Hard work and sacrifice will get you only so far

Mod Note (Andy): This post by @SSits" is a comment originally posted in this thread "Karōshi": Death from Overwork on Wall Street" and I thought it deserved it's own spot on the frontpage

MBAGrad2015:
Yeah banking sucks in terms of work-life balance, but you don't succeed without hard work and sacrifice.

Good god, you Americans love your cliches.

A lot of people succeed without hard work or sacrifice, particularly people who are good at sales.

The people who are fixated on the false equation of "hard work + sacrifice = eventual success" in banking are typically the naive analysts and associates stuck on their hamster wheels.

Banking is a meritocracy, but often the definition of "merit" is not what your American myths of boot-strapping, hard work and sacrifice etc schooled you to think.

EDIT:

A major cause of burn out is when naive analysts and associates despair to themselves, "I'm working so hard, why is success not coming to me for my hard work and sacrifice, like the legends promised? DOES NOT COMPUTE!"

It's because your education system and surrounding myths of success convince you to think that if you work hard and sacrifice, you will certainly get to the top. "You go girl!" and all that Oprah Winfrey shit, or its male equivalent (eg "you don't succeed without hard work and sacrifice").

I see plenty of smart kids who aren't smart enough to think around their programming, smashing their heads into the wall of a stalling career, stumbling back, then smashing their heads against the wall again because they adamantly believe HARD WORK + SACRIFICE is the only key to success.

Hard work and sacrifice will get you only so far.

And often, there are faster alternatives to get to the same level of success (although that often means having a lot of natural talent and/or connections).

Dumb-arse persistent belief in high school mythology is not the only cause of career burn out, but it's certainly a big one.

 

SB+, I liked your line, "A lot of people succeed without hard work or sacrifice, particularly people who are good at sales. " So accurate, and I do believe many Americans think their path to success is as linear as work hard + sacrifice= success.

#REF!
 

oh god, shut up. Talk about cliche's. Nothing more annoying than the "shit on the cliche" cliche. Another all-knowing, self-righteous Canadian cliche.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

I used to want to make all the money, have some title by my name, etc - all I cared about was how "successful" (whatever that even means) I was/would be and how I measured up to my peers. Now my biggest fear is getting old, I just want to live my life and enjoy it and try not to have regrets - have experiences like travelling or doing something wild/crazy. I don't even really care anymore about making a lot of money or whatever. If I made 10 mil a year, what would I really spend it on? Sure, there's plenty of things to spend it on but I feel like not a whole lot of it would really increase my level of happiness.

There's so many dumbass kids on this forum that would probably suck schlong to get this or that....and really, I can't sit here and say shame on them - I was the same way just a few years ago and you couldn't have told me anything then either. I was willing to do anything (no homo sh*t) thinking it'd make me a millionaire or successful or this or that. I think as the years progress, their attitudes will change - when you're all of 19 or 22 years old, the world looks a lot different

 
BatMasterson:
SSits:

A lot of people succeed without hard work or sacrifice, particularly people who are good at sales.

And you think that skillset just falls out of the sky ?

Not in all cases. But I have met quite a few people who are natural salesmen.

And I've met many bankers who are great at sales and are out enjoying themselves while angsting analysts grind away back in the office.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 
David Aames:

thanks for posting that annoying street sign stock image to get our attention

if you have to ask the question you did, you'll never get it

Another fucking enlightened philosopher.

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

+1. A wise (and very successful) man, when I asked him how he got to where he is today, told me that his secret to success was making sure he always hired the most hardworking people who were willing to make sacrifices for success.

 

Success is learning how to convince other people to do the work for you, paying them less than you make off it, and pocketing the difference. Repeat until wife is half your age and you can't decide which sports car to drive to the beach house. Suckers slave away at horrible hours/jobs for their entire waking life in hopes of success. Be efficient doods

 
spitbloodTCU:

Success is learning how to convince other people to do the work for you, paying them less than you make off it, and pocketing the difference. Repeat until wife is half your age and you can't decide which sports car to drive to the beach house. Suckers slave away at horrible hours/jobs for their entire waking life in hopes of success. Be efficient doods

best & most useful post in this thread
Array
 

I agree with SSits.

I don't think the point is that hard work and sacrifice are not required. Rather, they are only part of the equation. There are uncontrollable factors such as opportunity and luck, controllable factors such as networking and environment, and lastly personal factors like attitude and personality that all play a part in how successful a person is.

Lastly - Success is relative, on WSO it mainly means rich, but outside of WSO it can mean many other things.

