Goldman Sachs - Operation Analyst Salary 2009
Hey all,
I just received an offer from Goldman Sachs' Operations Division in Singapore. (Full time)
I'm not too crazy about the job since its in operations, but I have been wanting to move to singapore ever since the beginning of my university career. So, I thought it might not be a bad idea to move there with GS.
However, the initial offer they gave me is very low and I'm not sure if that's something I can live off of in Singapore (given the huge amount of student loan I have).
So, I thought I'd post a forum on here for anyone who has experience in salary negotiation.
Questions:
- How much are analysts in ops getting paid these days anyways?
- Should I even negotiate? or simply decline the offer?
thanks for all your help in advance.
SR.
I have a friend who got an offer for Ops in Salt Lake City, and the pay is about $42 K...
I got an offer a couple weeks ago from GS Ops in Salt Lake City, it is for $42K, $10K relocation, and discretionary year end bonuses. Does any one know what the year end bonus in Ops are like?
Hi, I also received an offer in GS Ops in NYC, the salary is $55K and $10K relocation too. I have heard that the discretionary bonus are like $10K for the 1st year. We are back office employees, this is not were the company makes the money. Maybe for second year the bonus can be higher.
It was quoted in SGD of course... and I wasn't expecting a high salary; but this was even low for Ops... I'm not even sure if I can live off of that locally, let alone away in Singapore...
I know that in North America it is impossible to negociate analyst salaries...
was wondering if rules might be different in Asia? I mean... 30K US is pretty much poverty in North America... And I also checked with a friend in singapore... who said, people with monthly income below 5000 cannot even get a credit card...
No negotiation. I wish I could've negotiated my IBD base. Trust me it's useless to try, they can easily get another state school kid who is unemployed in this job market to fill the job, just like they can get any other kid on the waiting list to take an IBD spot if some kid is stupid enough not to take the job due to the base salary.
I guess the obvious choice here is to decline the offer...
I do hold a masters degree in finance (at a reputable school). Have several other interviews lined up for PE and IB firms... but the problem is... I don't want to stay local... so wanted to seek the first singapore opportunity that came up; and was hoping maybe I'll find another job while i'm there.
but 30k is waay too little...
Go teach English in Singapore. They pay bank.
If you'r going to decline anyways, there's no harm in trying. Tell them that you actually want to work for them and are excited about living in Singapore, but you feel the compensation is not competitive (be articulate and polite about this).
Starting salary in Asia (SG/HK) tends to be lower. I think your salary of about 3-4k (SGD) a month is about par for a graduate.
wawaweewa, are you working in Asia?
Do you know if this type of salary will meet the avg living standard in Singapore?
Hey snowrice,
Actually, I am at exactly same position you are at now. I've got offered by Operation division in Singapore two days ago, and was surprised too about the same range of low base salary. I do have master degree in Engineering degree from reputable school in the States.
Working abroad and Goldman Sachs look very tempting but I think too that the salary is much lower than I expected. Where did you get the job offer by the way in Canada?
It seems like it's not possible to negotiate salary for analyst though.
Yeah; I did get it in Canada;
I'm probably going to decline... because it is impossible for me to live off of that... converting that to local salary... is pretty much poverty.. (one can work 1.5 McDonald jobs and get paid higher than that... tehahaa) I do believe the job prospect is not that horrible and given my background, I do hope to find something at least above average;
what about u? what's ur plan? did you already receive ur offer package? or is it a verbal estimate?
harder to find an opportunity overseas at this point... no?
why dont u just go to singapore and take the job and look for something else while you are there. if ur working operations u probably have time to do other stuff like a 2nd job and stuff or just look for other jobs.
thanks for your advice; that's something I was seriously considering as well... I'm done school after Feb... and the job doesn't start until july-ish... so I have several months to prep myself and grab a CFA level (if possible).
then, head to Singapore prepared; but I guess my concern is that I don't have much previous work experience (besides a term at a boutique venture capital firm). So, finding a job there maybe even tougher than in Canada; but i guess, i'll never know until I go for it and try right?
going to gs operation singapore next july. from vancouver. but i didnt ask anything about the salary yet. are you sure the pay is as low as 30k SGD?
its 45K SGD... which is about 30 something in USD... (or CAD)
U going for sure? you decided?
they are sending me the pakage to vancouver i am still waiting for it. u got the offer in paper already? I did nt ask about the salary so if it is 45k sgd i probably wont go. the rent is above 2k per month.
45k SGD is not that low for a grad and you can cover your living expenses in Singapore. Tax + Food + Lodging and other general expenses dont even come close to the levels in the US.
