Execution traders
Hello everyone,
I was hoping that someone in the industry or with more knowledge about it that I, could discuss the role of execution traders. Would it be a good position to take out of college at a hedge fund? I am interested in pursuing a position I will be interviewing for as a junior trader, but am worried by what I've read as execution traders essentially being support roles that are not very active in FO decisions or research. As the fund is quite small, I would be hoping that I could also learn and eventually take on more of an analyst role or a pure trading role.
I initially think this would be a great role working at a hedge fund out of college and could take CFA® and eventually go to get MBA or MSF. Any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
bump
curious as well
What kind of shop are you interviewing with? Most TA/Jr trading positions are not for execution trader roles.
Execution traders are certainly FO, but they are not PMs and generally don't make decisions with portfolio strategy.
link the job description execution trader can mean a few things.
if it's a small fund that seems stable, unless the people running things are total douchebags, i would definitely go for it, take on as much responsibility as you can, and see if you can grow into something else. i'm making the assumption that since it's a smaller fund, they won't be trading as much so you will be able to take on other responsibilities and have a closer relationship with more senior personnel.
My sentiments as well.
To OP: I wouldn't worry so much about being pigeonholed since it's a smaller shop, meaning less hierarchical. Although you'd be a trader, you wouldn't be limited to just execution. I'm sure at the morning meetings you'd be able to contribute more so to stock picking/investing ideas, etc.
Also, I wouldn't go into this thinking that you're gung ho about research only. Coming right out of college with limited exposure to working, you stil have a couple of years of self discovery through working. You may actually change your mind once you get a couple years under your belt. Congrats on this!
Thanks! And yes I've really thought about that. While I feel that I do like research a lot, working my way into becoming a trader would be really exciting as well. My main objective is to have some sort of evolution of my role into one of the idea/decision contributors and not just into a purely execution trader. However, given all of the logical advice regarding the size of the shop, I'm sure that I will be given the opportunity to grow my responsibilities over time.
It is (from what I've gained) a small Long/short equity fund with approx 200mm AUM that invests primarily in HC sector. it is called a jr trader position, however the description is ; executing trades and some BO duties, as well as making sure that the PM is aware of any important news regarding names they are interested in.
It seems like a stable family fund (been around since 1998 I believe), and I think so as well (seems hard to think of how many trades, regardless of volume of those trades, that a shop this small could be making).
I am interested in the role, but really hope to do some research of my own (and hopefully pose some ideas and suggestions to PM), and then eventually become more of a research analyst full time.
Thanks
Thanks for all the feedback. Are many of the execution trading/trading skill sets relevant to fundamental analysis and research (what I'm most interested in)? I'm just worried about pigeon holing myself right out of college into a trading role when my real passion is research.
Thanks SirTradesAlot, that is what I'm hoping to do. While I am more interested in research, I'm not opposed to trading at all; the whole investing/buy side is more exciting to me, even though writing sell side reports would be interesting to me in the research aspect.
Hopefully I'll be given the opportunity to dive into a role at the firm and really determine my own responsibilities outside of my core duties for the job which, while is a trading role, a lot of the aspects are very BO and supportive.
I would be careful about taking this. Generally the way this works is there is a PM or two and a bunch of research guys beneath him, and there are traders. The research guys generally come from research, either on the sell side or buy side at other shops. The research / PM guys talk about which stocks they want to buy or sell, then after they have come to a decision they go to the traders to talk about actually positioning themselves in that security. Generally the traders have little if any input on which securities are actually purchases or sold.
Just know that the role they are hiring you for has nothing to do with research, and few transferrable skills to research. Your only chance in going this route is if the people you work with decide to let you serve in a more research intensive role. If you've got the vibe from your discussions with them that a move like this is viable, go for it, but it sounds like a big risk to me.
Again, I don't think it's necessarily a big risk since he is so young. The OP is coming right out of college meaning that he is not 35 and facing the prospect of being "branded" in a bad way to the point of being trapped if he decides two years later to transition over.
Thanks MFFL, always good to hear both sides. I think that I would be given some leeway in my position, given that there are so few people at this shop. From what shady research I've been able to find, there's only a few analysts and one PM, as well as possibly one other trader. As I said above, fund size is approx 200mm; so I'm not sure how much trading they will be doing on any given day (not familiar with their strategy), however 200mm doesn't seem to be enough to be making too many trades, that often. But what the hell do I know? Just judging off it's size in comparison to industry averages.
