Full Time vs Summer Analyst Recruiting

So I just finished the last of my interviews and not too positive of my odds. How does FT stack up vs SA recruiting assuming you have MM/boutique SA experience for 2 summer for FT and 1 boutique SA for SA recruiting? Does it tend to be easier/harder, and is there more or less emphasis on GPA?

 

SA recruiting for me was way harder than FT...mostly because I didn't know dick about finance. I'd say it gets easier as you do more live interviews (practice interviews in your career center can't simulate the same anxiety). I think firms expect a little more from you for FT recruiting, but if you've taken the interview process seriously, you should be well prepared by the time that comes around senior year.

 

I'd say they are more or less the same. It is easier to forgive someone's flaws when they are a SA just cause you're not stuck with them for the full two years. I think a lot of the MMs tend to take on less summers relative to the number of FT positions available than the BBs, so you may find MM FT recruiting a touch easier. Overall, a candidate doesn't vastly change between their junior and senior years, so if you weren't successful at SA jobs, you may find difficulty in FT recruiting.

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I've heard that they are more lax on FT recruiting. For example, SA recruits = 3.5 GPA if you are doing resume drop, whereas FT the GPA requirement tend to be lower. However, majority of banks fill their FT with their summers.

But you also have to keep in mind that for FT you are competing against kids in the same position as you (no FT offer, or didn't get a SA offer) so the competition is about the same since the strongest candidates would have already had offers.

 

Unless you don't get a return FT offer, I can't see a good reason to throw away a BB FT offer because it isn't prestigous enough. If you get a return offer you could leverage it in interviews, but the consensus you'll find here is that senior FT recruiting blows dick and you should avoid it if possible.

You can deal with CS/Bar/BAML for 2 years brah, there have been worse fates for WSO users.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with Stryfe on this one.

Work hard over the summer, get your offer - it's not that hard. By week 8/9/10 when the group starts dropping hints that you will be getting a FT offer, start hitting up your target shops via cold email. Explain who you are, that you have a return offer (once its official) from CS and that you're interested in the target firm. Chances are 75% of your target firms will at least give you an interview.

Once you get an interview, you'll be grilled on technicals and your deal experience from the summer. At that point it's really on you to get the job. And there is quite a bit of competition but the process moves really fast.

Senior year FT blows dick because its pretty much disappearing. The norm is now becoming accelerated FT recruiting because banks don't have to spend money on OCR fees and travelling the country to find you since you'll already be in NYC.

If you already have an offer under your belt, you have absolutely nothing to lose. If you keep reminding yourself of that, you'll end up somewhere great.

 

Just come to CBS if you want to hang w/ the cool kids... our class is shaping up nicely. Anyway, it's your call man. However, for most banking placement it seems to follow the trend that the internship is the gateway to the full-time offer as most don't recruit outside their summer associate class. With that being said, consultant the company you are potentially going to intern with and tell them your situation and see what HR says. Perhaps they will consider hiring you FT without the internship. You have to remember though that all an internship really is, at its core, is a 10 week interview. It's a way for the company to see if you can handle the work, have the drive and fit with the culture. So either way goodluck!

 

I haven't gone through FT recruiting but I would say more difficult because there are far fewer spots on offer (in some years some banks simply won't even do any FT recruiting). I wouldn't think the competition would be any weaker either because you'll have SA's from all over trying to trade up, it won't just be people who failed to get an SA.

 
wanderer:
It is on average more difficult but certainly not impossible. I did not even intern in banking but ended up with a FT gig at a BB.

Honestly, a lot of it just comes down to perseverance and luck. You need both.

FT gig at BB without a BB SA gig

I'm curious to hear your stats - going to be in this situation

AgainstAllOdds
 

Sorry for my naivety! Am new to this world. Does FT stand for Full-time and does SA stand for Summer Associate? Also, is there any place on this forum where all the acronyms have been explained? I see a whole host of acronyms being used and most of the times I run the risk of guessing them wrong.

Abhi
 

FT is generally worse than SA. This year a lot of banks cancelled FT hiring and just stuck to their intern class hires because of the economy.

Also what Kalga said, you are fighting for a few spots against experienced kids (people who may not have gotten offers from their SA) vs. SA interviews when you are competing for a lot of spots and the playing ground is a lot flatter.

 

I've gone through both, still technically going through FT recruiting now (I say technically because there are barely any jobs left on my university's careers site). Comparing last years SA recruiting to this years FT recruiting, FT was a lot more difficult only because of the scarcity of positions posted. On the positive side, SA recruiting prepped me well for my FT interviews I've had thus far (what kind of questions to expect, experience etc.)

