I want to make the move out to philly to work after graduation, but I have no particular professional connections out there. I was wondering what finance in philly is mostly biased towards (trading, research, economics, etc.) and how competitive it is relative to Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc.
any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Philly vs. NYC Finance (Originally Posted: 12/10/2012)
I know this is a very opinionated topic with the vast majority on the NYC side, but was hoping for some clarification.
My background: - Pre-MBA experience as Real Estate/Major Capital Construction Project Consulting at Big 4 - Starting b-school next fall - Looking to transition into finance with the hopes of securing a PE/VC position down the line. Most likely i-banking for a few years to get my foot in the PE/VC door.
That being said, what are everyone's thoughts on the following questions:
Thanks for the help.
Looking forward to the discussion!
"Do I need to go into finance in NYC to eventually be successful" This is a ridiculous question - go and do what you love and dont be blinded by money or what people generally think
Finance in Philadelphia is very small and close knit. Banking you have Janney, Stifel (mainly Associates and above), Harris Williams, SSG, Griffen, Boenning. Some other smaller players.
Lots of PE and AM. Some VC stuff. Lots of Public Finance. JPM has equity sales and PB. Citi has sales also. BNY Mellow has private banking. Aberdeen is in the city. Pension funds also.
Not as robust as Chicago or Boston by any means. You're going to have to grind it out. I'd suggest getting a credit role or corporate banking at PNC, TD, Wells, something like that. It will be a good job in the city and give you skills that you can transfer. Maybe try for Janney, but their recruiting is at need usually.
How is Janney IB?
Janney is pretty solid but I've heard rumor that deal flow is ehhh. Like much of the regional IB's comp is ehh as well. This is based off glassdoor though, so may be worth pursuing yourself
I'm not in IB so I can't comment on Janney's industry rep, but I do hear that they are a very solid regional shop. Interested to hear what circles the alums travel in as far as exit opps.
I interviewed for an internship at Janney Capital Markets before. It was a rotational between 2 of the 3 groups, so the summer would be split 50/50. The phone interview was with an MD in a coverage group and it was very technical. The groups I met with for the superday were Equity Research (interviewed with research analyst) and IB (interviewed with 2 analysts). They all seemed very bright and engaged.
They recruit from top schools around the area. They listed:
Bryn Mawr College Haverford College Howard University Princeton University Swarthmore College University of Pennsylvania Villanova University
and both they guys in IB I interviewed with went to good schools on that list.
Great post, but I want to clarify that though some of these m&a firms have offices in philly, they're often like satellite squared offices. Think 5-10 people, even for these great shops. It's weird. Not enough corpfin need in philly
Seeing a lot of Philly posts lately, I like it.
I think the above post has it covered well as I'm relatively new to the scene. Think there's some Big4 TAS/consulting presence and Duff&Phelps valuation work as well.
I would say most opportunities are in asset management.
My apologies if i phrased the question poorly.
It just so happens that finance is something I take pleasure in.
It was more a question of geographic location, not "will I ever be successful?". If that were my intent, then i would completely agree with you.
I'm attempting to weigh the pros and cons of NYC vs. Philadelphia with the help of some experienced monkeys.
Will taking a job in Philly vs. NYC lead to a slower progression path in finance?
Awesome, I was actually leaning more towards asset management. My degree is Econ from a top Big Ten school, so how marketable will that be out there? I know its east coast so there are a lot of ivies and stuff, but do they really end up in philly?
Oh sorry then :/ If you have the choice, go for NYC for sure - center of finance!
Current student in Philly now. Decent amount of firms around. CS S&T/PB, GS IMD, Stifel, JMS, BNYM (huge around here), HarrisWilliams, MS is around, SSG Capital Advisors, PNC, Brown Brothers Harriman is here (old HQ)
Not a lot of IBD for these though. Most are AM/PB .. Most are also out in the 'burbs (Conshohocken especially)
Philly in da house!
Yeah, I forgot a bunch. Tons of smaller shops also. Philly is a place where you really need to search around. Tons of hidden finance.
Haha spaceage cowboy. Fantastic post.
Are you currently in the Philly finance circuit? Any comment or opinion to it?
My bloodlines are in Philly, so I am partial to it, but I'm not opposed to travelling for better opportunity.
Literally the first person I've ever heard of that WANTS to live in Philly.
Philly finance is like any other secondary city finance. There are some MM banks here, some boutiques, some PE/VC/HF. NYC is usually easier to start out since big banks have training programs and there are more opportunities. The cost of living is lower, as is the salary.
Yeah, Philly gets a bad rap on this board because it's not a top finance hub and many of the people posting are naive college kids who have only lived with their parents. It basically has all the stuff NYC and Boston have (Phila is 5th largest US city, way bigger than Boston) and its cost of living is much lower. The central location to NYC, Wash DC and Baltimore is also very convenient.
