Hedge Fund as the 1st job out of undergrad
Hey fellow monkeys ,
I have a job offer at a hedge fund (>25bn ) straight out of undergrad .
However , it is for operations and it lasts 16 months .
What do you think ? - how does this set me up in the future ( b-school , other FO roles ) ?
Do you have any alternatives? It's also pretty late in the recruiting season. I would recommend taking it if that's the only option you have.
I'm not too familiar with how operations moves up, but I think you want to have a good rapport with the front-office guys, especially any PMs or traders you're clearing trades for on a consistent basis. I would recommend taking the CFA exams. Ultimately how you move up would depend on luck, competence, and technical skill.
Another possible path, and I think often overlooked, is to simply stay on the operations side and eventually move up to Operations Manager, possibly business manager, with further out potential as a Partner on the business side, or COO. I think an MBA would help with that.
From experience, it definitely happens but way less frequently than BO people would like to think. Generally it's a tough transition since you don't really interact with the FO people too much, especially at large funds. Also, even if they do start pondering about potentially giving you a role, for them it's still way safer to just pick somebody who has spent those 1-2 years doing something directly applicable (i.e. anything with accounting / sell-side / investing elsewhere - if we're talking about equity hedge funds). It might be totally different for macro funds or something niche, but just my 2 cents on the matter.
However, if it's a great name and you network your tail off - of course it's not going to stop you if you don't sit around for too long and get comfortable in the role that you're doing.
Thank you guys very useful !
Anything in regards to b- school chances , considering everything else is in line .
Thinking Columbia , Yale , Dartmouth ?
Not the best person to comment on B-School since I've personally never went down that route etc. But any big name goes down quite nicely from my understanding, the function that you do there comes secondary. In short, Goldman's operations would be just fine, for instance.
For hedge fund FO, its not going to be super helpful. If its a $25B fund I'm guessing its one of the big platforms. There will always be people (internally/externally) with hedge fund and classic feeder experience (e.g. banking) looking to move in. Being at the fund is better than doing operations for, say, an hospital, but wont be as helpful as being on a traditional feeder path.
For Bschool Famous is basically right - its all about the name and how much you can fluff up your experience. School's wont be as familiar with hedge funds as with, say, banks and consulting firms, so they're less able to differentiate between names. In any case if it is only 16 months you'd be (slightly) on the early side for a bschool jaunt, and likely want to do another 2 years elsewhere for resume building purposes before applying
In a similar boat as this too. Will be reading
The exact position would be "fund accounting "
Any further input ?
Been there done that. The work absolutely blows and the whole role in itself should just be automated. If it's all you have though, go for it and don't become complacent.
How did your career progress after this ? - can you comment on B- school opportunities ?
It's a terribly boring and mind-numbing role so network as hard as you can to get out of it. As for your first question, well that depends on what other offers you have lol.
This guy would know, he works in corporate finance
Too funny, now this fag is obsessed with my comments in every thread. Every time this idiot makes a comment, I become more convinced that he's some undergrad faggot from a community college, reeking insecurity everywhere he goes.
I work for a large HF, and the way it usually works is that all jobs are posted internally as well as externally, and whether a junior FO role opens up there are a few BO/MO people who throw their hat into the ring and are interviewed.
It actually happens not that infrequently (I mean ive seen 1-2 a year) because: a) most HFs like to think that even MO/BO hires are very competent as the whole organisation is leaner b) they usually have some connection to the traders/FO already c) if they do find someone they think is good enough its generally cheaper
So it still depends on meeting a minimum level of competence for any role, but you will have some advantages (although some obvious disadvantages as well).
I got offered this division at the same HF :
XYZ is the Credit / Peer to Peer lending division , specialising in investment strategies in this space .
Sounds way more attractive , right ?
Have a buddy who started off in fund accounting and ended up on the investment team at a large Fund of Funds (a fund that allocates money to hedge funds). Moving to the FO from a role like that can definitely be done, you'll need to work hard, network, and get noticed. And have a little luck. I went from back office and am now trading at a large HF. It's very possible. Work hard.
Undergrad to Analyst at Value Oriented HF (Originally Posted: 09/21/2012)
There are a million threads on this started by people in similar situations with good and informative responses. You should be able to find them pretty easily. Reference....
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/undergrad-breaking-in-to-value-hf http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/undergrad-interested-in-value-inv… http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/breaking-into-hf-from-non-target http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ho-hum-to-hedge-fund http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/faq-best-discussions-hedge-funds http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/path-to-take-0 http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/charles-schwab-broker-trainee-to-… http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/non-target-hedge-fund-internship
Now, as to your particular situation....that's a hell of a lot of conditions you're placing while wanting a specific outcome.
In a more meta sense, it's a profession which requires a fair amount of time investment (there are going to be weeks you work 100 hours....it's pretty much that simple). All that time may not be spent in the office, but you can't really get away with a 60 hour work week. I always point out you spend 60 hours working in the office and another 30 hours a week thinking about working in the office.
As such, it's not generally friendly to single parents. Nor are the jobs that typically lead to hedge fund positions. Banking is notoriously time consuming. Consulting is fewer hours on average, but the difficulty is amplified with the need to be on client site.
Is that unfair? Probably.
