High School Senior: IU Kelley or Duke

Hello all. I am a high school senior from Indiana, and I have just recently created this account in order to draw advice from these forums. As of this moment, I am planning on a career in finance, specifically investment banking. A little bit more about my current situation, I am trying to decide between IU-Kelley (EFC of $30k) and Duke (EFC of $110k). I come from a middle-class family, so the financial costs will factor into my decision. I have done a fair amount of research into both options, and have come up with the following basic conclusions:

1) Kelley in my view is geared more towards producing career-ready, professional businesspeople. Duke has more of a theoretical/liberal arts focus emphasizing the development of critical thinking skills. Duke's Econ curriculum, however, is also very strong in the area of finance. I plan to major in economics with a minor in Statistics.

2) Duke, comparatively speaking, is filled with more brilliant, motivated students, and would provide a more stimulating environment. I have heard that a 3.7+ GPA should be a target for students aiming for IB jobs. It will not easy, given the competition.

3) IU Kelley has the Investment Banking Workshop, which does an admirable job of placing its roughly 30 students per year into banking internships/summer analyst positions. Admission into this workshop is quite selective, as far as I know. I may have a fair chance. I have heard conflicting statements about Kelley's placement record, with some praising the strong representation on Wall street, and others completely disagreeing. Nearly all of these sources were arguments based on anecdotal evidence.

4) The Duke name and strength of its student body make the university a target school on par with Ivies such as Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, etc. There is on-campus recruiting, and Duke students are heavily sought after. I was told by an alum that in his year, nearly each of the Bulge Bracket firms reserved 50 interview spots for Duke Juniors. Assuming 10% of interviewees are offered positions, and the high possibility of overlap, I would estimate that 80-90 Duke Juniors are able to secure Summer Analyst positions.

Do these conclusions appear to be reasonable?

I understand that I am still young, and that my planned career path is hardly set in stone. I definitely would like to keep my options open during my undergraduate years. Perhaps after several years of work experience following graduation, I may apply to law school. In this case, it is easier financially for me to go to IU instead than Duke for my undergraduate degree. Aside from strictly professional considerations, I believe I would be reasonably happy with the social aspects of both schools.

Before I make my final decision, I essentially want to uncover more concrete clues that would indicate my chances of breaking into investment banking from either IU or Duke. Specifically, I am looking for more estimates of what are the percentages of Duke or IU students who aim for investment banking that actually receive interviews, Summer Analyst opportunities, internships, or job offers. Career services centers for both schools fail to provide detailed information. Additionally, personal accounts of the strength/weakness of student representation on Wall Street would also be helpful. Really, any sort of input or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

As someone who went to Duke, and this pains me to say it, you should probably choose Indiana. I have seen more kids from IU than Duke here in NYC, and if there is a big cost difference it only makes the decision easier.

That being said, you can end up at a great bank going to either school and choosing Duke was the best choice of my life.

 
eldiablo4857:
Duke4Lyfe, do you work at BAML by chance? I've heard that there are a lot of Indiana grads represented there so perhaps that skews your perspective. I went to Duke and from what I remember every BB and international bank (BNP, Nomura, etc.) recruited on campus besides Credit Suisse. Not sure how Indiana compares...80K is a lot of money though to save.

I do not work at BAML, but do not want to risk giving myself away by stating which bank I work at.

 

Whatever you do, don't make your decision based solely on the advice you get from an internet forum. That being said if money wasn't a factor Duke would be the runaway choice. The overall education is better, and there's no guarantee that 3-4 years from now you will still want to do investment banking. However, Indiana has a far better social scene and is significantly cheaper for you. I say you go to Duke, it will set you up better in the long run.

 
falcon19:
Whatever you do, don't make your decision based solely on the advice you get from an internet forum.
this X 1,000.
falcon19:
That being said if money wasn't a factor Duke would be the runaway choice.... and there's no guarantee that 3-4 years from now you will still want to do investment banking.
Also this.
 

I am from northern Indiana. I'd PM you with a more detailed location, but apparently I haven't accrued enough banana points yet. How about you?

 

I'll be going to IU next year as a Kelley Direct Admit.

As far as I'm aware though, the school places extremely well into Chicago and NYC finance and has an incredibly large alumni network for you to use and take advantage of. Also, not every freshman who goes to Kelley will have investment banking as the first thing on their mind, so in a sense it could be easier to distinguish yourself among everyone else. The $80k difference is a lot of money as well, so for me that would be the tipping point in my decision. If your EFC for Duke were ~$70k-$80k instead, then Duke would be the runaway choice.

Socially, both of the schools are pretty equal and it's easy to have fun and party.

 
How many kids are there in Kelley per graduating year? 2000? 30 kids out of 2000 is not extremely well in terms of ib placement

The 30 is just the kids in the Investment Banking Workshop, which has a near-100% placement rate into internship and full-time positions.

There's also an Investment Management Workshop with a similar number of kids and an Investment Banking Seminar. However, there are still kids who don't make it into these things who are able to break into IB.

 

This shouldn't even be debated. Duke consistently a top 10 ranked university (currently 8), basically on par with the ivies. IU, while the business program might be good, is ranked in the 80's. Even as far as public schools are concerned, IU isn't a mentioned amongst the best. Duke will garner so much more respect and open so many more doors throughout your career. Sorry, but this should be a no brainer. Also, sorry if I'm offending any IU people but seriously its not really a valid argument to put these on even close to the same level.

