Getting Dinged - Fit Issues as an introvert
First post here. I'm a senior at a borderline semi-target school going through FT IB recruiting. Long story short, OCR at my school is thin, but I managed to get 2 super days with Southern MM banks. I believe I checked all the boxes in terms of technical preparation (personal study and interned at a tiny M&A boutique), networked with all of our alumni, and even was invited to visit one bank's NY office pre-interview.
The day of the super day, I was told I nailed all of the technicals, and they thought I was a good kid. I consider myself humble, motivated, and like everyone else - I want this badly. However, one interviewer mentioned "cultural differences" and that I was a bit shy.
Now, I can understand. I consider myself an extroverted introvert; I like to mostly be alone, but can definitely be gregarious with people that I like. The night before the super day, the bank hosted drinks at a bar, and I candidly had a goodtime with the analysts.
My questions is: what can I do to address possible "fit" differences with my interviewers? Throughout my interviewers, I can honestly say I consistently found connections with the bankers whether it was my interests in basketball, sports strategy, or barbecue grilling. If I get along with these analysts, but they just wouldn't want to be friends with me - is it just never meant to be?
After having what I feel are great conversations, am I just too different? What can I do if "there just isn't a fit"?
In what area of the country are you going to school? You could have honestly gotten dinged for not going to school in the South. This might sound silly, but these Southern banks, at least in my experience, love their Southern target schools and are very loyal to them.
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Just move on. Anything said here is just speculation without knowing you and the answers you gave. Honestly, people on WSO post some of the most inaccurate info on a lot of banks and then everyone believes them because of the mob mentality that exists. Sil is extremely knowledgeable though so I'd side with his opinion as a potential factor but nobody can say for sure.
BTW SunTrust robinson is good from my experience
Agree that OP should just move on. Let me blow your mind even more - what if "not the cultural fit" was just an excuse to say no to you? I understand that OP is trying to get some clarity on the situation, but WSO is not the place for that since 1. we don't know you, 2. we don't know with whom you interviewed at which company and 3. we weren't there when you were interviewing.
If your personality type is not fit for the job and company, you should move on. You can't fake that shit. During undergrad, people scoff at a firm and team's "culture", but it is VERY important, and you can't fake your personality every day.
Sometimes you get dinged just because somebody needs to get dinged.
This. Too often people put way too much thought into why they were dinged. Fit is just an easy excuse to say that they chose a candidate that they liked better. It doesn't mean that you aren't qualified or didn't interview well. They just liked someone else better.
If a group has 3 slots to fill, they are likely considering 20 or so candidates at the final round. There will be 1-3 people that blow everyone away. There might be another 5-7 that could do the job and 10 that are a "no" for personality or lack of technical ability. That group of 5-7 are all about the same, and if someone in the group is willing to pull hard for one of the candidates, they will get the job. Or it could be that they just hire someone's little brother.
Story: A little perspective from my days as a young monkey. I was a solid candidate at a semi-target entering senior year in the fall of 2001. Back then a lot more recruiting spots were saved for seniors versus how things are done today as summer analyst classes were much smaller then.
That said, take a look at the NASDAQ chart from Dec '00 to Sept 30, '01, if you want to see what a fun prelude to a finance recruiting season looks like...spoiler alert - the NASDAQ lost half its value over that time span. Also, Sept 11th had just happened so there was plenty of uncertainty around who would even be hiring.
One of the top Chicago MM banks (Blair/Baird) comes that Oct. to do on-campus interviews, and I crush it. Of the 25 or so kids they interview on-campus at my school, I am the only one invited to super day so I'm feeling pretty good about life. At the pre-super day cocktail reception, it looks like they've brought about 20 kids back for the super day. I'm sure each had a similar experience from their on-campus interviews and were the best of the best at their schools, and I thought at least the top 5-10 should get offers as I eyed up my competition.
I start talking to an analyst and associate at the bank who were alumns from my school, and I knew through some mutual friends. I had been out drinking with each on more than one occasion so I felt comfortable with them and asked for the inside scoop. They said that they mostly ran on-campus interviews to keep good relations with the schools they target. They only intended to hire 1-2 people TOTAL for the next year's class. At that point my goal goes from being one of the top handful to being the top candidate.
I go in with a clear head the next day, and I nail my interviews. I thought I had a shot. But, not unexpectedly, I get a call later the next day informing me that I got dinged. I called up the associate I knew to ask for feedback, and he said I did great and was one of their top people, but they decided to hire Joe Blow from Notre Dame whose older brother already works at the bank so he had more senior level support.
The point of all of this is that sometimes it's beyond your control no matter how well you do in the interview.
Yes, that's what I felt in those superdays. I felt so lucky to finally get one. We just need to move forward and try to nail the next one, then wish for the best. Thank you for sharing the experience!
