOinsider:
http://wonkette.com/513260/looks-like-glenn-beck-has-at-least-four-list…

hahahaha

Jesus Christ, UFO -- you're not a regular Wonkette reader, are you?

Oh hell no, I never even heard of it until that article was referenced. If I wanted subculture, I'd call up people in the private intelligence collection business. I've spent enormous amounts of time studying ethics, and by extension political theory, and I've found that the simplest version of the 'truth' is usually the closest to the facts. There are plenty of crooked people working an angle or running hypotheticals, but a true conspiracy is extremely rare.
Get busy living
 

They did it but whatever trigger happy cop shot at the boat leaves these conspiracies out there. Such people tarnish the life of an 8 year old kid but I'd like to see something done about the cop(s) who shot the 2nd brother after he was practically holed up with nowhere to go.

 

I find it hilarious that people are using that imgur album to question the bombing. The naked man that was also on the ground is the person they arrested (falsely) who was the owner of the car the two suspects hijacked trying to flee MIT. Also why wear a Craft hat if you are trying to go unrecognized ? Lastly, the picture of the bookbag with the white tape was found at site 2 not site 1 where the Craft people where stationed.

 

To be fair, while the evidence overwhelmingly seems to indicate his culpability in the events, I think it is critically important that due process is not abandoned. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. It's times like these when it is is most important to uphold due process.

xoxo

[quote=Dirk Dirkenson]Shut up already. Your mindless, reflexive responses to any critical thought on this are tedious. You're also probably a woman, given the name and "xoxo" signoff, so maybe the lack of judgment is to be expected.[/quote]
 
Louboutins and Leverage:
To be fair, while the evidence overwhelmingly seems to indicate his culpability in the events, I think it is critically important that due process is not abandoned. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. It's times like these when it is is most important to uphold due process.

xoxo

^^Bingo.

The interesting question here is whether he can be given the death penalty, assuming he stands trial and gets convicted. The problem is, anything he said after being taken into custody is likely going to be inadmissible (1) because he wasn't Mirandized and (2) he was probably heavily sedated, so any confession he made will likely be thrown out or, at the very least, be called into serious question.

It's very possible law enforcement will be able to establish 'intent' which is relevant.

At any rate, he should have been read his rights and allowed to seek proper counsel.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 
Louboutins and Leverage:
To be fair, while the evidence overwhelmingly seems to indicate his culpability in the events, I think it is critically important that due process is not abandoned. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. It's times like these when it is is most important to uphold due process.

xoxo

Was thinking the sameee thing.
 
AllDay_028:
CRE:
This is, without question, one of the worst threads on WSO. Circle jerk of morons
Please, regale us with your unparalleled wisdom and insight.

It doesn't take unparalleled wisdom and insight to not believe in conspiracy theories so I never claimed I had either.

I'm just not an idiot

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

I'm kinda with CRE. Lots of conspiracy theories (including this one, waaay too much evidence that they did this) are stupid. Where I'm not with him is not believing in conspiracy theories period. There are some with strong foundations. Occasionally those end up being true, see: http://truththeory.com/2013/02/15/5-conspiracy-theories-which-turned-ou… (note: I don't know anything about the site, this was one of the first Google results and I know that the conspiracies it mentions are true)

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

these guys seem pretty guilty and dzhokhar will probably be convicted easily but it amazes me how so many people summarily dismiss and laugh off the notion of conspiracy whether it be regarding terrorist attacks, bombings, wars, etc.

do people not realize that hatching and executing conspiracies (including false flags) is one of the core job duties of intelligence agencies? the CIA is the mother of all such agencies and there are dozens of other foreign agencies who collectively have thousands of personnel and billions of dollars to spend year after year. they aren't sitting idle nor are they spending all day "gathering intelligence".

 
DoubleBottomLine:
these guys seem pretty guilty and dzhokhar will probably be convicted easily but it amazes me how so many people summarily dismiss and laugh off the notion of conspiracy whether it be regarding terrorist attacks, bombings, wars, etc.

do people not realize that hatching and executing conspiracies (including false flags) is one of the core job duties of intelligence agencies? the CIA is the mother of all such agencies and there are dozens of other foreign agencies who collectively have thousands of personnel and billions of dollars to spend year after year. they aren't sitting idle nor are they spending all day "gathering intelligence".

People laugh off conspiracy theories because a lot the time conspiracy theorists are insane. They take any little coincidence or question and expand it to mean the event is a giant CIA/Mossad false flag operation. And the craziness immediately turns away normal people from listening to them. People do not usually shoot police officers for no reason.
 

While I do not necessarily think this was a conspiracy, the speed and militarization of the police was shocking. A major US city was locked down with helicopters, HUMVEE's and armored personal carriers rolling through the street.

And what is this miranda bullshit. Read the guy his fucking rights. He obviously did this, he will most likely get the death penalty, let the idiot have a lawyer. While I could careless if this guy gets mistreated, there is this slow dissolving of due process and innocent until proven guilty.

Just like cops attacking people who record them and government passing more and more surveillance measures.

 
TNA:
While I do not necessarily think this was a conspiracy, the speed and militarization of the police was shocking. A major US city was locked down with helicopters, HUMVEE's and armored personal carriers rolling through the street.

And what is this miranda bullshit. Read the guy his fucking rights. He obviously did this, he will most likely get the death penalty, let the idiot have a lawyer. While I could careless if this guy gets mistreated, there is this slow dissolving of due process and innocent until proven guilty.

Just like cops attacking people who record them and government passing more and more surveillance measures.