I don't think you should convert SGD to USD, if you're working in SG and spending there then the local currency is all that matters. I think you should just be prepared for lower salary levels (comparative to US) if you want to work in SG as a grad
thanks the for advice wawaweewa;
I realize there will be a pay cut if I worked in Singapore.. but unfortunately, I do have student loans on top of the living expenses... and a salary that barely covers living expenses is going to be tough to manage; regardless where I live...
but at least I have a good idea as to what this salary looks like relative to the avg...
gs gives any housing allowance ?
Just wondering, don't you guys get overtime in operations? That is a good 20% in addition to your paycheck. If you stay really long you can probably earn same base as front office.
I actually have noo clue if we do or not... I have yet to receive the paper document... the 45K quote is based on what the HR told me when i asked...
but will keep u updated;
they said it'd be a one time thing... re-locating support...
dunno how much...
thanks snowrice. maybe there s signing bonus in addition :)
I think i will wait until everything s clear and then decide to go or not. I heard operation is super busy no less work than ibd but very low pay. im still waiting for other offers so, i will keep you posted too. but 45k is really far below my expectation.
I do hold nationality of one of the Asian countries. I expected higher wages since the firm is the top financial firms in the world.
However, the reality is that the salary in Singapore is almost same level of salary in Korea and Japan for top financial companies like GS and others.
I expected higher wages since I thought I would get the salary based on US standard, but it seems my just dream. Based on the standard of Asian countries, the entry-level salary in GS seems reasonable for sure.
It's not super competitive like in the US, but common in Asian countries, Japan, Korea, and others. That is why all the Asian students in US want to get a job in the States, paying you much more than in their own countries.
I think the salary is far below my expectation too.
I just got verbal offer. HR person will send the official offer letter soon I guess.
I'm Canadian; but I can speak and write mandarin and Cantonese (parents trained me well.. lol)
I"m gonna spend some more time on job hunting after graduation i think.. in canada;
what about u? are u planning on going or no?
Give me your email addresses if you don't mind. Since we do have same offers, it's more convenient to communicate via emails, even though you guys might decline the offer.
Thanks!
my email [email protected]
Operations in SG pay considerably higher (~SG$3700/mth) than the average starting salary of a fresh business graduate (~SG$2400-2800/mth), so it's not a bad deal. Unfortunately it comes up real short when you compare it to starting finance salaries in the US. That said, plenty of kids from local universities in Singapore would be more than willing to have that job.
for those who wanna know about their offer...
there's no signing bonus either... and the relocation "help" is not in monetary terms... it just means they'll help u move... "literally"... lol and set u up with temp. housing until u find ur own place..
Working at Singapore still makes you unique and gives you broader perspective in your career for sure. As you know, Singapore is a rising nation for a hub for Asia and Japan is kind of already saturated. So, SIngapore and other asean nation would have alot of things going on near future.
Name value of GS and working in Singapore might be enough to compensate the low salary. And usually, starting salary except IB division is usually not high for every where compared to the name value of GS, I heard. But they have big increase in salary annually and bonus will be quite impressive.
GS usually screws over its employees (especially back office) in pay 'cause it knows it has a stronger name and can pay less, rather than more.
Hey all,
Regardless of the relatively low salary, Is it that easy to get in back office of GS? or still it's hard to get in? Do I have to be proud myself being a part of GS still? Or lower salary represents that I should not?
I just checked with my colleges from business field and they said that usually a starting salary is lower than you thought for GS or other top financial companies. But there is for sure a bigger increment in salary annually compared to other firms. I know the the salary for Singapore is not high, but it's almost same as other asian countries, Japan and Korea I know.
What do you guys think?
Ski: of course you should be proud of where you work, don't listen to the haters here
quicktiger: usually 1k to 5k. In the 2007 years when 1st year IBD got 90k, u might've seen 10k but those days are over.
Hi, thanks for your comment. It seems like you know much more about the bank and financial companies.
If you don't mind, could you tell me what kind of work in Ops division do? I know that there are many parts within Ops division, but if you could give me a broad picture, it would help me better.
Thanks!
Hi, thanks for your comment. It seems like you know much more about the bank and financial companies.
If you don't mind, could you tell me what kind of work in Ops division do? I know that there are many parts within Ops division, but if you could give me a broad picture, it would help me better.
Thanks!
I did PWM at GS, which I guess is "glorified" ops at the analyst level since we all support the advisor. I'm not sure I understand your question but I think you are asking what kind of work Operations does in general? If so, it really depends.