 
Best Response
ke18sb:
This shouldn't even be debated. Duke consistently a top 10 ranked university (currently 8), basically on par with the ivies. IU, while the business program might be good, is ranked in the 80's. Even as far as public schools are concerned, IU isn't a mentioned amongst the best. Duke will garner so much more respect and open so many more doors throughout your career. Sorry, but this should be a no brainer. Also, sorry if I'm offending any IU people but seriously its not really a valid argument to put these on even close to the same level.

I disagree, respectfully. It clearly warrants debate, given that even within this thread and from people who attended both universities there is no clear consensus. Some of the Dookie's are saying that Kelley would be a better choice given the cost issue.

I agree that Dook is a superior academic school and if you are viewing this as an investment with a long career horizon, then Dook certainly will impress more people. But what about if you are looking at the common, 2-2-2 trajectory, assuming that you can get into banking from both schools?

You may be better off taking the Kelley route. Obviously there is no guarantee that you can break into the industry from either school, and it is difficult to say which provides the better probability because the caliber of candidate who can get into Dook is very likely to be able to get into the IB Workshop at Kelley.

The conflating issue here is how big of an issue the cost is to the OP. A difference of $80k (even when viewed more as $20k per year for 4 years) is not insignificant, especially if the OP can reasonably expect to break into banking from either path. If the OP feels he/she would have a stronger likelihood of breaking into banking from Dook than Kelley, then he/she should go that route and not look back. I'm sure they would have an awesome 4 years going crazie at Cameron Indoor, making trips to the Final Four and having more impressive name for their resume in the event they want to do something else. They likewise, would probably have an awesome 4 years going nuts at Assembly Hall, making trips to the Final Four, and getting Schmacked at Little Five.

OP, go with whatever your gut tells you. I have friends who went to both schools who work in banking and who have gotten sick PE gigs (if you're into that). They both would have similar likelihood to get into top b schools (they are targeting HSW). The real question is how do you want to remember your 4 years of college, because you will only get to do it once.

 
rufiolove:
...

I see you have valid points but I sill disagree. You are comparing optimal scenario to optimal scenario. Unfortunately, in the real world optimal scenario does not alway happen. Similar to investing its all about managing risk - variance. What if the OP goes to IU and decides he doesn't want to get into banking? What if he can't get into the IB program? What if he/she parties too hard because its a fun state school where the majority of the kids are raging? Ask yourself what is the downside and the downside of IU greatly out weighs that of Duke. Worse case you do the above at Duke and you are still basically an Ivy league grad and you will get something. Not to mention that even if you break into IB from IU you alway have the stigma in your PE/HF interviews and the IU guy when you are going against all the other top schools. I highly doubt, based on my experience reviewing fund's team sections and not really seeing IU people (granted not the best sample), that IU has the same career trajectory as Duke, on an aggregate and especially a percentage basis. For better or worse, the world if IB and even more so PE/HF is one of the most snobby industries that exist.

So yes, if you have a crystal ball and everything will work out perfectly, IU has a very valid argument; however, no one can predicate the future. The goal should be to have the most amount of doors open as possible and as I said before you can't even compare Duke to IU under those circumstances.

 

OP, is 80K worth the difference of attending a low-ranked public school vs. a high-ranked private one? IMO 80K is not that much considering how different these two schools are.

I am just afraid that you will spend the rest of your life telling others that you went to IU "but also got accepted to Duke".

Elllo:
Go to kelley and transfer to a better target.

So you'd rather go to a relative non-target (and risk being unable to transfer) instead of Duke, which places fantastically, and then transfer to a "better" target? .....................

 

If you think you can get into the IB Workshop at Kelley, then you are set. Lots of Moelis/Lazard/BAML/BarCap/GS/JP placements--MS/CS/C on occasion due to a lack of alumni at those firms. In-state tuition is also a huge, huge bonus. Otherwise, pick Duke...though I'd still take UMich Ross over Duke. They get crazy placement (anecdotal).

 

Hahaha I am definitely well aware of the fun at IU! I have been to Bloomington with friends on several occasions and stayed overnight in someone's dorm. It was crazy to say the least, though I shouldn't have a problem being more disciplined if I go there!

 

rufiolove, showing profiles of random Associates at PE firms doesn't really strengthen your point since everyone knows that you can get into Finance from Indiana if you're a superstar which all of those Indiana grads were. However, Duke is just on a different level in terms of recruitment as there are far more banks recruiting on campus for a smaller pool of students.

Kelley has a graduating class of about 1,200 students each year and you're saying 30-40 kids gets IBD jobs? At Duke, there will be 300 kids AT MOST vying for banking jobs and about 80-100 kids get at least one offer. Some self-select away to management consulting (which probably doesn't recruit at Indiana at all) which decreases the competition even more.

If this was Michigan Ross vs. Duke with a 80K delta, I would advise the OP to go to Michigan. Kelley is just not on the same level.

 
eldiablo4857:
rufiolove, showing profiles of random Associates at PE firms doesn't really strengthen your point since everyone knows that you can get into Finance from Indiana if you're a superstar which all of those Indiana grads were. However, Duke is just on a different level in terms of recruitment as there are far more banks recruiting on campus for a smaller pool of students.

Kelley has a graduating class of about 1,200 students each year and you're saying 30-40 kids gets IBD jobs? At Duke, there will be 300 kids AT MOST vying for banking jobs and about 80-100 kids get at least one offer. Some self-select away to management consulting (which probably doesn't recruit at Indiana at all) which decreases the competition even more.

If this was Michigan Ross vs. Duke with a 80K delta, I would advise the OP to go to Michigan. Kelley is just not on the same level.

