Law to Investment Banking (One Monkey's How-To Guide)
As many of you know, I was a former corporate lawyer at a large law firm, who networked his way into a MM bank without an MBA, and later transitioned into a Bulge Bracket, where I continue toiling my days away.
Since I've responded to many friends and fellow monkeys regarding this topic (and because I've found existing threads threads to be lacking in sufficient guidance), I thought I would share my two cents on how to transition from law into banking:
Step 1 - Why?
The biggest question I ask all prospective candidates is "Why?" And this is a question that you have to ask yourself before you go down this path. Don't think up a canned answer to fool yourself, because the grass isn't always greener. Do you want to (1) go into PE, (2) go to a hedge fund, (3) do corporate development, or (4) *gasp* become a senior banker.
This matters because it's not an easy road to get into banking, and it's an even harder road to get to the buyside. Unless you're extremely lucky or well connected, it's not something that you can half-ass.
Step 2 - Your Story
Now that you've figured out Step 1, this is where you need to think of an answer to fool... I mean convince... the interviewer(s) that you want to really want to sell your soul to banking.
If you're a corporate (M&A/Capital Markets) or bankruptcy lawyer it's a much easier sell, because you can speak to how banking is more exciting and interesting since you've been on deals with bankers before.
If you are in any other type of law, it'll be a tough sell, but nothing is impossible. In this scenario, I would figure how to spin it so that your experiences can add value to the banking deal team. Also, I would concentrate on targeting banks that could use your expertise (e.g. TMT boutiques if you are a patent litigator)
However, the biggest question that every lawyer has to overcome is: "Why Law School and Law, instead of doing finance out of undergrad?" It's a tough, but fair question. My recommendation is to not make apologies for your choices, but to stand behind your convictions and the choices you previously made.
For full disclosure and in my experience, most people I have seen successfully transition are those that did go to a top law firm and practiced corporate law.
The bankers I've seen came from the following firms: Skadden, Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson, and Sidley. Almost all were in M&A, Cap Markets or Credit.
Step 3 - Technicals
For lawyers, this is an incredibly important step (though not as important as networking). People don't think lawyers can do math. It doesn't matter whether you were a math major in undergrad or if you have a CFA. Bankers just assume that the JD is an indicator of poor math skills. May not be correct, or smart, but that's the way the world works. Make sure you are comfortable with, and have solid technicals
I'm not going to rehash how to study for technicals. There are a million and one posts about how to study. I would recommend the following resources, which I used:
WSO Investment Banking Guide
M&I Guide (Sorry Patrick, it was helpful)
Investment Banking (Rosenbaum and Pearl)
Training the Street (Excel Best Practices and Financial Modeling only)
Step 4 - Networking
Step 4 was my secret sauce in getting into banking without an MBA. Networking is extremely hard work, and most people shy away from it. But I'll tell you that submitting job applications online is useless, and banking recruiters are... well, best I leave my thoughts about them unsaid.
As a lawyer, you are a "non-traditional" candidate. This means that no matter how hard you try, you will not fit the mold that gets you noticed by either resume drops or recruiters. So, the only option for you to get a shot to demonstrate steps 2 and 3 is to reach out to people.
I would reach out to friends, colleagues, former clients, and alumni networks. Also, I would concentrate on primarily reaching out to Directors and MDs. These are the people who have the power to push your candidacy through and override HR. Remember: HR is just an in-house recruiter, and you know my thoughts on recruiters...
You should begin to establish your network early. It takes time to build the relationship. Don't wait until January/February to do your initial reach out, because then you may be too late. However, DO follow up around January, because that's about when the Wall Street Shuffle starts (i.e. when unhappy bankers who have just heard bonus numbers begin to look elsewhere).
Also, an important piece of advice: Lawyers are often prestige whores (I know I was), but you can't be in this situation. Make sure you reach out to all the Bulge Brackets, but do not discount speaking to a smaller, but reputable, boutique bank. Oftentimes, it is the boutiques who have less rigid hiring criteria and will be willing to give you a shot.
Well, what are you waiting for? There's no time like the present to get started. Good luck. And I'm happy to answer any questions or flames on this thread.
