Exploding Offer Dilemma

Hey guys. I'm currently a Junior and in a situation where I'm facing an exploding deadline from a great MM firm (think HL, HW, Baird, Blair) in a regional office. However, I have a lot of interviews in a few weeks for OCR with lots of great places (a few EB's like Evercore and Rothschild and a lot of other solid firms like RBC and Jefferies), but the interviews occur after my offer deadline. Ultimately, I would want to go into MM PE, and I think the place I got an offer at would be great preparation for that. Additionally, I love the people I met with. The biggest deal-breaker is probably the location.

If you guys were in my shoes, what do you think you would do? I wonder if I'm in a situation where a bird in hand is greater than 2 in the bush. Problem is, I have a lot more than 2 in the bush.

I appreciate any advice I could get!

 

Any chance you can expedite the processes at the other places? To be perfectly honest with you in your scenario (if you can't expedite any processes) it depends on how confident you are on a) converting an offer and b) how sure you are you'll prefer another offer given you love the people here and believe it will get you to MM PE as you want.

If I were you, I would (in order):

1) Try to expedite the process with other firms 2) Accept the offer, work for the summer but keep in touch with the other banks and recruit elsewhere FT if you want to - this could be the best option because you could actually try out this bank. 3) If you're very risk-averse and aren't confident about converting interviews to an offer at a better bank, but you really want to go elsewhere, consider accepting, interviewing and reneging if necessary.

 

There is no issue here. You take the offer at the MM bank. Then interview for the other companies and if you get anything better you just drop the first offer you had.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 
cruel3a:

There is no issue here. You take the offer at the MM bank. Then interview for the other companies and if you get anything better you just drop the first offer you had.

I second this opinion.

This won't go over well; however, it's your life and your career, so focus on what is best for YOU. I would recommend working at the most prestigious firm possible as an analyst, as that will open up more opportunities for you. You might not realize this now, but the first few years of your career will have a huge impact on where you will be able to go over the next 10+ years.

 

Also...if you choose to renege, you can always cite "family reasons," i.e., your girlfriend or fiancé got a great offer in [insert city here, assuming its a different city]. I've seen a number of people use this line; and even if your renege pisses people off, it's ultimately hard to really criticize people who make decisions based on what is best for their family.

 

First thing you should look to do is extend your deadline for the MM offer. If you can't, then take it. 100% certainty is always the best option. If you can extend the offer deadline feel free to interview at the EBs, where you can perform under little pressure. Best of luck, hope this helps!

 

Just say you want interview experiences so you can polish all of your quirks for future interviews and, because your school is so big on "not disrespecting the man", tell them you wanted to take it to avoid declining and making your school look bad in the event that too many students decline due to exploding offers elsewhere.

I second the sentiments above. Definitely try and push the deadline back. If that is not at all possible, you take it and keep interviewing. I was in your situatiom last year but for FT Recruiting. I had a top MM IBD postion (Jefferies, HL, WF), decided to take it, leveraged my cards and am now at a top BB (GS/JPM/MS). My nontarget school is very big on not reneging as it "hurts recruiting" but the firm I reneged still visits campus (took 2 kids this year), my current firm now recruits more heavily due to a strong track record of analysts in the past 10 years, and I get emails to talk on campus due to being at a great firm. In the end, if you get the best offer you can get, it works great for everyone. Youre only doing yourself and the firm you currently have an offer with injustice if you take the job and ultimately regret not gauging "better opportunities" (subjective due to what you want, ie the culture which you seem to like a lot at your firm).

Good luck!

 

Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I think I'm in a position where I can't ethically bring myself to reneging. I know it might put me in a better situation, but I just can't see myself doing that.

Plus, I still think this would be a great place to work for long-term prospects. This particular firm is very big on helping people place into PE (if that gives anything away), and if that's where I ultimately want to end up, then I am not sure if being at another place would be that much better for me. Sure, I will be throwing out any possibility of being at a KKR or Apollo type of place (which is a long shot anyways), but at least I will be in great shape as far as middle market PE goes. In your opinion, do you think having an opportunity to work at an Evercore or Rothschild will be worth reneging, even though the place I have the offer at would still put me in great shape for PE?

 

I think that's the right attitude to have on it. Plus, switching firms from SA to FT is very doable with the right networking given you'll be at a top MM doing banking over the summer. I'm speaking from experience on that one. If this was for FT, I'd definitely agree with everyone else saying to renege but I don't know if it's worth it for SA. Just my take though...

Definitely a difficult situation, so I very much sympathize

 

Just a clarification. This is not an ethic issue. There is nothing not ethic in taking your best option. Investment banks do not think about ethic when they fire people and HW knows that it is part of the game to lose people to GS, JPM and MS. You need to take the best decisione for you and not overthinking about ethic or school. As long as you end up in a good shop, your school will be there asking for your help to place more people. You have the power, not the school.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

If my school finds out I renege, I lose all of my on-campus recruiting privileges and could jeopardize both offers (they are extremely strict on this, and I've heard horror stories). Maybe my school is just trying to scare me, but I really don't want to fuck myself over.

Additionally, I don't have any interviews with GS, JPM, or MS. I have some with 2 EBs (which I think will be a long shot, to be honest, since they take maybe 1 or 2 people from my school a year), a few other firms like Jefferies and RBC, and other solid boutiques/middle markets. If I don't get one of the EBs, do you think it would be worth it to take a Jefferies or RBC over the firm I have an offer from?