I don't really know where to begin addressing the flaws in your logic so I guess I'll just start with the top and work my way down:

eldiablo4857:
rufiolove, showing profiles of random Associates at PE firms doesn't really strengthen your point since everyone knows that you can get into Finance from Indiana if you're a superstar which all of those Indiana grads were.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here...Please direct me to the profile of someone who works for a top buy side firm who isn't a rockstar? If you haven't gone through the recruiting process for these types of positions, you shouldn't even bother commenting, because everyone who is able to get through the interview processes at these types of firms would have been able to do it regardless of their school. Sure, do some firms have schools that they "like to hire from." Absolutely. But they are in the business of making money and as such they hire the best person for the job. Your resume gets you the interview, but that's it. They are going to hire the best person to fill that role. You are delusional if you think that Kelley kids aren't some of the best prepared candidates for many of these jobs. The IB Workshop is largely to thank for this. Do you think kids would get offers for these types of firms from Duke if they aren't rockstars?

So I guess your takeaway is "Anyone can get into Finance from Indiana if you're a rockstar, but if you aren't a rockstar, you can get in from Duke because more Duke grads are hired than Indiana grads..." That doesn't make sense, logically.

eldiablo4857:
Kelley has a graduating class of about 1,200 students each year and you're saying 30-40 kids gets IBD jobs? At Duke, there will be 300 kids AT MOST vying for banking jobs and about 80-100 kids get at least one offer. Some self-select away to management consulting (which probably doesn't recruit at Indiana at all) which decreases the competition even more.

You are trying to argue placing 30-40 kids from 1,200 students annually equates to worse odds for Kelley than placing 80-100 kids from Duke based on some arbitrary "300 AT MOST" number. This is further reduced by the fact that many self-select away from banking. This logic does not take into account the quality of each candidate. Additionally, you conveniently note that some students self-select away at one university but don't reason that many self select or are not even competitive to begin with at the other university. This negates the premise of your argument.

One could easily argue that it is tougher to break in from small pond packed with many competitive fish, even when there are more slots available than it is from a much larger pond packed with less competitive fish.

I guess the root issue that constantly surfaces from all of these arguments is that everyone always love to point out how well one school places, but in the same breath they say that anyone who breaks in from a lesser school has to be "really good" in order to get into some selective program that places kids onto the street. Here's a thought... if you aren't good enough to get into a program that prepares you for breaking in... You probably aren't going to be more competitive by moving to another school with better recruiting.

 

Rufiolove:

You seem to know quite a few IU grads so I'd like to directly address you. Of the Kelley students, roughly how many do you think were part of the Workshop? What would you gauge the chances of a non-workshop member at? I am not trying to be pessimistic, but I do want to prepare for the [somewhat unlikely] event that I fail to get into the workshop, regardless of how diligently I study and network.

 
vlu21:
Rufiolove:

You seem to know quite a few IU grads so I'd like to directly address you. Of the Kelley students, roughly how many do you think were part of the Workshop? What would you gauge the chances of a non-workshop member at? I am not trying to be pessimistic, but I do want to prepare for the [somewhat unlikely] event that I fail to get into the workshop, regardless of how diligently I study and network.

Most of the kids I have seen and talked to were in the workshop, but if you are focused on banking already, you will likely have a huge leg up on other kids who don't know what they want to do. The fact that you are already on WSO as a high schooler bodes well at least from an interest perspective.

If you fail to get into the workshop, it will depend on how hard you network. Many kids from the IB Seminar still break into front office roles (something people who like to quote the 30-40 number fail to mention). If you include the placement from the seminar kids, the numbers are higher.

At the end of the day, though, if you are intent on breaking into banking and are smart enough, you can do it from either school, which gets back to my previous points. If you are worried about getting into the Workshop / Seminar at Kelley, you would have just as much, if not more trouble being competitive with students at Duke if you went there.

 

rufio, no one is saying that IU doesn't place a decent amount of kids. I'm not sure why you are getting so upset by the simple and logical argument that Duke is simply better. This is a logical discussion not an emotional one. Duke is on the same level academically as say a Dartmouth, Columbia, UChicago, etc. are you telling me kids should choose IU over them as well? Let's be serious here. For state schools, I'm sure IU does fine, but its no top tier target.

 
ke18sb:
rufio, no one is saying that IU doesn't place a decent amount of kids. I'm not sure why you are getting so upset by the simple and logical argument that Duke is simply better. This is a logical discussion not an emotional one. Duke is on the same level academically as say a Dartmouth, Columbia, UChicago, etc. are you telling me kids should choose IU over them as well? Let's be serious here. For state schools, I'm sure IU does fine, but its no top tier target.

I'm not emotional at all. I'm merely pointing out that your arguments are flawed... which they are. Duke is the better school, academically, but that doesn't mean that breaking into a front office role from Duke is easier than from Kelley.

If it were a complete certainty that going to Duke was the better choice in all cases, there wouldn't be any debate in this thread whatsoever. The fact that there is a debate, indicates that in certain circumstances, going to Kelley may be a more attractive option... one of those circumstances could be when you don't feel you can afford the additional cost to go to Duke.

If I were personally in this situation, I would probably go to Duke, but not because I feel it would be easier to break into banking from Duke than from Indiana.

 

Rufiolove,

I appreciate your input! Just out of curiosity, do you mind my asking why you would choose Duke over Indiana, considering how post-graduation opportunities for a high-caliber student are essentially the same?