Honest to god, I'm the same personality type, so you either are just really awkward at least in interviews or the firms you interviewed for have shit culture, in which case you're better off elsewhere.
OP posted: "Now, I can understand. I consider myself an extroverted introvert; I like to mostly be alone, but can definitely be gregarious with people that I like."
You realize that in iB you're working with "other people" in close quarters for 70-100 hours/week for years on end??? More importantly, with the A-types that are drawn to this business, you'll 100% work with at least some people you just can't like!
I can only read what you wrote down, but it seems you'd likely not do well on "fit questions" with these kind of responses...
Think "airport test".
Recruiting in the south is a bit tough sometimes. Offices are small and they look for replicas of themselves (same frats, circles, interests, etc.). Team pages of southern firms are often very homogeneous
Agreed. I also wouldn't be surprised if they was an implied bias against lgbt or URMs in the south.
Grab coffee with someone you interviewed with at the superday and try to coax them into spilling why you were dinged. If they like you, they're going to be honest. It could just be that there were better kids - there are limited spots everywhere, so you can kill a superday and still miss out.
I'm a VP currently and have had a bunch of people aggressively follow up for feedback after interviews / / superdays / summers not getting offers. I find it awkward and unhelpful. Would instead recommend following up with an email thanking the interviewer for their time, acknowledging you didn't get it, giving a brief update on the status of your search more broadly and reiterating your commitment to getting into banking. If I had a good interaction with the candidate and got a note like that but the firm couldn't get comfortable with giving an offer, I would ask to be kept up to speed and to the extent possible, would reach out to my buddies at other firms to help.
I said coax it out of them at coffee. I don't think anyone is ever going to mention the reason someone was dinged over email (at least I hope), but if you grab coffee and for 99% of the time look for advice on other options/reiterate your interest, I think a lot of people will be willing to offer up as much advice as possible including the reason that you didn't make it.
This has worked for me 2/2 times fwiw, but it's worth noting, I knew both of these guys prior to interviews (one even did digging with colleagues to figure out why).
As said previously, "cultural issues" is a pretty generic reason to ding someone. It could be that there were better candidates, you're less outgoing than you think, some Southern thing, racism, etc. Move on and keep plugging away.
Not getting hired because lack of Fit (Originally Posted: 02/02/2017)
Hi all,
I have a problem that I was hoping you guys might help me with.
Currently interviewing mostly for off-cycle internships later this year. In my country they are pretty standard, so the process is fairly standardized at most places; assessments, 2 rounds of interviews etc..
Anywho; last year while I was still doing my bachelors I was interviewing and got rejected a couple of times because my motivation was "too generic". Looking back they were absolutely right, and that is something I have fixed.
This year I got 1 internship I am completing as part of my masters, but also want another internship at an actual investment bank before I start applying fulltime. I got rejected in final rounds by 2 banks where they told me: You seem a great candidate, good technical skills, great answers to all our fit questions etc., but we don't see you fitting in. (1 noted that at a larger office they probably would have given an offer).
During interviews I do my best to be enthousiastic, not try to be a robot answering questions and hopefully showing I'm a fun guy to have around - which I am Apparently failing at.
It would be great if anyone (maybe someone who regularly interviews people) could shed some light on what bankers are looking for in terms of fit, personality etc.!
Take this with a grain of salt, as you can't really tailor your inherent "fit" to be truly universal - some firms will lean more towards jock, athletic types, while others will lean towards more academic and intellectual types.
If there's no real set standard and you think you're just coming off as too rehearsed, try approaching interviews the same way you would meeting someone at the bar, or a first date. Obviously, toned down a bit, but the trick is to come off as sincere and relaxed, not uptight and nervous. They want to get a sense for who you truly are in the interview process, and if they can sense that all you are showing to them if a bunch of rehearsed answers and your resume only lists "Travel, Films, Sports, and Hiking" on your "interests", it doesn't give them a good insight into if they'd get along with you for 12+ hours a day.
I sense that the issue with you is that many firms can tell that you're coming off as slightly "manufactured" and can't get a real sense for who you really are, so they lean away in favor of other candidates who they could tell were being genuine. Just relax and if it helps, go out in your city and just strike up conversation with people to get comfortable meeting someone new and not having answers memorized.
Great advice- thank you!
W&M?
Sounds like you got a little to drunk with the analysts the night before.
But seriously man, there are not a lot of slots open at southern MMs. I would be surprised if they were taking 3 analysts that summer, and even more surprised if those three weren't all from one of about 5 state schools.
Hit the gym dude. It's your only out. Basically they're saying that they wouldn't like to hang out with you because you're not very good looking. Hate to say it, but it's true. I see it all the time. When I say hit the gym, I mean it.
Not that it really matters, but being an introvert has nothing to do at all whatsoever with being shy; they are fundamentally different personality traits. I'm a hardcore introvert and nobody--ever--has said that I'm shy.
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