Fired For Applying To B-School, What Now?
So last month I asked my boss for a recommendation for B-School and he seemed to go along with it. Unfortunately (as he puts it) senior management wasn't thrilled about me applying for full-time programs and I got canned last week. Something about my long term interests no longer aligning with that of the company's, and me being a liability to the firm because I'm planning to leave and I knew a good number of our systematic trading strategies. (What's to stop me from copying them? I don't know). I know that Goldman did something similar to this when their first year analysts got PE offers, but this came as a shock to me. Anyway, what's done is done, and that is really not important.
More importantly, I'm not sure what to do now...
Obviously I have to start looking for another job, but even that takes time because of paperwork, HR, etc. Should I inform the schools now to explain the impending gap on my resume, or would it just look like I'm making excuses? Should I just take the first job I'm offered so I can at least be employed when submitting my applications? What if that's a step down from my previous job? Maybe I could work for free at a job I want, I don't even care about the money, I'm just wondering if a $0 salary would look worse than a gap on the resume right before applications are in.
Is anyone here hiring? Maybe you could refer me for a $5000 bonus at your firm? Or if you know someone that is hiring, they could refer me and you could split the referral bonus? I have my CFA charter (good luck to everyone taking the exam today!) and have buyside experience. I've never done a 2-year banking stint though.
This is quite stressful as I am 27 and the window for top programs is closing fast. It sucks that I have a 750+ GMAT and it would go to waste. Sorry about the long post but I just needed to get this off my chest.
Thoughts?
Dude, I think you are stressing on this a bit too much. With a CFA and high GMAT you are solid candidate for B-School. Plus at 27 yo your window is not closing, in fact you are just coming into the sweet spot for top programs. Assume you are targeting Fall 2014 start? I would apply to jobs and b-schools and just see what happens. BUT, I would certainly not just take any random job you can. In fact, I would think about what you want to do post-MBA, and use this as a chance to start positioning yourself and story as such. Also, think broadly: If you have a buy-side background and want to continue in that space, then focus on buy-side jobs, however if you want to make a radical career change (e.g. social media consulting, luxury goods marketing??) then go after something in that space, even as an intern. Maybe going abroad to volunteer would be interesting, even if you want to stay in finance (e.g. if you want to focus on emerging markets post-MBA). Something to think about: While you have great data points for an MBA, many people have the same, so making your application more interesting could be advantageous. The key here is make sure you tell a good story to an MBA interviewer, and more importantly, to a recruiter, so again, "any port in the storm" won't do, but thinking broadly to be more unique might be a great way to improve your resume and stand out in the crowd.
sounds like a great opportunity for a challenge essay. Adcoms want to see that you've mitigated difficult times. This sounds like a great opportunity to showcase that. They also want to know that you have an immediate post-mba goal (keeping in mind you can change that upon matriculating). So picking the first job you're offered, assuming it doesn't fit with your goal, would be difficult to explain.
If you have money saved up and relatively few ties, you could do something overseas and different. Ever wanted to work with an NGO in a developing country, be in the Peace Corp, teach?
Reduce your expenses, do something fulfilling, and travel. B-schools love that stuff and your time for doing so in life is limited.
Not ideal financially but as others mentioned, perfect to differentiate yourself from other applicants. Engage in something your passionate about / interested in / might want a future career/volunteer opportunity in. It'll be rewarding personally and professionally. Just don't take they year off to "travel" and have nothing to show for it but pictures and passport stamps.
Just a thought, maybe get involved in a start up? Not sure if you have any contacts working on anything but it could be a good way to gain some different experience.
As mentioned earlier, taking the time to travel/get involved in an international NGO also would be a good idea. This might afford you the opportunity to pick up another language.
Not trying to hijack, but how common is this (assuming one does not work in IB or PE, where this is expected)?
Although I am just an undergrad who knows nothing, but I've seen a few resumes of those who are in HBS/Wharton MBA programmes. It seems that many of them actually do some voluntary stuff or NGO,NPO thing during the year before MBA.
So I think it might not be as bad as you thought to leave your job now. You can do some voluntary and NGO for this year, and I think that will make your application much more interesting than just working in finance.