One group can be about projects and efficiency of logistics but most operation units are based off trading and settling the different trade desks such as Commodoties, Equities, etc. You will do a lot of calling up back offices of other clients and/or following up on trades that don't clear. You also try to improve processes and decrease the number of fails a day.
Though it depends what group you are in such as IBD ops, trade ops, etc. at the end of the day all you really do is follow up on front office work and make sure that what they do goes through.
Thank you boutiquebank4life for your information.
So, if we want to pull out the "good part" of operation division instead of low salary or working for not important thing like people in front office, can we say that we also can learn many things which are going on in the front office as the entry level, or could obtain a broad perspective about how he system of the entire firm runs with? People here might say right things, but inclined to be negative things. I believe that even though it's back-office, there are many things I can learn and advantages as well as an entry-level.
Thanks.
Greetings from Singapore. I went for the same interviews but it seems that I'm on hold pending your declinations since HR just contacted me a couple of days ago saying they needed more time to decide.. ;)
chanky's right that SGD45k is definitely above average for the grads here. But they're not near figures for the IBD/S&T or consulting (SGD60-75k), plus most Singaporeans still live with parents for the first few years after graduation and have almost no student debt to clear.
So I guess you guys have a tough choice to make - you can probably get more in the US but this might be your stepping stone into Asia. For myself, I'm accepting an offer from a UK bank for its MA programme - not IBD, but at least some front office and syndication exposure, possibly closer interaction/networking with the IBD FO.
Cheers.
zoul, thanks for this information; and congrats on ur offer!
just a quick question, given the 45k salary; what kind of living style can I expect? (given i'm not a big spender and assuming there are no extra added expenses such as student loan)
thanks!
I found out that analyst position at Operation in NY office not tends to be around 50-60K. Considering NYC's super-expensive style, I also think that low salary of Singapore office many people say is not that low. I mean that it's not the same, but surviving in NYC with 50-60K is not super-different from surviving in Singapore with S45K, I guess.
I grew up in SG, and here is what I think:
You have a $3700 salary. Taxes are 15%, and 20% in CPF compulsory savings (you will get the money back only when u leave SG) gives you a disposable salary of ~$2500/mth
Food: You can have a good meal for $4-5 in a hawker center, or ~$7-8 at a nicer food court. There are also expensive restaurants out there. That makes it ~$20/day including breakfast, or $600/mth.
If this site http://www.rentinsingapore.com/current_rental_market_rates is any legit, then rents will be roughly $1000-2000 for a 1 bedroom in a decent location.
Transport: Perhaps ~$1.75 per bus/train trip, $3.5/day or $105/mth.
What you have left is probably $500 for your discretionary expenses. You'll get a lump sum of CPF savings back once you leave SG for good though.
Now that I think of it, pay is really low in SG. You might get by with ops pay in the US (maybe except in NYC), but it's definitely tough in SG. I guess the only way SG grads get by is that college tuition costs ~SG$8000 a year, and you can graduate in 3 years.
congrats on the offer! did you apply to just Singapore? I'm also from Canada, and I applied to Hong Kong and China. Last email i got i was told that i'll hear back this week. It's not looking good.
just wondering who sent you the offer? Do you know if anyone got the offer to other Asia offices?
thanks chanky for the breakdown; that's indeed very very informative!
and just wondering, the 20% CPF... is that taxed at all upon leaving the country? or can I expect to get this exact lump sum back upon leaving for good?
CPF deductions are generally not required for foreigners here in Singapore unless you decide to pursue permanent residency here later on or if GS has a practice of voluntary deductions (gotta check your letter of offer) . But just fyi, CPF itself will not be taxed whether upon deduction or when you leave SG.
chanky's pretty accurate with the breakdown of living expenses but I might add that property rent will only increase from 2010 onwards. The market here's recovering post-recession.
Good luck in making your decision! Cheers.
Do I get back the money after like tax return in US?
Yes, you get all the CPF back in cash after you leave SG.
what was the interview process like?
My opinion is that it is not worth the expenses going to SG unless you are starting out in IB, AM, Research, S&T or Private Banking. The salaries are simply not high enough for rent and a decent lifestyle. Living standards wise, it's probably better to work in the US.
i like to chew gum...... excel blue+silver are like my children. -____-
I'm not sure how much GS operations will help you break into the Asian market. Not that it's bad, but It is operations after all and there are a ton of asians with banking operations experience. I think industrial operations experience (from US/EU/CA) is much more valuable in Asia than banking operations experience.
Seems like snowrice, firstarhxy, bluebirds, and me. Let's share the information.