But there's something of a correlation between length of time worked and difficulty of job. It's not a perfect proxy, but it's damned close. And for a hedge fund to want to take a bet on you, they'll mostly like want you to have had some prior proof of hard work and analytical excellence.
Now, there are a billion counter examples to this and many of us have seen people come in from various areas and segments of life. But if you're looking for an easy, well established path within the conditions you're setting out, there simply isn't one. For you, the path is probably finding a heavily analytical job, being excellent at it, and knowing the right people at the right time who will take a chance on you.
P.S. - You shouldn't give an expected CFA completion date or CFA Level completion date. It's technically in violation of CFA institute ethics.
No Intelligent Investor or Security Analysis? Shame.
You could collateralize your kids for seed capital? I'd read Security Analysis first though man.
Face time isn't really that big a deal at many funds once you're actually hired. After all, the job does require a lot of independent work - lots of reading, calling people, modeling, thinking, writing, etc. You can do all of those things from anywhere, and a firm with a good culture isn't going to care if you're at home or in the office as long as you're doing your diligence and making good recommendations. The profession allows a fair amount of flexibility in that respect - some analysts telecommute and have made it work.
But as PennTeller pointed out, getting from undergrad to a position where someone is willing to put that kind of trust in you is easier said than done. The simplest way to "prove yourself" is to work in a thankless grind type of job like banking or consulting for a few years. However, if you're passionate about investing and can demonstrate your skillset through effective networking (and ideally having a really awesome pitch) without spending a few years in that kind of training environment, it's not impossible to find a job in the industry sooner. It's just harder. You might also look for a training program at a more lifestyle-oriented investment firm - there are some reputable long-only mutual funds that will teach you a lot about investment analysis without expecting as much from you.
The one other consideration for your situation you might want to reflect on is that the job generally requires a fair amount of travel. In theory you can make decisions just from reading financial reports all day, but in practice it's often helpful to go visit a company in person, and conferences are useful for idea generation or just the practicality of visiting a bunch of companies in one industry in a short period of time. I don't know of too many successful investors who don't travel at least a half dozen times per year.
Ok, thank you guys for the help - I didn't figure there was a well established path, but that is in large part why I asked. Any comments about sell-side equity research positions? I've heard face time isn't as critical there either, though that may vary a lot between firms. From what I've gotten from other threads, it probably wouldn't be as helpful as a position at a long-only mutual fund though, so I'll keep an eye out for those. I realize that if I get the position I want, I'll spend most of my life thinking about investing, but I'm one of the weird people who is looking forward to that.
A lot of sell-side research doesn't exactly cohere well with a value orientation - that's putting it politely. But there are rare analysts you could learn a lot from. In junior positions, associates are generally expected to do all the modeling and work long hours, but since your analyst might be off traveling for marketing it's less of a face time expectation and more of a 'huge amounts of grunt work' expectation. So it's not exactly a lifestyle-friendly position, but it is better than most entry level roles at a bank. How much useful investing experience you would gain would be entirely dependent on the quality of your analyst - generally speaking, the best ones leave the sell-side to go actually invest, except for those who are just better at researching companies than making stock picks. These are the few to look for. Your best bet in equity research is to seek opportunities at niche firms (outside of banks) that are less dependent on trading commissions - they often have a few solid sector specialists.
You should do write-ups of your best ideas and cold email them to people at various funds. If the write-ups are truly stellar, someone will give you a chance. Realistically though, they probably won't be that great if you have never worked at a fund before. Even most guys at funds can't do a decent write-up to save their lives. I did a lot of work on my own before I started my job, but in hindsight I didn't really know shit.
I would say that you really have done a lot to prepare for a career in the value space but unfortunately there is almost zero direct recruiting. I would suggest getting in to someplace related, put in two years, and try to move over. Its really awful and probably counterproductive how reliant the industry is on top 5 school -> top banking team -> working with headhunters to pick from this subset. I think as long as you have some related experience, really bang away on the networking, and can communicate your interest you'll have a decent shot.
The one plus of large banks or mutual funds is that if you are a single parent HR will basically tell your superiors that they can't hold you to facetime and be sensitive about it. I have no actual facts to back this up, but it seems like in today's world that these places really need to work on their public image and people in HR would be very impressed at being able to make a 4.0 as a single parent.
Also, those are very good books. There are tons of "what books should I read" and I almost never see Financial Shenanigans or Quality of Earnings. They are both great reads and really relevant.
You can do an internship while you work from home, but that would work at a smaller value shop. At least it is experience.
Starting a career at a hedge fund (Originally Posted: 12/14/2015)
I read a lot about it being a trajectory limiting move by starting a career at a hedge fund, and how there are downsides such as pigeonholing that come with it - had some questions regarding whether or not some of those claims hold as much weight as one might think.
To anyone who went against the norm of IB => PE/HF, and went straight to a HF: 1. Is lacking deal experience really that detrimental in one's ability to perform (given that the HF's strat is event-driven type investments)? 2. Would those 2 extra years at the HF compared to an IB/PE firm have significant value, or is it marginal? 3. Any words of advice/caution for someone looking to go down this path? 4. If you've exited out due to various reasons, have other firms been receptive to your experiences, or weary that you come from a HF background?
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