Aren't even successful applicants to HSW unsure about this type of risk when asking for recs
I was in the quant department of a mutual fund. They send very few people to b-school every year, and the majority of the people that do go attend a part-time program.
Target is M7, not applying to Stanford.
This is a major problem among quant hedge funds and trading firms. A few of my friends were unable to get recs from current employers due to fear of getting fired and had to ask recommenders going back to college. It's pretty ?ridiculous, and I wish mba adcom were more understanding of this. I think MBA recs in general are too much of a pain in the ass for both the applicants and the recommenders. They're very time consuming, and let's face it, your boss has much more important things to worry about than your recs. For the applicant, he needs to basically "coach" his recommenders on what type of stuff to write, especially if the rec writer has not done that many mba recs before (this is another area where MBB consultants, bankers, and PE have a big advantage).
For the OP, it seems like you have a solid resume, so finding another job should not be a problem. You should look for other jobs, do some interesting nonprofit/volunteer work, maybe even a startup (sounds like you know programming), and then go ahead an apply this upcoming year. Also, what are your short-term and long-term career goals? What is your "ideal" post-mba job?
Thanks for your support. Post-MBA I'd like to work in a hedge fund doing fundamental investing. I figured that going from Quant Investing at a Mutual Fund --> MBA --> Fundamental Investing at a Hedge Fund is certainly feasible, but now I'm not sure if unemployed applicants can get into top programs. I'll probably offer to intern at another fund for free (I already do volunteer work - mentoring for 3 years) to build my skillset. As for the recs, I'll probably get 2 recs from people I worked with in my first (back office) job.
Unfortunately I cannot due to the agreement that I signed. I don't even think it matters because I heard that they want to replace me with someone who already has a masters / PhD (not an MBA), so that person could stay long term and won't jump ship to an MBA program.
Yes I'm targeting a Fall 2014 start so I'll apply this year. I was only worrying about this because someone who used to do adcom at H/S/W told me that I should get a job asap.
Interesting that a former HSW adcom lady said that to you since I know multiple people who worked for free for a nonprofit or startup who managed to get into top programs.
Regarding your career goals, given that you were already at a mutual fund, your short-term goals are realistic. A lot more mutual funds recruit on-campus at the top schools than hedge funds, however, so you should keep that in mind. Basically it's going to be M7 (except Kellogg) or bust for you.
OP, can you comment on what firm this was? So others don't make the same mistake
im pretty sure most (legit) funds let people come in and work for free and they have to be paid etc
Dude if you knew anything valuable you'd be on no-compete, e.g. paid vacation for at least 10 months. You'd have recruiters calling you constantly, and have at least 1 offer on deck. We only know 1/2 the story, your side. Who did you work for? Get detailed, you are already anonymous.
did you get perp walk, escort out the premises?
Not exactly. It's a very tough finance job market; the U.S. is recovering and in better shape than Europe, but it's still pretty bad. Even for quants, the market is oversaturated, with tons of mfin/mfe and phd's looking for positions in quant research, trading, pricing, and risk management.
Yes the overhang of these grads looking for jobs is saturated, quite saturated... The universities are selling these degrees non-stop. When I saw university ads on bus stops and on TVs, I knew they were more in the business of the sell than the education. They are obviously not interested in plowing those marketing expenses into improving the quality of their education or taking off some of the financial burden of students as money is fungible.
Random digression aside, if you are already in and have knowledge of operations from a profitable business unit, that is extremely valuable to competitors and you will likely be contacted by recruiters trying to make that recruiting bonus that OP was talking about.
i still say go work at a start up abroad in a foreign sexy location
like brasil
i heard thats what all the cool kids are doing
Brazil, South Africa, Nairobery Kenya (silicon savanna, and yes, you will get robed at some piont if you are there for more than a week), Korea, SE Asia (which I would recommend because there are few Americans who hang there, at least outside of Thailand, the food is great, and there is almost no violent crime to speak of)--- The possibilities are endless
Would love to take you up on the referral thing...PM me if interested
Just sent you a PM
That's tough man. I say try and get a gig at a startup. They succeed and fail in 18 months anyways.
I wouldn't advertise the b-school situation to potential startups. Nor your current unemployment situation to b-schools.