 

Ok here you go. I just did the homework and found some actual data. I'm actually pretty blow away be these numbers. This just solidifies my points and if anything makes more even more sold on my opinion. Campus wide, not just econ majors, Duke's number 1 industry is Finance/Banking and its number 2 industry is consulting. For the years where data is available (2009-2012) the numbers rangre from 15.5-32% of the total class going into finance/banking and 12-19% going into consulting. That is pretty phenomenal placement. Also look at their top five employeers over the past several years. They consistently include GS, MS, BAML, with DB, Barclays and BCG transition in an out of the top five. Again, this is top employers for the entire school, not just econ/banking kids. There is no way IU comes close to matching these numbers.

http://studentaffairs.duke.edu/career/statistics-reports

 
 
rufiolove:
eldiablo4857:
A lot of top firms like BCG, McKinsey, Oliver Wyman, Deloitte, etc. don't even recruit at a place like Indiana. People on this site give undergrad biz schools besides Wharton way too much credit.

http://mycareer.deloitte.com/us/en/students/oncampus/indianauniversity

https://ucso.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/reportCenter/check/csjlisting.cfm?sche…

http://www.joinbain.com/apply-to-bain/bain-on-your-campus/school_welcom…

Do you just say things?

+1

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

My bad on Deloitte I ask but most Indiana grads at that firm work in the Accounting practice. I know Bain recruits there but that's an anomaly to the greater point I was making that the most elite financial/consulting firms don't consider Indiana a core school. If you want to work in the Chicago office of a BB or work at Robert W. Bair, then I'm sure Kelley is fine as long as you graduate at the top of your class. Duke will offer you a lot more opportunities to break in though.

Also, its actually easier to get a higher GPA at Duke due to grade inflation. Kelley is a self-selected population within Indiana that enrolls smarter students so it would be much easier IMHO to get a 3.5 at Duke instead of a 3.8 at Kelley.

 
peinvestor2012:
TheFix:
ke18sb:
Another note. I went to a big state school and had a lot of friends at private schools similar to Duke. The private schools were really grade inflated, per what I heard. Conversely, my school had a harsh curve and was very competitive. I can't speak to Duke or IU but I'd look into / ask someone before just saying the Duke will be harder because its the better school, while IU will be easier because its the lower ranked school. In fact it may be quite the opposite.

The reason for grade inflation is that the students are more motivated and more intelligent than your run-of-the-mill state school student.

I know people make this point a lot, but it's really not true in practice (unless we're talking engineering).

Indiana has a competitive grading system through Integrative Core (I-Core), which is taken Jr. year. Basically, a certain percentage of kids are allocated As, Bs, etc. That isn't the case throughout, but you do find several classes in Kelley that grade like that (i.e. A201).

Now, does Duke do the same?

If you do HONORS I-Core, the lowest grade is B-. Combined with being able to take certain classes at IUPUI, knowing to take MATH-K310 instead of ECON-E370, ability to take 2 classes pass fail at the London School of Economics, other study abroad opportunities....getting a high GPA shouldn’t be that much of a challenge if you plan accordingly.

 

If I may, aren't those statistics a little too broad in scope. For example, financial services covers a huge range of activities, of which investment banking takes up only a portion. In fact, couldn't kids who get into back office or middle office positions be counted in those numbers? The same goes for the statement that about the top five employers. Those could be employers of non front-office positions.

 

Yes, that is a very valid point - it's hard to actually get the data breakout on these things. But anecdotally, kids from Duke, a top 10 school, aren't lining up for back office jobs and quite frankly firms such as the above aren't filling the BO ranks from places such as Duke. Nonetheless it is a strong signal. If you look at IU's top its accounting and f500 companies. Again, you are correct in that these aren't all IB jobs, but I'd be willing to bet more are than not. Schools such as Duke get even better access to things such as S&T, ER, even PE analyst roles, which most schools don't. I remember comparing the job listings at UCLA/Berkeley to those of my private school friends at places like Duke/Penn etc. and it was crazy how much more of a variety, and better variety at that, the firms offered.

What you should really do is just call the career centers of the two schools and say you are trying to make a decision and try to actually get some better data.

 

I would tend to agree with you. It wouldn't make sense for Bulge Bracket firms to be ravenously picking up Duke grads for BO spots, nor is it realistic that Duke grads would be lining up for such gigs.

I hadn't thought of actually calling the career center. I will try that. I will also probably try to meet with the people personally when I visit the campus.

 

Look, both schools will place well into IB. Speaking from experience, there are plenty of IU kids on the street, and naturally there are many from Duke as well. Knock out your grades and ECs at either school and you'll be a shoe-in for an analyst slot.

That said, if you're going the finance route, the extra $80k in debt probably won't be as big of a burden. In your situation, I would probably go the Duke route; however, you know your circumstances better than anyone. If you're seriously concerned about your ability to pay for your education, you'll be far happier at IU, which will affect your academic performance and, by proxy, your placement.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

I'd choose Duke.

But a lot of this also comes down to your confidence in your own academic abilities. It's going to be a lot harder to set yourself apart at Duke than at Kelley. You'll probably be better off with a 3.8 at Kelley + IB workshop than with a 3.5 at Duke, all else equal.

 

Another note. I went to a big state school and had a lot of friends at private schools similar to Duke. The private schools were really grade inflated, per what I heard. Conversely, my school had a harsh curve and was very competitive. I can't speak to Duke or IU but I'd look into / ask someone before just saying the Duke will be harder because its the better school, while IU will be easier because its the lower ranked school. In fact it may be quite the opposite.

 
ke18sb:
Another note. I went to a big state school and had a lot of friends at private schools similar to Duke. The private schools were really grade inflated, per what I heard. Conversely, my school had a harsh curve and was very competitive. I can't speak to Duke or IU but I'd look into / ask someone before just saying the Duke will be harder because its the better school, while IU will be easier because its the lower ranked school. In fact it may be quite the opposite.