Additionally, if I keep in contact with them, maybe I could try and recruit full-time. Sorry for disagreeing, but I have heard bad stories at my school and really don't want to screw myself over. Oh, and Merry Christmas.

 

Reneging on a SA offer is not worth it if your school has penalized others in the past.

Take your current offer and focus on 1) getting a return offer and 2) networking for full time interviews. I can tell you from personal experience that I did much better in full time recruiting, both in quantity and quality.

If you are plugged in and proactive you will be fine for FT should you choose to interview. One caveat though as you mentioned Evercore, they were very aggressive this past season and had a full incoming analyst class secured by the end of August. Most firms however will have spots.

 

Agree with the last post. Also, since this is US centric, if you are considering to apply for MBA, mid market shop such as HW have strong track record in helping people to get in to HWS shools

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

Thanks again for your input. I can honestly say I have never had to make a tougher decision. At the end of the day, I just don't want to go through my life regretting my choice to completely give up the opportunity to have summered at an EB or a place like Jefferies. That said, I don't want to go through my life regretting the opportunity to work at a middle market sell-side M&A machine.

I think I am leaning towards accepting the offer, but I need to do a lot of thinking. Really, it is a good problem to have, and I should be happy to have an offer. It's just a matter of whether I think it's worth it to roll the dice.

 

Take the MM offer. Work and network your tail off during the summer, get the return offer, and then shop it around. A return offer at any of the MM shops you mentioned will get you looks at the tier above. I know there's a lot out there that makes it seems like SA firm = FT firm or you're out of luck...but it's not difficult to switch firms after the summer stint. Lastly, regarding location, if it's Minneapolis and HL or HW then you'll be fine (although probably not preferred), headhunters and buyside firms are used to seeing great analysts come out of there. If it's Milwaukee and Baird, I'm not as familiar with how successful they've been with converting to the buyside but I'd personally push for their Chicago office.

 

I would not personally reneg on a SA offer given there is more downside than upside in this case. First of all you are a junior and still have a year of recruiting left, if you get banned from OCR and don't convert your internship to FT at the place you reneg your current offer for, you are screwed. There is also the chance this MM will raise hell and pull recruiting at your school if this sorta thing has happened in the past, you would be doubly screwed. I would accept your current offer if you cannot expedite interviews / ask for more time (your school should have a policy for how long you have to decide, I would cite that policy to MM and ask for additional time). Do a good job this summer, get the FT offer, and do accelerated interviewing with other banks and you will be in a great position.

 

Before you listen to the posters on this board telling you to accept the offer and renege for something better, you should take a look at the "reneging-on-an-already-accepted-internship-offer" thread (I can't post links but you can just Google it).

It appears kids have screwed themselves over pretty hard for reneging on both non-OCR and OCR summer analyst roles, ultimately ending up with nothing other than a tainted reputation and a worse internship. I have gotten anecdotes on both sides of the fence and its apparent that the downside far outweighs the upside in reneging an SA offer. I am in the same position as you and have abandoned the thought of reneging.

Personally, I would accept the MM offer and go through accelerated FT recruiting in August. Since you are already on these other banks' radars, you shouldn't have any problem landing accelerated interviews. In the worse case scenario, you have already set a good floor for yourself with a MM IBD position which sets you up well for your long-term goal.

 
AspiringAnalyst12:

Before you listen to the posters on this board telling you to accept the offer and renege for something better, you should take a look at the "reneging-on-an-already-accepted-internship-offer" thread (I can't post links but you can just Google it).

It appears kids have screwed themselves over pretty hard for reneging on both non-OCR and OCR summer analyst roles, ultimately ending up with nothing other than a tainted reputation and a worse internship. I have gotten anecdotes on both sides of the fence and its apparent that the downside far outweighs the upside in reneging an SA offer. I am in the same position as you and have abandoned the thought of reneging.

Personally, I would accept the MM offer and go through accelerated FT recruiting in August. Since you are already on these other banks' radars, you shouldn't have any problem landing accelerated interviews. In the worse case scenario, you have already set a good floor for yourself with a MM IBD position which sets you up well for your long-term goal.

Just to clarify, I reneged an internship offer at a MM bank and took a Tier 1 bank offer and now I am an analyst there. Both were non-OCR and in Europe.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 
cruel3a:
AspiringAnalyst12:

Before you listen to the posters on this board telling you to accept the offer and renege for something better, you should take a look at the "reneging-on-an-already-accepted-internship-offer" thread (I can't post links but you can just Google it).

It appears kids have screwed themselves over pretty hard for reneging on both non-OCR and OCR summer analyst roles, ultimately ending up with nothing other than a tainted reputation and a worse internship. I have gotten anecdotes on both sides of the fence and its apparent that the downside far outweighs the upside in reneging an SA offer. I am in the same position as you and have abandoned the thought of reneging.

Personally, I would accept the MM offer and go through accelerated FT recruiting in August. Since you are already on these other banks' radars, you shouldn't have any problem landing accelerated interviews. In the worse case scenario, you have already set a good floor for yourself with a MM IBD position which sets you up well for your long-term goal.

Just to clarify, I reneged an internship offer at a MM bank and took a Tier 1 bank offer and now I am an analyst there. Both were non-OCR and in Europe.