Great post. Just out of curiosity, how many times have you seen it happen the other way around: bankers going to law school and then becoming lawyers?
Great post, thanks for taking the time to do this. I noticed you listed probably the top corp law firms as the firms you have seen people make the jump from, but to what extent do you think this is as important as schools attended, people you know etc? Will it be tough to get an interview even through networking if you work at a good corp firm doing M&A (vault 20-30 range for those who care) but not one of the caliber you listed?
I know getting into a big law firm depends a lot on your law school, so I am wondering if the "prestige" of the firm is also important.
Why did -you- make the switch?
AndyLouis good article to front page
Thanks guys. To address some of your questions:
With regards to corporate law: I've seen a few analysts go to law school and then go to very good firms. Going the other way, you actually have a great career track. Most law firms love the experience and understanding, plus most analysts have above average attention to detail already beaten into them. That being said, most analysts have seen what they do to corporate lawyers, and tend to shy away from it.
With regards to litigation: I don't think I've ever seen an ex-banker go that route.
I'd say that the law school you attended is far less important than the firm you went to. People tend to take the quality of the firm as a proxy for competence. For example, you can go to Harvard Law, but if you end up at some no-name firm, then it'll weigh heavily against you.
The thing to remember is that your firm should be "recognizable" by the bank you're applying to. In the case of most bulge brackets, it will be the Biglaw shops that the MDs have interacted with on a regular basis. However, if you are going to a boutique or regional bank, then for them quality will be defined by those firms that they "recognize", which would encompass top national firms and quality smaller shops that they deal with (e.g. Patterson Belknap in NY).
I'd think that you can still get an interview from the V20-30 range, since many of these firms are fairly well known. However, I don't personally know of anyone outside of the firms I listed having gotten into banking. They're probably out there, but just not as common. Admittedly, it will more of an uphill battle, because bankers are huge prestige whores. To illustrate my point, I'd look at all the threads on WSO relating to which MBA program or I-Bank ranking is better. More importantly, it is when you are at a firm that is not "recognizable" by the banker, that you'll have a mountain to climb.
Of course, the most important factor is always the people you know/people you meet. These are the people who will, hopefully, champion your cause, and will know you best.
Buyside, plain and simple.
What's your plan to transition to buyside?
How long did you stay at your law firm before switching over? Did you join a new first year associate class in July or did you get hired after bonuses in February? Curious to hear what the timeline from studying/networking to interviews/offers was. Thanks again.
ld2015--great post.
You mentioned that January/February would be too late for an initial reach out. Around what time do IBs begin to consider off-cycle candidates with prior work experience, such as lawyers? Are they typically brought in at the analyst or associate level?
Also, any experience with the Chicago market and the firms that play well with banks situated there? I work at a top 25 firm in Chicago (think Chapman Cutler instead of Kirkland & Ellis) and am wondering how that is viewed. For what it's worth, I am looking to get into FIG and have extensive experience with credit transactions and M&A and some experience with fund formation.
Can't speak to Chicago market but I can tell you my experience from going through MBA recruiting in the New York market as a JD/MBA. Very few of the folks I met, despite extensive networking both through campus events and through my own accord, held JDs. Of the folks I connected with or even came across through LinkedIn/Spokeo stalking, every single one of them worked at a V50 law firm (and most often, V10). Inevitably it began to feel like if you weren't at Simpson, K&E, S&C, Weil, Debevoise, Milbank, Cadwalader, Latham, Skadden, and just a handful of other firms, you are likely not getting a job on the business side at a BB, elite boutique, and even many MM IBs. I would target MM and lower MM boutique banks if jumping to IB is your end game, target MM buyside, or target making a jump to the Chicago office of a V50 firm as a stopover on your way to banking.
You mentioned litigation here.
I was thinking of going to law school (non-U.S.) and litigation seems like more my jam than straight securities law. Can you speak to the experiences of your colleagues?
Zero interest in being a career banker/deal maker.