The reason for grade inflation is that the students are more motivated and more intelligent than your run-of-the-mill state school student.

I know people make this point a lot, but it's really not true in practice (unless we're talking engineering).

 
TheFix:
ke18sb:
Another note. I went to a big state school and had a lot of friends at private schools similar to Duke. The private schools were really grade inflated, per what I heard. Conversely, my school had a harsh curve and was very competitive. I can't speak to Duke or IU but I'd look into / ask someone before just saying the Duke will be harder because its the better school, while IU will be easier because its the lower ranked school. In fact it may be quite the opposite.

The reason for grade inflation is that the students are more motivated and more intelligent than your run-of-the-mill state school student.

I know people make this point a lot, but it's really not true in practice (unless we're talking engineering).

Indiana has a competitive grading system through Integrative Core (I-Core), which is taken Jr. year. Basically, a certain percentage of kids are allocated As, Bs, etc. That isn't the case throughout, but you do find several classes in Kelley that grade like that (i.e. A201).

Now, does Duke do the same?

 
TheFix:

The reason for grade inflation is that the students are more motivated and more intelligent than your run-of-the-mill state school student.

I know people make this point a lot, but it's really not true in practice (unless we're talking engineering).

Well this is just complete nonsense. Berkeley and UCLA kids, as I'm sure UVA and UM and a select few more, intellectually on par with kids from places such as Duke, ivies etc. As you go down the state school food chain, there main be a point to be made about differences in intelligence but its irrelevant as GPAs are relative. These state schools simply have forced curves. Whereas many private schools do not, especially at the top. Simple as that. The stuff people say on this board is so bizarre sometimes.

 

You either love what Duke has to offer or just stay at Indiana or take the enormous risk of not getting a job. GS/MS/JPM and MBB will always have tons of slots for Duke Grads while some of them may not even recruit at IU in tough years. OP if I had to choose a school I would take Duke even over lower tier ivies like Cornell, Penn barring Wharton, or even Columbia. IU is not even close to Duke.

 

DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE DUKE

You will forever regret giving up Duke, so don't do it...you only get one shot at college, and the college you attend will stick with you for life. You might think 80k is a lot now, but a Duke degree will pay that off several times over throughout your life.

 

taking into account the cost difference, i would still go to Duke over Kelley whether you are interested in banking or not.

i think Kelley punches way above its weight and student quality is roughly equivalent to the student population of a top 20 school. if you are part of the IB workshop, your banking prospects are equivalent to a top 5-10 nationwide.

with that said these are the reasons why i would choose Duke:

1) Kelley is unfortunately attached to Indiana University which tarnishes the brand value. this is not an insignificant drawback. not everyone knows that student quality is dramatically different between the two. 2) admission into the IB workshop is NOT guaranteed. it's a very competitive program. 3) i agree with eldiablo - getting a respectable GPA at Duke is much easier than an elite GPA at Kelley. this matters and there are plenty of Ivy League caliber students (scholarship kids, etc.) at Kelley who will get those 3.8s/3.9s. you are competing with them for those GPAs. 4) if you change your mind on banking, you are definitely worse off at Kelley than at Duke. no debate about this. 5) you never know what will happen in the future. having a strong brand like Duke is a safer position to be in.

Duke is probably the cut-off point for the above analysis - anything below and i would say go to Kelley.

 

The fact that the relative merits of two universities that couldn't be more different on paper has devolved into a discussion of grade inflation should inform you that both schools will get you where you want to be. That said, I would still choose Duke.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

1) You have a higher likelihood of breaking into IB from Duke

2) You have a higher likelihood of getting into a better group at whatever bank you end up at if you go to Duke

3) The network you get at Duke will follow you the rest of your life. The frat buddy that you did keg stands with could end up being a CEO that throws you business 20 years down the line. Think long term. Also, there are way more Duke alumni to network with. I guarantee that the same 25 Kelly alumni get linkedin-stalked and email spammed by like 400 current students a week.

4) If you don't get IB or change your mind about your career track, Duke offers more opportunities for other careers.

5) It won't necessarily be that much easier to get good grades at Kelley and other kids will have 3.9-4.0's too who will be competing with you. Plenty of kids will be going to Kelley with the same intentions as you.

6) You don't have to major in business if you go to Duke, which imo is a pretty boring subject to study in college. Not to rip on other people's majors, and I'm biased, but Econ is way more interesting than learning the differences between GAAP and IFRS or learning the "5 leadership styles" or whatever. Leave that for an MBA. You learn everything in IB on the job anyway; English majors can go through the training program and be just as competent as business majors. No reason to spend college on a pre-professional major if you don't have to.

7) I hate this but the finance industry is unfortunately filled with prestige-obsessed people who think that their legacy admission to an Ivy means that they're better than a similar-IQ kid whose parents couldn't afford SAT tutoring, private K-12 and a volunteer trip to Uganda to talk about in an admissions essay. WSO is gonna hate me for saying this but certain people in this industry do look at you differently if you didn't go to a top school and that has got to be incredibly frustrating, especially when you know that you're just as competent, if not more. I drank once with this dude who broke in to the industry from either Kelley or Arizona or something and he was super insecure about it when around me even though I didn't care at all. He kept randomly bringing up how he's better at his job than the target people around him and how he worked twice as hard to break in, etc. You don't want to have to constantly be proving yourself to school snobs or constantly be saying "—BUT I got into Duke too."

