Recently got a risk analyst offer at a BB. Prior to receiving the actual contract details, I already had in mind what to expect based on what prior year analysts were offered etc.
However, HR gave me a figure lower than what every single person had told me. I was on an industrial placement before this, so I feel like they just added a small premium to what I was getting (50%+ discount to street) and tried to pass it off as a "promotion". Basically they're offering me below the standards that they've offered other 1st years, but slightly better than my current comp.
They're showing me the contract in a week or so. I would like to negotiate with them... but should I mention "I know what other juniors are getting paid"? To my advantage, boss had fought for this headcount for me and there's already a short staffed team who knows/likes me and wants me to start asap. I was also the only person hired (semi off-cycle). On the other hand though, I don't want to seem ungrateful and have them rescind the offer.
Really confused about how you would even negotiate a first year analyst salary? Has this ever happened to anyone you know? I'm not sure if I should work it out with HR or speak to my boss about this... or maybe I just suck it up. All I want is to be paid fairly... not asking for anymore than that.
Would appreciate any insight so much. I've worked my ass off this year for this. having come from a non-target with no connections, I stuck through 11-12hr days getting paid something like minimum wage with no benefits for 12 months, thinking that once I make FT it'll all be better. While I love my boss for offering me this, it was still pretty painful to hear that number.
Thanks for all of you who answered. There's a glitch so everyone's under that same ID... Mind coming back with your own so I can shoot you some questions? Appreciate it so much!
sorry about that...this should be fixed now.
This:
If you have no idea how much your peers are making at the firm, you will have a tough time at the bargaining table.
Your situation before joining this firm seems sustainable, so you're in a better spot with this slight bump in pay, it could be worse.
Address it with your boss 6 months in; after seeing your performance, they'll be better able to validate an increase in salary.
Thanks, someone actually PM'd me with a similar recommendation too... to wait till my mid-year review or something. Glad this is somewhat of a consensus.
I do know what other first years (or I should say recent ex-first years) were offered. Not the exact amount but the ballpark. I guess I could have no job though which would suck even more...
If you are going to ask for a salary increase then you will need to JUSTIFY your request for more money. Simply asking for a raise because you want to make more money is not going to cut it.
Some potentially valid reasons for a salary increase: commuting costs (time, gas, parking, etc.), relocation fees, education/ certifications etc.
Some potentially valid reasons for a salary increase: commuting costs (time, gas, parking, etc.), relocation fees, education/ certifications etc.
My justification would be that they're trying to pay me below standard? Since I know what previous analysts were offered. Or you're trying to say that's not a good idea?
Oh yeah, and I moved overseas for this (APAC), and there's no mention of relocation. I'm also paying my own educational related expenses (CFA). If this happened at a boutique I would just take it, but I had expected so much more out of a BB...
I work at a BB and the reimbursement employees receive for the CFA is negligible.
Really? You're in risk too... I would think this is something they really want us risk analysts to have lol.
@"Aquitaine" The main thing is to arm yourself with as much RESEARCH as you can to verify and make your case that you really are underpaid - compare your salary against the salary of people in your area/ company
@"Aquitaine" The main thing is to arm yourself with as much RESEARCH as you can to verify and make your case that you really are underpaid - compare your salary against the salary of people in your area/ company
If they don't know your actual pay, then you have a much better bargaining chance to get street pay. HR typically do not low ball people as they do not have that decision making power. It is the hiring manager that told them the figure.
Like other posters said, show this during mid year or full year review. You will have leverage by then.
Generally the relocation package is standard, but do not expect expat packages as it is commonly being wiped out.
Horrible idea to leave it and address it 6 months in -- you have much more leverage now than you will after you start.
Even if you knock it out of the park from Day 1, your pay won't be revisited until annual review -- at which point there will likely be some rules about how much it can move.
I can't believe everyone is recommending that...Go back and read one of the thousand past threads about asking for a raise 6 months into your job. You negotiate up front and work from there.
Now, if you're going to take the job no matter what then you don't really have any leverage at all. I'd probably find a way to make it known that I'm aware what they pay 1st years though, and you feel like you're being taken advantage of.
Have to agree Roberto, you will have the most negotiating power before you become a fulltime employee. Once you are part of the system, you have implicitly agreed to all the different aspects of that system, including promotion policy/salary graduation etc. which are a function of a whole host of variables you do not have control over.
That beings said, the OP hasn't clearly stated what their situation is. Is an industrial placement = internship? If so you should still negotiate before hand. Do not under any circumstancs say, XY get paid this so I should get paid this cause (A) for privacy reasons they cannot disclose or admit to any salary amount of another employee and (B) each employees salary is a function of a variety of factors that they are not privy to discussing with you. Instead focus on your value proposition and what you are bringing to the table. As another poster said, do not make it a line in the sand, negotiating, even if you do not get what you want send a strong signal about the character of the employee.