 

i think you're missing the point

with many things in life, there's a shorter/more efficient path to get to the end goal. more likely in processes that are flexible (less so in strict finance roles perhaps).

whether it takes "working smarter", wits, finding the proper people to fill in your gaps, looking at things from a different perspective, etc etc, there are often ways to find these shortcuts that one may not see from the surface.

working hard to finish that project and complete the goal is great, but did it take twice as long and/or twice the effort than it should have?

my advice, and i think echoes the overall point of the post, is before undertaking a new project - stop & think: "is there a better way that this can be done" - sounds simple, but is easy to forget, especially when you're overworked/sleep deprived/behind/working out of fear/in a hurry etc etc

to add another cliche to this thread, "you can't see the forest from the trees"

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breaking habits and rebuilding solid habits is really freaking difficult. I don't know if it's a talent per se, but some people are definitely predisposed to having more malleable habits and behaviors or can control those more easily

Make Idaho a Semi-Target Again 2016 Not an alumnus of Idaho
 
Best Response

In my early 20s, I really believed that in order to succeed all you need is work really hard. You gotta be gritty to succeed. You gotta put in long hours to be successful. You gotta be very good at technical things and establish yourself as a thought leader in particular domain. I don't think all of these assumptions are necessary wrong - they are necessary building blocks in your 20s. But if you still doing that in your 30s in this mindset, you are doing everything wrong.

Things to focus in your 30s: Improve your communication skills: It covers writing, speaking, and also non-verbal communications. For recently turned 30, in the last few years, I find this extremely annoying. I always thought to myself, "this is bullshit - he knew I didn't meant it this way - he is twisting my words". But as you move up in the career ladder, being able to communicate well is extremely important. This brings up to my next point.

Dress the part: I am not saying that wear a suit all the time. In some case, that might actually be a bad idea. In order to do your job well, you really need to dress the part. Meeting with clients at outdoor (hunting season), ditch the suits. Doing a town hall meeting with local folks for your social organization - ditch the suit; put on a polo shirt with jeans or casual dress shirt (roll up your sleeve) with a khaki pant. If it were a high-end charity event, get a tux. It took me awhile to accept this. I always thought that "this is fucking stupid; why can't I wear whatever the fuck I want - I have my fucking right." Dressing the part is also an important way of communication.

Be a connector: You have already built up your resume as a technical expert in your 20s. Your 30s is all about putting it all together. My favorite analogy is learning how to use different weapons (i.e. sword, gun, hand to hand combat, explosive) in your 20s. But when you get to 30s, it is more about thinking in term of how to use the right combinations of right weapons to get things done. Is this a undercover operation (corporate espionage)? Is this a boardroom warfare? Is this a hostile takeover (time to dig dirt against your target)? Net net, what I am saying is that your jobs in your 30s is learning how to best package yourself learning how to utilize all of your skill sets in a perfect way. Another analogy is like learning how to fight. You might have picked taekwondo, judo, karate, BJJ, muay-thai in your early 20s. But when you get to your 30s, it is all about winning the fight. No one give a shit if you were a blackbelt in taekwondo, you are in the fucking UFC. Your job is to knock your opponent out no matter how he comes at you.

Managing people: I have seen a lot of people who are really good analysts and associates but really terrible vps and mds. The problem is that they are still thinking like an associate. They just want to become a better version of associate - not knowing that you have to learn a whole new skill sets to move up. When you move up, you spend more time managing clients and political bickering. This is just a part of the process. Maybe a deal can be struck over a napkin scratch without going through thousand of pitches. Maybe a deal falls through but this allows you to work on your next deal. You also need to learn how to train your generals (vps) to work for you willingly in your best interest. And that has nothing to do with being an excel monkey.

Giving back to community: Some may think that this is all pro-bono bullshit but being an important member of your community is extremely important for your success at work. If people see you taking a leadership position in your community, you will attract the right person (i.e. clients, future employees, investors, sponsors). You will be the go-to person; with that political capital, you build up your network. Your powerful network bring you news (a lot of nonpublic info that you can get a leg up against your competition) - be in deal sourcing, introducing the right partners and hiring the top executive for your firm.

 

You want a real cliche to live by?

Here's one for you. "You can marry more in 5 minutes than you can make in a lifetime."

There's some food for thought.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

Generally, I think of success being determined by something along the lines of Effort x Talent; the more talented you are, the less effort you need to put in than someone who is less talented. Unfortunately, depending on the skill, frequently natural talent will always beat out working hard from the ground up with no natural talent.

Make Idaho a Semi-Target Again 2016 Not an alumnus of Idaho
 

What are you alternative suggestions then?

“It is our fate to be tormented with large and small dilemmas as we daily wind our way through the risky, fractious world that gave us birth” Edward O. Wilson.
 

Work hard but know your talents. No point in working your butt off if you have no shot, and in any field, being able to utilize your edge over your competitors will get you pretty far.

Make Idaho a Semi-Target Again 2016 Not an alumnus of Idaho
 

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

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