The national media does a great job destroying the city's reputation so if you want to believe those outlets that's fine, and don't forget to cast your vote for Hillary in 2016.
I like 'It's Always Sunny' though
//www.youtube.com/embed/XOEJLY2PWfg
Honest answer is it 'just depends'. You could be equally successful in Philly as you would otherwise be in NYC, or virtually any other 'finance city'...but the odds are better off in NYC.
I'm not going to give you a hard time, because I've spent countless hours contemplating random scenarios but don't get caught up on the minutia if you aren't actually evaluating offers. Who says you will get an offer from any firm, much less one in either of those two cities?
Again, I'm not trying to be an ass. As I said, I catch myself doing the same mental analysis on where I would be willing to live, what the path might look like, etc. because it's in my nature to be analytical...and prepared. With that said, I've found it to be a huge waste of time. If there are companies you might want to work for that are in Philly, then go for it. You are going to want to cast the widest net possible coming out of b-school and are likely going to adjust your target given the feedback you get during the recruiting cycle...whether that impacts the industry or the actually job or the city in which you might have to move to.
In my mind, and maybe I'm naive, there isn't a huge difference between Philly and NYC...at least not enough to make me choose the city I liked the least...job offers being equal. Of course there are actually differences and those are likely the reasons you lean towards Philly, but at the end of the day you aren't trying to decide between Bentonville, AK and NYC.
I will say the pigeon holing question could be a bit relevant. Again, you just never know and if there was a database somewhere that you could search you would see that there have been people that have had no problems going from Philly to other markets and others that did. Generally it's easier to go 'downstream', as opposed to up, but either can be done. That is to say, it's easier to convince a potential employer/coworker you want to be in a smaller city, because people naturally want to 'settle down', which is always seen as being easier in a smaller city. Moving from a smaller city to NYC might be a challenge in some cases because people are going to question whether you can hack it, especially given that you are post MBA and older. Given the size of Philly, that probably wouldn't be the case if you changed your mind down the line.
As others would tell you, the firm you work for and the actual work you do will always trump the location...from a future career opportunity standpoint. Also, consider the type of work you are going to be doing at the PE firms you have in mind. Similar to the city-size analogy, it's easier to go from a BB IB to a MM PE than it is to go from a MM IB to a megafund. If you take an offer for IB in Philly, then your best exit opps will be with PE firms that do deals of a similar nature and size...and it may be more difficult to move upstream. Conversely, having experience at a BB IB will often open more doors for you and provide 'better' opportunities. So keep that in mind.
Last thing to think about...and you really won't be able to do this until you have offers, or potential offers...is what benefit does living in Philly provide over the potential career benefits of doing a similar job in NYC? Is the trade off of (potentially) fewer exit opps worth your perceived benefit of living in Philly? Only you can answer that question and will really only be able to do it when you know what IBs and what groups, etc.
Did you already apply and get accepted to a b-school?
Regards
haha I have family there that I want to reconnect with and I have no real attachment to any other city.
So cold networking should be my approach at this point? Sounds like there are some solid firms and awesome opportunties out there, I just hope that I am marketable enough seeing as how I have no connections or network there.
If you are doing your MBA here, assuming it is Wharton, there are a ton of alumni in the city if you want to stay. Lots of REPE/VC/PE. PM me if you want to meet up for drinks or talk more. I know the scene here pretty well.
Keep in mind Philly is a trash dump, but a lovable one. Too many bums and thugs. However the sports scene is great; be well-versed on how the Phillies/Eagles are doing and you'll do well in interviews
I think this is a pretty irresponsible comment. Have you seen what Chicago is like these days or any other major cities in their less than desirable neighborhoods?
Philly is, much like any large city, nice in the downtown/business district area and nicest suburbs areas.
There's some truth to that. I think Chicago, Detroit, and Philly are all in that category. Of course there are nice areas. Could say the same about Chicago and Detroit. But for the large part, Philly is a shell of its formal self and makes residents uncomfortable--specifically North Philadelphia/some parts around Penn. Not what it used to be 30 years ago.. now dominated by rundown buildings, needles on the ground, a feeling of entitlement, joblessness, groups of people glaring at you as you walk down the street, individuals who can't be older than 13 cursing and talking about shooting people around 2 and 3 year olds on subways, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I love my city and wear it on my sleeve-- but they don't call it "Killadelphia, Pistolvania" or "The City of Brotherly Slugs" for nothing
Philadelphia is similar to Dallas and Atlanta finance-wise. Big cities, but finance scene is a little smaller (and generally slightly less competitive) than major finance hubs: NYC, SF, Chicago, etc....
Well now I feel like a smacked ass!
I have no clue why I put next fall for b-school, wishful thinking I suppose. I'm targetting Fall 2014 for enrollment.