Straight out of College, it's a legit job! We have execution traders on my desk (but I'm no in HF) but they're all veterans of IB.
You get a lot of exposure to PM and analysts, so it would be a good way of learning the industry. Is it a well known shop?
Again, I second this for OP's sake so he won't have any doubts. It's not only a legit job fresh out of college, it's a damn good job for someone period.
It is pretty much completely unknown, have been doing my own research and can't find anything really. I am interviewing with the PM this week and plan on asking a ton of questions (mainly due to the fact that I know nothing about them), and I am also interested in learning more about the progression of the role.
I have been a buy side "execution trader" for the past two years. I will tell you to definitely go for it. At first it will seem minimal and easy, but once you earn the respect of senior traders, the world is your oyster. Every day you will be talking to sell side traders and salesmen, analyst, cold callers, Factset reps, Bloomberg reps, etc. There is no better way to get your name out there than to be a buy side trader, because everyone wants to work with you. You develop a very unique skill that a lot of people in the investment management space will never learn. I would advise you to push for fixed income, interest rates, commodities, derivatives, because they are much more specialized. Any Joe Shmoe can sit at home and trade equities over Etrade or Schwab, so there is not a lot of value added. The PM gets the credit because they chose the name, regardless of where you buy the stock. There is no room for negotiation in equities because it is a listed security with a hard bid/ask spread. I mainly trade fixed income, where there is always room for negotiation. Eg; broker puts up on BBG " I own and offer 2MM C 5 2/1/17 +150 5 yr" That means they're offering 2 million CitiGroup Bonds maturing in 2017 at a yield of +150 to the 5 yr Treasury. If that were an equity, you would have to buy it there. In fixed income you can "bid" him back where you would buy the bonds...say at a +155. You go to your boss and tell him you BOT these not at a +150, but a +155.....value added.
Not to mention the best part of being a buy side trader......brokers. Multiple times a week you will be taken out by brokers/ salesmen who party for a living. Fancy steakhouse dinners, gentleman's clubs, rooftop lounges, bottle service....everything....if they like you. I have been out with 2 salesmen from a BB and 2 traders from my firm, where we have racked up $2,000-3,000 tabs in one night. The most important factor in being a buyside trader is having a personality, because you are on the phone a lot.
Long-winded answer but....take the job if you get it, because it will expose you to almost every part of the industry.
But this guy is looking at equities I believe. I don't think he's going into a shop that does FI or some other negotiable space like derivs unless they do equity derivs. What if you're an execution trader in pure equities? I'd like to know this myself as well. Also, can't an equity trader negotiate via cross-trading with another buyside shop?
Multiple times a MONTH, not a week.....Wall Street has cut back a little bit
Also, I don't think it's easy to trade an illiquid stock that only trades say 100K shares a day and your PM wants you to buy 500K shares. Now you have to really look around and perhaps cross-trade.
Yes, I see know that he is going into a long/short shop, I missed that the first time. I agree with you TraderDaily, there is definitely an art-form to trading illiquid stocks. You can cross trade and use dark pools for illiquid stocks, but sometimes there just aren't people buying/selling. A lot of hedge funds do trade in more illiquid names, because the general public doesn't know as much about them. I think that computers/algos have really hurt what a buy side equity trader does. Instead of working an order all day on your level 2 platform, you type in a couple of parameters and the computer does the rest. It's just not as glamarous as it used to be back in the 80's and 90's. Don't get me wrong, an equity buy side trade is still a great position to be in, and has its perks.
OK. I see. I'm familiar with routers, algos, etc. Is it easy to switch from equities to corporate bond trader since they both are kinda in the same category?
Could you talk about the perks of a buyside equity trader?
Anyone have any insight into the interview process? From what I've seen online, there are not many guidelines for entry level Jr. Trading positions. Don't think I'll be expected to know many techs or do a case study since it is a "No exp. needed" position.
I plan on talking about my other experiences obviously and my passion for investing; trade some stocks of my own when I have the money, have a mock portfolio, and have done very well in class mock portfolio competitions. Also have my own "strategy" for trading that I've always wanted to try out (I never have enough money for these kinds of things). Also want to assert my plans on obtaining CFA and doing MBA or MSF at some point.