The only person I have ever heard of who transitioned from litigation to finance was Bonderman @ TPG, and the guy was a Supreme Court clerk, and very old school. Sadly Mike Ross is just a fiction. The only real way I see litigation being a value-add in banking anymore is a) joining a restructuring practice at a law firm like K&E, Milbank, Weil, Skadden, or Akin Gump and then jumping to an RX advisory group (HL, Moelis, EVR, etc.) or b) doing general commercial litigation in some environment that requires external funding (e.g. plaintiff work) and then jumping to a litigation financing shop. Litigation is not just about arguing with people, it's about arguing with people within a very specific structure and in a very specific vernacular that is pretty much useless outside of some of these fields that depend very concretely on the evolution of a particular litigation.
I made the transition from a top firm (v15, M&A group, etc.) to a BB about a year ago and mostly echo what is being said above. One thing I would say is that I made the transition without connections and simply applied online and was right place, right time. Know of a few other people that have made the transition through headhunters so know it's definitely possible.
One thing I will say is that you're unlikely to get more than a few shots on goal in trying to make the switch so you better make sure you're ready to knock your interviews out of the park when the time comes.
Law grad to IB options (Originally Posted: 09/20/2017)
Non-traditional path here. 27y/o. Ultimate goal is to get into IB/MC work. Just looking for some advice. And yes, I took the long road.
I went to State University for undergrad. Econ & Math 3.5 gpa. Worked for a few years in a random job doing contracts/accounting role for a boutique entertainment post-production studio, long story but was a co-founder. Got to do contract work with Hollywood studios on a lot of major feature films and with corp ad departments on commercial work. Also got real experience making deals, communicating, and meeting strict deadlines with important clients. But the company barely broke even, and I made very little money. I started considering what my options were with my skills and experience in entertainment deals.
I took a couple gmat practice tests and got 690 w/o too much effort, definitely room for improvement. But after looking into it more, I thought there was no way I could get into a legit MBA program with my experience, much less get hired afterwards with no real finance/consulting experience. (Looking back, starting a business at 22 that contracted with major film studios could have maybe worked.) So I figured law school could get me in the door somewhere and didn't require experience. Had some money and a little family help, so I went.
Now im graduating this year from UCLA/USC top 1/3. 1L summer was in M&A department at a Fortune 150 tech company doing legal due diligence work for a billion dollar acquisition fund they ran internally. Spent the next school year working for a tiny startup (4 people total) that was eventually bought while I was there for very little (around 100k). Handled licensing deals with clients and personally made pitches to potential buyers/strategic partners.
I'm trying to decide what I should do. My current plan is to a) get directly into IB/MC (I am applying to IB/MC analyst positions at every level, BB to mid-level to boutique.) b) get a job that allows for lateral movement to IB/MC Associate after a few years, or c) get a job that will get me into an IB/MC feeder MBA business schools">m7 MBA after 2-3 years. I don't mind going back for MBA if it will get me IB/MC Associate.
Question is, what should I realistically expect? I co-founded a company, worked in corp M&A, and was a part of the sale of a start-up before 27 and will have a law degree.
Everyone I have talked to say IB/MC analyst at a major is a small maybe, could probably get a Valuation/PWM/Mutual analyst or something in that tier. I've gotten an offers to work as an Associate in Advisory at E&Y for M&A tax work.
Just opening the floor for advice from anyone who knows about getting into IB/MC in a non-traditional role.
Looks like I'm in for a bit of an uphill battle :)
It seems like you came in as an associate, is that common for laterals with our background? Also, did your prior legal experience impact the offer? I started in a unique situation that imparted me with more substantive experience when compared to those in my 2014 JD class (i.e., much less checklist updating and much more drafting, negotiating and leading deals).
Shit, this is a good topic. I haven't personally switched from law to IBD, but I have known quite a few people who have done so. I'm not from the USA, so just take from me whatever you think is relevant/helpful.
From what I've seen, most of my peers got into IB through networking. This means they've reached out to MDs or other analysts 1 to 2 years before recruiting season. At this stage, it's mostly about convincing those people that your previous experience is relevant to why you want to move into IB. So you'll need a very good story as to why you didn't pursue law and also why IB not other available options. You should also be prepared for questions regarding your age. It's not very nice, and perhaps I'm misguided (happy to be corrected if I am), but my understanding is that a junior analyst position at a bank is usually a young person's game and they might wonder if you have other commitments etc. Obviously, it's intrusive, but try to demonstrate commitment to the role, even if you do have other things going on.