If by "industrial placements" you mean you got a job in a support function as a foot in the door mechanism, I'd still negotiate but let it go if the answer is no.
Completely agree with both posters here. You will never talk to anyone (that's not in sales) and hear that they were able to negotiate a large deviation from their base after first hired. Your entry pay will either vault you, or pigeon hole you, to your next salary figure. Even if you could get something in writing about a possibility of a large increase so many months in (which I've never heard of happening), I would be 100% inclined to get market pay up front. Otherwise your next posting would have to do with leaving after one month in.
If I understand correctly this is a move within your current company. Some companies have policies that restricted the amount of pay increase by % even moving to a new position. You might want to double check to see if this is what is hamstringing you.
If I understand correctly this is a move within your current company. Some companies have policies that restricted the amount of pay increase by % even moving to a new position. You might want to double check to see if this is what is hamstringing you.
I would lean towards addressing it now rather than later. Your best leverage is an alternative offer.
My thoughts on these situations are that you take the job, maybe try for a soft negotiation but not drawing a line in the sand. You will need data points for this..."thanks for the offer, I'm really excited to join the team...its not deal breaker but I thought the salary would be in line with XZY based on industry comp for this position at similar companies." At an early age you gotta play the long ball and getting in the door is more important. Based on how they respond and/or bump you in 6-12 months time, leverage this role for a new job and lateral asap.
I haven't worked in a position of this stature so take my advice with a grain of salt.
1) I would never leave it there and "renegotiate" after 6 months. It ain't gonna happen. At most, they will give you a minimal increase. 2) I used stuff like parking, gas, and industry standards when renegotiating for a new job. I actually quoted figures off glassdoor.
I work in CF, but have been at a BO position at a BB. All things considered, you either take it and settle with that with no hope of near future raise, or renegotiate. I wouldn't take it with the aim of renegotiating after 6months.
1) The first mistake you made was to let them give you a number. NEVER let them be the first to put a number out there - you put a number out there that's just high enough for you to feel it's too high - this has a powerful anchoring effect. It is MUCH better to negotiate downwards from your number than to try to negotiate upwards from their number. 2) Never accept the first offer - they expect you to counter, and you can bet your bottom that they did not give you the ceiling salary for that position. As an example, if they offer you $75, go back and tell them $90. If they offer you $120, tell them $170 - if the HR person is not a little taken aback with how high your number is, it's not high enough. However, don't just demand higher pay, this is give and take, work your way down the list of good reasons that you should receive this higher compensation (move, higher cost of living, comps etc.).
if you don't negotiate, you're likely to resent it sooner or later because you will feel like you are not getting the "right" pay in comparison with the rest of your peers...always negotiate upfront
I and I think others are a bit confused by your situation and terminology. I think that you moved to the APAC region (from the US?) and took an internship (industrial placement?) with no relocation dollars? Ballsy move if you did btw-are you from there?. If that's the case, I wouldn't expect them to give you relo dollars because you're already physically there, if I understand correctly.
And you've been offered a FT job at that same BB in risk? You say promotion but I'm a bit confused because I believe a risk analyst is FT entry level, so you were an intern that was offered a FT gig. Congrats on that but I wouldn't necessarily call that a promotion, more that you got a FT offer.
I generally agree with the posters who say you need to get your salary up to industry/peer standards before you start and I'm actually surprised because most larger companies just have pay scales for junior positions (1st years Y's get $X, 2nd years get $X*1.15, etc) with perhaps some wiggle room but typically not much because you don't have any real professional experience and accomplishments to justify anything outside of that band. As someone who makes offers at firms that are much smaller than BB's, I don't like people who work in the same position to make different bases simply because no matter what the policy is, co-workers will eventually talk about their salaries (this only counts for lower levels because once you get a little higher everything's highly negotiate because you may be trying to poach them). Bonuses are different and I like that nugget to dangle out there for performance but I'm surprised that base would vary so wildly, but I'm also talking about US/UK/Euro comp, not APAC so things may be wildly different there (although from what I've seen HK and Singapore seem to work similarly to the west).
As others have said, bring comps and present your case as best you can. You can't do much more. Can you talk to your hiring manager off the record and ask about the situation? But try to get it at the beginning because you're setting your value now. Your best negotiation is another offer but it sounds like this may be a reach for you, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but it may be tough to land a similar job at another firm quickly. But as @"ke18sb" stated, if you have no other options and lose the negotiation you'll have to play the long ball.
Sorry I wasn't too clear. I moved to the APAC yes after taking up an industrial placement (basically like an internship/contractor) with no relocation. Actually, I think they did give me something like a couple hundred US dollars equivalent but I hardly count that as relocation. I'm not from APAC and had to physically move there after getting the contract.