 

I've gone through both, still technically going through FT recruiting now (I say technically because there are barely any jobs left on my university's careers site). Comparing last years SA recruiting to this years FT recruiting, FT was a lot more difficult only because of the scarcity of positions posted. On the positive side, SA recruiting prepped me well for my FT interviews I've had thus far (what kind of questions to expect, experience etc.)

 

If you're already in a top group at a decent BB (all of the ones you listed are at least "decent'), why would you want to switch to a "better" BB bank where you may very well get placed into a mediocre group?

To answer your question though, it's going to be very difficult. Banks over hire interns specifically so that they can take the pick of the best. On top of that, internal competition at top BB's for top groups is also pretty strong - you can bet that there are tons of kids in coverage groups at MS that want to transfer to MS M&A. Not saying it's impossible, but do temper your chances, like you said.

If you want to have a shot, your best chance is to get in to an accelerated super day, but even these are only used to fill slots that weren't filled by interns (not sure if this is how it works for west coast recruiting). Best of luck.

 

Your transition to a top-tier BB hinges on whether you get a return offer. An offer from a top group at any BB, given your profile, will provide you the leverage you need to make a very doable transition. Right now, your number one goal should be to work hard throughout your entire internship to secure that offer. I would say midway through, once you have experience to talk about and a gauge of whether or not you like your group and they like you, you should begin reaching out to alumni, friends, any sort of connection, but tread lightly, insulate your group from any networking attempts... send e-mails from a personal account on your phone, step out of the office to a safe location where you can make calls, and so on. Build connections early, and then reach out later, near the end of your internship, to try to get into some accelerated processes. There are always spots open at top banks - it's a matter of having name-brand leverage and the right advocate to push for an interview/offer. Also, cast a wide net - don't limit yourself to the tech. groups of GS and MS - they are fantastic, but there are also a ton of other spots out there with excellent exit opps, etc. as well. Follow my advice and things should go fairly smoothly. Good luck.

 

They can be formal or informal, often candidates who made it to final rounds and did not receive offers and went other places for the summer, or candidates that received offers and went to other places, are invited. Of course, networking is another way to get your foot in the door... stay in touch with your contacts, and build new contacts to push your resume. Based on my experience, accelerated processes are auto-final round interviews held around the time that banks hand out FT offers at the end of summer in order to preempt exploding offers and fill out classes with talent that wants to move, which is why using an offer as leverage is crucial. Search the forums and you may find more information.

 

statistically, it's easier to get a FT offer over SA - more available spots. Your interviews are going to be geared towards your summer experience and the deals you worked on and probably little more technical. you have to keep up with the recruiter during your summer internship to get on the accelerated process but the most important thing of course is to get an offer from whatever you're doing this summer and leverage that. hope this helps

 
alpha13:

statistically, it's easier to get a FT offer over SA - more available spots. Your interviews are going to be geared towards your summer experience and the deals you worked on and probably little more technical. you have to keep up with the recruiter during your summer internship to get on the accelerated process but the most important thing of course is to get an offer from whatever you're doing this summer and leverage that. hope this helps

this is backwards. more spots as SA than FT since most FT class is filled by summer SAs thus less open spots

 

I know someone who transitioned from a lower BB to a top group at GS/MS after being an SA at the lower bank. He did get his FT offer from the bank he interned with, but did so after he got the offer from the top bank. It was very difficult for him to do and he had to beat out a lot of people, but it was done. This is also from a non-target so that should give you some hope especially since you have a good GPA at a top school.

 

I'm not sure what the outlook is like for this fall, but last year there was almost no BB FT recruiting. From what I've heard, CHItizen's comments about accelerated recruiting are spot-on, and you kind of have to be on their radar already. I know of at least one person who arguably lateraled from SA to FT without a return offer, but the internship was at a top bank.

Array
 

I honestly didn't think there was that much of a difference. If you are a finance major they may grill you a bit more in depth since you have had an extra year of courses and such, and if you had an internship they will want to know about that, but overall I didn't experience that much of a difference.

 

If there's anything I would over study for, it would be the financial statements and how things flow through them.

For example: 1) A $100 increase in depreciation; assuming a 40% tax rate and 10 year straight line 2) Effects of buying, with cash, 100 dollars of equipment this year and next; same assumptions. 3) Same situation as 2; however, you fund with debt at a 10% interest rate.

Best, GoW

 
wannab2011:
hey,

how does FT compare to summer recruiting? will banks be hiring any FT who didn't intern with them?

any idea how the final full time analyst class looks like? 50 % SA or more

I would say FT in recent years has generally been much harder. Many banks have been overhiring SA classes and a lot of SAs choose to just accept their offers, leaving little room for further FT hiring. JPM, GS, UBS and Citi were all especially tough this year for FT.