There are definitely multiple sides, I personally know someone who reneged on an internship offer junior year and then reneged on a FT offer during senior year recruiting and nothing was ever relayed to career services. I also know of someone who reneged on a FT offer and had that bank pull recruiting from his school. OP has a solid MM offer in hand which he can leverage to a FT offer and accelerated interviews....his SA experience will be strong enough to land BB interviews if he has a solid resume. In this case the potential upside is just not worth the risk of being banned from OCR coupled with not converting the SA to FT. If this was for FT you could make a strong case for reneging but there is much more risk for SA.

 

I do agree. In Europe, there is no way they would stop recruiting from a given university or you would be black listed from any list (bank or university) so it would be risk-free. I understand that in the US it is different so I do agree he should go the safer way in this case.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

Keep in mind that you're a junior looking for a SA role. I don't know about the dynamics at your school, but at mine there are plenty of people that shift around from MM to BB/EB when it comes to full-time recruiting. As long as you are a top performer at the MM with solid grades and a good resume, you likely will be able to move to a more preferred bank for full time. For the 3 or so months that your internship will be, its not worth it renege for a different bank, and possibly get cut off from OCR or even start cultivating a bad reputation at this MM firm - the community is very small and you don't want your first impression to be as a liar. Thats just my 2 cents worth.

 

Thanks for the reply. I think risk will be the better opportunity for me because this is something I want to do in the long-run. I am from a non-target where not a lot of people receive BB offers.

My only concern is that even if I do take the risk and try to ask for an extension there is no guarantee for me that I will receive an offer from the other BB. I still have to do the second round interview. I know it is in my hand to convert the offer but at the same time you never know.

 

Generally it doesn't hurt to ask for an extension if you're polite about it. i.e. Reiterate that you're appreciative and excited about the opportunity in-hand and explain that you are currently in the middle of a process with another firm and that you're just hoping to finish the process so you can make a well-informed decision. Ask if it would be alright to extend it by X amount of time but note that you understand if not

I'm sure this approach has backfired on people, and in the worst case, I can imagine someone rescinding an offer, but I honestly don't think that's a reasonable risk to consider. If an employer resorts to those kinds of tactics, it's probably not a place you want to work anyhow

Most likely, they'll just say yes or no and that's ok

 

Is it possible that they give me extension but rescind it a day or two later??? that is my biggest fair. that they might give me an extension but then a day or two later they rescind it.

I have no other offer on the table nor have any superdays scheduled. I know it is getting late in the interview process that is why I am not willing to take any risk with this offer.

 

Accept the offer and renege if you get the risk job. People do it all the time. If you renege only a couple of weeks after you accept, they still have plenty of time to find another candidate. This will also help you relax in the risk interview, because you know you have an offer in hand no matter what. I wouldn’t worry about the consequences of reneging since you’re still young and the team that interviewed you will probably forget you exist after a year or two

Array
 

Some things to consider....

Moving to Tokyo- do you speak the language? You're probably going to have to assimilate to their culture to fit in meaning adopt all of their cultural ways and forget your own. I went to USC from Texas and could not stand the culture. I'm a Texas boy at heart. So something to consider....the culture. Also, do you know anyone there? What if you hate the job? Then your stuck in Tokyo where you might not know anyone with a job you hate. That would suck.

Pray about it. What does god want you to do, what is your calling?

If you want to go back to the states in the future it seems like you probably want to stay in states, if that's where your heart is. Once you get over there, how will you network with people for jobs back in the states? How will you interview for jobs in the states? Fly over to NY or wherever and then back? No way...You'd probably have to quit your job when you are ready to come home and then just be unemployed and then find a job. That wouldn't be good.

S&T or Research- Sales= constantly calling people all day long. Literally, 100 calls a day. Can you handle that? Day in and day out? I couldn't. Trading is an interest of mine. So I think that would be cool. I've also been trying to get into research for awhile but have had no luck. What a great job! Researching economics events and companies. You would get paid to think! That's what I love. Sales=paid to dial the phone and push people to sell products. Trading=probably a good job in my opinion. Who are you as a person. A thinker? Then go research. Extremely outgoing? Then sales. Don't fool yourself either. Cold calling sucks. I convinced myself I was outgoing and it has not served me well. I was in a frat and have friends like most people, but I am not a salesman/cold caller, I hated it. Trading= your in the markets, depending on the products. If youre going to work at a BB, you might be a salestrader which is a lot of dialing although it has aspects of being in the market. BB Trader? Your buying and selling on behalf of the company using your knowledge/dealflow. It takes years to get to this point.

Think about what would make you happy. Cold calling (sales), reading/writing (research), markets (trading).

Where are you from? Is money what you are going after? What do you want from life? What gifts has god granted you, and how do you plan to use them?

 
ColdCallCapt:
Sales= constantly calling people all day long. Literally, 100 calls a day. Can you handle that? Day in and day out? Sales=paid to dial the phone and push people to sell products. Trading=probably a good job in my opinion. Who are you as a person. A thinker? Then go research. Extremely outgoing? Then sales. Don't fool yourself either. Cold calling sucks. I convinced myself I was outgoing and it has not served me well. I was in a frat and have friends like most people, but I am not a salesman/cold caller, I hated it.