It sounds like you have the right stats though, and you seem like a pretty tenacious and interesting person so all that will go in your favour. If you're willing to put consistent effort into networking, then I think your chances are high. Though, whether you want to give a year or more to do that is something you'll probably have to weigh up among other things.
There are probably other ways to break in, so... maybe someone who knows can help. Someone with a similar background in your personal/professional circles?
When you set up informational calls with MDs, do you also give them your resume (especially if your resume can show technical skills and prior buy-side experiences)? For instance, should you: 1) send an email to introduce yourself and request a call, 2) if the MD says yes, agree on a time and set up the call, and 3) send the MD your resume before the call? Thanks.
Big Law Associate to IBD/PE/Investment Management (Originally Posted: 03/14/2015)
I've been following WSO for a while, and would appreciate any advice.
I'm a first year M&A associate at a V15 New York firm doing mostly M&A work, went to a T6 law school, top 5 UG. I don't mind what I'm doing right now, but I want to make the exit to business. I would appreciate if anyone can give me advice on what I should be doing right now (either at my job or preparing on the side) that would help me make my eventual exit.
What I don't like about Big Law: One thing I know for sure is that I do not envy Big Law partners. Not so much about the work, but what drives me nuts is seeing some of the most established partners in my firm in their 50s/60s being bossed around by clients who can barely grow a beard. And they work longer hours than me. I honestly don't mind the mind-numbing work (don't love it either, and on some days I effing hate it, but work is work), but I don't want to be a partner badly enough, and in-house doesn't appeal to me either. Why waste time building a career you don't want? (Yeah, I spent 3 years + 150K for my JD, but that's sunk cost...)
More about my background: Quantitative major in college. I am good at math. I was also a summer analyst at one of the banks that's no longer around. That's part of the reason I went to law school. I graduated when unemployment was 9%+, and trust me, I tried hard to look for a job.
Also, I studied for CFA level 1 but never took the test. I recently reviewed the material, and I still remember much of it. I'm thinking of taking it this June so at least I have something to point to on my resume. Is it worth it?
Bottom line is I know I won't be making the move at least for another year, but I just want to start preparing ASAP, now that I know I don't want to be a lawyer forever.
I appreciate any and all input—thanks in advance!
Go through breaking into Wall Street modeling guides first to learn basics of modeling. Then purchase WSO interview guide a few months before interviews to prepare for actual questions. Reading Rosenbaum and pearl not a bad place to start either. Sign up for dealbook M&A email, WSJ, etc and keep up with transaction activity. Also, start thinking about the deals you are working on now like a banker - strategic rationale, valuation, financing, etc. know it is often the case you are removed from the reality of the transaction in law and just focused on the documents (which will be a helpful knowledge base in banking) but start trying to step back now and see that the asset purchase agreement, etc. are just a piece of the process and bankers have to manage multiple pieces.
If this bothers you, then maybe you should not consider a career in IB (or maybe PE). You will be a slave to the client (or GP). I know nothing about law, but what you're saying sounds analogous to the careers you have listed except for investment management.
I am aware of that. But I just feel like people give the least damn about you when you're the lawyer (and you get paid the least). Lowest of the lowest in the totem pole of professionals on a deal.
Also would appreciate if anyone on this forum has made the similar move out of Big Law.
To answer a few of the questions that haven't been addressed already:
I was there for 3 years. In hindsight, I believe that you really need some seasoning to add value, and most biglaw associates won't work with extensively with the main transaction document until sometime second year.
I joined a first year class when I transitioned and went through training. However, I have a buddy who switched over after February bonuses. So both options are viable.
I started preparing about 1.5 years before I made the transition. I started heavy networking after I was mostly comfortable with the materials. However, I did make the mistake of taking a few interviews before I understood the subject matter well, and it was not pretty. I would study under the assumption that once you start networking, a job interview may materialize as quickly as a few days. Of course, it may take months of networking before you get an interview, but better safe than sorry.
Timeline to offers vary. I know someone who interviewed and was given an offer within a month. On the other end, my process from start to offer was about 6 months.