Try to keep your referrers onboard. If anything, they may feel bad about what the firm did to you.
I'm really glad you made this post. 90% of the time, if you approach your boss for a B-school reference, it will work out great. 10% of the time, things can go bad. I do think there are a few things people can do to help mitigate those odds- maybe cut them from 10% to 5%, but that's a different topic for a different thread. I don't believe in focusing on woulda coulda shoulda, and I'm not sure anything I suggest could have made a difference here anyways.
It seems like the person he asked for a recommendation is the one who ratted him out to management. Finding people to write business school recommendations can be extremely difficult for people who aren't in "tracked" fields (consulting, finance, F500 companies that regularly send people off for two years, etc.).
My suggestion for anyone in a similar circumstance: if people ask about it, tell them that you're applying to part-time schools in your area -- if they ask about full-time, say you're just throwing your hat in the ring as a lark of sorts.
what kind of startup would hire a former mutual fund analyst and in what role? (not rhetorical, serious question)
After experiencing very similar circumstances in my prior role, I think the above response is probably the most intelligent.
Don't apply saying you are unemployed. Get another role asap, Try to get recs out of that role.
Apply, but keep in mind your chances will be dramatically worse if you apply while unemployed (hence, round 2 is probably your target).
Target schools that are friendly toward trading types. Do not do a stint at a startup and then say your goal is to go into trading (it doesn't make sense). Have some cohesion in the vision you layout in your apps.
Pm me if you want more details about how I approached it.
Thanks, I just sent you a PM. If I get a new role, I won't try to get recs, because it would look weird. ("You just started here and you want to leave?")
You should be able to have analytical skills and be able to focus on business intelligence and data analytic stuff -- I did some guerilla marketing and brand development stuff. It salso depends if you're joining a real start up or an established tech company
Wow, that is pretty messed up that they would not even give you warning or anything.
Echoing what people above mentioned, if you have cash stowed away for a rainy day, go and work for a start up while preparing bschool apps. The salary will be very little, but I'm sure it would make you look even better as a candidate.
I guess they didn't give me warning because I could take the trading strategies home and trade off of them. I've heard that many companies do the same thing to salespeople, because they don't want these salespeople to steal customer/contact info.
do you live in reality? first you have no non-compete lockup, second no real trading operation has a system so simple that a guy on his hewlett packard desktop can run at home.
Good post. I'd get involved with a charity or start up. Will help fill the gap and you can use this on your interview and essays for B school.
Gotta love how your boss tried putting the blame on the higher ups. As if he didn't tattle on you instead of writing a good employee a reference like most decent adults would do.
We only know one side of the story, judging from the facts given, I'd like to hear the other side. I give the benefit of the doubt to the company before this guy.
lol
The consensus here is start-up (I already do volunteer work so a non-profit is out). Wouldn't that complicate the goals essay because I have my CFA charter? ("Why did you bother getting the CFA charter if you’re not committed to this field"?)
I can try to get someone from there to rec me. Would it look bad if it wasn't my former supervisor? (Although I assume it couldn't be any worse than no recommendation)
You can always do more in depth non profit work. Just because you mentor a couple kids doesn't invalidate any involvement in it.
You're going to address the fact that you got axed and then decided to turn it into the best thing possible for yourself and, knowing you want to do xyz after v school, take advantage of the time now to follow a passion .
Interesting thread, and glad this discussion is out there.
And I gave you an SB for the graphic! Nice! First, getting fired is really kind of awful, having had it happen a few times in my own Wall Street career. I am not sure If I read it right, but if your immediate supervisor is still ok with you (ratting or not), it may make sense to keep him on as a recommender.
Having worked in the mutual fund business, I know how stodgy it can be. It's the least innovative industry in finance. So consider this all good news, as your candidacy for business school just got a lot more interesting if you take advantage.
As for what you do next, it really is kind of a cool opportunity to just do something really different; as ShorttheWorld says
which is what he did and it was a real game changer. I am sure he will be happy to tell you more :-) If there's ANY way you can go overseas to another country/culture, do it.Somebody mentioned applying to bschools friendly to traders. What schools are these?