Is there anything that I am missing which would be of vital importance? My first round is a phone interview some time this week.
Thanks again!
Also, this first round interview is with the PM; if that changes anything.
Great. Good luck. It can't get better than interviewing with the top person.
bump, any interview advice would be very much appreciated!
Hey
I used to work as an equity execution trader on the sell side at a MM bank. Fire away any questions you may have.
Had a great time trading away as a starting place, but it became sort of dull after a while since it came down to scalable strategies. Moved into having my own book (crossing with buy side execution traders and facility trading with sales) after showing that I had something between my ears. Kind of cool job, since you could leave 20-30 min after closing bell.
However, I had volume (number of trades) on my side compared to a HF trader to make time pass.
Perhaps you could help the OP with the interview question he had. I'm interested in hearing this as well.
Also, could you talk about your experience with building relationships to have successful cross trades with buyside traders. I'm guessing this part wasn't easy in terms of building friendships with other traders at other firms so they would trade with you.
Sure.
The interviewing questions were pretty straight forward (since I had worked under the MD part time), just how well I could handle stress, my take on the market, pairs I'd like to trade (ie two companies in the same sector, sell one and buy the other), what my plans for the future were and how I would go about to secure more clients. Pretty relaxed, but that came from the fact that I had worked with him before.
The last part is interconnected with how I went along building a relationship with buy side. I went to dinners with sales guys and PMs, just so they could place a face with my voice/chat musings. The PMs would bring one or two traders the next time just so we would be comfortable and see if we got along (not too different than animals in heat when I think of it, haha). Over time, that built into crossing small orders (vol. of 10k to 20k) to the rather large ones (200k to 2mm+ shares).
Just getting the traders to understand that he'll add value by not moving the price through crossing, is beneficial for both parties. I'll arrange a block to take the other side, he'll look like a champ for not impacting the price and other (potential) clients would see that we are the go to place for crossing and block trading (generate commission)
Anything else you want me to shed some light on?
I'm just looking for any insight into what would be expected in an interview for a jr trader at a small HF. If you have any insights or thoughts about it, I'd love to hear them.
To the OP: I would suggest that you read Barron's before your interview. Get the most recent copy of Barron's and read it. Typically, they have great articles that will get you up to speed so you can develop an opinion on the stock market. In your interview, it is likely they will ask you something about the market and you can use Barron's as a means of having an opinion in your interview.
I would also know something about the nat gas issue, how cheap gas is a driver for petrochem manufacturing, plastics, etc. and the oil/gas boom in the US in general including the Keystone pipeline, cheap Canadian crude oil, Bakken crude oil, refiners, etc.
Oh and I'd also know about the impending 2.3 percent tax on medical device manufacturers (Affordable Health Care Act) since they focus on health care stocks.
Thanks TD
No problem. Let us know how it goes.
I would delve a little deeper into what the shop does where you are interviewing. Long/short might imply some knowledge of hedging, pairs trades and maybe some options strategies. Having some rudimentary understanding of market structure ie dark pools vs NYSE etc and liquidity pools would be advantageous.
While this has been covered to some extent already: there is no downside to this direction out of school. However, if you are there for some time (several years) keep in mind what a recruiter told me recently: trading is hard to get into...and hard to get out of.
If you want something to read after you get started: The Hour Between Dog and Wolf, by Coates. can help with an understanding of how you respond under stress and why. This is specifically related to traders. I would also recommend The Daily Trading Coach by Steenbarger. This book can help you if you want a deeper understanding of psychology specific challenges and exercises of trading.
In my opinion, these should be required reading for all new traders.
Thanks, always happy to have a few more books for my list.
Feel free to ask away
How did you ultimately get other traders comfortable with giving you the larger block trades vs. some other trader with similar ability to do a cross or simply execute the same trade?
I had a very good salesteam that could work up a block on short notice (why we started out with small blocks). They knew what their clients wanted and shared that knowledge with me. Always let your sales force know what you're trading.
I'm living the good life. Crossing, trading and just do what I want to do in the markets. Pay is godd, hours even better and weekends are off.
What do you do now?
No move for me. I'm out the moment I get my walk away number.