Just to point out. The Miranda law as it has evolved through the federal circuit courts doesn't require anyone to be read their rights. Ever. Whether they pull the federal "immediate danger" exception or not. What is requires is that a defendant be read their rights before you can take a statement that will be admissable in court. So, theoretically, I could never give read you your rights and I would be within the law. I just couldn't use anything between your arrest and your trial in court. That's a common misconception because of things like law and order. But the feds used the exception anyways so it doesn't matter whether they did or not.
 
Best Response
AllDay_028:
TNA:
While I do not necessarily think this was a conspiracy, the speed and militarization of the police was shocking. A major US city was locked down with helicopters, HUMVEE's and armored personal carriers rolling through the street.

And what is this miranda bullshit. Read the guy his fucking rights. He obviously did this, he will most likely get the death penalty, let the idiot have a lawyer. While I could careless if this guy gets mistreated, there is this slow dissolving of due process and innocent until proven guilty.

Just like cops attacking people who record them and government passing more and more surveillance measures.

Just to point out. The Miranda law as it has evolved through the federal circuit courts doesn't require anyone to be read their rights. Ever. Whether they pull the federal "immediate danger" exception or not. What is requires is that a defendant be read their rights before you can take a statement that will be admissable in court. So, theoretically, I could never give read you your rights and I would be within the law. I just couldn't use anything between your arrest and your trial in court. That's a common misconception because of things like law and order. But the feds used the exception anyways so it doesn't matter whether they did or not.

In application you are read your rights. Why? Because they want you to confess. And if they don't care whether you confess they would simply read your rights and no ask you anything.

You get arrested >>> you are read your rights. When the police and government need to start splitting hairs and picking apart definitions you know they are up to bullshit.

I'll tell you guys what. I am a lot more afraid of the government and its continual push to limit rights and gain power than I am of a dude with a pressure cooker. Glad they caught these guys, but Boston looked like a military war zone instead of a police presence.

Fascism always comes in the guise of protecting us from something.

 
AllDay_028:
...That's a common misconception because of things like law and order. But the feds used the exception anyways so it doesn't matter whether they did or not.

There is some legitimate concern with whether or not the 'immediate public danger' exception could hold up to scrutiny in court.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/company/trilantic-north-america>TNA</a></span>:
While I do not necessarily think this was a conspiracy, the speed and militarization of the police was shocking. A major US city was locked down with helicopters, HUMVEE's and armored personal carriers rolling through the street.

And what is this miranda bullshit. Read the guy his fucking rights. He obviously did this, he will most likely get the death penalty, let the idiot have a lawyer. While I could careless if this guy gets mistreated, there is this slow dissolving of due process and innocent until proven guilty.

Just like cops attacking people who record them and government passing more and more surveillance measures.

Gospel.

"Come at me, bro"- José de Palafox y Melci
 

I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate, everyone keeps mentioning that they shot and threw grenades at the cops. However there is no video evidence of this, so we all believe this on hearsay from the news. All the videos shown of the scene were dark and didn't prove shit. same goes for the audio of the exchange of gun fire, no proof of anything other than shots were fired. This is 2013, everyone has a camera phone, yet no clear video was taken? I find this very peculiar.

However I am not trying to argue whether they are guilty or not, just strictly speaking on the facts or lack thereof presented in the news.

I live in Boston

"Do whatever it takes to keep the legend of Wall Street as it was truly intended live on. When you think back on investment banking of the early 21st century, remember the heat—remember the passion. But mostly, remember the titans. " - LSO
 
GoodBread:
Soul_Reaper:
This is 2013, everyone has a camera phone, yet no clear video was taken? I find this very peculiar.
Next time a firelight breaks out in the middle of the night outside my place, I'll make sure I take a clear shot of the guys popping caps and throwing grenades with my iPhone.

I'm just saying people are voyeur by nature, the entire night into daytime and no homevideo that actually shows something substiantial, cmon

"Do whatever it takes to keep the legend of Wall Street as it was truly intended live on. When you think back on investment banking of the early 21st century, remember the heat—remember the passion. But mostly, remember the titans. " - LSO
 
Soul_Reaper:
I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate, everyone keeps mentioning that they shot and threw grenades at the cops. However there is no video evidence of this, so we all believe this on hearsay from the news. All the videos shown of the scene were dark and didn't prove shit. same goes for the audio of the exchange of gun fire, no proof of anything other than shots were fired. This is 2013, everyone has a camera phone, yet no clear video was taken? I find this very peculiar.

However I am not trying to argue whether they are guilty or not, just strictly speaking on the facts or lack thereof presented in the news.

I live in Boston

Just as a rebuttal...so this isn't aimed at you...this is where conspiracy theories start to get absurd. It goes from being a CIA operation, to a CIA operation that included a private security company, to a CIA operation that included a private security company plus a few Joe Nobodys, to a CIA operation that included a private security company plus a few Joe Nobodys and then the news was also in on it, etc.

The depth to which something like this or the JFK assassination would have to be planned is so absurdly complex I don't even believe our 'government' would be capable of pulling it off.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

I love what Mark Levin said yesterday, and I'm brutally paraphrasing: "You've got these damn fools that keep saying that Miranda Rights are a Constitutional demand. Nonsense! The Miranda case didn't occur until 1966. Are you telling me that all cases in the 180 years prior were illegitimate?!" He did go on to say that he supports having his "rights" read so that it didn't compromise the case legally.

Point is, liberals and Ron Paul people ("civil libertarians") always seem to conflate Supreme Court decisions with what is, ya know, actually written in the Constitution.

 

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"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

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