I mean booth, sloan, Columbia are more friendly to traders than hbs/Stanford, but even there they're a lot less trader friendly than they used to be. Including myself, I only know 2 other traders who managed to get into M7 programs this year, and no one at hbs/Stanford.
Chicago Columbia MIT maybe stern
Wharton ?
Someone mentioned earlier PeaceCorps, which from my understanding is not easy to get into and looks great on a resume. There are all kinds of benefits to it and it makes you look well-rounded and experience another culture off the governments spending. That way you can get some of that money back you paid in:)
That sounds interesting but the program is 3 years long and I plan to apply this fall....
Yeah, that won't benefit you much then. Start-up has been mentioned a few times and that might be a good option to look into. It will give you great insight into starting a business and if my memory serves me correctly quite a few of the current b-school attendees have start-up experience. You may want to look to see what else they have in common and aim to put something similar or your resume. Who knows you might find something interesting that makes you want to forgo b-school.
Just my opinion, best of luck to you!
If I were you and my old boss wouldn't give me a good recommendation after all this, I'd toss and turn at night thinking of ways to make his death look accidental.
Just curious why are m7 b schools biased against traders? I am not a trader but some traders I k ow are the smartest people I've ever known. B schools are missing out it they turn down ppl from BB S&T or top prop shops.
It's truly awful. Top MBA adcom for the most part are made up of people who know nothing about trading or how difficult it is and the type of skills you have to hone on a daily basis. They just know the big name firms that feed into their schools and then look for "sexy" niche applicants who can round out their demographic and politically driven agenda. I got lucky with admissions, but it pisses me off to see my trader buddies get dinged everywhere this year. Some of their resumes put mine to shame.
MBA admissions is a lot of fluff, moreso than any other program I can think of.
A career in trading often doesn't lead to any opportunities to show leadership. It's quite an individualistic job, so that's one strike for trading.
B-schools have been trying to move away from the heavy banking focus pre-2008 so they can change their image a bit, so that's another strike against trading. Also, the job market for post-MBA grads has shifted toward more private equity/consulting roles vs. sales/trading roles.
Getting into b-school is not about being the smartest person, it's a lot more qualitative than that.
Finally, trading develops skills that are less transferable to post-MBA careers. A career in sales has more correlation with the career paths after an MBA.
High intelligence /= ability to manage, ability to speak well, being a team player, possessing lots of grace & poise
Shorttheworld
How did u get a job with a cool start up in an exotic location?
If bosses can be like this for those aspiring b school applicants what is the strategy in getting recommendation ??
Well, people have asked me to update them on my situation, so here goes:
Rather than attempting to find another buy-side job, quit in 9 months, and burn additional bridges, I decided to help a friend launch his startup. Juggling this + apps is challenging, but I hope I still have a chance of admission into my desired schools...
Good luck Tickles. I just read this now and your situation sounds awful. I'm currently worried about the same thing.
Your GMAT score is terrific though, so don't get down on yourself.
youll be fine :)
Thanks. I think the main challenge is to explain my departure.
"Why did you leave - this doesnt make sense for your post-mba goals" "Well if you were fired for that reason, you weren't such a good performer were you?"
nah, just say you wanted to apply to b school and the firm wasnt okayu with having someone on board who was gonna leave so they cut you and you took advantage of the situation to do something awesome you wanted to try for a year before your mba an also travel as well
Nonsense. Be honest.
"I was fired for asking for a recommendation letter because my company did not want me going to grad school. It was disheartening because I truly enjoyed my job, but at the same time I was not about to let it get me down. I took a job at a start up company to experience a more entrepreneurial environment to broaden my horizons and to help learn business from another perspective. I feel this will better help how I view companies in the future." -Tickling, in his optional "hardship" essay
Everyone has a shithead boss and you were very clearly fired for bs reasons. A poor MBA candidate would mope. You're doing something instead and being proactive. That's what leadership is.
Everyone has adversity in life and in business. It's how you respond to adversity that counts.
+1 SB, thanks
Hah, no worries man. Thank you for having a name that allows me to make horribly unfunny jokes about.
In all seriousness though, you got this.
what does the startup do and what type of tasks are you doing?
What schools are you targeting? What are your career goals?
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