 

I suspect it's a lot harder to land an internship (at least with the traditional BB IBD/S&T roles, definitely for consulting) than it is to get FT.

 

Does anyone think that the fact that many top candidates were removed from the applicant pool during the internship process could have a statistically significant effect on the competitiveness of full-time recruiting?

Eg. An intern at MS who accepts a FT offer at MS will not compete in the FT recruiting pool. I suppose the magnitude of this effect will be correlated with A) scale of internship program relative to FT recruiting needs and B) offer-worthiness of interns year-to-year.

 

Assuming you have an offer at a Top-10 bank, but wanted to interview elsewhere, would it then be a relatively similar difficulty as compared to the summer process, or would it still be tougher?

 

There are more FT positions than intern positions. So at a target school I would say its pretty similar, but from a non target interning is probably easier to break in the door because youre not competing with ppl that already have IB experience

 
madgames:
There are more FT positions than intern positions. So at a target school I would say its pretty similar, but from a non target interning is probably easier to break in the door because youre not competing with ppl that already have IB experience

i think you have to be careful here. at a lot of banks there are not more FT positions than intern positions (esp banks that have multiple waves of interns). at many target schools certain banks had 0 nyc spots left, and few regional spots left when FT recruiting came around....

 
tallon123:
you network with and apply to other banks during the summer and they arrange interviews for you in september before your summer offer explodes

your school should have a policy regarding that

 

I've done a few of these interviews (both sides of the table). I'd say that rather than just ask you to walk through a DCF, if we see someone with some experience, we'll ask them to walk through it in the context of the deals they've done.

They will also expect you to put more thought into your answers (not just understand the pure math, but also understand why certain relationships might hold, or why relationships might make sense nor not)

 

I was in your same shoes once. Prolonging graduation is not worth it. I know it gives you another recruiting cycle but you need to just suck it up, go hard and give it your all come fall. As a jobless first semester senior I still netted 15 first round interviews. You can do the same. Use your failure as a learning experience and you will dominate fall recruiting

 

I am also a junior at a non-target. I got lucky with a soph internship at Citi in I-Banking, but banking wasn't for me, so I tried the Quant track. They gave me an accelerated interview at the end of my internship for the junior internship this coming summer, so hopefully I can answer your question. Along with me, they let someone else who was a year ahead of me interview for full time. The only difference in interviews for internships vs. FT is that FT also interviews with 3 traders. Since interns can't trade because we're not licensed, they only have FT applicants interview with traders. Basically, the interview is comprised of a math test, a programming interview, a couple quick fit type interviews, a current events/financial knowledge interview, and a verbal math test. I'm not sure what the traders asked, but I'm sure that was more geared toward knowledge of the markets and the ability to think quickly.

 

Don't discount your time so heavily. if you graduate a year late, you will still have to put in your time as an analyst, associate, etc.

You shouldn't weigh the opportunity cost of 1 year entry level work versus 1 year of school. You should look at it from the other end: working an extra year as a senior banker/retiring a year early, versus that year of school. Don't fixate on the one job. There are plenty of quant desks out there for FT.

If it really starts looking grim, an MFE would be perfect for getting into quant trading.

 
B-Rock89:
Along with me, they let someone else who was a year ahead of me interview for full time.

Wait a sec I'm confused. You're a junior now but you interviewed for Full-Time? Are you saying only 2 people interviewed for full-time? Thanks for the info though, it's extremely helpful. I didn't even know that they had a "current events/financial knowledge" interview for the internship, I thought it was just math and programming (judging by the phone interview). What were the math questions like? I'm guessing brainteasers and probability stuff?

West Coast rainmaker: The only reason I'm fixing on that one job is because I go to a total non-target, but Citi just happens to recruit for that position here. Plus I don't know of any other BB's that have quant trader programs. But even if I applied to them, I doubt I'd get an interview. But you're right, prolonging undergrad for a year is prob a dumb idea. Assuming I can get into a decent MFE, I should do that instead (if I don't get the full-time job I want).

 

I'm a junior now and I interviewed for an internship this summer. The other guy interviewing was for FT. We got briefed on the process together since it was just the two of us interviewing so I saw what his interview schedule looked like.

The written math test was more about logical reasoning and spatial intelligence than raw math ability. There was one question that had to do with algebra, but the rest were similar to those you'd find in the brainteasers section of Heard on the Street. The spoken math test was some geometry and more brainteasers as well, but for that one, the point was more to explain the reasoning behind the answer than getting the right answer. Definitely spend a lot of time reading Heard on the Street. That was easily the key behind landing the offer. That and knowing your programming.