I'm surprised that GS would hire so many internationals for their operations division in SG. Good thing I didn't choose to continue my education in SG.
hey mioka, that definitely sounds more like it; i guess all the offers in the US get the 10K relocation; I guess they get cheap in asia... lol
Hey agree with Chanky. Assuming you are taxed locally, everything else is cheap. When it comes to accommodation, assuming GS is not looking one for you, try not to stay in the City cause the rents are excessive. Public transport in Singapore is superb (esp the trains). CPF is kinda a bitch esp if you only want to work here for a couple of years.. I do agree that 45K is quite small, but relative to the locals here, its a respectable pay.
Work aside, living in SG is fun due to its distance to places like Bali, Phuket, islands in Malaysia and so on. Absorb the culture, its always an eye opener (although alcohol here is relatively expensive)
Congrats on the offers and yes working in GS will always be a prestige.
Mioka, where did you get the job from? Your school in the States? Or Boston Fair?
If I think of going to law school after 2 or 3 years working
which is the better decision to make:
Top financial company in SG such as Goldman Sachs paying you like 35K
Pro for 1: Pay more and relatively easy going work environment Cons for 1: bored of engineering
Pro for 2: Regarding my background with multi-cultural, working in SG would give me more cultural experience in rising financial hub for ASEAN countries. I am the person who wants to work very hard in dynamic environment who communicates with people alot. Cons for 2: Pay less
I'd take the engineering, assuming you are doing engineering related work as opposed to merely finance. It'll be even more appealing if it is some kind of rotational program. I think you'll get more chances to lead and shine in your role in engineering rather than in back office banking operations even though it is GS.
hi guys ... i believe i could also be looking at Ops in Singapore. However I am in the final round and have a good shot at being a consulting analyst at Accenture (in Toronto).
Any thoughts? I, like the rest of you guys, have a strong affinity towards living in Asia but not sure if I'm ready/willing to give in to the pay cut. I get paid ~4600 USD/month right now as an Engineering Business Analyst Intern ...
Also, just how many offers are they handing out in GS Ops? seems like ther tossin out offers like candy over there ...
cheers,
lots of banks are throwing out offers for FT, even front office, but more competitive for front office due to grades/school. i know ops is pretty competitive too but among non-targets and both front+back have around the same # of entering analysts.
hm.
snowrice, I'm based in Singapore.
PM me with more details if you want to find out more about the living standards, etc...
Hi! I also got the offer for gs operation in singapore:) I am actually quite excited to go there and start a whole new life, cultural experience and etc. But I was also surprised by the compensation especially about the relocation parts especially its such a renown company, but I think I might just as well accept the offer.
Does someone happens to know how the training program will be like for the analysts?
Hi, where did you get the job? Are you from the US? Are you an Asian?
wondering anyone is going to GS office in beijing? how's the situation there? thanks
what group bbf
operation division. just got the offer from beijing office. the pay is also not exciting. wondering if anyone knows anything about the group there.
hi!!!!! ya well i got the job in the states and yes i m an asian! how bout u? r u still thinking about whether to accept the offer? i wonder how the compensation and office r like for gs in asia.
Let's talk on the email. Let me know your email address and I will contact you!
this is an interesting thread - so are you guys going to take up the offer?
Hey guys!!!
Soo... now that we've received the offer package.... lets chat about it... hopefully asap... as I gotta talk to the HR lady soon to have her walk me through the package... and see if we can get together for an online chat?
PM me asap if youre on the same boat!
Dude, its Goldman Sachs. Sign the damn paper! Get in first and find a way to move around.
but is GS known for lateral movement??
ops is not really a bad thing but its not a good thing either
Hahahaha, Goldman sachs is perhaps the epitome of structure and disdain on back office. They are the flag bearers who lead the charge on the practice of shitting on internal transfers of any kind, even FO to FO if it meant from ER to IBD or PWM to S&T. The only bank known to do BO/MO to FO is now dead, aka Bear Stearns; the scrappiest firm of them all.
apparently you don't work at GS. we had 2 people in our business unit who went from ops to the trading desk, one who went to sales, and another handful of S&T people who actually moved to assoc./VP roles in ops. ability to lateral internally is definitely there if you have the passion and talent and actively demonstrate it. can't speak for ops to IBD transitions however, as there is normally less correlation between the 2 divisions.
and from what i've heard: expected 2010 Ops 1st yr analyst comp in NYC/NJ = $55k base + $10k signing/reloc. + $5k to $15k OT pay + $5k to $15k y.e. bonus = $75k to $95k total comp, depending on hours, group and personal performance.
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