I was offered a FT contract. You're right it's not technically a "promotion" but it's the closest description I could think of, as my internship/industrial placement was for a full year covering an associate on mat leave. Basically I did everything a FT analyst was doing, just as a contractor with low pay.
You guys will be surprised, but I am not actually kidding when I said the offer is low. It is actually 40-50% of what a first year credit risk analyst would be paid right now, taking into account the signing bonus which I don't get.
Off cycle hires typically don't get a signing bonus so you can't really use that as part of your calculation. I'm sure this drags down your percentage a decent bit. Nonetheless you pay is a slightly lower.
Again, it doesn't really sound like you have much leverage in terms of negotiating. You are young a newly minted undergrad, you don't really offer much other than hard work and willingness to learn. Assuming this is your only offer, I'd focus building your career and leveraging this opportunity to something that actually pays better, sooner than later. Suck it up, work hard and learn as much as possible to get you to where you want to be. In the grand scheme of things this first salary isn't gonna move the needle in the long run.
Yeah, wouldn't plan on getting a bump 6 months in. Simply put, no leverage unless you're willing to try and get an offer at that point. I was able to squeeze another $5k out in my last negotiation by telling HR what my next raise would be, and that it was scheduled to happen soon. Meaning they needed to be above that level. I also agree, that you should throw a number out first.
I definitely agree with addressing it now rather than later
Definitely negotiate now, not later. Were you a temp employee? Usually temps get a salary lower then their previous pay because FT employees get benefits.
@"roberto" @"twinwings" @"LCandB" @"wareagle4230" @"not1cuckaroo"
Thanks for all your comments about addressing it up front rather than later. I actually had the discussion with my HR yesterday morning, and it didn't go as planned unfortunately.
I phrased my argument by saying that I had heard the ballpark of what 1st year analysts were paid at our bank in the last couple years, and I was hoping to find out why my offer is lower than the standard offer given to other first year analysts. HR then shut me down by saying this is the offer given to all 1st years in the 2 years she's been with the bank (which is not true clearly), and that there is no other offer she knows of. That was the end of our discussion.
HR then said we shouldn't be discussing salaries, but I just told her upfront that in analyst/associate roles, there's generally standard on how they're compensated, and that I know the ballpark comp for not only analysts in our bank but also other banks. She didn't bring this up again lol.
@"ke18sb" Thanks, my goal right now is exactly like you said. I'm going to start with a team I've never worked before, doing pretty relevant work, so I'll try to learn as much as I can and suck it up for another 6 months to 1 year, then hopefully jump somewhere else after...
On the bright side, at least I'm not unemployed.
From what you guys have said, I think being pigeon-holed is a given at this point... Even when I move lateral, say to a 3rd year analyst/1st year associate level, since my base is so low now, someone said the other bank is not going to pay me street either? Would I be forced to give my comp info during lateral hiring, or could I get away with "I'm looking for a pay that reflects market trend and my abilities" or something?
Thanks for all the honest feedback. At least now I won't have unrealistic expectations during my mid-year review. Also, I've been feeling like a failure all week because of this, but logging on here today to discover so many replies means a lot... at least someone out there put in the effort to read my rant etc haha. SBs for all your help!
For those of you that were curious what bank, of course I can't say the name, but I can tell you it's a non-American BB.
Can't say what BB's policies are strictly, but if they ask for your current pay I would try something along the lines of what you have suggested. If you were in your contractor role for long enough (say a year or so) and are truly confident about the salary situation, I see no reason why you shouldn't pursue a lateral move now if possible. Keep an eye out for other Risk Analyst postings and see if you can make a move. It shouldn't be too hard if it is a comparable role to what you have now.
I wouldn't mention "market trend". You definitely want to focus on something about you that differentiates yourself. Find skills that you have that are a little bit more niche than what typically is the standard for someone coming out of a 1st year role. But "at least you're not unemployed" is a good point. The old bird in the hand is a good analogy here. Interesting though that HR was so stringent. They can't honestly think that people would believe that there is a set offer for every new employee in a specific role and that there isn't any deviation.
Hey, you have 2 great things that have come out of this experience:
1) You have made a career advancement 2) You are going to be so prepared on how to negotiate salary when you make your next move
So, I don't think you should be feeling like the exact opposite of a failure. Unfortunately, HR really anywhere takes advantage to just about every young gun 1-3 years outta school, or until they learn how to manage these sorta things. This happened to me at my second job, too.
But now you know: whether it be lateral, advancement into another company, or even a different position within this BB, do not ever let your current salary be known (in exact #s at least). If they ask it on an online app, you write a range or don't put anything at all. If they specifically ask you during an interview, its always "upper-end of similar comp pay for my position". Virtually, you always lie haha. And trust me, there will be no one in the company pissed off with you about that.
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