You clearly have no idea what someone working in sales at a bulge bracket does, so why even bother posting?

 

I worked at Merrill and talked to a lot of the traders in the industry. I also worked at Advisors Asset Management. Traders, sales traders, and sales guys sat 15 feet from me. Many had worked at BB and transferred over. I also spent a lot of time with guy who worked at AAM closing a deal who worked at BNP Parabas, Fannie Mae, and other BB in S&T roles at the trader/director role. I have his number in my phone and talked to him periodically at work.

More importantly I was in sales at Merrill (BB) and Advisors Asset Management which is a boutique but many of the workers came from BB. So I don't know where you are coming from.

I've been in your position and networked with people at BB and learned how it all works, so I do know.

Good luck to you son. My advice to you, show and have some respect for people. I'm trying to help you out. You aren't going to get anywhere with the way you talk to people.

Good luck.

 
ColdCallCapt:

More importantly I was in sales at Merrill (BB) and Advisors Asset Management which is a boutique but many of the workers came from BB.

You clearly worked in PWM which is not at all the same as institutional sales and not relevant to anything being asked. You're not going to be cold calling 100s of people in an institutional role. Not even close. For a good description of the job see here: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/institutional-sales-description
 

Thanks for that thorough insight @ColdCallCapt. Sorry you didn't like USC, (I actually transferred from there to a target in NY) Yeah the things you've mentioned are all very important to consider. Well to give you a bit of a background, I have lived & worked (different industry but sales role) in Japan prior coming to NY so I'm very familiar with the culture and the people. I don't think that would necessarily be the problem.

The reason I left Japan initially was because I felt stagnant, but I think if I work in banking it would be different, in terms of fast-paced environment, smart ppl etc.. I've been having a tough time finding a FO job in NY since I graduated in May, I started to think I'm not a good fit for US working culture.

I have done internships in the past on the trading floor and I don't really mind the work, my floor salespeople weren't cold calling all that much, I am not overly outgoing (in US standards, that's why I don't think I can do sales in US) but I think I can handle the work in Japan. I'd love to do research, and I'm hoping this one goes through but it's cutting it really close to my departure date.

I have prayed, prayed, prayed man but GOD is not giving me an answer that's why I'm pondering like this...

 

OP - a few things

1) Japan - is an extremely different environment. Since it's S&T,you may not necessarily speak Japanese (whereas in IB it's a must), but my guess is you probably do. If you don't, you'll find living there tough. The people are nice and trains/subways have English. But the large majority of the population do not speak it. So basic things like going to a restaurant, looking for directions, trying to describe a haircut style... from a long-term perspective, it can get irritating.

Also work culture is very different. What may fly in US may not in Japan. Asian work culture is not for everyone (speaking as an Asian who has experienced it). If you've lived in US all your life, even if you are Japanese or Asian descent, it will still be a shock.

EDIT: Just noticed you got in a post before my response about your familiarity with Japan. So ok, #1 doesn't apply as much to you.

2) Transitioning back to US from Japan - not sure about S&T, a markets role might be a bit more flexible. But I will say from an IB perspective, Japan is a very insulated market. I think you'll find it difficult to transition back after a few yrs exp without going through an MBA. If you plan on getting your MBA, then this could be a good opportunity to live and experience life in a different country and have some global experience to differentiate yourself. Otherwise, besides just the regional skill set difference, there's also a logistical difficulty of trying to interview with US firms while being on Japan timezone, or even convincing US firms to consider a candidate that's not on ground and can come into the office for an interview.

3) S&T vs. IB - Lastly, what do you like better? What is more interesting to you? What suits your personal strengths more? Which one allow you to build skill sets that will help you get closer to your LT goals in your career. They are very different, and speaking from experience, it's very difficult to pick one and then try to career switch into the other. (Doable, but difficult, and you waste some time doing so).

If your answers to my raised points are "ultimately I prefer being in the US and IB", then the answer is try to accelerate your interview process with the elite boutique - telling them you have an exploding BB offer will add to your appeal as a candidate.

 

It is relevant to this kids decision. He's deciding on whether going into S&T or other. Long term, what if he decides to go into S&T and ends up as a sales trader? He'd still have to call. What if the place is trying to grow its book? He'd still have to call...

Anyway, sorry I lashed out. But you kids are disrespectful, I'm trying to help this guy out....

I'm deleting my account, I don't appreciate getting crapped on when I am sharing information that is relevant and true.

Best of luck to you guys. May god have mercy on your souls lolol

 

I would go with the VC firm if your long term goal is to do VC. IMO it's the best option to get you to your short term goal as well. Being unpaid sucks but once you land a FT gig its not gonna matter much. I took an unpaid internship my fall semester junior year that was essential to landing my SA position. You can even spin it as showing passion for the industry that you turned down paid positions to work for free and learn as much as you can. This worked well for me in interviews anyway, but I am just a college kid so take it with a grain of salt.

 
Best Response

You know if somebody is on here from that firm they'll probably know who you are right? Also banking is a male dominated industry - lack of females is not unique to that firm, and not always for lack of trying.

The way I see it is what other options do you have? You can complain all you want about how not ideal this offer is, but it's an offer. It's better than nothing. Do you really think if you haven't landed a BB / EB / MM position by this point that you'll be able to even later in the cycle?