8) Some PE firms do take your undergraduate institution into account.

9) This is less obvious but, as a middle class kid, the exposure you'll get at Duke to northeast preppy WASP old money culture will help you better understand the personality of a lot of your peers once you're in the banking world.

If you want to do law school though, it might make sense to choose based on finances, since law school costs a ton. Also, law schools care way more about GPA and LSAT than they do about ugrad institution so you wouldn't be at a huge disadvantage going to Kelley. That said, going to law school is a terrible decision anyway.

Go to Duke. I know $80k in debt sounds like a lot, but it's nothing in the larger picture of your career if you're going down a finance track. I 100% guarantee you will regret it later on if you don't take Duke. Don't listen to the kids in this thread that are retrospectively trying to justify their past choices.

 

My brother went to Duke - Now is a VP at a well know MM PE shop. My VP went to Kelly - Now is a VP at a well known VC shop.

I'm in the Midwest, there are plenty of IU people here in good jobs. I'm an east coast person and did undergrad at a NC school so I'm a lil biased to Duke. However, I've gota say I love the 4+1 Kelly undergrad + MBA.

"If you want to succeed in this life, you need to understand that duty comes before rights and that responsibility precedes opportunity."
 

Duke. No Question.

Make the investment in your future. IU is a great school that does suprisingly well on Wall Street. You are still at risk that you do not make it into the IB seminar. If you do not, placement falls off considerably.

Duke is a top 10 undergrad institution that places well onto the street and with consulting firms. Furthermore, if you decide you do not want to do banking (which you should consider given your age) Duke will present many more options to do something else and will stick with you as a differentiator over your entire career.

Only negative is if you want to be a frat star (which you should given your age) Duke doesn't have the scene IU does.

 

This is fucking annoying so I called a buddy who works at JPM and who went to Indiana. I'm someone who also doesn't "believe the hype" around Indiana, but this guy is a baller and said:

"The banking workshop at Indiana places on par with any other school. The overall caliber of students at Indiana is definitely not as high as other targets. Most kids there are drunken morons who don't even know what investment banking is. But the rockstars at Indiana are well sought after. Every large bank recruits at Indiana, and it is a now a new target probably because of the workshop alone. Kids outside the workshop will have a much more difficult time."

He also went on to talk about how much hotter the girls are.

Both schools are fine if you're a smart kid. Now shut the fuck up.

 
Joshua93:
This is fucking annoying so I called a buddy who works at JPM and who went to Indiana. I'm someone who also doesn't "believe the hype" around Indiana, but this guy is a baller and said:

"The banking workshop at Indiana places on par with any other school. The overall caliber of students at Indiana is definitely not as high as other targets. Most kids there are drunken morons who don't even know what investment banking is. But the rockstars at Indiana are well sought after. Every large bank recruits at Indiana, and it is a now a new target probably because of the workshop alone. Kids outside the workshop will have a much more difficult time."

He also went on to talk about how much hotter the girls are.

Both schools are fine if you're a smart kid. Now shut the fuck up.

By now, I think I have been able to realize that a similar quantity and quality of opportunities are available right after undergrad, both at Duke or the Workshop(if I can get in.)

And I apologize that my thread generated some heated slandering; it was not my intention to do so. I was just trying to do some scouting. Thanks to all who provided input!

 

By the way.... Joshua93, would you mind putting me in touch with your buddy? I'd love to ask him some questions about the IBanking Workshop. It's been difficult trying to find detailed and reliable information.

 

Guys, its like this: imagine if a dude's been courting a girl for like 4 months and taking her on nice dates and finally she puts out and sleeps with him. Now, lets say there's guy #2 who meets this same chick out at a club 2 days later and bangs her back at his place that night.

Guy #1 is the equivalent of a Kelley Workshop person who gets a banking job and Guy #2 is someone who goes to Duke if the example of a girl above actually constituted an investment banking offer.

All Duke juniors/seniors have to do is get a 3.5 in some grade inflated liberal arts classes, show up for one of the 50 banking/consulting info sessions on campus, drop their resume with one click on an online portal, and bam they have like 10 interviews lined up. Even if they get piss drunk before 5 of them because its basketball season, an average Duke junior will end up getting 2-3 I-banking offers to choose from.

Now Kelley juniors/seniors on the other hand have to first off network just to get into some glossy Workshop to even have a shot at breaking into their dream career. Then, these students have to join like 2 Business fraternities and network with dozens of Kelley alums in banks in Chicago just to get an interview. The Kelley Workshop kids will put in all this effort just to get placed in a mid-tier bank or consulting firm, most likely in Chicago.

Which path would you rather take? They both may yield a similar result but why not choose the road with less obstacles.

 
eldiablo4857:
Guys, its like this: imagine if a dude's been courting a girl for like 4 months and taking her on nice dates and finally she puts out and sleeps with him. Now, lets say there's guy #2 who meets this same chick out at a club 2 days later and bangs her back at his place that night.

Guy #1 is the equivalent of a Kelley Workshop person who gets a banking job and Guy #2 is someone who goes to Duke if the example of a girl above actually constituted an investment banking offer.

So basically what you're saying in this scenario is Duke get's Kelley's sloppy seconds?

Seriously, you are terrrrrrrrrible at this. Every attempt at redemption is hysterically thwarted... This made my day...