 

Alright thanks again man. When I interviewed, I was horrible at mental math and had done very little brainteaser prep (didn't know about "Heard on the Street"). Since then I've been building up my mental math skills and trying to make it a habit to do one "Heard on the Street" problem per day. I've come a long way since that botched interview, but still got a lot more work to do. Thanks again for the clarity. I'll msg you if I have any more questions (if that's cool with you).

 

Especially this year, there must be many students who interned at top-tier BBs, so it will be even tougher than previous years. Why don't you go through FT interviews, and then if things don't turn out you can go for internship.

 

I felt that it was pretty hard to get a summer internship, because everyone's competing and you really need great grades and former experience to get a look. However, for full-time, since most people accept their offers, the remaining offers are less competitive to get (assuming you did IBD at a reputable bank). Less firms recruit though for many less spots, so it's more difficult in that there's many less open spaces, but those spaces are somewhat easier to get.

 
firefighter:
I felt that it was pretty hard to get a summer internship, because everyone's competing and you really need great grades and former experience to get a look. However, for full-time, since most people accept their offers, the remaining offers are less competitive to get (assuming you did IBD at a reputable bank). Less firms recruit though for many less spots, so it's more difficult in that there's many less open spaces, but those spaces are somewhat easier to get.

myea, this is sort of how I was reasoning. the best people/toughest competition have already accepted offers.

 

It's true (at least at the analyst level). M/B/B take intern classes that are 1/4 - 1/2 the size of the full time class (with similar demand).

Why take so few interns? I've heard it explained a few ways: 1. Interns are hard to staff - there needs to be a case with the right timeline as well as a workstream that can be handled by someone with no experience. 2. More than BBs, M/B/B take interns with the intent to keep them for FT. 3. Balance of hiring between intern + FT rounds gives diversity of candidates (intern hires are more likely folks who are really good at school/ECs, FT folks might be more likely to have great work experience).

 

As an SA you are still hired based on your potential. Yeah, they know more about you, but it is still little more than a glorified 10 week interview. In this climate, SA is basically the only way to get into an analyst/associate program. At many banks, as high as 90% of incoming FT analysts/associates may come from programs--so that shows you just how much harder it is to break in during this type of economic climate.

 
lonestaffer:
As a SA, you have 10 weeks to constantly be judged. Easier to make mistakes, ruin relationships, etc.

When you interview for FT, you're hired based on your potential. Its easier to let go an SA than it is to fire someone once they've become a FT employee.

Sure, I know there are fewer spots for FT, but SA recruitment isn't necessarily easy either.

Don't think about it as 10 weeks to fuck it up. Man up and think of it as 10 weeks to impress them.

 
lonestaffer:
As a SA, you have 10 weeks to constantly be judged. Easier to make mistakes, ruin relationships, etc.

When you interview for FT, you're hired based on your potential. Its easier to let go an SA than it is to fire someone once they've become a FT employee.

Sure, I know there are fewer spots for FT, but SA recruitment isn't necessarily easy either.

In general, yes it is much easier. In your case, i suspect it will be much harder given how worried you are about being judged on performance. The good news is that even if you would have received a full time offer, they would have even more time to judge you and potentially fire you working there full time. So, it's probably better that you didn't have to go through all of that.
 

Since the guides are so accessible, its regarded as the bare minimum for interviews now. Interviews for SA weren't "harder" per se, but definitely a lot more outside the box thinking compared to previous years.

My intuition is that FT interviews would consist of case studies, modelling tests, presentations and the likes, but hopefully someone could shed a bit more insight.

 

I would have to say it is much, much easier to land a gig with a BB firm in a FT position.

It's really up to you though. What did you learn from screwing up an intern position? If you're willing to study up on the company more, practice your interviewing skills, and do as much as networking as possible, the FT should be yours.

This is assuming you're GPA won't kill you, you don't suck at life, and you go to a target school.

 

nice. i got the first two down (at least the first one, hope I do on the latter ;) ) dunno about the target though...Southern Methodist University in Dallas. Not a target, but we get our fair share of traffic (Bear is here, so is JPM and City, as is UBS). For the summer we got most of the BB going through, only GS had a resume drop, with the rest actually coming on campus.

 
ncichon:
dunno about the target though...Southern Methodist University in Dallas. Not a target, but we get our fair share of traffic (Bear is here, so is JPM and City, as is UBS). For the summer we got most of the BB going through, only GS had a resume drop, with the rest actually coming on campus.
true true
 

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