Target schools are Wharton, Booth, Columbia, Kellogg, Fuqua, MIT, among others.
I'm a bit premature on the forums, but similar to cphbravo, I like to plan, be prepared, and meditate over things. That being said, are there things over the next 1.5 years, pre-MBA matriculation, that I can do to sharpen my chances at PE/VC work in Philly?
What is the possibility of, upon acceptance into a program, leaving my Big 4 position for an extended internship somewhere in finance (maybe even PE/VC)? Good or Bad idea? Is that a reasonable idea or would I have one hell of a time trying to secure an internship?
P.S. cphbravo...fantastic and informative post. +1SB to you fine sir.
Most of this board has no idea how low the cost of living in Philly is compared to the other large Eastern Seaboard cities (NYC/DC/BOS)
I think you are doing the right thing by planning ahead and doing research...I just caution you not to spend too much time contemplating the finer details because it often becomes a waste of time. Who knows, you could end up at Booth and fall in love with Chicago, get a sweet offer, know 50 people that already live there, etc. and refuse to leave. Or maybe that will be the case with Philly. I just wouldn't fret over the city at this point.
I do think time spent figuring out what you want to do is time well invested. If you think you are going to be a path to PE and that you might have to make a pitstop in IB, it's good that you know that much. PE jobs are almost entirely about networking. Going to the level of schools you mentioned should give you access to opportunities, but as you may know, it will be far fewer than you can imagine. Many people think that PE recruiting is going to be like IB recruiting, but that is just not the case. Every year banks are looking to put bodies in empty slots. PE firms are not. They are lean, only hire a few people and those people, at the level you would be looking at, almost always stay for the investing life of the fund...so you are talking 5 years or so. That is to say, there isn't a lot of turnover.
That means you can't wait for someone to show up on campus and post an opening on a website. You have to be proactive by networking through contacts in the industry and let them know what your plans are...that you are probably going back to school...that you would like to work in PE, etc.
Being that I work at a (very small) PE fund, I've seen the process to fill a position unfold. It was literally a conversation between two of the senior people whether they wanted to replace the guy that left. They decided not to, for some time, but eventually changed their mind. When they started looking, it was literally a few phone calls to a couple senior people in the area and they simply asked if they knew any good candidates. If you happen to know that same person and they know you are looking, then there is an instant referral. In our case, the partners somehow ran across someone and each met with him. They wanted to get my opinion, so I had dinner with the guy. I liked him, came back to the office and said that he seemed capable and that I thought he would fit in. They had him do a modeling test and some other things and once we saw that they were acceptable, we gave him an offer.
We literally talked to just one candidate...as opposed to banks that plaster postings everywhere and interview hundreds of folks for just a few slots.
So again, networking. I tell folks all the time to just reach out and go meet up with someone for coffee because you never know who will take a liking to you and whether they will go to bat for you. I got an internship at a PE firm and one at a VC firm, just because I sought out a random finance professor that I never met and asked for his help. He decided he like me and told me about opportunities that weren't really available. I got my current gig because a guy I met while studying abroad in China knew I was looking for a job and he just happen to know the guy that was leaving because the guy had questions about the new industry he was going to work in.
I had a guy that reached out to me to get coffee and had just an average resume. I decided to meet him and, for whatever reason, thought he was a decent guy and that I could potentially offer him some help or advice. He interned with me for a semester and I passed his name along to a buddy at an IB. He got interviewed and did well and got an SA offer. He did well over the summer and got a FT offer to go back...so he's now working in NYC at a good bank...as opposed to being stuck in Atlanta at who knows where, doing who knows what?
Sometimes it's all completely random.
Regards
I had a very negative idea about Philly before moving here. The city didn't de-industrialize as well as NY or Boston but is starting to come around, e.g. many more neighborhoods around Center City (its downtown) are starting to gentrify. It has its share of problems like any large city but has a ton of potential in my opinion.
I love Philly and would love to move there, but I haven't seen too many jobs there. It's definitely rough around the edges, but I kind of like that. NYC feels too close to Disney World at this point. People are soft here.
Yeah, you're right about the scarcity of front office jobs compared to the finance hubs. Dallasite who said Philly is slightly less competitive is pretty much clueless (not surprising with that username). People hold on to the front office positions tightly and it can be tough to land one. When the PE firms have a junior opening it gets a ton of interest and they can be very selective.
Never said the city's finance scene is not competitive though. I was just speaking in relative terms, but maybe I'm wrong.
Hmmm...Philly...Reading Terminal Food market....Tommy Dinic...yummy...if I lived in Philly I would practically eat at there everyday. Such a great selection of cuisine choices plus I like the Amish merchants too.