[quote=Dirk Dirkenson]Shut up already. Your mindless, reflexive responses to any critical thought on this are tedious. You're also probably a woman, given the name and "xoxo" signoff, so maybe the lack of judgment is to be expected.[/quote]
 
Louboutins and Leverage:
eldiablo4857:
Guys, its like this: imagine if a dude's been courting a girl for like 4 months and taking her on nice dates and finally she puts out and sleeps with him. Now, lets say there's guy #2 who meets this same chick out at a club 2 days later and bangs her back at his place that night.

Guy #1 is the equivalent of a Kelley Workshop person who gets a banking job and Guy #2 is someone who goes to Duke if the example of a girl above actually constituted an investment banking offer.

So basically what you're saying in this scenario is Duke get's Kelley's sloppy seconds?

Seriously, you are terrrrrrrrrible at this. Every attempt at redemption is hysterically thwarted... This made my day...

Well, he is right about the fact that the average Duke student has far more options than the average IU student.

 
eldiablo4857:
All Duke juniors/seniors have to do is get a 3.5 in some grade inflated liberal arts classes, show up for one of the 50 banking/consulting info sessions on campus, drop their resume with one click on an online portal, and bam they have like 10 interviews lined up. Even if they get piss drunk before 5 of them because its basketball season, an average Duke junior will end up getting 2-3 I-banking offers to choose from.

Now Kelley juniors/seniors on the other hand have to first off network just to get into some glossy Workshop to even have a shot at breaking into their dream career. Then, these students have to join like 2 Business fraternities and network with dozens of Kelley alums in banks in Chicago just to get an interview. The Kelley Workshop kids will put in all this effort just to get placed in a mid-tier bank or consulting firm, most likely in Chicago.

Please stop. The secondhand embarrassment is too much for me to bear. Try peddling this drivel to the IBW alum at GS FIG/MS M&A. Also pretty sure one of the workshop guys secured McKinsey PE after his SA stint.

While overall IB placement is higher at Duke, IBW workshop kids easily pull just as many BB/elite boutique interviews.They are not in business fraternities. They network as much as I would expect anyone who wanted to break into banking would network. I work at a BB and the IBW SAs have a great reputation for knowing their shit, which is all that matters in the end.

 
eldiablo4857:
Guys, its like this: imagine if a dude's been courting a girl for like 4 months and taking her on nice dates and finally she puts out and sleeps with him. Now, lets say there's guy #2 who meets this same chick out at a club 2 days later and bangs her back at his place that night.

Guy #1 is the equivalent of a Kelley Workshop person who gets a banking job and Guy #2 is someone who goes to Duke if the example of a girl above actually constituted an investment banking offer.

Such a good analogy. Although you still do have to network as a Duke guy, just not nearly as much.

eldiablo4857:
All Duke juniors/seniors have to do is get a 3.5 in some grade inflated liberal arts classes, show up for one of the 50 banking/consulting info sessions on campus, drop their resume with one click on an online portal, and bam they have like 10 interviews lined up. Even if they get piss drunk before 5 of them because its basketball season, an average Duke junior will end up getting 2-3 I-banking offers to choose from.

Now Kelley juniors/seniors on the other hand have to first off network just to get into some glossy Workshop to even have a shot at breaking into their dream career. Then, these students have to join like 2 Business fraternities and network with dozens of Kelley alums in banks in Chicago just to get an interview. The Kelley Workshop kids will put in all this effort just to get placed in a mid-tier bank or consulting firm, most likely in Chicago.

Which path would you rather take? They both may yield a similar result but why not choose the road with less obstacles.

It's definitely not as easy as you say for a Duke guy to get into banking. Most who break in will have to do a certain amount of networking and will have to put a lot of effort into getting good grades, joining the right clubs etc. No way they can drink before interviews and get multiple offers. Still, I totally agree with the premise of your post. While there is room for error for the Duke kid although he might need to work pretty hard, there is no room for error for the Kelley kid and if you make a mistake along the way, you might not be able to get into the firm you want.

 
eldiablo4857:
Guys, its like this: imagine if a dude's been courting a girl for like 4 months and taking her on nice dates and finally she puts out and sleeps with him. Now, lets say there's guy #2 who meets this same chick out at a club 2 days later and bangs her back at his place that night.

Guy #1 is the equivalent of a Kelley Workshop person who gets a banking job and Guy #2 is someone who goes to Duke if the example of a girl above actually constituted an investment banking offer.

All Duke juniors/seniors have to do is get a 3.5 in some grade inflated liberal arts classes, show up for one of the 50 banking/consulting info sessions on campus, drop their resume with one click on an online portal, and bam they have like 10 interviews lined up. Even if they get piss drunk before 5 of them because its basketball season, an average Duke junior will end up getting 2-3 I-banking offers to choose from.

Now Kelley juniors/seniors on the other hand have to first off network just to get into some glossy Workshop to even have a shot at breaking into their dream career. Then, these students have to join like 2 Business fraternities and network with dozens of Kelley alums in banks in Chicago just to get an interview. The Kelley Workshop kids will put in all this effort just to get placed in a mid-tier bank or consulting firm, most likely in Chicago.

Which path would you rather take? They both may yield a similar result but why not choose the road with less obstacles.

i think Duke is the better option here but i know for a fact that many Duke kids who try to get banking jobs end up with nothing so it's not fair to mislead a prospective student like this.

haha you act like investment banks are lined up waiting to lick every Duke student's balls...this is insane. like any other school, Duke kids get rejected in large numbers and many end up with pretty mediocre jobs they didn't want. be honest in your recommendations.

 

Think of it this way...