Execution Only Traders? (Originally Posted: 12/18/2009)
What is your opinion of execution only traders / sales-traders that work in an agency shop like ITG / Knight Capital? Prestige? What are the exit opportunities like? How often do they move to the buy-side? How does this experience look when applying to Business school? Thanks.
You are given orders and you must obey. It's a dead end.
Consider a CFA over Business school. If you ever want to manage money - you will need this.
What if I want to be a market-maker or prop trader (not Investment Management), an eventually a HF manager? Should I do both (CFA + B-school)?
I have a 3.5 from a top-25 school if that means anything. Graduated in 2008.
You dont need a CFA to manage money. I have worked with many people who manage or managed money and only 1 had a CFA.
CFA Cant hurt.. but bschool is not need if your good at what you do...why dont you apply first see if u get in and just go from there?
I was planning to get the CFA first. I only have 1.5 years of experience so I am not ready for B-School yet (at least not a top-10 one)
I am studying for serious 7 licence but I can not find any firm to sponser me for the exam , any idea how to go about this ? Regards
Do you have any cash? I have a series7 that I don't need. You can have it. PM me...I know where you can start.
Execution Trader (Originally Posted: 03/22/2014)
Just wondering if anyone knows anything about buy-side trading, for example, execution trading for a hedge fund or pension plan. It's trading in cash equities, so I'd assume it's mostly electronic execution. I did a bit of digging on this forum, but would still like to ask for your opinion on this.
A few quick questions: Do these execution traders have p&l responsibilities? Their job is to execute trades for PMs, but how much discretion is involved? Would you take a job as execution trader at a fund? Why or why not? What's the best part of being an execution trader?
Thanks everyone for your input. It'd be great if you could also share personal experiences and what's it actually like on the job.
I speak to buy-side traders everyday so my take is: - P&L depends on the fund. Some will give the thumbs up for letting traders run some small part of the fund on short term trading. Others are strict DMA and allocating orders to sell-side as payment for research reports.
- Funds have benchmarks as how an order was executed. Benchmarks are being set as to how big an order is and the security in question. Vwap, IS, relative to index, etc are all common benchmarks. - Can't really comment on if I would make a switch.
In my market:
No, none and no. But some execution traders do make the step to junior PM at some point.
What's the difference between a Trader and an Execution Trader? (Originally Posted: 09/16/2014)
From what I've gathered by looking at two descriptions by the same company what I can make out is that Traders are more math and quantitative focused and Execution Traders are more finance and interpersonal focused.
Sorry for the basic question but I didn't see an answer when I searched.
'Trader' means screen trader, who look mainly at computer screens for their trading. 'Execution trader' mostly does broker trading(talking with brokers in the pit and trade large sizes).
To give you an example, an execution trader would be like that big guy from Wall Street that Gekko says is a killer.
A trader is the guys that are watching the charts and fundamentals and trading in and out of positions to make money. I can't think of a movie example off the top of my head.
threads like this should be removed immediately
Hes got a name pal
OLLIE the terminator!
"Trader" is a broad general term for someone who trades. Could be a prop trader, execution trader, sales trader, etc.
An execution trader reports to a portfolio manager and executes his/her wishes, if this means a new position for a fund, a rebalance, selling to raise cash to handle disbursements, and so forth.
Traders can mean anything and is a broad term for someone who engages in the buying/selling or securities/commodities/goods/currency.
Execution traders, are a more specific type of trader, who do not trade their own positions but instead execute the entry/exit of positions for someone else (portfolio manager). For example a PM might say that they want to get long 50,000 contracts of corn at a certain level. One can't (or shouldn't) just drop your order in since it'll invariably move the market. Instead an execution trader will watch the market and utilize different avenues or algorithms to get the trade filled.
What makes a good execution trader (Originally Posted: 07/17/2015)
Obviously getting the best price and fills are important. Specifically what would be the tactics that make an effective buy side execution trader in equities/ I have heard there are more skills to demonstrate in FI and derivatives. I just equities what would be things to study for an interview to stand out? Also what would be the most important part in discretionary and more strategy based?
lol @ thinking you'll need any skill set in being an exceution monkey
Your ability to leave your brain at home and EXECUTE what you mast... sorry boss tells you to do without ever having any input.
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