I have to second these comments. I recently moved to Philly and came with many of the usual assumptions. With that said, I have been surprised. I certainly feel safe, and the city is a lot friendlier than it seems at first glance. Many of my coworkers, who are lifelong Philly residents have also mentioned how different things are from 10-20 years ago. A lot of the bad areas have been undergoing at least a decade of urban renewal and gentrification. There are several solid areas for a young professional to live. If you stick to Center City/Rittenhouse/Washington Square/Northern Liberties/Society Hill/etc. you should be totally fine.
Cost of living is dirt cheap as well. I have a 1 br with no roommates in one of the nicer areas for $1000/mo with water and gas. Work is only a short 15-20 minute walk along nice, busy streets.
Dinic's is fantastic. That bread and roast pork with provolone is amazing. Easily the best sub I've had.
The first time I had their roast pork sandwich I thought it was the best food ever, straight from heaven, as was their brisket sandwich. In fact I liked them so much I had one of each within a half hour interval...Since then I have gone back quite a few times and was starting to hit diminishing returns on my enjoyment. They are still good, hearty sandwiches, just seemed a bit on the dry side and could use a bit more sauce.
There are plenty of other great food choices at Reading Terminal that I like thou. That place is great and remind me of a less gritty version of LA's Grand Central Food Market. Certainly there is nothing like that in NYC (Chelsea Market has nothing on the RT).
$1000/month for an one bed in a good neighborhood in/around Center City is still quite a deal I think. I was looking at some listings in Society Hill and Old City--my two favorite neighborhoods in Philly and the one-beds cost a bit more than that but still very much cheaper than Manhattan. Although I would not be saving any money on taxes if I were to move to Philly from NYC. It was hard to believe that Philly has an even higher city income tax than NYC. That is just absurd.
I'm sure there are some folks from your school in Philly. Shouldn't be too difficult to locate them.
Decent amount of asset managers. Philly is a pretty solid place to raise a family, so you'll find a melting pot of all sorts of things.
TNA and Adapt nailed it.
Philly is a great place for a young professional starting out in finance. You can easily afford a decent one bedroom in center city right out of school and walk everywhere. The Center City area is big enough that there are plenty of new places to go and people to meet every weekend but small enough you rarely have to take a cab or the subway.
As far as Philly getting a bad rap, its completely based on statistics like murder/crime etc. that take place in shitty pockets of the city like kensington you will never have to set foot in. Center City on its own feels very safe and the young professional social scene is a blast (and its mostly people who went to good schools and care about their careers, not just a bunch of guys with Rocky tattoos beating up people in Giants jerseys).
The only big downside that people looking to work in Philly need to be aware of is that a decent amount of the finance jobs are actually in the suburbs (Radnor, Wayne, Conshohocken), so you may end up having a long reverse commute out of the city. However, a lot of the firms TNA mentioned are right in Center City.
Also, I get the sense that hours are generally more laid back. This might just be because the finance scene is more AM/PWM/RE/Consulting oriented rather than IB, but most people don't seem to have a problem making it to happy hour.
Also for those posting, check out the Philadelphia WSO Happy Hour thread over in Monkeying Around - not enough points to post links yet.
Love seeing all this talk about philly in here. Didn't know Philly got all this love on WSo
loved seeing AI at the game the other night. the memories..
Philly is on the short list of long term destinations for me, no doubt.
where's your star?
plus Philly has a local spot called Jersey Mike's that has the best Philadelphia cheese steak hoagies around!
Jersey Mike's? is this a joke?
Ishkabibble's on south street is #1 cheese steak in the city. On that note, not a fan of the new Lorenzos. Still recommend the Philly taco though
I'm surprised no one's mentioned LLR and related funds (MM PE), SIG (Quant S&T), a fair amount of RE Bank groups (TD, Wells, PNC), family offices (Pitcairn and BPG/Berwind), and a ton of small-mid asset managers. Lots of places to work and cost of living is great (much better than NY/BOS/DC).
It seems that there are a fair amount of PE/VC firms in Radnor as well. Element Partners, NewSpring, L2, and MVP Capital come to mind.
The area of Philly I hang out in is pretty damn nice. The city is on a huge building spree right now. Deff not NYC or Chicago caliber, but you're basically nearby boston, DC, NYC, Baltimore and the shore (Avalon). Low cost of living and all the creature comforts of a true city.
Yeah man, the liquor laws in this state are ass. Can't buy wine online. Beer distributor for cases. I suppose the cool thing is you can buy 6 packs at the bar.
I am pretty on point with the real estate development scene around the city and Philly is in the middle of a massive building spree. Like gentrification on steroids. Hopefully this will drive the wage tax down again.
Worst liquor laws in the country, for certain.
Absolutely, you can blame William Penn and the Quakers for these problems. It looks like the privatization of liquor stores is going to start the ball rolling on changing all this archaic bullshit.
At least we have an abundance of BYOBs going for us haha.
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