 

IB is still IB at the end of the day and SRR is at least a firm that people relevant in finance circles recognize. It also depends on what school you go to and the type of recruiting you experienced beforehand. Coming from a non-target, I'm glad to have gotten experience in IB, despite the fact that my firm's not a BB. If you really want to get into a BB, you could always, at the end of the day, go through FT recruiting next year.

 

If you really think you'll be that miserable don't take it. If you're not taking it because you've convinced yourself it doesn't have the prestige you desire, re-examine your priorities, take a long hard look at yourself and let some other kid have the spot that actually wants it.

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
 

Like other people have said, you need to mask the bank's name when asking things like this. There are many people in IB who read WSO, and it's not that hard to figure out who you are.

Also, as others have either stated or implied, if you really had better options, you would have gotten other offers at this point. If you do not want to intern at SRR, that's fine, but you are not going to emerge with a BB offer this late in the game. Unfortunately, some times in life, you have have to buckle down and just ride it out.

 

Update: Did not accept the offer. Also, details were changed to begin with, and (surprise) I am not actually that dense. But still, SRR was a good enough comp considering the situation. I think I'll try my luck with the PE opps I have coming up. Would much rather slum it with post MBA analysts with money to blow and time to waste. Thx 4 all the help every1

 

I don't know why people on here so discouraging. I think it's great that OP didn't decide to take the offer. Being able to click with the people at the office is really important imo, because IB is all team work. You wouldn't want to spend 100 hours per week with people you hate.

Also for the most upvoted answer, "Do you really think if you haven't landed a BB / EB / MM position by this point that you'll be able to even later in the cycle?" I'm in the same boat as OP and I'm telling you YES I DO. Recruiting is still going for BBs, especially for non-cores according to my contacts. Stop trying to insult the OP/other people on here who are still looking for something for the summer. Plus having a BB IBD offer doesn't make you ANY better. Put your fragile ego away and shut up. Seriously this forum is so toxic sometimes. An order of magnitude worse than those college confidential days.

 

If you read around on WSO, you will see that audit---> IB is REALLY, EXTREMELY hard. That being said, people have done it. On the other hand, I'm sure that (even with a target school on your resume) finding an IB job in 3-6 months (especially without prior banking experience, a 3.13 GPA etc) will also be REALLY, EXTREMELY hard.

Tough choice.

Personally, I'd take the offer. If you can't transition to IB, you can always get an MBA first- you can actually get into top programs with an audit background if you are a great all-round applicant. I'd go audit--->MBA--->IB--->VC (if you can't get TAS or IB before an MBA). You may be having second thoughts, and it may not be what you want, but I'd personally rather have this than chance having nothing (ie, not this or IB, and in an extreme scenario nothing relevant at all) in 3-6 months (because that would be a very real possibility).

 
notthehospitalER:

If you read around on WSO, you will see that audit---> IB is REALLY, EXTREMELY hard. That being said, people have done it. On the other hand, I'm sure that (even with a target school on your resume) finding an IB job in 3-6 months (especially without prior banking experience, a 3.13 GPA etc) will also be REALLY, EXTREMELY hard.

Tough choice.

Personally, I'd take the offer. If you can't transition to IB, you can always get an MBA first- you can actually get into top programs with an audit background if you are a great all-round applicant. I'd go audit--->MBA--->IB--->VC (if you can't get TAS or IB before an MBA). You may be having second thoughts, and it may not be what you want, but I'd personally rather have this than chance having nothing (ie, not this or IB, and in an extreme scenario nothing relevant at all) in 3-6 months (because that would be a very real possibility).

This. Take the offer.

 
notthehospitalER:

If you read around on WSO, you will see that audit---> IB is REALLY, EXTREMELY hard. That being said, people have done it. On the other hand, I'm sure that (even with a target school on your resume) finding an IB job in 3-6 months (especially without prior banking experience, a 3.13 GPA etc) will also be REALLY, EXTREMELY hard.

Tough choice.

Personally, I'd take the offer. If you can't transition to IB, you can always get an MBA first- you can actually get into top programs with an audit background if you are a great all-round applicant. I'd go audit--->MBA--->IB--->VC (if you can't get TAS or IB before an MBA). You may be having second thoughts, and it may not be what you want, but I'd personally rather have this than chance having nothing (ie, not this or IB, and in an extreme scenario nothing relevant at all) in 3-6 months (because that would be a very real possibility).

I ended up taking the offer, and this is pretty much why. Something is always better than potentially nothing. I can always transition later at some point and in fact, I'm working on that now. Thanks for all the responses everyone!

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
 
Loki777:

You cant re-interview for TAS in 2 years? Maybe check out other big4 TAS groups after two years.

I can, but that's 2 more years down the drain, and there's no guarantee of getting in. Although it is a valid option, I'm looking for something that's more of a safe bet.

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
 

I see very few auditors made to IB, because there is a very thin similarity in terms of job functions ans skill set. Having said that, I did see a few people pull that off. But more would choose a target b-school to go around it, that's why you see so many accountants in b-school.

So if I were you, I would go take the auditing job, keep searching for TAS openings within and out of that firm. If that worked out, make the leap. If not, apply to a good b-school after two to three years and look for IB or VC jobs then.