Before there was the IB program at Kelley (or whatever it's called), these same kids probably would have gotten those IB jobs ANYWAY. But few people would have known because they're not all part of the same organization that people like us and people like OP can Google and scout out before making college decisions. Now that there is the IB program, sure, placement has gone up, but for the most part it's still those same kids getting the jobs.

In the end, it's a PR stunt of sorts. The IB program serves to confirm that IB recruiting exists (and makes you think there MUST be tons of kids not in the program who get into IB), when in fact that program already consists of the majority of kids who would end up in IB.

You guys are underestimating the difficulty of getting into IB from Kelley vs. from Duke, where everyone has a great shot at IB.

Duke all the way. Please don't think short-term and be like "Well, with $80K I can buy a sweet-ass car and drive it during college and even splurge now and then." No. Invest that $80K in a Duke degree and you won't regret it.

 

Haha, funny how everyone assumes this kid will be a rockstar at Indiana. Did you forget the type of kid you were at 18 years old? I'd say that there are VERY few kids at 18 who have goals that remain consistent until their Junior year in college. He could meet a girl who crushes his heart, pick up a drug addiction, start hanging out with the wrong crowd, the list of distractions can go on and on. Look kid, if I were you I'd pick Duke; in the event that you totally fuck up your college life Duke will be a brand that you will carry your entire life and say you get shitty grades you can still network yourself into a BB. Your success at Indiana depends on getting into this 'workshop', but who knows what'll happen. I'd say pick the more certain thing and go with Duke.

 

Just an update: I just discovered that I would be the recipient of a full ride scholarship to IU. That definitely causes me to lean more towards Kelley now. Thoughts?

 

While I was previously 100% Duke, this is cause for deeper thought. Maybe you can call Duke and try to get them to offer something. I know for grad school people do this. If not the decision becomes much more complicated. If your family was well off and it the tuition didn't really matter than maybe still Duke. If the tuition does matter and/or you are using loans than that may tilt me to IU.

 
ricottacheese:
IU routinely places top candidates in BX M&A, GS TMT/FIG, MS M&A and other top groups. Go there, kick ass and network your butt off from day 1, and get the great party experience while still getting a job with a top group.

You have anything to back this up? I know IU places ridiculously well at Citigroup/BAML/Moelis. The only kid from IU that has gone to BX M&A that I'm aware of won the Ira Sohn Investment Competition, so I'd say he's a bit of an outlier... Haven't seen or heard of IU doing particularly well at GS/MS either.

 

Stop postulating and just look at the placements. Class of '14 and '13, respectively (only workshop people). No mention of groups or if its IBD or something else. Pretty good BB representation from some firms but more boutique. No BX, MS.

Blaird: 4, 1 BAML: 5, 2 Molis: 1, 2 William Blair: 3, 3 JPM: 3 Jeffries: 2 Barclays: 2, 1 HL: 1 GS: 3, 2 HSBC: 1, 2 Perella Weinberg: 2, 1 Greenhill: 1 Lazard: 1, 3 Citi: 1, 1 Suntrust: 1, 2 Sandler O'Neill:1, 1 Union Square: 0, 1 BMO: 0, 3 Macquarie: 0, 1 Grosvenor: 0, 1 CS: 0, 2 Piper Jaffray: 0, 1 Lincoln International: 0, 3 Duff and Phelps: 0, 1 None: 2

http://kelley.iu.edu/IBN/Members/memberViewForm_1.cfm?gradYear=2014&aff…

 

Sint dolores explicabo velit est quasi sed. Minima eos maiores quis adipisci numquam deleniti totam. Ut voluptatibus qui earum ea omnis quibusdam qui. Laboriosam aut quasi eos doloremque earum velit. Ipsa qui cumque et inventore.

Et amet rem doloremque adipisci quia corrupti. Dicta illum quod ducimus deserunt maxime. Doloribus numquam amet est corporis nostrum.

Quibusdam at voluptatibus ullam quasi sunt. Nesciunt praesentium dolores repudiandae aliquid voluptatem consectetur. Sit veniam nihil id alias sequi eos omnis.

 

Corporis necessitatibus aut sint iure. Illum enim qui dolores ipsum illo quia.

Dolores nam vitae cum ipsum hic sit recusandae est. Dolores provident nihil sunt velit quis. Et aliquid eos nihil at inventore qui. Assumenda totam quis quis ullam. Exercitationem eligendi id recusandae.

Optio aut recusandae eveniet illo quis beatae quia quia. Voluptate vero sunt quas fuga. Similique praesentium consequatur suscipit unde expedita. Ea sapiente esse tempora alias impedit esse in.

 

At reprehenderit laboriosam beatae sint et ut sit. Et nisi delectus quia laboriosam. Rerum adipisci nisi deserunt dolor asperiores dolore neque. Illo debitis alias aut expedita. Occaecati non est eos dolores.

Eveniet accusantium dolor eos mollitia beatae enim eius. Cupiditate quisquam possimus dolor minima iste. Ea assumenda voluptas enim. Sit eius sed hic sint. Quia quod vel saepe molestias consequatur sint quidem. Enim placeat debitis consequatur quia quidem.

Quia odio illo corrupti eum reprehenderit ab. Error fugiat explicabo excepturi fugit consequatur voluptatem accusamus. Qui consequuntur earum et iusto quis labore hic.

Non qui ipsam consequatur possimus magnam. Sapiente cum reprehenderit quibusdam veniam vitae deleniti. Fuga nam modi hic dolor. Suscipit ut labore ea modi consequatur fugit ab.

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”