To clarify: January/February is when most banks consider off-cycle / lateral hires. However, if you reach out at that point: (1) you will be one of many other people who are reaching out, many of whom have relevant experience (e.g. lateral banker hires) and (2) MDs and HR will be preoccupied with vetting experienced bankers and may be less likely to consider your candidacy. It is just my recommendation (and not a requirement) to reach out in advance of the madness, so that a bank already knows you come the Wall Street Shuffle. As an analogy, it's like talking to a hot girl at a bar. It generally helps if you have some pre-existing introduction, as opposed to being one out of twenty guys trying to get her attention.
Sorry, in my experience, I haven't met any colleagues that have transitioned from litigation. While I have heard tales of the transition occurring, I can't verify the veracity or circumstance.
Assuming that you would want to work for an American firm, I would warn that going to a non-U.S. school is tricky. You would need to go to a top foreign school, like Cambridge, Oxford or Durham. Also, law schools outside of America are structured differently. Many aren't graduate schools, but undergraduate programs.
There are numerous posts regarding how to request an informational on this site. Most of what I would say here would just be a rehash of what I had previously learned from the WSO community. Additionally, I would advise using the WSO Networking Guide as a resource as well (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/wso-networking-guide).
Laterals will come in anywhere between a 3rd year analyst and a 3rd year associate, depending on if you go to a BB, EB or MM shop and what level you are transitioning from at the law firm. Generally, having more substantive experience will help once you're on the job, but I haven't seen it give an extra edge in terms of getting an offer. Not sure if anyone else has? Also, IMO the experience you have compared to your JD class doesn't matter as much as your experience/knowledge relative to the MBAs or lateral hires.
Pray to as many Deities as I can find!
In all seriousness, just continue networking and pounding the pavement, with the realization that I may never succeed. But, nothing worth doing is easy.
Law to IB Advice (Originally Posted: 11/21/2016)
Well my case might be a bit different from usual. I'm a 22 year old Brazilian on last year of LLB from a top five law school in Brazil. I have already taken a one year internship on a Brazilian boutique law firm in the field of arbitration and seen that being a lawyer is definitely not my dream job.
I want to break into investment banking in London and am unsure what would be my best option.
Right now I can foresee basically three paths that I could take:
1- take an internship in a Brazilian law firm into the field of mergers and acquisitions or securities law, then working two or three years as a lawyer, taking an MBA in Europe to hopefully land a job into IB in a BB in London.
2- take an internship in a Brazilian law firm into the field of mergers and acquisitions or securities law, straight after graduation take a masters in either finance or management. I really liked the Two year Master in Management from HEC ( I speak French fluently). After the degree hopefully land into an IB job in a BB in London.
3- after graduation from law school pursue a new undergraduate in either economics or finance or a course with more of a quantitative content from a target UK university, preferably in London, such as LSE or KCL. Finally break into IB.
Given those scenarios which do you think would be the ideal or all of them might work. Would you suggest any other alternatives. Could the CFA be of any help for me?
Thank you very much.
Help Chart My Path from Law School to IBD/PE (Originally Posted: 08/01/2010)
Ok, so glad to be back here after a fairly long hiatus. I've worked briefly as an analyst at a BB, and will be starting law school in a few weeks.
I am genuinely interested in studying and practicing corporate law, particularly as it relates to financial institutions. however, i'd eventually like to leverage that experience as a financial services professional.
so suppose i kill it and get latin honors, law review and all that jazz, what might be the credited path for me to follow?
thanks in advance everyone.
"more than happy to subordinate quality of life for money and prestige." jesus christ
You'd be transitioning at the VP level after being a Sr/Associate in BigLaw...
At that point prestige is directly correlated with money and negatively correlated with quality of life.
To be honest though, I just want to hit you right now.
I hope you either don't keep in contact with anyone from your bank anymore, worked there a long time ago, or don't care about your online privacy--because you pretty much just gave away your identity to anyone who worked with you with that BB FIG --> HLS bit.
Hello, sorry for such a late reply. I was busy charting your path from HLS to PE
see it here
http://i25.tinypic.com/3515usl.jpg
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