 

If it's Deloitte, I would try to transition into their consulting arm (is that a possible from audit? Or maybe audit - TAS - consulting?), and then try MBA and/or industry --> VC route. You don't even need an MBA if you want to do VC. Top VCs want operators / serial entrepreneurs; they have no need for finance guys. TAS / IB are a complete waste of time if you are targeting VC long-term. I would even try targeting operator roles at VC portfolio companies medium-term.

 
PEFOF2012:

If it's Deloitte, I would try to transition into their consulting arm (is that a possible from audit? Or maybe audit - TAS - consulting?), and then try MBA and/or industry --> VC route. I would even try targeting operator roles at VC portfolio companies medium-term.

  1. Not Deloitte. 2. Hadn't thought of the route you mentioned though, do you have any specific advice on that?
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
 

Wow man, don't be dumb and accept the offer. Learn some financial modeling in your free time, and start applying for TAS jobs everywhere. It's not that hard, the difficult part is transferring internally because these firms aren't stupid. They will dangle the carrot for a few years, and then let you switch right before you're ready to leave which will set you back work experience wise.

 

If you really have your heart set on VC, you should find an industry that you're really passionate about and go work in that industry -- e.g. you want to end up in tech VC, go work at a tech company in operations/product management or at a tech start-up. The best VC firms add value because of their industry expertise. No offense, but I don't think that Audit / TAS/ IB / MBA will help you as much as hands-on, in-depth working knowledge of a specific industry. Sure, I know IB and MBA can feed into VC... this is just my .02.

p.s. a STEM degree will help for VC. It's very difficult to evaluate a technical product/service that has no revenue without knowledge of how and IF the product/service works as well as industry in which they will compete (which goes back to my first point).

 

Would you be willing to stay unemployment for a month, 6 months or maybe even a year searching for the perfect job? If I'm in a situation where this is my only offer and I am supporting myself I would take the offer. If your parents are willing to support you if you don't have offers after you graduate then you can gamble a bit more.

 

@Ruskii: Totally understand dangling the carrot. I've had talks with a few ex big 4 and if you're not really high rated, the only way to let you switch internally is really to tell them you'll leave if you don't- and you'll still have to leave sometimes.

@Poff: I definitely see where you're coming from, but lots of the VC firms in my area are hiring associates with IB experience and not necessarily tech backgrounds

@Raytheplumber: I could stay at home for a bit if I really wanted to, but I do have student loans to pay back and my parents have paid my tuition these 4 years so I don't want to place undude burden on them.

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
 

Everyone here's got a good point. I would also take the audit offer then switch to TAS. Keep in mind it might be easier to move to another big 4's TAS cause internal transfers can be a bitch sometimes (and potentially harder than just looking externally, time-wise anyways).

Good to hear you are a senior, I guess you'll probably make mgr 2 years after graduate. That's not that bad of a job in itself, but on the other side the time commitment are likely to be way higher (seniors are expected to lead engagements from my experience in Canada). So do be prepared in that aspect, you might need to give up a good portion of your personal time to dedicate to networking/job hunting. I think another minor issue might be after a while the focus of your resume shifts to a "big 4 accountant" rather than a "target graduate". So you may need to start looking for alternatives even before you start full time in audit.

TL:DR: Take the job but keep looking for your dream job as if you are unemployed. Set aside more time of your day to meet both obligations accordingly.

Best of luck, CDNdude

 

I've heard of this happening as well. I got an offer from a summer internship, but didn't want to make a decision until I had interviewed. I ended up not accepting several months after the original deadline. When I finally did decline, I called the recruiter and spoke with her. She thanked me for getting back in touch with them because so many times candidates don't get back in touch and then they don't know if the candidate has declined or not. The impression I've gotten is that the deadlines are not set in stone and you probably can still accept after a deadline (especially since bigger places do not necessarily have a fixed number of slots), however, since this is your real-life career, you probably shouldn't take risks like that with it.

 

The most important criteria when deciding to join a small firm is the experience and track record of senior management. If this seems questionable at the REPE firm, then I would recommend going with the F500 company. That being said, she could be missing out on a great opportunity with the REPE firm if she wants to be in real estate long term, but it is all about the vibe she got in the interview. Did they seem smart and professional or idiots that managed to raise $ from FFF?

 

Take it -- keep on recruiting and reneg it later. Do what's best for you.

Remember when you got rejected? It's the same way for them. You reneg, they find some other kid to call. It takes 5 minutes.

 

It's a tough call, but given the current environment I would go with the safe bet and take the offer. You'll be able to develop good analytical skills in ER, and the modeling skills should be pretty transferable to IB if you want to make the switch in the next year or two when the market settles down a bit.

Good luck!

Capitalist
 

Seriously bad advice on this thread. Go with this:

Spectro:
accept it bro. It is a tough economy out there.
esbanker:
It's a tough call, but given the current environment I would go with the safe bet and take the offer. You'll be able to develop good analytical skills in ER, and the modeling skills should be pretty transferable to IB if you want to make the switch in the next year or two when the market settles down a bit.
If you get an IBD job, then you can figure out how to renege on your offer. Don't risk getting stuck on unemployment or an ops waitlist because you didn't get your first choice.
Get busy living
 

You can take the offer and try lateralling to IBD after a few months. If you get an IBD offer before you start, bail out.

Flake:
Don't worry so much, you'll always have an exploding offer from me.
+1
Get busy living
 

Go with your guts.

If you think you have a good chance with the boutiques, then wait.

If the choice was up to me, I'd wait for the boutique banks to get back to me.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor. -Dr. Alexis Carrel
 

eriginal,

Question: I went to a non-target but respected business school for undergrad and just passed Level I of the CFA program in June and have not even been able to land interviews for ER Associate positions. I've spoken with 4 different MM banks about ER openings they had and they all want somebody with a minimum of 3-5 years ER Associate experience that can build their own models, hit the ground running, minimal training/oversight from the analyst.

At this point, I think breaking into IBD is easier then ER, even with a CFA. I seriously hate this chicken/egg environment we are in today: how do you get the necessary experience if people are only willing to hire those with previous experience?

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.
 
UFOinsider:
Seriously bad advice on this thread. Go with this:
Spectro:
accept it bro. It is a tough economy out there.
esbanker:
It's a tough call, but given the current environment I would go with the safe bet and take the offer. You'll be able to develop good analytical skills in ER, and the modeling skills should be pretty transferable to IB if you want to make the switch in the next year or two when the market settles down a bit.
If you get an IBD job, then you can figure out how to renege on your offer. Don't risk getting stuck on unemployment or an ops waitlist because you didn't get your first choice.

Thanks for consolidating the good advice I'd +1 if I had it. I'm definitely going to accept the offer, this job environment is too iffy and I've put in too much work to risk unemployment...is it horrible form to renege?

aempirei:
eriginal, At this point, I think breaking into IBD is easier then ER, even with a CFA. I seriously hate this chicken/egg environment we are in today: how do you get the necessary experience if people are only willing to hire those with previous experience?

I agree, very difficult to get the necessary experience to be competitive. I have had 5 finance internships but even still had to network my ass off to get interviews; probably sent out about 400 applications/emails. I feel fortunate to be in the position at all, even still It's stressing me out.

 
hungryhippo:
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/wall-st-layoffs-take-heavy-toll-…

now is the not the time to fantasize about your dreams of overcoming the odds to becoming the next Gordon Gekko. Take the offer.

okay24:
take it, don't be stupid

Overwhelming feedback, much appreciated. That was the decision I was going to make, just wanted some reassurance that I was making the right move.

Also, I can't believe that hipster douche bag featured in the article even managed to get a finance job in the first place...the whole editorial reeks of entitlement.

 

I was in the same position as you a year ago and you're making the wrong play accepting the ER role right away. Ask for an extension - exploding offer? Kiss my ass. This is what you do: Call them up tomorrow and tell them you really liked everyone you met with, were impressed with the interviewers, etc., but you want to be absolutely sure this is the best fit for you - afterall it is the biggest decision of your life up to that point. There is absolutely NO DOWNSIDE to asking for an extension - better yet, if you ARE granted an extension, use it as leverage at the boutiques. If you land one boutique offer, you're now sitting on 2 offers and the other boutiques will give you the benefit of the doubt while interviewing you (not to say you'll get them though).

If you're truly a baller, you'd roll up 3+ offers and go to BB IB and say, listen, got 4 offers, give me a damn interview.

This is business. Learn to play hardball. Don't sit back and accept something without exploring what you truly want to do just because "its a tough environment".

Get them to extend the offer. If they still say its exploding, accept, interview elsewhere, and then reneg. Renegging will come easier since you can use the excuse "yea but you really didnt let me explore my options and see if this was the best fit for me." And despite what people would say, it won't be the end of the world if you reneg at some AM for ER, when really you want to do IB and probably IB at a BB.

 

Glad you arrived at the right decision. I was just about to chime in with similar thoughts of "Accept. Then renege if need be."

The thing is -- and I know it's hard to understand, and I too worried about "horrible form" and all that -- but these employers don't give too shits about you. Don't hold yourself to a higher standard than the standard to which they hold themselves: They wouldn't think twice about booting you for any reason.

In short, the "at will" clause that's likely in your contract should benefit you as much as it does them.

 
dfall:
This is business. Learn to play hardball. Don't sit back and accept something without exploring what you truly want to do just because "its a tough environment".

I forgot to mention that I did try to get an extension when I received the offer because the time frame they gave me was undesirable. HR told me that although they would like to give me more time, their candidate pool is shrinking and they will not offer me an extension. I agree, reneging if I do get an offer elsewhere is probably my best bet.

In a side note, I have no desire to work for a BB;I want to work for a boutique with a team that suits my personality. The few that I am fairly serious with fit the bill perfectly and I feel confident they will extend offers soon. However, in this market it would be delusional to turn down a sure thing.

atomic:
Glad you arrived at the right decision. I was just about to chime in with similar thoughts of "Accept. Then renege if need be."

One of my good friends actually got me my first interview through a contact of his - I don't want it to reflect poorly on him. Reneging is definitely an absolute worst case scenario, I'd rather not screw someone over if I can avoid it.

 

Accept the offer.

When a plumber from Hoboken tells you he has a good feeling about a reverse iron condor spread on the Japanese Yen, you really have no choice. If you don’t do it to him, somebody else surely will. -Eddie B.
 

Echo that you shouldn't keep it a secret because if someone finds out you are shooting yourself in the foot (actually probably more like the balls because it would be pretty serious).

That said, you should do what mr.bateman said and try to get the BBs to expedite their process. But if they cannot do that I would get back in touch with the firm you have the offer from and ask if you can get an extension to decide. I wouldn't say you want the extension to interview elsewhere, but just that you are stuck and need more time to speak with mentors, parents, etc.

 

Definitely don't decline it if you have no other offers, you might not get another. I would try and get them to extend the offer, shouldn't be a huge problem. Leverage your current offer in your upcoming interviews. Worst case, take the offer, and if you get a better one, renege. Reneging on a acct firm aint going to get you blackballed in finance.

 

If the valuation firm in Chicago is a reputable firm with some interesting work potential it sounds better than audit. That said, if this (chicago gig) is your only other option (that is more beneficial than your current offer) AND you haven't gotten an offer yet, you are better off going with audit, getting whatever experience you can and making the big push for junior year SA recruiting.

As a rising junior with 2 solid internships on your resume you will be in a good position to land an IB gig. If your final round with the Chicago firm is ahead of your deadline then go for it and if you need to, make a push to rush the decision. Otherwise, take the audit position ahead of few options and a lot of uncertainty.

 

OP, they are fucking with you. Figure out what YOU want to do. If you don't know, think about it in terms of will it be easier to go from 2 to 1 than from 1 to 2? If nothing else, TR name is prob way more recognizable than either 1 or 3

More is good, all is better
 
Argonaut:
OP, they are fucking with you. Figure out what YOU want to do. If you don't know, think about it in terms of will it be easier to go from 2 to 1 than from 1 to 2? If nothing else, TR name is prob way more recognizable than either 1 or 3

Thanks man appreciate it, I'll probably just go with Thomas Reuters since I really can't decide.

 

I'll counter this and go with 1. Go with Thomson Reuters, and while you're getting industry experience, you're not getting experience 100% applicable to AM or IBD. Given that it's your sophomore summer, you don't need the end-all, be-all placement that juniors do since you're not looking to convert a FT offer or be screwed. Go to the fund, you'll get experience in AM which you can also spin incredibly positively for IBD or AM in the future since you got it as only a sophomore, as well as for S&T simply since it's relevant finance experience.

Normally I'd say 3 because for IBD, IBD experience is best. There's nothing like putting "Investment Banking Summer Analyst" on your resume for future recruiting, however you're at a target so you'll have access to great OCR again, and taking fund experience is not a throwaway at all. Besides, you're not even sure you want to do IBD, so in my opinion, the first choice leaves you broadest opportunity for the future, gives you solid experience right now, and ought to help you get a taste for what it is you actually want to do.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

good luck Ryerson.

‎"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to become the means by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of other men. Blood, whips and guns or dollars."
 
al865149:
Nope, not Ryerson, thank god.

The only other B.Comm in Canada that fits that profile (considered non-target) would be Carleton, and man I hope you don't go there. Anyways your resume is weak if you want IBD of any kind but I can't point out any specific flaws except the quality of your experience, the fact that you left your GPA off (which means that I, and any recruiter will assume it's

‎"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to become the means by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of other men. Blood, whips and guns or dollars."
 

Get rid of "Fluent in English" but then again...I don't know what you Canadians speak up there.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 

No, not Carleton either.

Trying to remedy the lack of experience with a part-time position this fall and any sort of IBD SA position next summer, including unpaid.

GPA is low because of personal/family issues through first and second year. I'm confident I can bring it up to something decent .

And really? Those courses aren't relevant? - Corporate Finance - This was a full year course. Exactly what it sounds like and seems quite relevant to me. - International Financial Management - Covered different types of equity analysis, arbitrage trading situations, FX trading, etc... - Financial Institutions - capital ratios, FI risk management, merger pricing, asset pricing, etc...

Not looking to start another school vs school or Canada vs US thread, just looking for an answer to my original question whether I should keep pressing for the boutique IB part-time position or suck it up and take the BB part-time position.

 

Perhaps you should ask your employer to let you go immediately or try to compromise with them (i.e. 2 weeks). If your employer still says no, explain that to the bank and hopefully they will understand.

Also, what happens if you were to just stop showing up to work?

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."
 

Sucks, but that is the opportunity cost.

Also, your signing bonus should cover that.

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."
 

I think the "weakling" thing to do here is assume the hiring manager holds all the cards. You already have a job and you can always find another bank to hire you if one wants you. This isn't some college graduate situation.

Tell them you need four weeks out of respect for your previous manager. If they can't work with that, they can find someone else. They don't need to worry about you- you'll find another bank to work for.

And if the job doesn't work out, you won't have burned down the bridge with your previous firm. The month's salary is probably the least of your concerns in the long run.

 

If you leave without notice....you 4 week notice...you employer can't do anything You might never get a job in that company again...but if you are going to a better place who cares then. They can't withohold salary wither if they are a registered company under U.S Labor Laws for the hours you have worked.

You burn bridges to make bridges.

 

4 weeks notice? Yeah, sure. Walk in give industry standard 2 weeks and if they don't like it tell them your 2 weeks can become 2 minutes if they want. Who the hell has a month long resignation?

 

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Et aut voluptatem ab. Quia eligendi odio nesciunt ut. Repellendus facilis dolores exercitationem qui. Sed voluptate beatae voluptatem inventore ipsam amet non.

 

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"I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. " -GG
 

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"too good to be true" See my WSO Blog
 

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Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

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Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.
 

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I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.

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